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[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Welcome back folks to House Human Services. We are taking out the H-six 57 which is the part of the included in the miscellaneous CCF bill which will hopefully be renamed in the future and we're just going to have some committee discussion about some updates that Rep. Donahue has had from conversations with other members and judiciary with
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: the sponsors of the bill. Right, Representative Rachaelson was the sponsor of the Solitary Confinement for children bill. So two things. Once it came up in committee a little bit about could the two be combined in some way? There's a lot of overlap. And I've done some work on that and it does work. And I've put hopefully the best of both. I actually have a very, very rough draft at this point, which we're gonna bounce around during town meeting week. But if anybody's highly interested in the wording there and all that, I'm happy to share that as long as you know it's an extremely rough draft. But the other there was a more substantive issue that came up, and that is representative Rachelson's bill really, it was clear it had to do with detention, which would mean the secure facility, red clover. But she was also trying to look at correctional facilities where minors are being held, which I think we probably all agree is really important, and it is totally part of what we're trying to get at. But given our timeframe, including that would mean it would be required to go to institutions and corrections. We have the testimony from Department of Corrections and so forth. And that's like a nonstarter. We can't do that if this bill is going to get through. We're pretty tight as it is. So what Representative Richardson is suggesting is that we not include that part, but have a report required back with a list of the defense and advocacy organizations part of a work group. The report come back from DCF and DOC about application of the same rules of the same statute to minors in DOC facilities. And regardless of what they say, it will give a head start on seeing what we can do next year on that specific issue. So that's the update. We're working on a few things where definitions had to be recrafted in terms of looking at existing definitions, maybe nationally, because there isn't anything in Vermont right now. And I had put in some sort of placeholders, but like what is the definition of secure transport, the issue that was raised including a definition of least restrictive, because that term is used in all these, even the National Juvenile Justice Committee and in the state and so forth. But like with secure transport, these things are used and they're never defined. So we're working on that over the break and representative Richelson has an intern which will also help and the office of youth and family advocates are also working on helping with the words methane and so forth and back meeting with them at noon, had lunch. So I think that's moving very well so that Tuesday morning when we come in, Katie will have everything we work on Monday when she's back and when we come back on Tuesday morning, it will be ready with I think a good draft that includes the consolidation, the deferring of the DOC part, and optimal language that combines the best of both and that does better definitions. It does include Representative Maguire, I think you were the
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: one who brought it
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: up, about Oh, the contracted. Contracted facilities, that the contracts the state makes with another entity must require compliance with all statutes so that it's not just implied, but it's directly there. And I think we tried to incorporate other, there were a few other comments that came up at that. Oh, least restrictive. We're working on that, having the clear definition of that. So that's the update. And as I say, anybody who has added thoughts or if you'd like the very rough scratch draft, it is tough. Get you firm. Remove this kind of scratched up.
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Something a little bit more organized. Something more readable.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Clarity. If a juvenile is charged with illicit offense in regards that warrants incarceration.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Mhmm.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Are is the expectation they have to follow the same as a juvenile that's in DCF custody and having behavioral issues?
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Well, there's a whole different there's federal law, and the federal law, for instance, requires a child, requires sight and sound separation from adult population. Yeah, you're okay with that. So that's what we need Department of Corrections input on, and DCF. What is the existing requirements? How can we create the kind of protections we want that are possible within, and also make sure that we're fully abiding with the justice departments.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Okay, then I guess I'm going with, are we looking for universal regulation across the board, whether it's No matter where they are. No matter what the is that what we're but looking to achieve?
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: There is a distinction made between youth in a residential facility and youth in a locked facility. And the idea would be we would like to have a uniform between locked DCF facility, which there's only one, the Red Clover, but that's a lot, between that and the correction system. Ideally, that would be, and that's what we're going to ask them to look at. Could this be, you know, could corrections Is that feasible? Handle it feasible? Is it feasible? And if not, what protections can we put for minors who are in, for, you know, 18 who are in the DOC facilities. But that's what we can ask them to come back to us with. So there are some additional things in the draft that can happen in a secure facility, but that may or may not be workable for VOC.
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: And we We have to get into that now.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: That's what they'll come back to us with. So this bill will only control DCF facilities. It will not touch
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: the achieve that. Right.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So it's not gonna achieve that this year.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Are you looking for conformity across facilities, or are you concerned about the ability of deals That is it'd be very difficult to achieve uniformity across because one has one separate from the other.
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: There's a
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: massive difference between somebody that or a youth that has been charged with a list of offense that warrants incarceration, so forth and so on, and a youth that may be dealing with behavioral issues, but has not done anything to that, they're to uniformly say, no, this isn't that's feasibly mixing
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: water with oil.
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, that's why I kind of like, sorry to interrupt you, but I like the report back because it kind of will give the stakeholders to go and really think about what is feasible and how can we put a system in place that will get close to what if it's not feasible, then what, like as you said, what protections can we give youth in a correctional facility that will make us feel satisfied that we are protecting them and isolating them?
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: I'd probably say that go ahead, I'm sorry.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Just to say, this will be a report from DCF and DOC. So they will be involved in the report back, not just add, it's a joint report on what is feasible, what is not. And then next year, it would be a whole issue to look at So nothing happens on that yet other than saying please look into this.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Yeah, I do know that the DOC probably has their protocols and procedures in place of management when juveniles are placed inside What facilities for the time those look like, I don't know. It also comes to the context of we don't have a, quote unquote, really juvenile system of criminal justice in regards to juvenile detention centers, things like that. It's under the custody and care of DCF. And so I guess my point being, yes, it's going to be very difficult to navigate those waters, because you could run into a predicament in which loss, significant liability.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, and one difficulties of right off the bat is these are relatively rare. So if there is a minor being held, being detained in an adult correctional facility, which they have to have the sight and sound, by definition of what is seclusion, by definition. It's being alone in a locked room. So, you know, that's Unintentional solitary confinement. Exactly. Right. Mandatory by the protective systems of the justice, you have to have them separate from everybody else, but then that means they're in solitary confinement. So all those things would have to be hammered out.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Because at this time, yeah, if a youth is held in a correctional facility, theoretically speaking, they are in solitary confinement.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Right, because it means you're alone in a locked space.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Because that's how it's gotta be. Yeah, because you
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: can't fix them with something.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: But purposely, it's a poem of saying, well, we may want to express that to why we do need a facility of that contact.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yep, yep. Raises a lot of really good important issues that we can't address now. So we'll hear back from those folks.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Yeah, guess just the point I'm getting at is, I noted this and I pretty much majority of this bill and pieces there. And we just got to be careful if we start integrating the two populations into one. Recognize that like when we have like not having a forensics unit and housing individuals that are under the custody of care and judiciary and possibly going through trial or incompetency due to an action that may have occurred and also integrating them in same facility with individuals that are in there because of behavioral schizophrenia, whatever it may be, it's really not an appropriate practice.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Well, we can discuss that offline. Yeah. I have thoughts about that area that had been We don't want to mix them with this issue.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: That's what I'm getting. I just want to see the things begin to integrate to where individuals could be placed in a position to pop.
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Any other discussion around this or question?
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So yeah, just let me know if you want the rough draft. I
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: want something to look forward to when we get back from break, so I'll hold up.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I want it now. Right? I want it over. No. I wanna, like, make it sound like it's being secret from the commit.
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: I would just be interested in opening up that.
[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Thank you for that work.
[Golrang "Rey" Garofano (Vice Chair)]: Thank you for that work. Okay. We have this afternoon, we have witnesses on part of the bill enabling unaccompanied homeless youth to obtain certain services without parental consent. So I think that's after lunch and I think we can break. Let's check back in around eleven to see if Madam Chair will want to have discussions about any other bills because I think yesterday there was a desire to have the more community discussion about the pre K because I think that's something that we need to work on, but we haven't really had a chance to, you know, of the conversations we had after the walkthrough was, what are we trying to, what is the goal? And I think that would warrant some further discussion and maybe talking about who should we hear from when we dig deeper into that.
[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So let's go