Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, welcome back from House of Human Services this afternoon. We are picking up on S-one 198, an act relating to the regulation of tobacco products and tobacco substitutes. And we have with us Wendy Knight from the Department of Lottery. Welcome.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Good afternoon. Thanks for having me. I'm Wendy Knight. I'm the Commissioner of the Department of Liquor and Lottery.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And since this is the first time that you've been here, we'd like to do introductions so you know

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: to Thank you.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Whom you're

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm Theresa Wood. I'm from Waterbury, I also serve Bolton, Dual Score, and Huntington. I'm Rey Garofano. I live in Essex, and I also serve Essex Junction.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Hi there. I'm Esme Cole. I represent Hartford.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Zon Eastes. Yeah. I live in Guilford and also represent Vernon. Great. Doug Bishop, and I'm one of.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Great. Hi. Good afternoon. Eric Maguire. I represent Brooklyn City.

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Good afternoon, I'm Daniel Noyes, I represent Wilkett, Hyde Park, Johnson and Belvedere.

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: My name is Brenda Steady Garof, interning for Representative Noyes.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Oh, congratulations.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Congratulations.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Congratulations.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: And Legis Council. Jen Carter. We've met. Hi, Jill. Yes. Brenda? Nice to meet you all. Quick, brief introduction. I've been the commissioner of this department for five years, five years this month, actually. I used to be the governor's first tourism and marketing commissioner. That's how Zon and I met, in 2017 to 'nineteen. I actually have a health care background. So long ago, many moons ago, I was a strategic communications consultant, and I worked with a lot of trade organizations in DC, health insurance, pharma. Didn't work on big tobacco, so I was also the acting executive director of Cigna Healthcare of Northern New England. And I've wrote some health care books, so a health care background. Wanted to talk today about the current regulatory framework for tobacco regulation. I think that would be helpful if I could just walk you through that. So right now, the tax department is responsible for the licenses for wholesale tobacco. And the Department of Liquor and Lottery, we give the retailers the licenses. So there's a little bit of a disjointed there. So DLL, this really kind of stymies our ability to do the enforcement and compliance across the whole supply chain. Because with the tax department, there is no fee. And their data from the tax department becomes privileged tax information. So we don't even actually know who is a wholesale license. This bill, as we know, transfers that responsibility, the regulatory responsibility, from the tax department to DLL. And that's something that we had actually suggested in the fall when we were working on this, that we take over the wholesale licensing. In terms of tobacco license, retailers must hold a tobacco license and then a tobacco substitute endorsement in order to sell those products. We have seven eighty tobacco licenses, and about five twenty of those establishments also hold the tobacco substitute endorsement. Is there a separate fee for the endorsement now? Correct, yes. So right now, we have the it's not a separate fee. I'm gonna get to that in a minute. There is a fee for a tobacco endorsement, and that's it's currently $50 The way the structure is, and this is what has been referred to as coupling, there is really no coupling. And let me explain that to you. The current statute directs the department to not assess an application fee for the tobacco license when they're applying for a liquor license. That's why people think that that's coupled. Right? So if this bill would separate those, and so you would have all tobacco licensees would need to apply for the fee, and the fee is $150 in this bill. It goes from $100, the retail fee, to $150 and that is basically inflation adjusted. And then the fee for the tobacco endorsement would go from 50 to 75.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: How long has it been since those fees have been adjusted?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: I don't know. I don't know. I think that there's been some conversation over the years when we go into Senate Economic Development, they talk about the liquor license fees. I think there's been some really good work. We really appreciate the work that had gone into the bill. We've been working with the AG's office and the tax department regularly, I would say, since the fall, before the bill was even drafted. And we really appreciate that We appreciate the reasonableness that went into looking at the fees. And so what we have here in this bill are the retail fees are just basically inflation adjusted. Historic I think when the bill was first introduced, they were significantly higher. And so that was not something that the department could support. Our retailers are we hear that all the time, that the businesses are struggling, and so we would not be able to support. And we've been clear about that. The whole piece.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Just I guess I'm curious. And so if they're inflation adjusted, then we would have to know from whence they started and how many years it's been since they've been adjusted in order to use the inflationary

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Well, it's not set that way. It's just set I mean, it's it's an equivalent of an inflation adjusted. They they're they're going from, like I said, January to 01/1950, '50 to '75. We are in agreement with those increases. I think the AG's office came up with someone now.

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: I think it was the joint fiscal office that estimated on what an inflationary increase would be.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Increase would be. Okay. I'm just suggesting this because when this bill will go to ways and means, because it has fee, you might want to have background information about when was the last increase in the fee. Thank you. I'm sure they're going ask that. I'm sure it probably predated you. It did.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: They haven't gone up since I've been there in five years. So the compliance checks in the administrative penalty zone, I describe a little bit how that's done now. So by statute, we are responsible for conducting compliance tests of our tobacco licensees to ensure that they're not being sold to minors. So in 2025, we conducted six seventy nine compliance checks, and there were fifty nine failures. So about eight point six percent failure rate.

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Couldn't you

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: say those numbers again? Yep. In 2025, we conducted six seventy nine tobacco compliance checks, and we had 59 failures, meaning 59 failed. Right? They sold to minors. And that's eight point six eight eight point six percent failure rate. So the board of liquor and lottery has the authority to, issue administrative fees and take administrative action. And that's for the licensee, the holder of a license. We regulate the licensees. There's another, section in title seven that talks about the civil penalty, and that is to an individual. And so when a civil penalty is assessed, it's handled much like a traffic violation, and it's referred to the judicial bureau. It's not the Board of Liquor and Lottery. So the compliance and enforcement right now for the online tobacco is an investigator gets on a computer, searches a web browser, buy tobacco online or something similar, they find websites they attempt to purchase. If they put in Vermont as a destination, it's supposed to deny the order. There's no law enforcement investigation needed for that. Right? So if the site refuses the they're supposed to refuse the order. If it's completed, then those are referred to the attorney general's office. In 2025, we had a 100 and we did a 119 online tobacco compliance checks. 29 of those were violations. That's a twenty four percent. No. So it's twenty four percent failure rate. This year, 2026, to date, we've done 600 and no. Sorry. 66 online compliance checks, and five of those we were referred to the attorney general's office. So that this year is a seven point five two percent failure rate. So key provisions of this bill. I mentioned it provides the wholesale license regulatory framework all resides with DLL. And so that makes sense. It also it's an annual fee. It's $12.45 dollars is what's in there, and that's the fee that is the equivalent for the liquor wholesaler. Deceptive vices, we strongly support the prohibition of these devices. Codifying administrative penalties, this is where in the bill we've outlined that there are minimum administrative penalties and then mandatory license suspensions for subsequent violations. And those fees are pretty hefty, and we felt it was important that if licensees of businesses are not abiding by the law, that they should be subject to higher penalties. As opposed to the license fee, as I mentioned, we wouldn't support a higher license fee. If you want to operate a business, let's make it a little easier to do that in Vermont. And I already mentioned the increase in fees. So we went from I'm sorry, not 100, 110 for the tobacco license to 150. And then for the substitute endorsement, we went from 50 to 75 in this bill.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Go ahead, Representative Bishop.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: You were, a moment ago, talking about the civil penalties, they're not insignificant, 1,000 for a second violation climbing up to $5,000 civil penalty, It looks like if I'm reading that correctly.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Are we talking about the administrative penalties or the civil penal? Because the department, issues administrative penalties. The board of liquor and lottery, we do, administrative penalties.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: This is in section 1,007, I think it's that, Pete. The version I have that's on page nine, but I'm not sure. Yeah. Starting there. Here. Here? Yep. And ultimately, it moves on to if there's a second violation, a thousand dollar civil penalty. I'm just curious. There's a language issue here that I'm just trying to figure out. As far as the age and person you use to attempt to make these buys, the language of the statute, don't think reads the way that probably practice that says that you're looking for 90% compliance for people who are between ages 17 and 20.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Representative Bishop, are you at the bottom of page nine, top of page 10? Is that Yes. Kind of section you're looking at?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Yeah. Okay. Thank you.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I'm just thinking, if that's the language, if that's who's used for these compliance checks, and that's who's used that fines may be imposed, the language between 17 and 20, it's probably not what we intended. That sounds like you're only using 18 and 19 year olds. Yeah. That the language is

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: You're at current language.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Yeah. Current language that most likely it's maybe meant to be 17, 18, 19 and 20 year olds who are used in the compliance checks. I just raised the issue. I don't know if you want to check with someone in your office, but

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: So so that you're saying this is the current this is the current language, and it's it's specifying that we're achieving 90% compliance for buyers who are between 17 and 20 years of age. And you're wondering why it's 17 and 20.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: And the way that it reads between 17 and 20. As if those are That's something

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: that is believing that that is only saying, I don't believe that's how you're utilizing it, but

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: It's only 18 Can and

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: discuss that with Ledge Council?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Oh, yeah.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Someone to try to get their way out of a civil fine if it's by parsing the language and way that I'm parsing it, that's all.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Somebody else is your dad. Yes.

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: We've discussed

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: that I think I think could be

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: clarified if there are concerns about how it's being implemented, but this is largely separate from any actual civil violation. This is really looking at 90

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Compliance, right.

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: Before the compliance checks, that's the part that's tied to the ages of the buffers.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I guess as I'm reading on in the next paragraph or section two, it says the section after a sale violation or during a compliance test conducted within six months, etcetera, these penalties then follow.

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: Right, but that's for sales to individuals 21 years of age. So it's really then, but to my understanding, the 17 to 20 years of age is tied to the aspirational goal of 90% compliance.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Okay. May I rely on my Paula friend? Yeah, sure. Ms. Tana Chobin is the director of legislative affairs for the department.

[Hannah Chauvin (Director of Legislative Affairs, Dept. of Liquor & Lottery)]: So we use modders that are between 8070% our compliance rights. You would not, I don't believe that you could get out of the penalty or violation by pleading anything about the age of the person to whom you're so.

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: I think Representative Bishop is concerned that saying between 17 and 20 really means only 18

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: and

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: 19. Yeah, yeah. And I think you could probably read it either way, which is not always the clearest drafting, but I thought perhaps the department had an interpretation that they were using consistently based on that language. It sounds like that in human 17 and 20 year olds.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Yes, it does. So

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: in markup, can discuss whether we should change that or not.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Thank you. Sorry for that stretch.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And that's okay. Go ahead, representative. Steady. Being an old lady and having a

[Rep. Brenda Steady (Member)]: lot of experience in working in different jobs, the sad thing about it is you might get an employee that's mad at you, will sell to a minor to get you in trouble, so you'll get the fine. Is there anything in here that says if they had an employee that did this, they did the route, they fired the employee, that they could get out of the penalty because it was kinda be yucky to put somebody out of business because they had an employee that might have been mad, an employee that wanted to sell something to a friend. And so is there anything in here that says if the store owner took the steps and reprimanded the employee and dismissed them, if they would still get the penalty?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: The way hate to see people put Yeah. The penalty I understand. So often. The way the penalties work in the department is it's the board of liquor and lottery has the authority to issue the penalties or to defer the penalties or not issue the penalties. I mean, that's

[Rep. Brenda Steady (Member)]: how it's that's how it's structured now. So so they can if they can prove that they handled the situation and they can get out of the well,

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: I I mean, they have an avoid

[Rep. Brenda Steady (Member)]: not in here, so there's no guarantee. So let's just put the small business owner.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Is that a business? So the way that again, if if we have a violation, licensees can always come before the board, and we have a board hearing. If they don't, it doesn't need to be in here because it's already the board of liquor and lottery already has the authority to do that. Okay. And it's not working. Have the authority to licensees can come in and say, I don't like that fine. Here's the reason why I shouldn't be lose my license. Exists. To pay the penalty. Correct.

[Rep. Brenda Steady (Member)]: And the phone recording hand that you just said. Okay, great. Yes. Thank you.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Okay. Thank you. I think you were I was running through my list. Thank you for being patient with me.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Hopefully, will you be following us up with any written testimony? Yes,

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: sure. Can do that. Status, the Yeah, I can turn this into something like that. It doesn't look like crayons and markers. Spend it your way. Thank you. You can do that. Yes. So the one thing I would A couple other things I would like to address, if I may, please, is I understand that there's been an amendment seeking to codify some of the reporting requirements that was worked on in house comp no. Okay. You're shaking your head no. Okay. Never mind. We won't talk about that. But back to my original thoughts. So I understand that there has been some testimony this morning requesting that an investigator position for DLL be put back into the bill. And I would like to speak to that a little bit, if I may, please. So the DLL position was we do our budgets in the fall. And that position clearly was not in our budget. So it's not in the governor's recommended budget. I don't think it's in the attorney general's budget either. Right? So that's how we handle positions and develop budgets. I also this does not need to be a law enforcement investigator position. And so what I have suggested to the attorney general's office is that they consider putting this position in their budget for the FY '28 session. Right? If they are the ones that are asking for this position, they should ask for it in their budget. It doesn't need to be an investigator. It doesn't need to be a law enforcement investigator. I'm not certain that AG's office currently has the resources to handle additional referrals. We have 14 law enforcement investigators. I believe they have one God bless you. One that's weird. One full time person that maybe spends 30% of their time on this. I think you also heard that the minority of purchasing of minors is online. Right? So you heard some testimony that 23% of users reported purchasing their products online versus 43% purchasing the vapes in a store.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: More purchasing it in the store. Sorry?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: More purchasing Correct. Correct. Which is

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: where your enforcement people come in.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Correct. Yeah. Well, we do both online and Alright. Yeah. And so the other point I would make is the funding mechanism really creates perverse incentives. You're funding this position with penalties, and I think you can understand that that's a real perverse incentive. And then I guess lastly, I would say that we would really appreciate the opportunity to see how this new regulatory framework works with the existing investigator resources, the existing referrals to the attorney general's office. It feels a little odd to me, as the appointing authority for a department that's responsible for putting budgets together, to have another agency asking for positions to go into my budget. Doesn't seem logical. I, as the appointing authority, have the discretion and, frankly, the expertise to work with the team to figure out what priorities of work we have and what positions I want to request in my budget. And again, I've suggested to the attorney general's office that if they are looking for additional resources, they should put this in their budget.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: With the let me ask a question about the sort of the shift from the tax department to DLL for the wholesale licenses. And I'm presuming that means oversight of of those organizations as well. So do you feel that you have sufficient resources within your current staffing to do the oversight and licensing of those, the enforcement, that's the word. Enforcement around those organizations. I have no idea how many wholesalers there are.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Well, we don't either because they're regulated by the tax department, licensed by the tax department. So the way our licensing works is we use an online licensing portal. So there's not an extra lift in terms of people say there's 30 or 20 wholesale licenses. That's not a significant lift. It actually will make it easier for the department to do compliance and enforcement by having us license the wholesalers. Right now, we again, we have no idea who are the licensed wholesalers, which makes it really problematic for us to ensure compliance and enforcement. When we have if we have the licensing of wholesalers, then we that's public information. All of our licensed establishments are public information. We then have that, and the investigators have that, and they can go into a store and easily identify which of the products are

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, I'm sorry. I don't think you're going to get any big pushback about that transition from tax department to DLL. And that makes total sense in terms of your ability to follow-up with enforcement activities and all of that kind of stuff. I guess so I understood you to say that you you know, because it's an online portal, you know, people will fill out. I'm presuming the tax department will notify people that that is shifting as of whatever the effective date of that shift. Yeah. A year from now. And then what I was less clear from you

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: about is whether you felt like you had sufficient staff for the enforcement activities that would be required as a result of that shift. Well, we're already doing the enforcement in a retail store. Right? So the the enforcement happens in the retail store, and then we can see the products that are there. And we can see that, oh, deceptive products are no longer allowed in the state. And so we can visually see the deceptive products. Right? We can now see because we have a list of the wholesalers that are licensed, we can go into a store and look at the products and look at the the the the list. You look at an invoice. Right? Where did you just like we do with liquor. We need to see the invoice for the products you have on the the shelf. We would do the same thing on the tobacco side. Now these are the licenses you

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: know, the wholesalers, let's see your invoice, and that's how we would do the compliance. It's just it's just like how we do it now. So so I I I'm maybe I'm not asking the question completely clearly. For instance, it's illegal for the wholesalers to be purchasing certain items online. Would you be doing any investigative work with regard to where the wholesalers are getting their product from? So as part of the online compliance, we would

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: be doing that, the online work that we do.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So are you telling me that you have sufficient staff to do that? This is my question. Yes. I'm telling you that we have sufficient staff to do the work Okay. That's contemplated

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: in this In this bill. This new regulatory structure.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes. And then I have a follow-up question around switching topics a little bit. There's been some discussion around, and I realize you're not the tax department, but in compliance, I'm presuming that when you go in and you look at tobacco and stuff like that, that you're looking at that tax stamp to make sure that there is such a thing on there so that there is evidence that tax is being collected. There's been testimony supporting something similar for vapes. I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about that.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Yeah, I believe that we testified that we were in support of a committee there was a study committee. They wanted to study it because they need to figure out there's only as I understand it, there's a manufacturer that makes the stamp for cartons of cigarettes, they need to figure out how to logistically if you imagine that this is one of those

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: a We've bunch So of

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: they have to figure out mechanically how to do that. Mhmm.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Is that being done in any other state that taxes?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. But we could follow-up with you on that. Again, I would again, I I I think the tax department had advocated for a study, and they had requested that the attorney general's office lead that study, not the tax department support that.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Representative Maguire?

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: Yeah, thank you. The same thing, though, that's also going to be I want to put that on like Zon and the other products, right?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: You know, in all honesty, that's a part of this bill that I've chosen not to pay attention to, because I'm not the, I don't, It's somebody else. So I can't answer anything about the the stamping because Okay. I personally have not pay been paying attention. I've been paying attention to the important pieces of of this. Not that that's not important, but somebody else can can talk to to you about that. Alright. I don't know. And we can follow-up with if you have a specific question that maybe I don't know if it's me that's gonna answer that or if the tax department's gonna answer that. Okay. I know that they there's been some discussion with, the tax department and the attorney general's office. I guess I in closing, I would say that do you have any more questions for me before I summarize? I feel like that's

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I Well, guess if we could just sit back, because I'm not sure that I got it down. The number of staff that you currently have dedicated to do the compliance checks

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: We have 14 sworn law enforcement officers. That's our compliance and enforcement team, 14.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Okay. And that's doing all of the various things under DLLs?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Mhmm. Gotcha.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Thank you. You're welcome.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: I think that this bill really makes some significant strides in strengthening the tobacco enforcement. We've worked really closely with the tax department and the attorney general's office and a lot of your colleagues in the Senate and the House. This obviously would transfer that wholesale license to DLL. It codifies those minimum administrative penalties and the inclusion of consecutive license suspensions, and then it has the ban on deceptive devices. Our mission is to really maintain that regulatory framework of licensing, compliance, enforcement, education to support responsible sale and consumption of products. And so we really feel that this bill, where it is now, allows us to do that in a much stronger position. Thank you. Go ahead, representative.

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Yeah, so is there anything else? I mean, I know you just said that it was strengthening your ability to do this work. Are we missing anything on how to give you what you need to keep this product away from children?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: I think that this represents a significant amount of work where we are, this tobacco bill, and I'm really hopeful that we can continue to move forward with this in a way that it can pass this year and that the governor can sign it. I think it's a really good bill that helps strengthen our regulatory and compliance abilities.

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: So even if the governor wouldn't sign it, is there something that, I guess, really act? Just trying to make sure that kids don't have access

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: to that. Yes, so are are we. Of course, and so are we. And I think the deceptive banning those deceptive devices makes imminent sense. I think increasing the penalties on establishments that are selling to minors and they're not paying attention. We expect our licensees to be compliant. We do all kinds of education. We go in with an education first. So we really expect the licensees, and they do. For the most part, they're compliant. But the ones that aren't, they should have a higher penalty, and they should risk losing their license if they're not doing what they need to be doing. And really putting all of the regulatory, that supply chain, putting that in DLL will make it significantly easier for us to make sure that products that aren't licensed are not sold and not on the shelves.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Do you know how much the department has issued and or collected in fines in the last year through your activities, enforcement activities? So we don't find

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: the online tobacco, we refer those to the attorney general's office. Right? So we don't the attorney general's office.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Right. But in retail, you fine people, don't you?

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Yes, if there's a violation. Right. That's my question. Well, I wasn't sure whether it was online or retail. But, we could do we could get you that for Okay.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Yep. Again, most of, we have about a 92% compliance rate, so it's not a lot in terms of the failures or fines.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think a previous witness said around 600, and I just was trying to figure out if that was, accurate or if it was something different than that.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Do you

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: want to speak?

[Hannah Chauvin (Director of Legislative Affairs, Dept. of Liquor & Lottery)]: Sure. I do Just stay for the record. Sure.

[Jennifer Carbee (Legislative Counsel)]: I'm not sure I to report

[Hannah Chauvin (Director of Legislative Affairs, Dept. of Liquor & Lottery)]: the term audit. So I think the testimony this morning was speaking to the amount that comes out of whether it's collected by the hearing general's office from the cases that are referred by the Department of Labor and Labor, we don't have those funds that leaves our hands when they

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: refer There was actually two separate amounts that were listed. That's why I'm Yeah. So I can try to verify information.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: I can I can guarantee you that we are not collecting $600,000 in violations of tobacco retailers? That that sounds like and what miss Chauvin is mentioning is, like so when there's an online, you know, violation, we refer that to the attorney general's office, and then they go after the unlawful Yeah.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: On the onslaught.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Yeah. Yeah. We can give you what we've collected in terms of violations, fees, fines.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And then another follow-up question. I'm trying I've been trying to find it here in the language, and I'm not having much luck. But I think that there is some place in here where we are moving from person to individual.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Move

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: back. Yeah, it seems to be Well, we have recommendations to switch it back. So I think that the intent was that the person in the retail establishment that sold the item is the person who gets fined. Is that what your current practice is, or is it the establishment that gets fined? They both get fined. They both get fined. Okay. Okay. And it's up it's up to the establishment whether they pay the fine on behalf of their employee or whatever. Correct. Okay.

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: Yeah. That's a company policy. Are

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: there any other questions for the commissioner? All right. So we're going

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: to give you written testimony. We're going to tell you the number of dollars for fines, and we're going to answer some questions you had about the stamping.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: That sounds like that'll be more directed towards the office or We the tax

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: would honestly only really need that probably if we defer from the study. It seems like there are enough questions to be asked and answered. Right, in a study. Yes. It's not I realize it's not as simple as it sort of sounds. And Ms. Chauvin, can I We just need to update our witness list? I didn't catch your first Hannah. Okay, thank you. Put an H. Put an H on the H. Both ends. Okay, exactly. All right. H A U V I N. Brackless, got that one right. Okay. Any other further questions for this witness? Thank you both for being here. Appreciate it very much.

[Rep. Brenda Steady (Member)]: Thank you. Okay.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Committee members, A couple of updates. One being I had some discussions with folks at the health department and folks downstairs in Senate, the chair of Senate Health and Welfare on six sixty, the opioid settlement bill. And, there's some discussions happening around different intent and language and what's funded and what's not funded out of it. And so it's just a sort of a heads up to not be surprised when you see something different come back from the Senate. But I think we can figure out how to work it out. It hasn't been voted out of Senate Health and Welfare yet, and perhaps we can take care of these things prior to them voting it out of committee. And we did get a side by side. Now I'm bouncing up to age 46, the Rare Disease Advisory Council. I forwarded on to you the side by side that was provided by the Vermont Rare Disease Advisory people. And so I thought that was helpful. It didn't look like anything that we couldn't live with in terms of what they proposed for changes there. But that'll be going to the Senate floor, and we should be getting that. That was your bill. Right? Yeah. Okay. Alright. And now I'm looking for a volunteer to report on S one ninety eight. The bill we're just talking about, the tobacco bill. Mhmm. I can make an assignment.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: You want

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: me to do it? That's right. I'd be happy to

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: have you do it. Sure. No one else wants to do it. Thank

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: you. I just appreciate it. I always wanna appear ready.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: The reason why I like to do this a little bit in advance is so that people pay particular attention. So they know

[Wendy Knight (Commissioner, Department of Liquor and Lottery)]: what they're gonna be reporting on.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay? All right, folks. We'll end a little bit early today. Anybody have anything that they wanna share or talk about? Is anybody here in any skits or any performances tomorrow night?

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: That's right.

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: It's tomorrow night.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Does anybody have anything they wanna talk about To something happening tomorrow?