Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Section one, you, instead of just having a strike through, wanted an affirmative statement. So now it reads the department shall not impose an asset limit for the purpose of initial and continuing eligibility for the Reach Up program. What we said. Okay. I don't think you had any changes to the Social Security section or unaccompanied youth sections. What's the problem?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: No. No. I'm sorry. We get to it? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'm just

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: okay. Alright.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I don't know. Did you miss something? I I I have to print it to see.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: But that link you're not talking about the language we just the reach up. Not the reach up. Okay. No. That's what I thought.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: No. I'm I'm looking ahead to it. Okay. Alright. Keep going, Katie. Keep going. Well, I'm sorry. That's okay. Been forwarded out.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So I'm on page 16, section nine, transport of children, transportation of children. This used to say mechanical restraints in the use in the transportation of children, so we removed that from the reader assistance. No changes in the definitions. Let's see. I and j had switched the wrong I and j in the wrong section, so I have now switched them back. In subsection K, the annual report, we had used the word minors, and we switched that back to children. So that appears four times. Section 12, page 23. This is where most of our changes are restraint and seclusion. No changes in the definitions. Oh, I lied. There is a change in the definition, page 24, subsection six, slide six. Seclusion means involuntary confinement of a child in a segregated room or area from which the child is prevented or from which the child reasonably believes that the child is prevented from leaving. Subsection G is on page 26. This is the timeframes. The committee decided to add restraint back into the third sentence. So the child shall not be held for more than one hour in restraint or seclusion. Am I missing it?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Restraint and. No, didn't miss it. Just said or.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: I'm 13.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, okay. So restraint and seclusion. It should be or otherwise there's Well, it says restraint and seclusion on both of the others above. So maybe we need to change it everywhere. Oh, yes,

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: they should all be or restraint. We don't want to say these things only have to happen if they're in both. Sinopenia, right. But

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: this is the transport.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: People see where this is happening on your iPads?

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. I'm sorry. If it's easier to watch me make the edit so you know they're there, I can

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I've we believe in. I think so.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: You're trustworthy.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I trust you. All

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: eyes are Just to make sure you appreciate it.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: If there are dates.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So in three places, we have restraint or seclusion. Those three sentences. Page 27, subsection I and J were flipped. This was the correct place to put them. J, we have some new language. The program or staff member using seclusion and physical restraint shall document its use and provide a copy of each reported use of seclusion or physical restraint, including a copy of any audio or visual recording to the commissioner. The audio or video shall be provided through secure means of transmission and shall include blurring to protect the identity of any other children in the program who are not in the custody of the department. I just wanna read that sentence.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. And there's one I sent one of those double emails. It it we wanted to include upon request.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: At the beginning of that sentence?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: A copy of any audio bit upon request or the beginning of the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: second request. That makes sense. Yeah.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, we don't want to have to automatically do all that. It's not, so

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: to speak. Can I ask a question also?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Why

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: are we saying physical restraint? Yeah, I think it should just be restraint.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, yes. Right there, line seven.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: And nine.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Seven and nine.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. I guess in theory it was because they are not permitted to use anything other than opacities, but it's good to be brought in. Okay,

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: so I've deleted it in three places. I feel like you should be watching

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: what I'm doing here.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: If you

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: feel comfortable, do whatever you want to do, Katie. You the sign in? Think I have it from this morning.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: This is the craziest thing. I'm on 7.1, and I have I, k, and no j in the middle. How mine doesn't show any Does

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: my my numbering might be off? No.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It says we I have a j.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: I have a j. Have I, j, k.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: I don't. Am I doing something wrong?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Are you on page 27?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Uh-huh.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: He's looking at it and he looked at it unless he

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Hold on.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Oh, wait. J. K.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh, got it. Got it. Okay. The

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: bottom of the J is a little cut off. That's why I have

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: other up. Yep, that's why. Thank you. Yep.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Logging in. Yeah. I have the other option beside it. That should test.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Read it.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. So this is where we are, and I'm adding just so you know what I'm doing, I'm putting the new changes in green to distinguish what we're doing right now and not lose what was new as of 07/2001. So you've just added this upon your plus. And was there something else? I'll take that a little bigger.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yes, sorry. Thank you.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: If I could request some help from the window ledge.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Yeah. I'm gonna push you.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Maybe lowering the shade a little bit of bank jersey.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Can we put it to be one or the eight?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: You go no. You do them both at the same time.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: That's tough.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Thanks. Sorry.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: While the window is happening, could I ask, Jay, line seven, the program or staff member using seclusion or restraint or and restraint? Or restraint.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: A lot easier. It was hurting my eyes.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: So maybe Derek can pick both because it's they're collecting data.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: I'll wait on this day until oops, sorry, copy.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm sorry, what are you waiting on?

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: I'm waiting on Jay.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We get a thumbs up for Conclusion or restraint, yes, and upon request, a copy of. And just so people know, this is something that the department has said that they cannot do, providers say they can't do. And so we are expressing what the policy is, but giving them a lead time. Two years is what we settled on. This section won't be effective for two years after the bill starts.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: For out of state. Out of state. You'll see that in the later Okay.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: I was like, no, this section is Yes. The later, the out of state. Oh, That's okay. So I'll keep moving. Sorry. Here here is l. So l is the section affected by the out of state. So right now, there's just a subdivision one and two. And then you'll see this amended again, this l two. The current two on your page will drop down and become three, and there'll be a new two that's being added in two years. Oh, okay. Is that not what you thought?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: No, I thought it was going to just be all there and then day of effectiveness, only that part only would take effect in two years. No, because Okay.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Alright. So that's the way I've effectuated it.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm not sure that I followed that. So would you just say it again? Because I'm not sure everybody was able to.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. So this L, this takes effect 01/01/2027. And this will be amended as of 07/01/2028. Question as to whether you meant 01/01/2029 to be two Yeah. Full But what will happen is that this two will drop down and become a number three, And there'll be a new number two that applies to contracting with out of state residential programs. And we'll take a look at that when we get there. But this is the section that's affected by the tiered time effective dates. So for the immediate future, L two, the department shall remove any Vermont child from risk of harm and shall initiate a section for alternative providers if an out of state residential provider is determined to be in violation of the standards in the contract regarding restraint and seclusion or in violation of its state licensing entity.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: And just to clarify her books, the reason that can go into effect immediately is because they put some things in the contract about restraint and seclusion currently. So those things would be in effect immediately in terms of safety of a child. But the new pieces are what would all be delayed for out of state.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: And then this M is highlighted because we've moved some pieces.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Sorry. One one tiny little thing. By eleven there, I think the comma after provider, the the first word is too much, should be removed.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: She'll initiate a search for a term branch, an out of state residential provider. Yeah. That's a surprise. Good catch. Good catch. Thank you. M, notwithstanding B, which is the prohibition, a child detained in a secure residential program may be restrained with mechanical restraints for a momentary initial hold to enable relocation of the child to a less restrictive method of intervention if necessitated to prevent serious and immediate harm to the child or others, except that under no circumstances shall a garment adjacent to the child's body that restricts freedom of movement or mobilizes or reduces the ability of a child to move the child's arms, legs, body, head be utilized. Bit of a run on sentence, but that's how those It two things fit works. Yeah. Oh, and we don't need this as a one anymore. I'm just double checking the people to make sure that they're

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: okay with that. That's relocating to the right To the right we already had. Yeah. Okay.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. So I think we just have the rest of this re lettered because we moved some sections. This top of page 30, this is a new section 13 to the bill. And this is where the amendment to L is happening that we just talked about. So just as I said before, what had been two drops down to be number three, and it's being treated as existing law because this will be in effect at the time this amendment occurs. And then there's a new subdivision two that's being added at a later date. And that says when contracting with an out of state program, the department shall include a requirement that the program adhere to the provisions of this section. That makes sense? And we can maybe fine tune the effective dates if I

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Because if you line 11, maybe you want to take that comment.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, yes. Thank you. Uh-huh. Yeah. Great. Okay. No, I get it. I think you have to see it to understand it. The section numbers, we added a section so that obviously impacted our numbering. Report children in correctional facilities. If you remember, is a work group and you wanted the per the young adult with lived experience to be appointed by the Office of the Child Youth and Family Advocate. That's on lines five and six. And then we have this per diem language. Members of the work group who are not participating in their professional capacity shall be entitled to per compensation and reimbursement of expenses as permitted by statute for not more than five meetings. That is a number I made up. I don't know if it's the right number. These payments shall be made from monies appropriated to the Office of Child Youth and Family Advocates. So it comes out of the advocate's budget.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Good?

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Renumbering 15 Second. Oh, yes, go

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: ahead, Just to clarify.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I saw your state

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: and name. I'm sorry, Matthew Joint Chief, Child Youth and Family Advocate Director of the songs. I thought we had talked about monies from our office going to just the

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: It is. Nobody else on that list. That's just generic language. There's nobody else on that list who will not be there in their professional capacity. So that's the only one it applies to. Yes. Understandable. Yes. Okay.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Section 15, no changes. Section 16, we have a sort of a similar change. Let's see. Bottom okay. What page am I on? Thirty four and thirty five. So g, I just made a a subdivision, g one, and I've added a two that members of the working group are not participating in their professional capacity shall be entitled per diem and reimbursement of expenses for not more than five meetings. That does track with what's up here, so that one is not made up. These payments shall be made for monies appropriated to the Department for Children and Families. Then we should look at effective dates. We have some numbering changes to reflect the new section being added. Subsection c, we're adding section two as the corresponding changes in definitions with section three so that those both of those pieces happen at the same time a year from now. Section 13, which is your change to that subsection l, I have that it's taking effect on 07/01/2028. When I was doing that, you had said two years, but I had forgotten that the restraint and seclusion actually takes effect 01/01/2027, not 07/01/2026. So if you wanted when do you want two years from? Two years from this is to enable them to negotiate contracts. So it doesn't really notice.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So it's July. Right. Okay. Great. So that works. So it works. Right. And and I will say, we never actually, I don't think we ever discussed implementation dates for at least the sections I worked on. I kind of just picked them out of what I thought. We talked about this one, but no, but about the other ones. Transportation, restraint and seclusion, all of the other ones in my various sections. And I kind of was just off the top of my head. So it sort of needs to cross check. My thought was the ones that require training and changes like that shouldn't start until I'm suggesting them as 01/01/2027, they involve rewriting some of the- They

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: have six months. Yeah. Yeah. Whereas the

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: reports and, yeah. So just to be clear

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: on that.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Thank you.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And yes, here's where the change in the title of

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: the bill comes. Yes. Alright.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. Are there any questions?

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Would this be version 7.2, Katie? I named it 8.1.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: I'm sorry, I missed Okay. Eight one. 8.1?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I read that. And I think the only thing is that Oh, with a couple of oars and the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: upon request. Put them in

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: green so I could find them again. So page 26, you have the three ors, restraint or seclusion in each of those sentences. Page 27, you have on line seven, seclusion or restraint. On line 10, you have upon request, comma. I think that was it.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Do have a question. See, I'm not comfortable voting on anything not knowing the money to the taxpayer. And I guess that's the way it's always been done that you vote on things without even knowing what it's gonna cost. I'm new, so I don't understand.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: The fiscal no is done after the They don't do it before because, one, they have limited staff, and they do it after there's been a vote on the policy by the committee so they understand what the vote has been. So they understand that we are adopting this policy. So they

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: can't really do it in advance of it. Because we might be still switching things that might impact the But once we vote, we gotta change it.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: That's what I don't understand.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Right, there I don't know.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: But it's before the floor vote.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It is before the floor vote, right. It is before the floor. I know, but I'm

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: not comfortable. Okay. Great. Thank you. Are there any other questions, comments? Make a comment.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Yeah, I'm just really proud and happy

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: that we're doing this. I think reading through the bill, every element, it just strikes me, we're preventing trauma and harm to youth in our state. And I know this bill would have changed my life. And I'm just really glad I got to be a part of it. I'm really glad all of you were willing to you've been working hard this week and showing up early. And so just really appreciative of you all and the contributions you've made to get us to this point. And to add

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: to that, I mean, I've been here a long time. And so many times in the first half of the biennium, there will be an issue that commended me to say, we need to follow-up on this. We're not gonna let this go, the restraint seclusion thing, the youth transition things. We're we're gonna do this. And then in the heat of the moment, next year, it just never happens. And so I just feel really grateful that leadership of our chair, that it was, yes, we we we are gonna do this, but we are gonna take up these parts. We're not going to forget what we said last year when we heard testimony and so forth. And we're going to work on it over the summer and we're going to put together. And for a while I was really scared that it just wasn't going to be able to happen because we had essential things, essential work to do. So I'm really grateful and excited about the improvement in the lives of kids that this bill is going to make.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: And my thing is, understand it's a very compassionate bill. My concern is taking parental rights away from a child that might have ran away just because they didn't want to do their housework or taking parental rights away from a child just because they didn't want to be there. I have big concerns, and the money really concerns me because we're causing so much homelessness and so many people moving out of Vermont because of affordability. And we have the biggest hearts and we do these wonderful compassionate bills, but it causes so much harm on the other end to the people paying for it. So I love the compassion,

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: but I won't be able

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: to vote for it without knowing the cost to the taxpayer. And if we're going to cause more homelessness because the kid's telling their friends, Hey, run away if you don't want to be there and you can get this stuff too. So I understand it, but there's always a domino effect to any I did the housing in 2014, it was probably a million dollars. Now it's 40,000,000. Everything has a trickle effect and a domino effect, and I'm old and seen it. So I love your compassion, but I have to think of what it will do to others.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: I

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: appreciate the fact that when we ended last session and I said to Anne in Jubilee, Will you work on this over the summer? It's not always fun to work on stuff over the summer, but you did that. And I do wanna throw out appreciation to the department for collaborating with us on this. And I realize this last piece that we added, they have not been 100% on. But I think giving it a significant lead time will enable the policy to be able to be enacted. And it didn't set well with me that we had certain protections for kids in state and then not for out of state, which is actually where you might need them more. So, okay. So I would entertain a motion to approve version 8.1, I think she said. Motion. Okay, we'll take a second, even though we said it again. There we go.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Okay, so

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: motion's been made to approve and seconded to approve version 8.1 of House Bill six fifty seven. Is there any discussion? And we haven't already had it. We need to repeat it. Okay. Clerk, please call the roll.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Representative Bishop? Yes. Representative Poll? Yes. Representative Donahue?

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Representative Eastes? Yes. Representative Garofano?

[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Representative Maguire? Yes. Representative McGill? Yes. Representative Nielsen?

[Todd Nielsen (Member)]: Yes.

[Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Representative Noyes? Yes. Representative Steady? No. Representative Wood?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes. Ten, one, 2.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, thank you. That was a lot of work and thanks so much to Katie for sticking with it and I'm gonna list Anne as the main reporter and then the three of you can work out who's gonna report on which sections of the bill. I think

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: we probably know who's gonna be I think that this

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: is a bill that has a lot of pertinent things, and I want people to be able to report on the things that they've worked on. Thank you so much, Katie.

[Katie (Legislative Counsel)]: You're welcome.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. As I said, we are going to recess now until 02:30. And we will be back at 02:30 to look at the Agency of Human Services comments, comments from the Vermont Network and excuse me. And