Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Hey. Good morning. Before you begin your This morning, we are taking up JRH nine, which is a joint resolution urging the American Speech Language Hearing Association You'll need your its opposition to rapid prompting method of communication instruction for students with apraxia, speech or autism. And so we have invited Chris Medina to speak this morning. And Chris uses another method of communication. Some people call it assisted typing. Some people call it facilitated communication. There's a couple of different names for it. Chris, we are going to do introductions around the room and then we'll ask you to introduce yourself as well as the folks that you brought with you today. Okay? Okay. I'm Theresa Wood and it's nice to see you, Chris. I'm from Wataberry. And I also serve Bolton Fuelscore in Cheyngton. And this time we'll go

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: this way. Hi, I'm Rey Garofano. I represent Essex at Essex Junction. Nice to have you here.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Represent Riport, Middlebury, New Haven, and Rey Birch.

[Rep. Esme Cole]: Good morning, I'm Esme and I represent Hartford.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We'll let Zon make his way around here. Our rooms are small, so we're just doing introductions, Zon, so go ahead.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Yeah. Okay, so my name is Zon Eastes.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I'm Anne B.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Yopford, and I also represent Vernon, on the state. Hi, good morning. I'm Doug Bishop, and I represent Colton.

[Rep. Eric Maguire]: Hi, good morning. Eric Maguire, I

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: represent Rutland City. Good morning, I'm Daniel Noyes, I represent Wolcott, Hyde Park, Johnson and Belvedere.

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: And then Amy, we'll

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: go right around the outside.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: And Chris,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the floor is yours to introduce yourself and the people you brought with you and to give us your testimony. Yeah.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Good.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Morning.

[Chris Medina]: Hi. Chris.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Medina.

[Chris Medina]: Front.

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: Beery.

[Chris Medina]: Town. Good morning. I'm Chris Medina from Beery Town.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: have My.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Typing.

[Chris Medina]: Partner. Shasta. Pat, Mai,

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: New Year of Me, I think. Who's that email?

[Chris Medina]: Sharon. I have my typing partner, Shasta, and my mom, Sharon.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Welcome. That was fine.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Was the House Human Services Committee, and we're glad to have you all here. And The floor is yours, Chris. That's what we say here when it's time for you to give your testimony. So it's an opportunity and thank you.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: You provided us a written copy as well. So thank you for that. And

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: we're ready to hear from you. Why? But you have a lot to say.

[Chris Medina]: Please.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Ignore my

[Chris Medina]: Words.

[Rep. Esme Cole]: I

[Chris Medina]: Speak.

[Rep. Esme Cole]: My.

[Chris Medina]: Typing. Yes. My. True. Thoughts. Please ignore my words. I speak my anything is my true thoughts.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Goodbye.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: I

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Will.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Be.

[Chris Medina]: Using.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: AI

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: or My.

[Chris Medina]: Spoken. Testimony. I will be using AI for my spoken testimony.

[AI voice reading Chris Medina’s testimony]: Hello to the House Human Service Committee. I'm Chris Medina from Barrytown, and I work for Green Mountain Self Advocates, and I am autistic. I am passionate about working as a self advocate and fighting for our rights. JRH nine is a huge deal to me and my typing friends here in Vermont because our means of communicating is life or death. I really think we typers push ourselves to advocate for basic rights because people think we are not intelligent or capable to determine our needs. I know what I need and I know what I want. To have access to my preferred method of communication is like having access to fresh air and clean drinking water. I attended Barrytown Elementary and Middle School, where I was educated alongside my peers. I am extremely lucky to have had typing in my life since second grade when I was introduced to facilitated communication, also known as supported typing, which ASHA has also opposed. With typing, all of my thoughts, needs, wants, and feelings that had been trapped inside my head came pouring out. Having this newly found sense of myself, my life changed. I now had the ability to truly communicate, to share what I knew, how I felt, and excel in academia through typing. Disabled Vermonters are owed the freedom to live like every other Vermonter. The state needs to prove that they care about Vermonters with disabilities and prioritize communication choice. One of my favorite quotes by Rosemary Crossley is, not being able to speak is not the same as having nothing to say. A lot of people believe that verbal speech is a showcase of the intelligence that people possess, holding on to the theory that if a person cannot speak using his or her own verbal speech, then he or she can't possibly receive information to process and understand. This way of thinking can be deadly to people's growth personally, and intellectually, it limits opportunity and decreases one's overall quality of life. I urge the legislature to see me as the fellow Vermonter that I am and recognize typing as a legitimate way of communicating.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you, Chris. You're welcome. And thank you for being here today. Are you ready to answer a couple of questions that we might have?

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Yes. Yes.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the ASHA, because it's easier to say ASHA than the long name. They have long not supported the type of communication that you do. And you have provided some resources, which we appreciate terms of the research and the background and what's happened here in Vermont in terms of the networks that do recognize your communication method. And can you speak to how the person who assists you to communicate, the person who is your assistant to the side? I'm sorry, I didn't really understand the pronunciation of your name. Shasta. Shasta, okay. How is Shasta and other people like Shasta, what kind of training do they receive?

[Chris Medina]: Training. Training. Two.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Support.

[Chris Medina]: Typing. Partners. Four.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Me.

[Chris Medina]: Yes. A.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Hello?

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Good. Promises. Working. It's good.

[Chris Medina]: Training to support typing partners for me is a long process working.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Excluding error.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Chris, do you do you train your typing partners, or do they receive or or in addition to that, I guess, maybe do they receive training from other people to show them how to assist you.

[Chris Medina]: It's

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: a

[Chris Medina]: Process.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Training. Yeah. With

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: a Master.

[Chris Medina]: Framer.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Add.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Following?

[Chris Medina]: Best. Practices. It's a process of formal training with a master trainer and following best practices.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: And

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: can you tell us who has established the best practices?

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: I.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Believe.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: You like to say?

[Chris Medina]: Best. Practices,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: was,

[Chris Medina]: Developed.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: In

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: the

[Chris Medina]: Wellspring.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Appreciate.

[Chris Medina]: Guild. Panic.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Remind.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Easy eye peek. Let me peek. Hey, beer.

[Chris Medina]: Communication. Task.

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: Force. I

[Chris Medina]: believe the best practices was developed in the Wellspring Guild and the Vermont Communication Task Force.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you. Who has a question? Thank you, Chris. Thank you for being I

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: wonder if you didn't have this available to you, if you have any other, what other means of communication would be available to you if you didn't have the typing?

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: What are you going get down here, Sue? What are

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: you going get down here? I know you see the time. Twenty minutes. And then we'll go back home.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: No. No.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We are cold.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: I don't want that question.

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: We see eye. We see eye.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: German peak. Under

[Chris Medina]: Thoughts? Actually. Hard. Four.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Two.

[Chris Medina]: Thing.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Hold on.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: I know.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Because I Learned.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Type.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: How old is he?

[Chris Medina]: When? F c

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: was

[Chris Medina]: No.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Add. Mhmm.

[Chris Medina]: There.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Invisiae.

[Chris Medina]: Boring.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: IPads. Easy eye.

[Chris Medina]: Thoughts actually hard for me to think about because I learned to type when SC was new and there weren't iPads.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: The. I bet technology has made a big difference. In typing. Chris, is it is it Chris, is it okay if I ask your mom and Shasta a

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: question? I know. What are you thinking? Must do.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm Sharon, guess I'm to going to ask you first. What did it mean to learn that Chris was learning all the time and he was now able to communicate with you things that he wasn't able to do before. And that must have been quite moment, I would imagine, in your family.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: I always knew there was more inside. He wasn't able to talk about, use his voice. So the person that had received some training through Syracuse University in New York using FC came to his school and he was in second grade, beginning of second grade, and he asked me to prepare maybe 10 simple questions about his life.

[Chris Medina]: You might need to shut

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: the vacuum off again if you can't keep up to it.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Represent Steady, can you mute yourself, please?

[Rep. Brenda Steady]: Well, it's not keeping up.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Keyboard. And the first few questions were yes and no questions. And then there was one question that kind of just it broke down for me. And that was, where are the puppies? Because our dog had had a litter of puppies. And he typed in the ninja turtle pool, and I started crying, whatever, and the person that was facilitating him turned to me like, you know, this can't be right or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, it is right. Anyway, so that kind of was like the first instant. And from then learned that he already knew how to read. He loved books. He used to go to bed with, I'd read a story, we'd talk, I would sing to him or whatever, Good night, and we'd close the door. And I'd come back up later just to check-in, and

[Rep. Esme Cole]: he would literally have a mountain

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: of books on his bed that he had fallen asleep with. Little by little, he started just participating more in the regular curriculum, and again, he had no formal instruction in reading, but he taught himself how to read and was now creating these amazing things. So he mentioned, I think, here that he excelled in academics, was on the honors list all the way out through eighth grade. And high school was very successful in Swalden High School. I ended up getting several scholarships and went to the University of Vermont. He got his bachelor's degree in English literature and disability studies, and that was the beginning of his advocacy work, where he was asked to present at conferences all over The United States, and he's still doing that now. And he works for GMSA and is very active in advocacy.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's great. GMSA is figuring out the self advocates group of individuals who advocate for people with disabilities. Shasta, do you type with other people? Yes. So, and what kind of, how long did it take you to learn how to, like the right kind of pressure and where individuals, because I know some people type with a hand on the shoulder, some people are further down on the wrist. I've noticed that you've been at the elbow and then sometimes at the, a little bit further down. How did you learn all of these things? I

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: started learning how to support people's communication in 2013 with Pascal at Park

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Center. And

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: then fast forward to me working at Washington County and started working with Harvey. And the best practices that Chris talked about really is my bible when I'm supporting someone. I take that very seriously. And the thing that's made a difference for me is from day one, myself as a communication partner, and that really informs how I pay attention to people and notice things, energy, anxiety, grief, because it varies from day to day and person to person. So takes months of just getting to know the person and building trust and making those observations and seeing pretty much everything as communication. And then it's the start of, I would say, a mutual decision between the type or the communicator and the person supporting them of when it feels right to start. And we start with what's called a ladder where we're doing predictive work. And that teaches me how to understand what's an intentional movement and what's not. And then from there, you just keep practicing. I think consistency is really, really important. And then you can sort of move through the ladder to more open ended or more choice questions.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So it takes years. Yeah. I would imagine that obviously each person is different. So you have to learn how each person is reacting you know, whatever the situation they're in or the day that they're having or their emotions that day or anything like that. That's gotta be a challenging job, I would imagine. But thank you for the work that you do. You're welcome. Yeah. I think representative Bishop might have had a question.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: I do. I know that it seems that Sasha's criticism includes concern about whether it's really individual's thoughts, or is it the facilitators or prompters thoughts that are being conveyed? To me, it seemed like that prompts, Chester, that you were the assistance you were providing was a very light touch, if you will. There seems there was no doubt in my mind, Chris, that you were communicating with us, and it was not just that. In other situations, do those prompts look a little or would that assistance look stronger? Or greater assistance needed for other communicators that has caused I should call it into question.

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: I'm gonna defer to Chris because you've had more communication partners than I've trained, so I feel like you're more of an expert in this. And then if you want me to chime in, Chris, you can give me the green light.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: One.

[Chris Medina]: Yes. Sometimes.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: I.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Will.

[Chris Medina]: Pressure. Yes. Sometimes I will need firm pressure.

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: You wanna speak to that piece about why culture thinks what they think or why their stance is what what it is? That was the part two of your question. Correct? Yeah.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Yeah. And and whether it looks different for different communicators and the level of of blocking assistance.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: Yes. It looks

[Chris Medina]: Different.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Yeah. Do.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Each.

[Chris Medina]: Typer. Yes. It looks different for each typer.

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: I'll share an example of just from my own experience. So one of the other people that I'm supporting their communication with, the way his muscles work, consider it more low tone, so there's not a really forceful muscle movement. So that support looks completely different from Chris, where he's got, he's really the boss of shooting right hand for them, if that makes And as to like, Asha's digging their heels on their stance, don't know why they're doing that. And if you see one of the back pages, which is a list of studies, peer reviewed publications, it really doesn't make sense why they're taking a stance that they are.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Oh, with the QR code. No business

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: from Jubilee. Wanna? Pull it up on your phone. Yeah.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Have no one.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's very it's very helpful to have those resources

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: for us.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So, what we're looking at here is a resolution that was offered by representative Bert and others that is urging Afta to reconsider their decision. And so it's helpful to have these other resources. It's very helpful, Chris, to see how the assistance of a communication assistant for you really has helped you to open up your entire life and open us up to you and vice versa. I think that that's been wonderful over the course of time. And I've known you for a while now. So I've seen how you have progressed through your career and now with Green Mountain Self Advocates. So congratulations on your achievements for sure. And we really appreciate you all being here this morning. I just noticed Representative Noyes did have his Yeah, hand up, just quick. I

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: was just wondering about how technology, like advances in technology has helped with communication. And is there, do you see new technologies being helpful in helping you communicate? Whether like AI or, I mean, I think I heard you were using that as part of it, but yeah. So just, is there stuff coming that will be helpful in your communication?

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: AI is

[Chris Medina]: a

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: big

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: One.

[Chris Medina]: Four.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Working.

[Chris Medina]: A.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: As

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: a

[Chris Medina]: Speaker. AI is a big one for working as a speaker.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I can imagine that from sort of your days in second grade, like the rest of us to now, things have definitely changed, I would imagine. Thank you so much for being here today, Chris, and Sharon and Shasta as well. We really appreciate you sharing your story with us and how communication has changed your life and how you want to make sure that others have this opportunity. So thanks so much for being here. You're welcome.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: You. You

[Rep. Esme Cole]: too. Was just wondering.

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: Hi, Tommy.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Thank you, Chris. It might be a good thing to share your moth story that you wrote for the Washington County Mental Health Annual Dinner. What was it?

[Shasta (Chris Medina’s typing partner)]: It was the annual meeting. It's an audio file. I can send it to Lori Morris to share it with you. I know we're over time. Yeah.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Is it short? It's like six minutes. Okay, so maybe sending the audio file would be great. Yeah. That be great. And we will definitely listen to it. It's a good story. Okay. Look forward to it. Thanks so much, Chris.

[Unidentified participant (interjections/AI prompts)]: You're welcome.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: All right. I hope you get to have lunch someplace where you want to have. Okay, committee. We're going to move to S-two 39 in a couple minutes. Think it's full. Starting with allergies already. Okay, we're going to take up S-two 39. So we got a head start on you, Michelle. Fabulous. I love that. That's great.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I did try to listen to some of the testimony, but I only got little bits and pieces.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I have a little bit of an idea of some of

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: the changes that you'd like. I do just want to let you know, I do have a hard stop set to be in the Senate at 10:30. Yes.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: But I can

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: continue discussion. I'll just circle back around as soon as I can. That's good.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We have you tomorrow too. Yes. Some point. Okay, so it'd be helpful if I pop the draft up on the screen. That sounds great. Eric, it would be also helpful if you sent Michelle the email that you sent us yesterday. But we'll get to that. So first, so we didn't change anything. Need for support. Oh, actually we did. In the purpose statement, the first So recommending change to moderns and reflect current practices. We want to incorporate in that first part. So we heard from a number of witnesses that they really think that requirement to report needs to be a bit more nuanced than it is now. And so we want to incorporate in that first paragraph somehow that we'd like to see the system recognize the potential for the need for support as an alternative to reporting. It's

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: those- I just want to make sure I'm clear on your point. So not like reporting and then services, but like reporting services prior to- report being made.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: If there's an ability to recognize that it's really services that are necessary to alleviate the situation, that there's an ability to intervene actually before reporting. So a decision point essentially. And the changes that we did in Act 154 recognize that after the report has been made. And so, we're trying to figure out, is there an ability? So, we're going to ask the work group, is there an ability to recognize that before the report is made? Okay. So somehow incorporating that thought process into A. And then we went crazy on the working group members. I know you wanted to move some of the folks that were consulted with up into actual members. So here goes, and people are going to keep me honest and we vary back and forth whether we got 13 or 14, but I think we did land on 13.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Could I ask you just to look at C and tell me that I can just check, put checks next to any of those people who are already listed and C that you're gonna wanna move to B, and then we can add people to B that maybe don't

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: have Okay. Any only to C we're moving to B are individuals with lived experience. Okay. All the rest of them we're keeping in. Okay. We're changing B quite a bit. Okay. So we eliminated OPR. Okay. We kept the executive director for the Center for Crime Victim Services. We kept the domestic violence designee. We moved attorney general to consult with. Okay. We deleted the chief administrative judge. The thinking behind that is this is all prior to a Chin situation. We said one member from DCF. Okay. This is where this is what my notes look like on the second page. So people are going to have to give me the Executive Director of Prevent Child Use, have the Vermont Child Youth and Family Advocate or Deputy Advocate, we added for Deputy Advocate. Okay, we dealt with Vermont. I'm glad Rey is not here because I told her I would be able definitely to understand what I wrote. We added Defender General, I

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: can read that one. We

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: added the parent child center network, representative of the parent child center network. These are all under people who are on the work group. Okay. And then

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'll just because I'm not necessarily familiar maybe with some of these organizations. Is that the Do you know the exact name of that?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: PCCN, Vermont Child Centered Network. We have law enforcement with specific representation from Thank you. By the board. Vermont Law Enforcement Advisory Board. Yep. The chair of the Vermont. Yeah. We're being specific because that person is a specific person that So you want it to be any certified law enforcement officer, but the person is appointed by the LAB? Yes, except for it's not any law enforcement officer. It's a law enforcement officer who has served on a special investigations unit. Okay. Okay. The two individuals with lived experience, We would like one of them to be appointed by the Office of Child Youth and Family Advocate from their advisory board. And was that the official name of their advisory board, Dan?

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Just had it open, here, it's the Law Enforcement Advisory Board. Law enforcement,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: no, the opposite child in the academic I'm sorry, yes. Is it just called the

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Yeah, it's the advisory I'll look it up.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, thank you. No, no, it's all right. And the other person

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Advisory Council. Yeah, Advisory Council. Thank you. Childhood and Family Advisory Council.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Remind me what PRC is. Anybody remember what PRC is? Wrote don't the parents. Thank you. The other person with lived experience to be appointed by the parent representation center. Childhood and Family

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Advisory Council.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. We are looking for, we're actually wanting to be more specific about not just lived experience. So we want one person with lived experience to be a person who experienced abuse or neglect, and the other person to be a parent or guardian or family member who was, I don't know how to put this in your terms, but wrongfully accused. Okay. That's the person from the parent representation center will be the one, the wrongfully accused one. And the Office of Child Youth and Family Advocate Advisory, what did you say, The border committee. Council. That would be the person who had experienced abuse and neglect. Can I dig in a little bit

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: in terms of who the PRC would appoint? Get the concept, but I'm trying to think about how to specifically identify that. Would you it would be someone who was reported, investigated, but unsubstantiated? Or I'm just trying to think

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: of what is the kind of trigger. Yeah, unsubstantiated. I think unsubstantiated. I'm also, as I'm saying that, I'm also thinking that I know that that group has also had folks who honestly never got any conclusion. So there

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: were

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: cases or there were reports and nothing ever came of it, they never really knew what the outcome was. But I think that's probably too amorphous to try to figure out how to say. So I guess I would go unsubstantiated. Yeah, sorry. We just had to talk through that in my head. And a representative from children's mental health services of the designated agencies.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Say that again. A

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: representative of the designated agencies who works in children's mental health.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Who would appoint?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Vermont Care Partners. Folks, help me out with Doctor. Metz. Is he the person who is the chair of the Who's one of the chair. Of of of which board?

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Was that the law enforcement advisory board? On the Citizens Advisory Board. Doctor Metz?

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Yes. It's under it's the DCF's Vermont Citizens Advisory Board.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. And I'm trying to remember. Oh, right there. Okay, I have Sorry, it was down here. I that we had it, but

[Rep. Esme Cole]: I ran out of space at point.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I did pretty good, though. I knew. So this is also on the work group. This is the physician co chair of the Rot Citizens Advisory Board.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: The other co chair is not a physician, so we want to make sure. I think they're pointing him.

[Rep. Esme Cole]: And his affiliations with the child safe program too.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm sorry, say what?

[Rep. Esme Cole]: And his affiliation too is overlapping with the child safe program, which is important. And

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: he's a pediatrician. So he covers multiple boxes. All right, committee, did I miss anybody? Did I say Defender General?

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Should I just put Defender General or designee or would you want it to be the Juvenile Defender?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm sorry, yes, the Juvenile Defender, yeah. And Vermont Principals Association, I'm sorry, an educator appointed by the Or not educator, we decided a principal, yeah. A principal appointed by Vermont Principals Association.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Mine looks

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It's like much neater, it's much neater.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Don't know. I can't beat a pencil. All this technology

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: that I need to is

[Rep. Esme Cole]: bark out to you in a pencil.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: What are gonna say, Jay?

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Regarding the principal, I think yesterday our conversation was about appointment of a principal. But did Jay not say that he had someone on their staff who is a past principal of fifteen years who seems to bring a lot of expertise in this area? Was there a specific individual or just leaving it?

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: He recommended just principal.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: No, he did talk to somebody on his staff who was a previous principal. I think we just keep it with principal. Yeah.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: It was a woman and her service principal might have been out of state, so might not be directly.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think that caught everybody. And then we added to the consulting the Office of Racial Equity. And then we left all the rest Oh, and consult with also the child development division of DCF. We shouldn't have to tell each other, but we probably do. Okay. All right. I think that is it, or we'll be able to tell when we get a short written copy back. So then in D,

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: we have I did hear the part y'all wanted to do an interim report and then have a later Yeah,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: sort of an interim presentation, like by April 1. April 1? Right, 04/01/2027, a status report presenter status. It doesn't have to be a written report, guess, we're trying to get at, presentation.

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: And

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: then the final report will be due October 1. Okay. The time for second half of the session or the biennium. Mhmm. Okay. And now we move to what Eric had. Did you send it to her?

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: I did, yes.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. Alright. So we add so we wanted to flesh out a little bit more about what's the work product that we're expecting. Okay. So we think that Eric's statement does it, but we added one to the bottom. And this isn't it's not it's not on air unless you added it to yours. Did you check? Okay.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Oh, protected.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So Just trying to see how

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I can open that. And Do you want me to pop it up on the screen if I can? Or

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We all have it. Okay. Alright.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I am looking at it. Okay.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So at the I think he's got, like, four things.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: Three,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: okay, we added four. The other one is any alternatives to reporting when it's in the best interest of the child. It's one of the additional things for this morning.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm sorry, any alternatives to reporting?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: When it's in the best interest of the child.

[Rep. Zon Eastes]: And you want specific statutory sections called out or

[Sharon Medina (Chris’s mother)]: Yes.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: In that very first, the very first bullet that Eric has, we want 49, twelve, and thirteen called out. Okay.

[Rep. Eric Maguire]: We're place that in the section one under a where it says group for the purpose of examining the existing statutes, just naming the statutes. Naming the statutes. Yeah.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And then we kept everything else the same, except for, we don't need to tell them what constitutes a quorum, I guess, unless we feel like we have to. Majority constitutes quorum. You want to answer this question? I think, yeah. All right. But we need to add the standard language about individuals, And the per DCF has agreed to pay the per diems out of their current budget. And folks, we started talking about number of meetings. I didn't write anything down about number of meetings. We didn't really. We didn't. Yeah. So we're giving them extra time because it's a bigger undertaking than I think originally envisioned maybe or whatever. Once we started hearing a testimony, realized it's a bigger job. But we also know that there's not a lot of room for additional reimbursement. So we're talking about they have to have a meeting by August 1, August 15 or something like August 15. So there's 12 Folks okay with 12 meetings?

[Rep. Esme Cole]: Questions about the mandate section and Eric's language and all. And it'll be much easier for me to see it in front of us, think, when it's laid out in writing within the bill. Examining the statute and looking for a particular alternative rule surrounding reporting when it's in the best interest of the child, that sounds good. But I wonder if the other halfs of how we are precisely asking them to look at those 49, twelve and thirteen, like who's on the list and definitions. I don't know if those other specifics in terms of directing them how to evaluate the statute are important to spell out a little

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: bit further. Well, give us some suggestions. What do you think? Sure.

[Rep. Esme Cole]: Yeah, I mean, in our I think I would have to write it out and sit with it longer. But I mean, of course, one of the most obvious asks is who to include, as we stated in previous meetings on the list, updated definitions with law enforcement versus police officer. So I'll work on language with that. But to the I don't know if there may be other witnesses I'd have to look back to, but certain things like the definitions, like the very specific asks of how we want to edit grade nine, twelve, and 13. So I

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: can come back to that. I just want to be careful. I don't want to predetermine their work. Do you know

[Rep. Esme Cole]: what I mean? Yeah, it'll be a balance of leaving it open, but also making sure that when they come back to us, we are getting answers to the questions that we had

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: in the Exactly. I understand what you're saying. And what you're, I want to make sure I want to make sure everybody's understanding what you're saying. So you're saying that it feels a little too broad to you to just say examine 4912 or 4913.

[Rep. Esme Cole]: Exactly. Although I appreciate the nuance we provided with, we are curious about alternatives to mandated recordings, but it feels appropriate and safe and in best practice for the child's health and well-being. So that's a good example of a very specific ask. But I feel like there's a couple more specific asks to leave in there we've been describing throughout our testimony here. So I'll dig in more about that.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I'm happy to just try to encapsulate a little bit of what already exists in twelve and thirteen there, which I think if you read the statutes, the issues present themselves pretty clearly around updating the definitions, who are the people who should be mandatory.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, the standard for reporting, things like that.

[Rep. Esme Cole]: And then

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you can kind of build off of that if I've missed anything.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, I think the standard for reporting is one that stands out to me. That is pretty broad. And we had a couple of witnesses testify to the feeling like there had potentially been unintended consequences of the changes that were made a few years ago in terms of the volume of reporting that started happening. And the person from the principal's association referenced somebody's career who was cut short because they had responded and done all the right things, but the state's attorney prosecuted them because they didn't report, but their superior had reported. And I guess there was some big case. I remember it specifically, but a person was prosecuted twice, the first time was a hung jury, I think he said. A person ended up resigning, even though according to the testimony, the person had taken the actions to protect the child and reported it. And the superintendent had actually reported it to DCF, but the principal didn't. That person thought they were fulfilling their duty, they weren't reporting to the superintendent.

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They reported to the superintendent? But they didn't report directly to DCF.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. And so there was a, a pretty public case about that. I know when it was. He didn't say when it was, but it wasn't like just recently. It was back a while ago, but he said that that caused quite a lot of concern among education professionals. And so we want them to not just think sort of inside what the box is right now. We want them to think about how has child welfare progressed in the last decade. And moving forward, we are wanting to make sure that we're as trauma informed as possible. And as looking at obviously the impact of poverty on people and not looking at poverty as a abusive situation. And so I think that we have a good mix of people who will bring that to the discussion table. We're just trying to One of the things that we also talked about yesterday is whether the exclusion for religious professionals should continue to exist. And I know that that's a big one. But I think that's one of the ones that you were specifically speaking to yesterday, And so I'm not sure I wanna We want them to look kind of like what you were just talking about, Michelle, when you're saying, who's the reporters? Should exclusions exist or not I'll just look

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: at it. I think there's key policy choices that are laid out in there. What are the penalties for not reporting? Should there be an exception to the requirement for reporting under certain circumstances? And who should that be for? Or should there not be? Exactly. And so I think it'll help maybe if I kind of scope those out, and then you can just tweak them a little build on it if there's things I didn't cover.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, I think that sounds great. Thank you. Yeah, we just felt like the Senate version was a little lacking in detail in terms of what we wanted to provide more direction to the group, but also didn't want them to go. We didn't want them to go into 01/1954 and everything that happens after a report, because we've already done that. We've done that, have a whole new law about it. So we really now are focused on the before and during aspects of it. Other thoughts from anybody else about what we can ask Michelle to think about in this next draft?

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: have twelve minutes. Right. Have I appreciate that. Okay. Thanks, Michelle. Thank you. So committee members, I did hear back from Mark Redman, he actually wants to see the bill before he makes a commitment. And so I'll just let him know that we have a revised version coming maybe tomorrow. Sure. Actually, you never know how the day goes, but I have

[Michelle (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a little bit of time after floor today. And so this will be at the top of my list to work on that. And my hope will be that I can move it through and send you something sometime today. So that you can kind of look at it. And if you want to make any tweaks before I come in tomorrow, let me know.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. All right. Thanks a bunch. Yes. Yeah, we're going to take a little break. Okay, so committee, we have a little bit of extra time here, so we're gonna take a break. After we do this, we are at 10:30, we're going to hear from ASHA. Well, people representing ASHA, but the Vermont