Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Sun is shining today. That's a good thing. Glad to have that. We are taking up S-two 39 again this morning, an act relating to child abuse and neglect reporting working group. And taking a look at the folks, and really we're talking about the composition of the committee. So we're taking testimony today from folks who are regular reporters to the Department for Children and Families. And as we talked about yesterday, we felt that reporters are not represented in this working group and felt like they obviously have a perspective to bring to whatever recommendation. So we've invited some folks to testify about that. And we're going to start off with Ellen. Good morning, Ellen.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Good morning.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Nice to see you. Thanks. Having We have some folks who haven't been in the room this session. So I think we're gonna do a quick round of introductions around the room. My name is Theresa Wood, and I'm from Waterbury, I also serve Bolton, Buellsdorf, and Huntington.

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Good morning. I'm Daniel Noyes. I represent Wolfgang. I park Johnson in Belvedere. Hi. Good morning, Eric Maguire. I represent Rutland City.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Hello. I'm Doug Bishop. I represent Colchester's Chittenden 20 District. Good morning. My name is Zon Eastes.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: I live in Guilford and also represent Vernon.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Hi, Ellen. I'm Esme from Hartford. Good to see you.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (Member)]: Hi. I'm Jubilee McGill. I'm from Bridgeport and also represent Middlebury, New Haven, and Waybridge.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Good morning, Ellen. I'm Reggie Arifano, Essex And Essex Junction.

[Laurie (Committee Assistant)]: Hi, over here in the corner, Laurie, Assistant.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We'll go right around the outside.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: I'm Steady, I'm a legislative assistant with Action Circles.

[Kevin McGill, UVM legislative intern]: My name is Kevin McGill. I'm a UVM legislative intern working with.

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: Good morning, I'm Faye Nichols,

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I'm the Senior Executive Director of

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: the Law Principles and Social Education.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Morning, I'm Faye Marple, I'm

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the Director of Communications and Legislative Affairs for DCF Family Services. Great, And so, Alan, you can go ahead and introduce yourself and we'll get started. We're really interested in the perspective that you have on whether the parent child centers should be included or your experience with any recommendations that you might have about the bill itself or the underlying statute around mandated reporters and child abuse and protection.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Great, great. Thank you. And thank you for thinking of us and the Parent Child Center Network. I am Ellen Amstetz. I'm the Director of the Vermont Parent Child Center Network. And I know you all know this, but we are a network of 15 parent child centers located all over the state. We are legislatively mandated to provide eight core services that work with families, with children under the age of six, to build responsive parenting, support child development, protect against economic hardship, and prevent child maltreatment. Is our mission.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes. Can you get a little bit closer to your microphone?

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Yep, let me also see if I can turn it up. Okay, is that better?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Yep, great, okay, I will lean in. So the parent child centers are a cornerstone to Vermont system of care for families with young children, and many of them serve through other grant and funding sources, families with older children as well. So, the integrated grant that funds the parent child centers that come through the Child Development Division is focused on families with little kids. So, this piece of this act, I have to say, we didn't have quite enough time to dig into this as a network like we usually do and really think through what was here. But I do feel like this is really an easy one for us to say, yes, it's absolutely necessary and good timing to do this. We currently work with at least 500 families that have open DCF protective services cases throughout the state and many more that we just simply have not identified as having those cases because they come to us for a range of services. But we do a lot of work with those families and coordinated, of course, as providers to small children, our staff are mandated reporters. So we support the creation of a child abuse and neglect reporting working group to improve that. I've got a, I'll share a few improvements that we see could be made in the bill, and also just wanted to share a little bit more about the wider perspective the parent child centers have that would help inform the child welfare system. You know, we understand, and I will say I'm a little bit of a newcomer to Vermont, I'm going on two years in this role, but I did come from New York State, and I did a few years of working in child welfare in the South Bronx, So a little different than Vermont.

[Charlie Gilserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: Oh, on, South Bronx and Vermont, they're very similar.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: I do have some perspective on things that worked in New York and some things that we do with families are universal, regardless of what is happening around families. Families are our first places where children are nurtured and cared for, and that is universal across different environments. And so I can share some of what I observed in New York. But here I am in Vermont, and Vermont does an amazing job of focusing on children. And there is so much potential here in Vermont to really strengthen the work that we do with small children and families and support them. So, it does seem that this issue needs to be addressed in Vermont. I see that it is somewhat out of step with what other states are doing. So, I know this was mentioned in testimony yesterday, but as a first step for this working group is really doing an analysis of how other States are doing, how mandated reporting has shifted over the years, what we can do. I see there's a lot of legal compliance issues in this. I really valued what Matthew Bernstein said yesterday. Boy, you know, you really need some lawyers to dig into this and just really make sure that we are, as a state, following the rules but being supportive to families as well. You know, it's paramount that we protect children. DCF does amazing work in protecting children, but there's also more work that can be done with families. So comparison with other states would be a really helpful first step. You know, I know this was mentioned also, but I do think the scope of the bill could be clearer. Like what is the expected outcome of this bill? Maybe just to really like aspirational where is the bill hoping to get there so we have a little sense of what the end product will look like and where we go from there. This is not a dig, but I do see that a lot of reports get done in Vermont and they're great reports. I do wonder if they're really being followed and revisited. Just as an example of that, my colleagues, as I asked around about this issue, it was shared to me that there's a University of Vermont report done in 2021 that addressed out of home custody issues. And I did look at those recommendations in that report from 2021 and see that there's, you know, not everything has been embraced and moved forward. I think there's been some process made, but just making sure that when a working group is formed, that we really use that information to lead us forward. And I know this was also mentioned in the testimony, but just making sure there's adequate time to do the proper review. It seemed like a tight timeline in this bill to get all those folks together around the table and to really dig into this and really make solid recommendations that everybody can wrap their heads around and move forward with.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Great. Ellen, did you say, and I missed it, is the Parent Child Network interested in being part of the group or being consulted or collaborating with? There's different roles. And we're trying to balance the size of the group along with balancing people in different aspects of child abuse reporting. We are looking at, I think, probably based upon the feedback that we're getting in our own read of the bill, needing to be more specific about what, like you said, the outcomes and what's the product that we're looking for, what specific recommendations are we really looking to have And input I think that we are definitely going to be making some of those changes. So just what kind of role do you see the network having?

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Yeah, yeah. And as the bill is written, it's very specific to the reporting process and mandated reporting. And I would say without having really consulted my colleague of 15 parent child center directors, what I could see the PCC's role in at this point is really providing some information to the work group based on our experiences, rather than maybe necessarily sitting on the work group. Because I do see that there's a lot of legal expertise that we may not have delved into, but that we do have the family perspective and the mandated reporter perspective. What is that experience like for the parent child center staff? The training, is the training adequate? The process? And I think we could weigh in with some data, so qualitative data for the work group. And then on the side of parents who have lived through the experience, I see in the bill it does talk about getting perspective from people who have been the victims of child abuse or have grown up in an abusive that's really important. But I would also add that the perspective of parents who have worked with the system is important as well, just to understand what worked for them, I what didn't work for know this was mentioned yesterday in testimony, but sometimes these cases actually re traumatize families, and that there are other approaches that can be used when family a is having challenges in parenting, the state in general should really take a preventive approach in supporting the family approach. And then again, based on my experience, and it's happening around the country, that we are doing child welfare is being approached so differently. When I started in my career as a social worker in the mid 80s, children were routinely, routinely taken out of homes and put in foster homes and not even with relatives. You know, that was the big thing, being foster parents. And we saw that over time that that removal, kind of the quick removal of children without really considering the other factors in the family was really detrimental. We did much more harm than good over the years, and we've slowly but surely moved towards a system where we're supporting parents and understanding that parents face challenges, and then there's with the proper supports and understanding what kind of the root causes are of child maltreatment, that we can actually preserve families and help parents turn that corner to be nurturing, parents, and that in the end that really is better for the children. You talk to anybody that's been a child exposed to the child welfare system as they have gotten older and reflect on this situation. They almost always want to be with their families or at least their extended families. So there's a lot more that can be done. I know Vermont is moving in that direction, just like all the other states are. But just making sure that families we see them in the parent child centers. Doors are open to all, but we see and we can recognize some of the stressors on parents that are indicators of child maltreatment, mental health issues, the financial issues, it's pretty well documented that when families feel that financial stress or are under some kind of economic crisis have the rug under, Good parenting kind of falls apart, stresses the cracks in the system, and parents can't focus on nurturing supportive parenting and being responsive to their, especially for their very young children. And we know that the most important period of brain development is zero to three years old. It is absolutely critical that during those years that families are stable and parents have the supports they need. We can do, the long term impact of not providing stable parenting during those years is pretty monumental. So there's a lot we can do in that regard in the system. I realize that's well beyond the scope of this, but it is also intertwined and it's very hard to look at just one little piece of the system without looking at the full system. So I had to put that spin on it. Apologize. Yeah.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: No. You no no reason to apologize for sure. And, you know, I think right now, we, you know, received some feedback. We had our committee discussion had already sort of leaned in the direction of needing to be specific about what we asked the group for. And yesterday, we heard testimony that we should focus on section forty nine point one two and forty nine point one three, 49.12 being the definitions, definitions are really important in this space. And then 49.13 is the mandated reporters and how that plays out. And we did hear yesterday that it's when we were talking about people who have lived experience, people who have experienced child abuse, and maybe now as an adult and reflecting back, but also, as you said, family members. And I think that one of the witnesses we had yesterday, noting that it's also important for us to hear from people who have been wrongly accused and gone process through and trying to make sure that we're getting a broad enough perspective. So thank you. Any questions for Ellen from anybody here? Just Yeah.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Question. Ellen, can you clarify near the top of your remarks, referenced the parent child center network and the contact the number of clients it has that interact in some way with DCF. Mhmm. And I'm

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: not quite I

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: wasn't quite clear on how you characterize. I think it was 500 families. What type of connection did you how did you characterize that connection to DCF?

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: That they have a we describe it as involvement with DCF. So I believe that means an open case. That's just always how we've asked the question on our data metrics, so that they are involved in some level with a DCF caseworker around some concern about maltreatment.

[DCF Family Services representative (name unknown)]: Can I just add to it? I think, Ellen, can you clarify, is that with DCF's Family Services Division, particularly that does welfare?

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Yes, yes, yes.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Any other involvement with DCF.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: So it's Yes, yes, Thank you.

[DCF Family Services representative (name unknown)]: Either an assessment or an investigation or an open case with family services that varies. So not all of DCF.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Yeah, yeah. And I believe that question on our data collection, which is transferred from when CDD was doing the data collection to now the network is doing it, but that it's part of the CBCAP funding that we get. It's federal funding, the child abuse prevention funding that the PCCs are using for concrete supports. Our grant manager, Helen Mathis, needs to report to the federal government on how using that funding and how it does reduce the incidence of abuse and neglect and support those families. But it's a useful question for us to really understand exactly who we're serving, because again, our doors are open. Folks come to playgroups. They just jump in on parent education programs. They get home visits. And until we really get to know them, we may not know that they have an open DCF family services case because we are serving them as a community participant.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: In some cases, we do know that right off the bat, if they're in child care and specialized child care. And we're giving them the extra supports they need to improve their parenting and support the family.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Representative Cole?

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Thank you, Ellen. I really appreciate your emphasis on prevention of further trauma, in particular when it comes to how we modernize and update this statute. In previous testimony, we received feedback too that one of our weak areas or weaker areas, I suppose, say is connecting with therapeutic supports in response to whatever situation occurred that involved TCF intervention. And I know you do a lot of that, I think, those therapeutic supports in your work. I wonder if you see an opportunity in this working group or in this statute to sort of connect the dots just a little bit better. I don't know if there's a creative, clever way. I know the statute itself is more about who's made an importer and in what circumstances and all, but I don't know if there's a missing piece that we could integrate here.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Yeah, I mean, I would love that. I mean, I think we'd all love that, but I get the mission creep on the actual act. And I do think by putting that lens on the mandated reporting part of it, we'll actually make some improvements in prevention that reporting cases are followed up on having a prevention lens is hopefully that will kind of naturally fall out of the recommendations from the working group. And if I look at the folks that are already listed to be on that working group, I think that will be we're all on board with that, I believe. That it will just come out of and again, that the scope of what the working group does and how they do their work hopefully will get us to the right place on that. And there'll be recommendations from that working group that will apply to, you know, and prevention. You know, again, it's a national, you know, we're going that direction nationally and we see the results. You know, and I also do want to say just from a really kind of positive, optimistic view, what Vermont is doing with child care will absolutely improve outcomes for children for a number of reasons. Number one, they were going to be getting this high quality early childhood care, but also we are relieving stress from parents, the financial stress of how do I pay for childcare and can I get to work and what am I going do with my child and I don't trust the child care provider that I have? So that type of parent stress does to lead to maltreatment. And there'll be more eyes on that family, too. That child will have professionals interacting with them and they'll be interacting with the parents as well and modeling that positive parenting. So I do see really positive outcomes for children in general, even beyond what the obvious benefits of the child care bill are. And so we're really happy about that. And the parent child are happy to be part of that system to fill in the gaps and to be that system of support for families who have faced challenges.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you, Ellen, for being here this morning, and thank you for your work with the network.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: Thank you. Thanks so much for having Okay,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Ian, welcome.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: Hi. Thank you.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you. Thank you for hanging in there, especially I know being a school counselor is a busy job at a local high school. So thanks for thanks for hanging in there and giving us the time this morning.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: Yeah. Yeah. Happy to be here. I yeah. I would just briefly introduce myself. My name is Ian Trombilek, as you can see. And I am the counseling director at Lamoille Union High School in Hyde Park, Vermont. So representative Noyes is my is, one of my reps. And

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: had to step out just for a moment, but he'll be right back. No, no worries.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: I actually grew up to down in Middlebury and graduated Middlebury High School 2008. I'm almost positive that I graduated with Representative McGill. Your name stood out and I was

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: like, I know.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Yeah, so so

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: that's just I love Vermont. Great. Small state every this second or third time I've testified on Zoom to a house committee and it's always there's always some fun connections there So in in addition to being a school counselor, I also am primarily here representing the Vermont School Counselor Association. I'm on the board of directors and the chair of the advocacy committee. It's one of our three committees. And so I have some written testimony that I'll that I'll read, and I'm also happy to answer questions, any questions that you might have for me as well. So thank you for the opportunity to testify on S two thirty nine. This bill represents an important opportunity to strengthen how Vermont supports students through a coordinated statewide approach. It is a meaningful step towards strengthening student support systems in Vermont. We would like to request that you consider including a school counselor in the list of stakeholders with which the working group will consult. This will help ensure that the policy development will include input from professionals with direct expertise in student mental health, academic planning, and family engagement. School counselors are essential to the success, safety, and well-being of Vermont students. They support academic achievement, college and career readiness, and critically student mental health. They are often the first trusted adult students turn to when facing anxiety, depression, trauma, family instability, and school disengagement. For this work to be effective, it must include input from the professionals who are most directly engaged in addressing these challenges every day. School counselors bring unique essential expertise in mental health support and early identification, family engagement and communication, academic and career planning, systems level coordination and implementation, direct work with students while also collaborating with educators, families, community and community partners, giving them a comprehensive perspective on student needs and school systems. Including VISCA, Vermont School Counselor Association, will help ensure that policies are grounded in real school based practice. Recommendations reflect student centered developmentally appropriate approaches. Implementation is practical, sustainable, and effective across districts. And with a 119 school districts across Vermont, consistent and informed guidance is essential. School counselors offer statewide perspective rooted in direct service to students. That's my testimony. And I think just to clarify, we're proposing that a school counselor from this could be one consultant that folks reach out to for information.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Great. Thank you, Ian. One of the questions that came up yesterday that we had some discussion about is training and training for folks who are on the current list of mandated reporters. What does that look like for school counselors and other educators? What does the training aspect look like?

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: Yeah, it's a great question. So I think the first pass is that school counselors are all master's level license. You need to get your master's to be licensed as a school counselor or be working towards a, you know, we have some school counselors that work under a provisional license while they work towards their master's. And those master's programs, they're primarily centered at UVM and, Vermont State. They, all include ethics courses that cover mandated reporting, in pretty, extended detail. We we talk a lot about it, run through scenarios at our our master's programs. And then annually, I believe this is common across all school districts, though I've only ever worked at at Lamoille North. So I but I believe every school district just like us has an annual set of trainings that we do at the beginning of every school year through a software called Vectors. And there's probably nine of them, and it probably takes two to three hours that we complete during our first week back at school before our students arrive. So it's usually the August. Their modules and and so they deal with both medical stuff. So we have one that's about seizures, how to identify you know, it's sort of just a knowledge check, to make sure that, if you're in the building that you know how to respond to certain medical emergencies, or and one of them is around identifying child abuse, mandated reporting, things like that. So we get sort of knowledge checked at the beginning of every year, at the beginning of every school year, in addition to kind of at the outset of our careers when we're when we're going for our degree. That's when we learn the most. And then there's sort of the periodic training.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And is the training specific to Vermont law? So in other words, there's broad based training about how to recognize child abuse or neglect or things like that. But do you get specific training about what the requirements are for the Vermont law?

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: No. I think it is more when I think to the trainings, I think it's more broad based. That is a really good I will I will let me I can dig back into that and get back to you. But I I believe that the true the vectors trainings that we do at the start of the year are, broader. The the education we get in our master's programs is more specific to Vermont, but that really is, you know, only if you're a school counselor that got your degree in Vermont. And, of course, we get plenty who who don't and move to the state to for the work. So, yeah, the I think the training could be significantly improved for sure. Certainly on my team, it's something that we talk about a lot when it comes to mandated reporting. Mandated reporting in schools. And as counselors, there's, of course, the need to consult with your team not infrequently because the the therapeutic relationship with your students comes into play, and it and it plays often runs up against the the legal and ethical requirement to to report. So we it's something that that is not whispered about. We talk about it quite a lot. Like, at least once a week, I'll be having a conversation with a colleague of yeah. Like, I've been, you know, talking with a student. This was disclosed. I think this is a call. I think this is a call to DCF. And that those conversations happen with my principal, my assistant principal, the folks on our behavior intervention team here a lot. And sometimes kids just drop things in the middle of a conversation or in the middle of the hallway, you know? And And so it's sometimes we find ourselves in gray areas that we're not quite sure which way to go with it. And so it's it's something that as school professionals, mental health professionals, we we spend a lot of time talking to each other about and trying to sort through the you know, obviously, some cases are black and white and crystal clear what needs to happen. And then there's there's a a handful that require a little bit of teasing out of how are we gonna how are we gonna navigate this.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Do do you one of the things that, you know, I think that we're interested in understanding better is, you know, we received some testimony that that sometimes, because of the fear of consequences if you don't report, that people sort of default to reporting. I actually really appreciate what you were just talking about, the interplay between the therapeutic relationship with the student and the family and understanding the law and how that intersects. And it can be a more nuanced decision. Do you feel that that's kind of a, I guess, a common occurrence? When I say common, I mean that people go through people in schools, whether it's a guidance counselor or a classroom teacher, a coach, or whatever. Do they go through that sort of nuanced thinking? Or do they do people, in your in your experience kind of default to making a report because they, you know, feel like there's some sort of consequence if they don't?

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: That's a great question. And I I do think that there is a sort of air on the side of caution approach, and the the caution in this case would be to make the report. Because there is you know, we are taught, that there's a legal and ethical obligation if you suspect child abuse to not carry that yourself and to let somebody know who could potentially end the child abuse. And so, it is often the case that we on the side of we we should make the report. I'm gonna be I just to speak freely, one aspect of this is the the that often the report is going to the Department of Children and Families. Mhmm. DCF, you know, I don't know that it's a great secret, but they're very overloaded. And they're they're under you know, this is just me speaking my opinion. They're understaffed. They need help. 90% of the things that we report to DCF do not get taken up for investigation. And so there is an element of mandated reporting where we often kind of know the dynamics of what we report that doesn't investigation and the things that do get taken up as an investigation. And this is my ninth year, so I sort of see the patterns. And I, often when it comes to so so the the the fundamental question sometimes is if I report this and it gets taken up as an investigation, this kid is never gonna trust me again. They're never gonna tell me anything again because they told me that they they, maybe thought or were hoping that this was just gonna stay between us, and I had to I had to report it. And sometimes that fear that you're gonna hurt the the relationship with a student, which is the most fundamental thing to a school counselor, can be mitigated just with with the knowledge that you can fulfill your your legal and ethical obligation to make a report, and it's not likely to impact your relationship because it's not likely to be investigated. Mhmm. Which is not that's not really the system we wanna live in. You know? I I the things that I report, you know, I report them because I'm worried about my student. I'm worried about what's happening at home. I want something to happen. At the same time, I acknowledge that DCF going into the home, investigating, potentially taking the student out of the home is also not always the best thing that could happen to that student given, you know, sometimes the the shortage of foster homes or the shortage of places for the student to go. I've had I've made reports that resulted in students being placed in residential programs in Tennessee. Like, I didn't that I didn't want that to happen. You know? That is not the outcome that I thought was gonna be best for the kid, but that's it sort of is out of your hands at that point, of course. But it is really tricky. I mean, I think it's one of the things that I feel like we as school counselors, have to become experts in. You know, part of my practice when I meet my new students, the beginning of their ninth grade year, I I do explain to them what I do. Like, why why do you have school counselor? What am I here for? How can I serve you? And I explained to all of them the the the rules around manager reporting. And as short and brief because their eyes are gonna close over if they're going too much. But I but I do let them know, like, this is a confidential space, and there are certain things that you could tell me that I would not be able to keep confidential, that I would have to do report. And I always explain to them that if they, you know, at the very least, I won't ever blindside them. You know? If they tell me something that I know is something I need to report, I will I will tell them in that moment. We need to just, like, I here's here's what I'd we need to talk about. Mhmm. And a lot of times, it's actually not necessarily a DCF report, but it mandated reporting also applies to if a student discloses something like self harm that their parents don't know about. I need somebody at home to be aware that there's a safety concern. And so often, I'll sit with the student and I'll say, we I know you don't wanna have this conversation with mom and dad, but I will be here with you. We'll we'll make the call together. We'll have that conversation together. And it can turn into a really powerful and and really effective moment where where we all get on the same page and we start talking about what's really going on. But the the much harder ones are when you suspect that something is happening with the parents to the students and the report needs to go to DCF because that's when, you know, really, really significant shifts can end up happening in the in the home, which, like I said, sometimes shifts need to happen and sometimes the shifts that do happen are not ones that are gonna be better for the student. But I think that is a much larger, of course, beyond the scope of this committee issue around funding and resources and how we handle things once they get to

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: that stage, of course. Thank

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: you. Thank you. Yeah. And I think that one of the things that is evolving actually is because I think DCF has recognized the number and type of reports that they get don't all fall into the need to kind of like launch an investigation, but are a situation like you're describing, like maybe the family needs some assistance and how do we assess the situation and try to get them the assistance that they need. So we actually made some changes to the statute a couple of years ago that they're in the process of implementing. And one of the things that this is highlighting for us is really the need for the department to be much more outward facing when it comes to reviewing what happens when you make a report and sort of the training aspects. And was it yesterday we were just talking about, geez, a video would be helpful for people to understand. And the department could do a video that could be part of the training aspect. And maybe they do that already. I'm not sure. But I feel like there's opportunity for folks out in the field, such as yourself and your colleagues to have more information about sort of what does happen. And it feels like y'all could be good feedback loop for the department in terms of systemic things that they are looking to want to improve. Sounds like you've got some good feedback for them. And they're in the room listening. So that's Yeah.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: No. We we really appreciate all the work that DCF does and all the constraints that they operate under. And we have a few DCF workers that we commonly work with because, you know, we we do have a handful of students that are attending our school and are, you know, in states custody. Mhmm. And always the the caseworkers that we work with are incredible. They carry so much. And, yeah, really, I mean, it's the same wish that I have for public schools, which is that, you know, we could see I think we would see amazing things happen if we pump some resources into our department of children and families and really helped with it. I know they have, like, turnover problems because the the work is very intense. It's it leads to a lot of burnout when you're carrying that much and seeing that much trauma, you know, front and center in your work every day. It leads to a lot of burnout. And so I think there's a lot of overlap between DCF and public schools in terms of things that would help us all do our jobs, you know, do the things that we love and that we're passionate about doing.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes. Thank you. Representative Bishop.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Thank you for this testimony. Earlier, you were talking about the conversations that take place should you, para, teacher, whoever, suspect abuse or neglect. And I'm wondering what you can tell us about to what degree are those conversations, what your school believes is best practice and how to address whether or not a report is made, how much of that reflects what happens in other schools to the best of your knowledge through your association? Just trying to get a sense as to that internal process as decision making is taking place

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: to the high school.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I'm gonna record it.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: Yeah. Sorry. The bell just rang, so there's gonna be, like, announcements.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I would be in high school again.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: Yeah. You guys, that sounds familiar? There might be one more too. There's a few different people that do announcements. But that's a great question. To the best of my knowledge, it's consistent across schools. And there's not I think we I think we do have language in our handbook about it, but that that's not crafted just by Lamoille North. I think it it goes to bigger legal statutes than that. Is that was that sort of question? Is it school specific or is it is it more of a statewide? Yeah.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: It it sounds like there's some consistency in the decision making process for reporting, and it's maybe part of, a set of model practices that it's made available to your school. Yeah, that's helpful.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: Yeah, I think in theory it should all be consistent across schools, but of course, you know, there's a lot of schools and a lot of different teams and there may be different interpretations of of things. So it's it's hard to say things are always a 100% consistent across schools, but I think in theory, they certainly should be.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Great. Anybody else have a question for Ian? Thanks very much. Thanks for your role in supporting kids in schools. And

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Of course. Yeah.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I know. I'm just saying, thanks for sticking with Vermont. Yeah.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: No, of course, I love it here. You guys for everything that you do and we'll be in touch. Thanks so much.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thanks again.

[Ian Trombilek, Counseling Director, Lamoille Union High School; Board/Advocacy Chair, Vermont School Counselor Association]: See you later.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, so why don't we stick with schools and invite Jay?

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: Good morning, everybody. Hey, the Volserbont Principles Association. I wanna mention that Ian's principal was a student of mine. Principal, As though, not a kid. And we never were able to get rid of the pink hats.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's That was unfair.

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: So for the background of Jay Nichols, senior executive director of Vermont Principles Association, In terms of the bill s 39 to pass the senate, my testimony today is about protecting children and students in our schools and making sure school employees know what they can and cannot do. So I listed the six purpose items under title thirty three forty nine eleven, which I know you guys are all well aware of. I'm not gonna read those. I'm gonna skip right past them so we can get into questions if you want. And then just say from there, I share the above purpose items because I want to make it clear that the Vermont Principals Association understands that the work of the folks at the Department of Children and Families extends way beyond what happens in and what is reported to school officials. That said, we know our members and the staff, the district staff member, they supervise play a key role in child welfare issues. As mandatory reporters, and more importantly, as adults who care deeply for the children they serve, our members and the staff they supervise recognize that our schools are key components of any reporting of potential child abuse and or neglect. We believe input from our members could be invaluable to the working group, and certainly is something the Vermont Principal Association would like to testify on once the working group makes any recommendations that might impact how schools interact with the shooting around reporting of child abuse and neglect concerns. And finally, as we all sort of seek to be part of the solution to any of this meaningful work, the BPA would be willing to name a representative for the working group should the Human Services Committee desire to make that addition to the composition of the working group. Okay, and then just about to jump right into questions and maybe clarify a few things that Ian said from more of a state perspective if you would like.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thanks, Jay. Yeah, I would be interested to know your perspective. What was he? What did he call it? Hold on. Vectors, what is a little bit more, is that a statewide thing?

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: It's not a statewide thing, although, and I got the full disclosures. I'm starting tenth year at BPA, so I haven't been a superintendent for ten years. When I left the superintendency, the district I was in was when first I put in Vector Solutions. And Vector Solutions is essentially an HR platform where there are videos people can watch, we had HHB training on there, blood borne pathogens, mandatory reporting. And so I don't know if every district in the state is using vector solutions or some other type of program. Back then, I know we were using it, but Essex had their own thing. I'm not really sure if everybody's using it or not. What I am sure of is that everybody does have some type of training on mandatory reporting. And I think it's pretty consistent. Typically, Vermont School Boards Insurance Trust underwrites that type of training because obviously they wanna They're thinking about for a liability. Yes, yes, exactly. Reliability perspective. So, usually it'll be the firm of Linden and Blackman. Sometimes districts will use other firms through that training and sometimes they'll use internal people. Could be a guidance director who's gone through some high levels of training. He or she might be training the rest of staff. Very important, especially when new teachers are being oriented and new staff members. And then we at the VPA, we run a course called Leading Vermont Schools for New Principals. About 200 and something principals have taken us so far. I'm the teacher of it. And we focus a lot on mandatory reporting and other requirements of law. To that end, the law changed, as you folks know, geez, it's probably been thirteen years or something where the standard now is a little bit higher in that we're encouraging people to make reports all the time. We're saying, we don't want to use your professional judgment. If there's anything that if it were true, even if you don't think it's true, that you think might rise to being suspicious if it were true, then report it and let the experts make the decision at DCF whether there's an investigation or not. And we would rather on that way. One of the things that we tell new principals all the time is maybe you make this report you're like, Well, it's really nothing. It's probably not gonna lead anywhere, but maybe there's a folder there of five other things that have happened with that family at a different school that they're at, or maybe not even related to school. And that might be enough for Esme to say, You know what? There's enough here where we really need to try to provide some resources for this family. Maybe not investigation, but just providing support for the family. So we tell our folks, Report or leave it to the experts, share your information truthfully with them, and then let them make the decisions. And we're pretty adamant about that at the BPA.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So one of the things that we were asking Ian is the training that's provided specific to Vermont law or sort of in general about your role as an education professional. And it's probably pretty consistent from state to state around education professionals being mandated reporters. Do you know from your experience about whether Ours

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: is specific to the state of Vermont. Vermont. What we do to the EPA. Yeah. The superintendent, we did what was specific to the state of Vermont. And so in the vector solutions type video that we use, it did talk about general signs of child abuse and how to respond to them. But then we work with them. We used to actually have DCF and Northwest Counseling come in and do the training with us so that the experts that we're dealing on a day to day basis, we're working with our teachers so that they have relationships with them. I don't know if every supervisor union or school district it that Is it that way? Yeah. But I think it's an issue that people are very aware of. Think there's more consistency across the state now than ever has been before. I think the more we can continue to lean into that, the better off it might be.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Go ahead, Bishop.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I'm curious what you might be able to share with us about what it looks like inside of school when there's a suspicion of something that may need to be reported, whether that's a parent, a teacher, whoever it may be. Are there model sets of rules or recommendations that someone puts out to school districts that they adopt? Yes. Okay.

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: So there are model templates. Schools will use them as procedures. And then there's model policy. Schools will set a policy based on state law. And then underneath that, they'll set procedures. Procedures used to have things in them like, for example, if you're a support staff professional and you're supervising a lunchroom and you hear something like that, the first thing you would have to do is report it to the guidance director or the principal, depending on the size of your school. And then there'd be a child protection team in the school that would meet, a lot less of that now. That stuff still happens, but since the law changed, it's been really clear that if I think something rises to the level of suspicion, I must report it. It used to be teachers were referred to the guidance counselor, guidance counselor would report it. And that was changed in a law, again, thirteen, fourteen years ago. We've interpreted that to mean anybody who has a reasonable suspicion, we tell them to report it. And if they have a conversation with three other people, we put all three of those names on the report that goes to DCF and make it really clear to them that these three people have reasonable suspicion based on what was told to them, even if they heard it second or third hand. You report it to me, I talk to you about it because you're my supervisor. You talk to the next person's supervisor, we're gonna have all those names on the report and send it in with the case number so that it's really clear that here are the people that knew about this situation and we're reporting it to you DCF and it's your decision where to go from And

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: a support staff who's maybe not used to dealing with this as frequently as a counselor may If they're the one making the report, what might that look like in the school setting? Are they sitting in a room with

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: the school counselor? Yeah, or the principal. Yeah. In smaller schools, when we have schools where there's no school counselor, he or she might only be there one or two days a week. If this happens, there's a twenty four hour window for the poor, so they may be sitting down with me as the principal from the principal level of small school. I would help that person make the report. Good question, thank you. Yep.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And I think the change that you're talking about is a change that was being referred to yesterday. And I think there's some folks at least who are wondering if that ended up being a change for the good or ended up resulting in unintended consequences. This whole sort of of reporters. And one of the questions that I have, because it's not really a defined term, but reasonable suspicion is a pretty broad term. And I think that we obviously on the side of child protection. And so I'm just wondering about what kind of, if you have any thoughts about how that gets interpreted at the local level. I think the

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: way it gets interpreted right now is that we really lean on the side. If there's any possible thing at all that might be there, we're gonna report it. Even if we personally ourselves don't believe there's anything there, we if think that a reasonable person would think that there could be just based on what was reported to us, we're gonna make the report. And fairness and disclosure, we are part of the people that are driving that. I mean, you remember what happened with Omaha, we had a principal who was arrested. There was a report that was made. The principal knew it was made and the state's attorney took action against the principal anyway because the principal himself did not make the report. Even though he met with state police, State police knew about it. They already started the investigation. He'd already met with the mother. He'd gotten the teacher out of the classroom. Did all those things correctly, but they took him to court. It went to court and it was a hung jury. And then the state's attorney decided to That particular I hope the state's attorney's district attorney, whatever, for that county decided to take him to court again. The principal had sentenced it, I'm just going retire, leave the field. And there was lots scared, I was not part of VP at the time. I was a superintendent. I had a lot of spirit of administrators because this person knew the report had been made, knew the state police was involved, knew DCF was involved, removed the teacher from the classroom, and yet he's spread across the front pages all across the bottom. And that scared us. That's a scary thing.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, represent Steady. How do schools know that the Vermont School Board's Insurance Trust offers the vector solutions training for free. How would a school know that?

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: Each school did Well, that's I'm almost a

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: 100 I'd like to know how

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: the 80 something percent, almost 90 Probably somewhere around 90% of schools belong to Vermont School Boards Insurance Trust. There's three or four districts that do not have their own private insurance company. And so, Vector Solutions is just one company that you could use. There are other companies that you could use that are HR platforms that provide you with different types of services. And VisVet helps push that out to schools. And when the Vermont School Boards Trust has a lot of free programs on the preventive side. I used

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: to go to school board.

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: Okay. But if you're one of those school districts that's not part of that, then I honestly don't know that.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: One thing. How do they know that Vic

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: how do schools know that Vectors is even exist?

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: The schools that belong to VisVet are told by VisVet, here's this program.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: They have to know managers

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: talk altogether. Yeah. I think that's correct. Don't quote me on that. I'm not sure of those two, three districts. Missisco, I used to be one of them up my way that wasn't a member. I think they are now part of this bit, but I think there's still a couple systems that are not part of this bit. And so, not really sure.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: How they find out about it.

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: Yeah. Business managers meet regularly. They meet monthly online. Occasionally, they come to our office conference room and they meet there, they meet together and superintendents meet a lot. So there's a lot of cross pollination sharing of ideas at that level.

[Ellen Amstetz, Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network]: That's good to know.

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: Yeah.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thanks. Jay, if we were thinking about adding somebody from the education world onto the actual committee. We have school guidance counselors, we have school nurses, we have principal association, superintendents association. I probably wouldn't be considering the school boards because I'm looking for people who are direct reports. And we only had one.

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: But you only had one.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Right. Because the group has to be manageable and there's a lot of organizations and individuals who are interested in So there's kind of like this two levels that consult with that we heard Ian talk about and the previous witness. And then people who are actually on the we talk about, are you sitting at the table or are you around the table? The people at the table. And I think that we feel like it's important for people who are actually mandated reporters to be at the table and also around the table. So I'm just trying to, if we had to choose one, what would be your recommendation?

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: If I was a superintendent, I would say it should be a principal. And I was a superintendent for a long time. Principals deal with us on a day to day basis. As a superintendent, I hardly ever dealt with this. I heard about it third hand. As a principal, I dealt with it every day. So, when I was in South Burlington, a really big school, constantly you're dealing with stuff like this. And guidance and that's the other thing too. Are supposed to use the word guidance in the house of that. School counselor, they don't only call guidance counselor. School counselor. I'm trying to retrain myself too.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. All

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: right. So, school counselors, I mean, they're obviously very important. If you're gonna have more than one person, I have one of them, but principals direct school counselors. So, of course, I'm biased because I represent my principal association. I

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: mean, I think you make a good point in terms of the sort of chain of command and who's involved on a

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: day to day basis. Superintendents were involved, I'd say them, but I think almost every superintendent would say, make more sense type of principal actually on a working group or somebody who looks they're not principal associates. I just happen to have something really good, not me, that could do it for you. Who was an elementary principal for seventeen years in Vermont, was Connecticut before that,

[DCF Family Services representative (name unknown)]: you'd be

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: willing to do it if

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: you choose to split something. Okay, other questions for Jay? Okay, thank you so much.

[Jay Nichols, Senior Executive Director, Vermont Principals Association]: Thank you for your work, Thank you. You.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Served with a lot of support.

[Charlie Gilserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: Thank you. Good morning. Charlie Gilserman, I'm the policy director at the Vermont Network Against Domestic and Zonestic Violence, and appreciate the opportunity to testify in support of S two thirty nine. Mandated reporting plays an important role in protecting children and youth and in the learning system to potential abuse. And at the same time, as you've heard from other witnesses, reporting is complex. While making a report can be an essential safety measure, it is not the only nor always the most effective way to support a victim. And the key is finding the right balance that best serves the unique needs of each individual youth. These complexities make mandatory reporting policies worthy of dedicated stakeholder discussion during the off session, especially as best practices and other states' approaches continue to evolve. As the committee considers the scope and priorities for the group, we do want to highlight two issues that we consistently hear from our field. The first is the need to balance mandatory reporting with access to confidential support. Despite being confidential crisis workers, most advocates supporting survivors of domestic and sexual violence are mandated reporters because their agencies receive Agency of Human Services funding. Victims of all ages benefit from confidential support, but youth often have little access to this confidentiality because most adults in their support network, from advocates to teachers, are mandated reporters. The fear of triggering an unwanted report can discourage some young people from asking for help, which ultimately undermines both their safety and their healing. The work group should consider how to maintain strong safety protections while also ensuring that youth have a pathway to confidential support, and whether older youth may require a differentiated approach in statute or rules. The second issue that we often hear about is how mandated reporting statutes and rules address peer to peer sexual harm among older youth. Peer to peer sexual harm, sexual violence perpetrated by an older youth against another youth is unfortunately common, And currently, these cases generally trigger an automatic report to DCF, regardless of whether DCF is the most appropriate entity to support that young victim. The working group should examine when this response or alternative supports might be appropriate and better meet the needs of youth. We appreciate your time and thoughtful consideration, and I would be happy to answer any questions.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's very succinct. Right to the point. Any questions? Yeah.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Under number one, your second paragraph, you're talking about the concerns about discouraging conversations and supports. Do you have any thoughts on how we strike that balance?

[Charlie Gilserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: Well, I think it is a great subject of conversation for the work group. And, yeah, I think it's worthy of stakeholder discussion. It's a really delicate balance. There are so many different needs at play. And there are also a lot of different kinds of situations that can fall under situations that would trigger a mandated report. So I do think that it is very critical for victims of all ages, including youth, to have access to confidential support, and how best to create those conditions for youth, I think, are best discussed off session.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Go ahead, Representative Cole. Thank you, Charlie. Thinking about model language to lift to a model policy that maybe isn't statute, but it's implemented in other settings, like, I don't know, in some of the networks locations, if they have stellar policies or even definitions. And I know we have to align, of course, with federal definitions and other things. Yeah, I feel like maybe we could find some kind of language there that has been proven successful with these groups.

[Charlie Gilserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: It's such a great question. As far as guidance for our member programs and how they approach mandated reporting, Upon hire, all advocates go through basic advocacy training. It's called the BATH, which includes training that the Vermont Network provides to member program staff on mandated reporting. And then, of course, those individual organizations provide other training to their staff as well. So I think one opportunity within this working group would be to take a look at those materials and think about how is this really playing out in the field. I also know that this is a topic of conversation that is happening in many states across the country. And I convene with policy directors that do similar work that I do who are taking a look at this and making reforms in their states. And so I think that's also another opportunity to go to them and collect feedback and ideas in the process of this working group to bring to Vermont.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Yeah,

[Charlie Gilserman, Policy Director, Vermont Network Against Domestic and Sexual Violence]: we've heard a lot from various witnesses about just the member list, both of the actual working group and the consulting. Do you have any suggestions there? Is there a group, like, a very obviously missing that we should be hearing from? Yeah, any thoughts there? I really appreciated this committee's discussion about potential actors and being thoughtful about who's at the table and around the table. So I'm grateful for that discussion. Beyond that, there's nothing that sticks out to me of a group or perspective that is really missing. But I think there are a lot of different perspectives from our field that I would want to do some really deep engagement with staff at our member programs to bring to the conversation in

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the work group. And I think that it's your network of folks that you interact with, I think are particularly important because they're people who've experienced these situations and the impact on the whole family and understanding the trauma and potential re traumatization. And one of the things that I think has been insightful in this discussion that we've heard from various witnesses is the need to be perhaps asking the task force, the working group to give us recommendations about having nuanced this a little bit more. How to fulfill our obligations around child safety and ensure that we do that, but also how to maybe, I'm just saying maybe, potentially have that, have some sort of way to recognize that might not be the best outcome. Even as I say that, I'm hesitating to say it, because I'm not really sure, which is I guess why we want all these people sitting around a table virtually or not to be thinking about it. But we've heard it over and over again from people, people who see these children and see the families. I'm sure if we had a DCF caseworker here, they would probably be saying the same thing, that there are situations that maybe got to a point that would have been better handled not with DCF. But I'm really not sure how to figure out how to balance that with the responsibility for child safety. But that's why we're gonna have a good group of people talking about it and trying to figure out what are other states doing? Because this isn't just a conversation we're having here in Vermont. It's happening all over the country. And are there ways for us to pick up on that? And I appreciated Matthew Bernstein's testimony yesterday saying, we really need to take one step back and look at the definitions and how do those definitions impact how things are reported and by whom and all of that kind of stuff. What you're saying is, I'm feeling that it's being supportive of what we've been hearing from other folks, the guidance counselor too today, just today. But we're also hearing that people are afraid not to report let that be DCF's decision. And maybe that's the right thing to do. I don't know. And maybe it is in some circumstances and maybe it's not in other circumstances. But then, what's heard from the VPA, a principal kind of got, felt like they were doing all the right things and all the right things happened for the child, but they didn't report directly. But I think also things have changed in that regard. I'm not sure we'd have a state's attorney doing the same thing, but they're all independently elected and they differ from county to county dramatically. So I'm not sure we can rely on that. So thank you for your recommendations around that we need to think about that. And your agreement to participate. Any other questions for Charlie and network? Awesome, thank you so much, Charlie. Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Okay, folks, we are just trying to think. Laurie, do you have any any additional testimony? I think we're moving to markup on this, though. Yeah. Markup. We have we're gonna be doing markup tomorrow with Michelle and on Friday with Michelle. We don't have any additional witnesses scheduled. Is there anybody that people want to hear from that we haven't heard from? And remember, we're not digging into all of the underlying stuff that we're just really talking about the work group and what's the act of the work group. So, now's the time to say if there's somebody else you want to hear from.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: I've expressed this before, and this is a very tricky area. Can share transparency about my passion of this particular area, but our mandated reporting statute is very explicit in exempting the clergy in confessional settings from mandated reporting statute and the rules that other people are governed by. So I just feel like because that is explicitly a piece outlined in our statute, I would love just a little bit of wisdom from people impacted because we do have a really hard history. I've personally been affected by this particular piece of history and yeah, hard to talk about, but just wanting a little bit of perspective there because I just feel like ignoring it is, especially when we have it in front of us, this is a really important opportunity.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Let's talk offline about how we might do that.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Yeah, and I've been reaching out to different people, I think, yeah, there's some good voices out there, but yeah, trying to get them in the room will be helpful. So I'll see how fast can we get up, but it's been a work in progress.

[DCF Family Services representative (name unknown)]: Okay, all right. Thank you.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you, Esme. Okay, all right, we're gonna take a break into