Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, welcome back to House Human Services. We are picking up on draft 3.1 of the Pre K Bill. And we are now joined by Ledge Council. And we are going to start going through this bill, really paragraph, section by section. And I think there'll be things that we have more questions about. But I am sensing a coalescence around sort of some general themes. And I feel like honestly, committee is actually in concert with the testimony that we have received so far. And the last bit of testimony we're going get is from the group of principals, school boards and superintendents next week. So we're gonna go with that. I'm gonna jump to a conclusion that they're gonna be similar, maybe not the same, but similar. So let's start on page one. Good place to start, right? So the change has already been made to is three or four years old, putting that back in. So let's just have I think that there's probably some coalescence around returning to not yet enrolled. That seemed to be what I saw people nodding their heads about and what we received in testimony.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I have a bobbing head. I'm not sure if I'm nodding or shaking.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Now's the opportunity to talk. Was convinced, let me just say, I was convinced by the, because I was in the enrolled camp, I'll be honest, which is why it appeared in this

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I was convinced by thinking about the developmentally different stages that children are, particularly at that very young age. I mean, all children develop at their own pace. But recognizing that and recognizing that it's not required, in kindergarten it's not required, that it seemed to be allowing that more flexibility was not harmful.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: That was part of it, kindergarten is not required, this is not required, is probably the most influential on my thinking. I was wondering if there was some other way to figure out for kids who may not five year olds who may not be ready, was there another way to determine rather than just parental choice? Because they don't necessarily give parental choice all the way through the rest of the system. If a kid was enrolled in EEE or other markers that we could use to determine whether it'd be appropriate for a five year old not to enroll in kindergarten. So that's kind of where my thought was. But I also understand that, if this isn't, kindergarten aren't required.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And there isn't any move to So do we're going to move that back, Beth, but it's not yet enrolled in kindergarten. Do people have any suggestions for the definition of pre K? Key there is obviously developmentally appropriate early development and learning and based upon our learning standards. I don't think we can come up with a better one, so let's not mess with it. Okay, good. Pre qualified provider, we'll get through to C. It essentially says, what are the qualifications? So that have to be the same as MC. Okay, so access to publicly funded pre K education. So all the witnesses have wanted to increase access. We have heard to be cautious about that and what that impact could be on childcare. What do you call them? Bands or whatever the tiers. The tiers, in terms of number of hours that you're eligible, what the need is defined as.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Sound like it's a

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: full time or part time.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Part time, for CCFH.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: For CCFH, okay. Like the certificate that they get for the number of hours.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes, yeah. Service need. Service need, yes. I will say that in the trying not to upset too much of the apple cart and knowing that one of the primary things that we wanna do is to equalize the payments between private and public. I'm willing to give on this at this point in time even though it's a goal.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Yeah, I mean I was thinking earlier when we were juggling the mountains, I think at that age, I think of it in terms of more than a half day is too much I think 20 a week ago is like 20 That's why I was asking what's a typical day? It'd probably be like fifteen hours a week would be a half day roughly. But then more recently I had the same thought you did is like, let's leave that stable among the things that we want to change.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Among the levers that we Right. I think that the secretary was forthright when she said we need to understand what it costs and pay what it costs. That

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: would be a big cost driver among others that we think are priority. And I don't see it

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: as What do other folks think about this? I agree with that.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Leave it alone.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, so we'll move that back to 10.

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: No question, Eric, go ahead. Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, just, I mean, the whole, there's just so much influx about how we are coming education. It's really hard to

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: do this or to I'm wondering if we could insert something that would say 15 if funds allow or something like that. Because one of the things that, and this is going be controversial, I know I'm going to put something out there that Doctor. Crossman is going to cross her eyes at probably. This is an equity issue again for me in terms of access. Right now, the way it's situated, any school district can put whatever it is that they want in their budget. And they can have whatever length of day, whatever length of a number of days. And this is a minimum. And should we be setting an absolute? I

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: would, but I don't think we can go there. I would, I'm voting for it. Yeah, would say this is what I just think that's part of how the scope of inequities have grown because areas that have been able to have been able to offer more out of their own funding and you know I don't want to say know decide to do more if that's the tension.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: How about no fewer than 10 and no more than 15?

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Yeah, that would be a

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: good I feel like we're wading into an area, however, where there are a number of things that differ from school district to district, and we're not equalizing those. And those impact the total ed fund. So Well, seems That's

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: what we're trying to fix.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Well, but we're fixing it in this one small area. And

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: No. I mean, the system has already told.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: I'd say not we're trying to fix it. As a whole, I think that's part of what's trying to be fixed is is the money

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: fewer than 10 and no more than 15.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Okay. Do

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: you want me to Well, this display from from getting this thought correct in my head. If we didn't move to categorical, they've kept it as a weight, then the school district can manage it within the budget they have per student and decide whether it's gonna be ten, fifteen, thirty hours a week.

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: This might

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: be an equity issue. Well, that's the equity issue. Yeah. Definitely If the school district, let's say

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: But they have the same funding. It's an equity it's a choice they make within the district, but all students, all districts are going to get per pupil through the foundation formula the same amounts. So

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: was a random

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: example. Wave of means seems to be committed to a categorical A. I think that one of the things about that is because of the mixed delivery system and ensuring that we are able to have the same payment to the public and the private. But I think that one of the things we need to ensure is that whatever categorical aid is included in the total cost of education, not an add on.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Correct.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. So And right

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: now, I'm sorry, but if you guys can remind me, we don't know right now how many hours the kids are getting across the state.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Only at one point, so I think that's And AMB doesn't have that information.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: And that's something that they're working on So I feel like it would be a little premature to make the change without having that data, because if we don't know, we're kind of guessing based on anecdotal. And if it's data that we're going to get, then we can make actual informed decisions based on what's happening, the reality is. Then we would know, is it our x percentage of schools offering or school districts offering thirty five hours, and it would give us geographic, is it a lower income area of the state that is offering less or you know what I mean? It's just like right now the answer

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: is yes. But that's

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: when more than just that next year. Sort of like

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes, I think you have to set the expectation, I guess, is what The expectation is, I mean, I would lay dollars to donuts or whatever that saying is, that we could identify the places where more is being offered. And I bet we would have do that with 90% accuracy.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Do you think that we've we've our hypothesis should be based upon need or the old borrowed old old phrase, the gold towns?

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Yes. Yeah.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Not only. Not not no. Not be all gold towns. And it would be that there would be my immigrant population, right, that's been identified. I think is one of the reasons that Winooski has full time, whatever, however that's defined in Winooski. But then

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: we would prohibit Winooski from offering more than fifteen hours.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: At least paid for by public

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Paid for by public dollars.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Where they could put in possibly public and sex spending if

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm just putting it out there as an issue, an equity issue. And it exacerbates, I think the equity issue even more. It's not just like, I'll use Franklin, I'm gonna move to Franklin in Greene, Ohio now because that's a place where we should be. And that's even closer proximity. Who knows? They could be all part of some region at some point in time. I don't know. So a kid who is growing up in St. Albans, because they're in St. Albans and their school district makes one choice, that's part of what this whole transformation is about, is trying to equalize educational opportunity. And if we just kind of continue to promote something that we know isn't inequitable, that we know is inequitable, I feel like we're just adding to that. But I'm struggling with the don't- Like meditate.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, don't like-

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Because, Doug, what I'm hearing you say is, so this is a totally random example. If one district wants to do full time pre K and another district says we want to put our allocation into having more languages for our high school students, they would be able to do that. And it's inequitable about money, but it's not equitable opportunities for the kids who then don't get any foreign languages versus I don't

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: think we're ever going to achieve equity in that way across the districts unless we're very standard. You offer French one, two, three. You offer Chinese one, two, three. You know, German, whatever, across every district, they're going to be district deviation.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Some. It's it's how how wide. I I mean, my problem, I try to listen and it impacts your biases some, but you

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: have core biases. I

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: think in terms of when I think of pre kindergarten as education oriented, and I know that it doesn't mean they're sitting there counting numbers on the blackboard, but still it's different from playtime, it's different from actual daycare. My gut is like, full day is too much. And I'm not saying that we need to make available, particularly for more needy, that they have available for a full day of something quality, but that might be half a day's worth of the affordability for getting quality daycare and half a day of pre K education.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I guess to the point that Rep. Garofano was making is we don't have the data and we've been moving somewhat based upon anecdotal. The example we have, to me, strikes me a district is doing something that is very supportive of the population in their community. I would hate to have we'd be upsetting that apple cart for some student population that I think is

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I don't disagree with that. I'm also going to encourage us all to think about a statewide system and not individual school districts. That's really hard. It's really hard to do, but we have to have a statewide systemic approach to whatever we put out. I'm going to propose for now that we keep this as status quo at ten and further conversation with JFO about study and sort of like, what are the questions we want them to, let's put that in the hopper as one of the questions. We keep track of the questions for JFO. So not change a cap at this point. Not change a cap at this point, but I think that concept the needs to be out there. So tell me the question for JFO. The question for JFO is essentially what would be the implications for current spending and future spending if there was no more than a cap. And then it does raise into question then if we're trying to equalize the payment for this, if it does end up being a categorical A, then you'd have to have differential if you're going with AOE saying you gotta pay the cost. Well, if they decide to do 10 and somebody else decides to do 15, if that's the upper limit, then you would have to have different costs for that. So, okay. All right. So we're gonna move on. If a parent or child chooses to enroll- Oh, and Beth, every time we say school district, can you add or future regional entity?

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. May I be so bold as to ask why?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Because I think that there's a possibility that they might not be called districts. And there's the possibility that, tell me the initials again. CISAs? Yeah, the CISAs. CISAs or BOCES or whatever variation on those initials that potentially end up in some kind of thing. I just want to allow for something that might not be called a school district.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Yeah. But is this ultimately gonna be a part of a bigger bill or is this gonna go on its own and go before

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: other Okay. Stuff is going be added to

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: So at that point, when those decisions are made, they just change the language rather than making it longer. That's fine.

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: I am happy to take direction from you and make that change. I would offer that I don't see any world in which a seesaw or your current BOCES, they're not governance units. So I don't imagine funds would flow through them and there would be enrollment or anything That's a point. I think you are very safe with the terms of the district.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Even in the district supervisory union debate?

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: Supervisory unions are also not units of governance. Are administrative units. Unified unions. Unified unions are school districts. Yes.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh, wow.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm so glad we're not the education committee. Yes. Okay.

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: I think you're very safe with the words.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. Are you gonna do something? Okay.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Judiciary. Okay.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: All right. Thank you. Okay. So I feel like we had the paid tuition question. So I think that where we're going to land on this is that we're going to land on a categorical grant. So would we still be saying paid tuition? Yes, because it

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: would be I mean, you can call it whatever you want, but I think the concept would remain the same of the school district gets the pot of money. They get the grant. And they get the grant, and then they are responsible for disseminating that money depending on the choice of the parent. And you can see here, they pay tuition to the pre qualified provider or the public school located outside of the district in one instance, or they just enrolled the child in their own school district, which automatically means they keep that money.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm just trying to be on the lookout for anything that might insert or assume a different level of payment. Absolutely. You know our intent about that. So you can be on the lookout for that. Absolutely. I'm there with you. All right. Are there any other questions or comments about that page? Yay, moved on to page three. Okay, so this is where we assign responsibility to the school district. I'll be honest, I haven't been convinced otherwise. I haven't either. I've just been convinced we need to pocket it.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: When I saw this language, have to say, when I was wondering whether you're offering these as alternatives because they seem to conflict with one another. The fur the two blocks of highlighted text. The three and four? Yeah. Three and four. They seem to be

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Say more. Yes.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: That's why I thought that too.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: In three, school districts shall be responsible for

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: For kids having access Yeah. Either by operating it Yeah.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Assisting. Uh-huh. And then that seems fairly close, I think, to what current model is.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Absolutely not.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: No. School district is

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: not responsible. The school district is not responsible.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Oh, yeah. I know that.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I should Okay. Then I guess I so this is adding basically, they must assist. So at least that's the change. They must assist as opposed to

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: No. They must No. They must responsible for insuring resident to that first sentence. And that's why number four is important. So number four means that if the supply is insufficient and there are more students who require access, that they have to do something about that. That's a big change.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Four, I definitely see as a big change. Three doesn't seem like, to me when I read it, didn't take it as far along as both of your Currently,

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: first part of three doesn't exist. It's not the school's responsibility to make sure that a child has access.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Right now, if you were to take that out, just the next part is what exists now. If requested by the parent, the school district makes a payment. That's all that exists now. The only thing that we're guaranteeing for people right now is that if you find pre K and you're accepted, it will pay ten hours.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: And I guess I was reading this new language in three as helping them find. And then in four, creating it if it doesn't exist.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think they go hand in hand because it gives them the responsibility for ensuring access in three. The first part of the sentence, the responsible opportunity or find a place who will do it.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: All right. Thank you, Bob.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: On that.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I was one last thing. I was reading the three as being more in line with moving forward that part of our discussion about having coordinators. That would be a step to help ensure you are assisting.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think three is more actually involved in that.

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: Would it be helpful on that end to numerically somehow connect it to? I know, I I know they're distinct, but to somehow indicate that they're very much together, even though because they are separate numbers.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I could just be the outlier in how I'm reading three, and I can accept that.

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: Like a three, a

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: They are

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: really the same thing, aren't they? My

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: other question too, you said on Friday or Tuesday, are we getting testimony from whom?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: The B. S. The superintendent, associates, and associates. So that will be

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: very interesting to hear their feedback on this particular part.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. Think that they will probably be against it unless it is funded. So that is the premise of all of this, is that it needs to be funded. We're not gonna be in charge of what the total dollar amount is here in this committee. Mean, think we have to understand and live with that.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: We're developing policy that we've

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We're developing policy that sets the stage for how that is considered. And this

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: is policy that's working well in parts of the state that's currently happening within existing funds, that school districts have managed to figure out how to do this on their own because they have prioritized ensuring because the language in existing Act 166 was kind of referencing that school districts, babies should be doing this, but it wasn't making mandatory. And when

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: you say this, you're talking about assisting families in Okay. Funding

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: When the supply isn't there, right?

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: Certain districts are doing that already voluntarily. And

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: they're getting together and collaborating and fundings a person that actually does that work. We'll work with the school districts, the community providers and families, and ensure that access is created and slots are there and people are connected. So we're saying that should happen statewide regionally. And

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: then someone else will

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: do Brenda?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Kind of made me think. So we said Windham has full time. They did when we passed Act 76. I don't know what they've done in the arts about it. They did three years ago. Full time they're getting fully funded? Well, that's a complicated question. Oh, I'm just wondering if I could be equitable to make everybody the same if they're getting more. Are being funded because they include it in their budget, in their operating budget that is approved by the voters in their school district, in their community, and that we all fund. Okay. So this would I remember Ray saying equitable. That really makes sense. That really makes sense. Now it's a game. So I'm going to move on to number. I think we don't have any issues. I don't think with line six through 10, that was if the that's current language. If the parent requests it to go to some other provider, as long as they're pre qualified, that can happen. I just didn't know organizationally that should be paragraph or not.

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: I'm sorry, where are you?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm on page three. Okay. Yep, still on page three. So, all right, let's move to four. Okay. So previously, you can see what is struck. Nothing in the section shall be construed to require the school district to do anything. Okay. We're changing that. Right. We are moving to, yes.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Everything in this section. We

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: are saying you shall begin to expand a program to satisfy the demand and may work in collaboration with AOE, AHS and BPF and other neighboring school districts and private providers.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: I just wonder if we wanna be a little bit more, and I'm not married to anything. Yeah. If we want to be a little bit more specific about this concept of a regional pre K coordinator, just because it's a concept that exists, it works well, we want to kind of give that outline of what that looks like, or just let them kind of try

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: and figure it out on them. I think that we know it's a good practice that's worked in areas. I don't think we require it, but I think we make a suggestion that school districts may, I can't think of the language we consider. Free cake coordination. Yeah. Something along those lines. I would stop short of making it a requirement. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I wonder if that works better up on line four, where it's within district or assisting a family through a regional pre k coordinator or other service or other means to identify a prequalified private employer.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think it applies to both. So maybe it's a separate thing that applies. We'll let Legg Council figure out how it should be incorporated. And you said school district, would it

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: be supervisory union? No, we're just

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: saying school district. We're being generic and using school district. Thank you.

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: I could complicate matters, but I'm not going to.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So now you said that. I

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: think we can figure out language for our pre K coordinator, absolutely. In fact, I think I've drafted some variation into that along the way, or we have drafted some variation along the way. The concept of regional is hard,

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: because a school district is a school district,

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: and we have 119 of them. So If you are comfortable letting me come back with a proposal understanding what your goal is, I may not use the word regional, because if a school district is holding that employee, it gets complicated with how many of them are there for a region, what is a region. Because we have some tiny school districts and we have some big geographic districts. So, I hear what you're saying about regional and the need for that.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: What is a region? Especially since it says the region. So I'm comfortable

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: deferring to you coming up with knowing what we're trying

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: to say. Because then you are welcome to be unhappy with and give me further.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Katie would tell you we don't lack for that. We back. Don't But I hear you. Okay, Dan?

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Nope, that

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: was it,

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: just that conversation.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Pre qualification. I don't think we're really, they have both said that they wanna continue to jointly manage that process. Anybody have any thoughts about prequalification?

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I do have a question, though, about when you just describing there, they want to jointly manage. And yeah, we're making it the responsibility, two paragraphs earlier, making it something, school district, which means agency of education. Will they come back and say that's not jointly managed well enough, or do we need to worry about that?

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: They just testified that they're in agreement

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: They're in agreement, but I sort of got the sense that we were sort of hoping that one or the other of these agencies will be the lead agency on being responsible for this. Can we secure that there's shared agency?

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: One of the things that, and I know, unfortunately, it's dependent on everything at LICA, it's dependent upon who's in what position at what Exactly. And right now at the head, they're working really well together. And there's this kind of like awesome team between Building Bright Futures and AOE and DCF and all the people in that sphere, I didn't see them needing any change of that.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: That's fine. I just wanna make sure that if we're sort of hoping that there's gonna be responsibility, I wouldn't want cracks to develop down the way that

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I can't do anything about.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Sure, yeah, get that. Yeah, certainly. Okay, so are there any thoughts? I'm gonna refer to our resident expert on the STARS program about what I don't know if there's been any change in this four and three since this was originally written. That was It's still all good. Yeah. Any feedback about that? Okay. So we're on line sixteen, two a. So just to refresh people's memory, this is keeping current, what is current, even though it's underlying. And later on in the bill, we talk about what goes into effect, which is having a teacher, which I'm sure we'll have delightful conversation about, but not this moment.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I like it better when I just have questions, not opinion.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: No, I'd like both. So, and then this is making it explicit. Remember, the current statute does not make it explicit that we are expecting a pre K licensed teacher in the classroom, whether it's in public school or private. And so we are saying, because this is a fact that we have, we know that all schools have collective bargaining agreements and they all require there to be licensed teachers in the classroom. So that's what we hear is saying. Any questions about that or comments? Only because I don't know, like a four star daycare. Do they have licensed teacher? Because I know-

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: They may or may

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: not. That's what would require them to. The yellow part under B is just talking about public schools, not childcare. Private pre K is line 16 through 18. Thank you. We went up there. Yes, we just went by it.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Just went

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: by Oh, we went by it. Yes. So licensed private providers right now, they need to have access to a licensed teacher. Someone needs to be in the building. They just need right. And then I'm not sure they have to be in the building all the time, but They don't have be in the classroom. That's what I was thinking. But we're gonna that. That's why I want to equalize the payments going to public Okay, and got it. Okay, all right. So we're now on page five. So I have questions about number three. So we're saying that you don't have to have a pre K license. I don't agree with that, believe it or not. Wait, what's your question? It just says they don't have to have a license. It just says they have to have early childhood. It says that is not licensed. So it envisions that they could be licensed. And if they're not licensed, they have to have regular active supervision and training from a teacher who is licensed and endorsed.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Is that how you get licensure? No. I mean, if you no. So it seems weird to me I that you

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: have big caveat that I'm not an expert in licensing because But I'm on the there's different requirements for a registered home provider versus a licensed home provider. The reimbursement rates are different. Not in pre K. Not in pre K, but I don't believe there's that many registered home providers that are UPK pre qualified.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I don't want a luggage there. Oh, you do?

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I thought some witness testimony seemed to imply that they thought there were, that usually it was in the home.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Licensed. So home providers are either registered or licensed.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We had some piece of data from one of our witnesses that showed us how many kids were getting pre K in family home care settings.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: But family home care settings can be registered or licensed. Right, right. So just because you're getting care in a family childcare home, it doesn't mean that it's a registered home. It may be a licensed home, which

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: has different requirements. So one, so you're actually even bringing in a number Right. Of So should they say licensed or registered Well, that's Yeah. So the concept here, we got two questions. So Ray just added another element. I think that they thought it was, I don't know what they thought when they put it together. So should it be registered and licensed home care provider? Or we should make sure we're using the right language. So maybe you could confirm Okay, thank you. And then the second question is, should they also be required to have a teaching license by some day in the future, Doug? That will be out there ways. It seems If they're gonna be paid the same thing as everybody else is getting.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I agree with that. Doesn't see it doesn't seem

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Can I steer you down?

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Good then.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: You're better than me probably.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I guess that's gonna get me back to my point about then maybe we have two levels of payment. If you're complying with the current requirements, you get something in line with what the current payment is, and you'll get an enhanced payment that is on par with the public school setting if you meet the new requirements. But I'm really concerned about driving people out of the business.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: I will do more work, more research on this section, because I think for me, I need to understand how many registered family childcare homes are UPK qualified. That's number one, because- Registered or licensed? Well, no, registered. Because then if we don't have any, or if we only have a few, a registered home provider, this would, like for me, this makes sense because a licensed home provider will have the requirements.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Let me come back to you.

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Did I try? Yes, maybe.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: So we know that childcare homes could be registered or licensed. So this Subdivision 3 just is covering registered homes. But if you look on page four, 2A, line 16, we talk about licensed providers. So that isn't just a center based program. That includes a licensed home. So there's a different standard You of question. Answered

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Exactly what

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: I was trying

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: to say. I can understand.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: No, that was me. Okay. Medicated today. Okay.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So it is just registered. This only applies to register, not licensed. I get it. But I'm going to come back to qualifications of a provider to provide high quality pre K is in the qualifications of the teacher. And so what we're saying then, absent the separate things, what we're saying is that kids were okay with a potentially lower, I don't wanna say quality, but- Qualified. A lower qualified individual in the family home care setting.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: But I wonder this is where we bring in what Doug was talking about is having a different rate for a registered. No.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: But what I'm saying is that are you okay with that? The concept that kids going to that setting are going to get a different service than kids going to this setting, and it's all called pre pay.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: I think in this case, might be irrelevant what I or we might be okay with. It's what the reality on the ground is. I think it's going to be really difficult to get registered home providers to get licenses, to become licensed educators. Think that's really going to impact the private sector. There's a lot of family child care homes that do not licensed. They don't want to do the extra work. Or not the extra work, but they have their business plan, and that's what they offer. So I think it's going to really upset the apple cart, going back to that conversation, if we now add this additional requirement. So this is a place where I see where we can say, okay, if this is where you want to be, we don't want you to go out of business because you don't want to become a licensed teacher or hire a licensed teacher, then you get a lower rate because those are the choices you're making, but make that transparent to families so they know that they have options. I mean, that's also kind of speaks to more of the, this is if we're committing to a mixed delivery system, a registered home is part of that mixed delivery system.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I guess that, and I will be making the reverse argument. I will be making the arguments that you're making right now. When we get to ECE, don't forget that argument. No, I totally agree Because that is I just think three ks is a different level. That's what I would like to

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: find out from the department. How many registered programs are you

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: gonna

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: So

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: we're gonna hold. We're gonna hold on that. Yeah, go ahead.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: And I think that if we're looking at increasing access by creating more, they're private or to bring it, have access to that workforce, setting it at the lower, you might have people open up a private provider where there is nothing right now.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, and I'm just wondering if we actually call it pre K or not. If you're not gonna have a licensed teacher.

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: That's valid.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We might call it something else. But then my guess is we're gonna get pushback from the education people about paying it with Ed Fund. So I just

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: need We to don't think UK dollars be going there anymore.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, and I think if we're setting the standard for pre K as being provided by licensed teachers, then it's not pre K.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: But previously the legislature previously said it or under contract with in getting the guidance and support. And I would hate to lose that.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, I'm understanding the dilemma. I'm just not hearing a recognition of the other dilemmas. So I appreciate the step factors.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: If we were gonna leave this My

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: thought is if we're gonna leave this as it is, the idea that you could essentially get pre K education, but not in a licensed place, that I would recommend that we suggest that rather than just getting supervision from a teacher that you actually get on a course, that you get on a track to become.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And that's what that mean, I think that there is probably sufficient information to say that there are people out there who do not want to do that. I'm not sure they are the people who are actually providing pre k. Yes. That's what I'm saying. Just saying that Yeah. Just registered folks. So we're gonna we're gonna move on from this one

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: Yeah. Because

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And then we'll get more information. Okay? To help us find out how much that is. Katie, we have moved back to ten hours a week on the next section on line 10.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Three on

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: page 10. Page 10. We're still on the same page, page five. Okay. Were you here when I said we have extra time till next week? No. We have extra time till next week. Okay. Okay. Yeah. We're gonna leave in, like, three minutes. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So let's just see if we can get through this page. That's number one, D1, the district paying tuition. And Beth is on the lookout for making sure that we're not saying things that can be interpreted as being paid different if you're private from public. I was concerned about the use of the word tuition, but she doesn't seem to be, so I'm going to let it go. Okay. If the pursuant to section C, make tuition better within the district's academic year. I don't think that we have any issues with that. Tuition paid at this section shall be at a statewide rate, which may be adjusted regionally. I think we need to put a big question mark about that because I asked this question yesterday. I have to ask ways and means. I'm not really sure what the A foundation formula, I envision the Agency of Education recommending dollar amount, but I envision the legislature, the general assembly approving it and appropriating funds for it. So I need to ask ways and means what they're thinking about that. And Coachella rates. Yes. Okay, let me make a note of it. Okay. And the district would then be paying tuition upon receiving notice from the parent or guardian, they admitted to a program or other district, and then enrollment in the district for purposes of budgeting. And this is where I think we take out average daily membership because we're not anticipating this being part of average daily membership. But I don't know if that is appropriate to take out. Who's on? It's

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: on page six now.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Jubilee. Jubilee. Jubilee. Jubilee. Okay. So if the I think that's something I'd like to ask JFO or Beth who knows more about that. Yes, I can answer that. But that's the

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: clause and determining average daily membership. Yeah. Don't know

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: if we're gonna if we're gonna have a categorical payment. Do do

[Rep. Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: they do we not take that

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Do we take that out? Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, we're going to pick this up again. Not tomorrow, though. Right, Laurie? What would I do without Laurie? I do not know the answer to that. No, unless house floor is really lower tomorrow, which I doubt. So we're going to be having an introduction to autopsy reports tomorrow. Oh, that's great. Like that. I always say.

[Rep. Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Good Friday, send it

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: out. When describe what we do in our committee, go from pre birth to after death. It happens. Okay. Thank you very much, Katie. That's all we're going to do on this, folks, And as of right I really am charging everybody over the weekend to read the bill in a lot of detail, to point out questions and keeping in mind where we're headed generally. And if you have proposals like language, Representative Bishop, if we have a proposal to make when we get to teacher qualifications and process to get there and all of that kind of stuff, it'd be helpful if you could work on some language for so people can consider not just your words, but in ears. If have a question,

[Beth (Legislative Counsel)]: come with a proposed answer.