Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Good afternoon and welcome back to Health Human Services. Wednesday, February 11. We are picking up markup on an act relating to establishing the Vermont homelessness response continuum, affectionately known as seven sixty six for the moment, since it's a committee bill and we don't have a number yet. So Katie, you can join us whenever you get a chance. We left off discussions at the bottom of page 10, section 2,206, Shelter Services. And given that we don't have some committee members in the room, we'll kind of go section by section as we were doing yesterday and open it up to discussions, so folks who hopefully have had more time with the language can share their thoughts and we'll go from there. And as with yesterday, we'll allow comments from outside the room, but just raise your hand and wait to be recognized, and we'll open it up for that. So let's get started.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Hi, Anne McLennan, Office of Legislative Counsel. So here we are at the bottom of page 10 of draft 2.1. And here is section on shelter services followed by a section on specialized shelter services. The department shall determine the need for and develop shelter services accordingly, ensuring that shelter services meet the Department of Public Safety Vermont Fire and Building Code Safety Rules. To the extent funds are appropriated for this purpose, the Department shall enter into agreement with community partners for the provision of shelter services for not less than a minimum of a two year period.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Questions, comments.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: So the two year period,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I don't remember us ever, like in previous versions, iterations of this, has that been

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. That's new that the contract would be, actually, the agreement would be for at least a two year period with the providers.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Are we getting at any difference on that word, agreement versus contract?

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I remember last year when we worked on H91, I was specifically asked at one point to change contracting to agreements.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Most of the services in OEO are done through grants, so they're agreements rather than contracts. Contracts in state government, they are very different. A contract is, you get a deliverable at the end, a very specific list of things, if you have contract for IT service. Whereas a lot of the agreements with the service providers is to implement a program that you are giving the scope of. So I guess the question I would have for the department who's not here, is that a possibility because grants in state government are typically annual grants. So it's a technical question, but I don't know if that's a possibility. So I'll put that out now and someone can get back to us, like can state government ensure that we can get two year grants for these organizations and make that exemption?

[Unknown Nonprofit Provider (possibly 'Amy')]: I actually like the idea of more than one year period, because as a nonprofit operator, it adds a bit of stability to what you're doing, so you

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: might have

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: to guess every single year. Also the administration of

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the actual grant writing process would be reduced if you're doing that. Yeah,

[Unknown Nonprofit Provider (possibly 'Amy')]: and management issue.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: What were we working on?

[Unknown Committee Member]: The homelessness field, on the top

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: of page 11. That's what I thought, it's what I'd ask in case something would change. Any other comments?

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: I just wanted, I don't know, and Chad might have more to say about this, but I know he was in the middle of something, so I just wanted

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: to flag it while I

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: was here, that I did hear in one of the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: shelter providers saying that they just wanted

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: to make sure that whatever this was accounted for, that there's like a natural inflationary cost sometimes, and

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: that goes up a bit.

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: So I just knew that Chad was gonna build something, so

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: before you, I'll hurry up on the picture I closed.

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: Chad Simmons, Housing Homeless Council Lines, Vermont. Yes, we did include that in our memo. Okay.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thanks Brenda and Chad. We've had language in other journals previously to include an automatic inflationary increase. I had a note there, and we can talk about it more. I believe there's a memo coming from service providers about some of the reaction to some other language with feedback. So we'll get that out to the committee once we have it. I haven't had a chance to open my email yet. Okay, on to 20007 by thirty.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay, Specialized shelter services. The department shall determine the need for and develop specialized shelter services accordingly that meet the requirements of Section 2,206, to meet the prior section's requirements, and provide additional specialized services such as those that address substance use disorders, mental health conditions, or health care issues. The payment rate structure for specialized shelter services shall include a base rate and supplement payment.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I guess the question I have is that, are we leaving the rate to be determined by the department, or is that something we're going to lay out in the appropriations section? I don't know if anybody has the answer to that in the room.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Inclined to say that we should have legislative input on that. I don't know when we'll have sufficient information to do that. If it's done at the department or agency level, then I guess it has to meet certain requirements or else they won't find community partners who will free market if you will, community partners aren't gonna take a raid at $10 a head for a raid or something like that.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Any comments? I'm Sean Murdo for the record. We did submit a memo and I just want to flag, I think there's more language in section nine later in the bill about the payment rate structure, and we kept us on specific comments on that section, so I'm not sure what's more appropriate for you when you would like those in practice.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So we can go through and when we get there, if we get there today. So, go ahead, Brenda. So,

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: I guess that's probably what you're all saying and I'm like still having an asthma attack, so I'm still not with you. But the payment rate structure for specialist services, she'll include a base rate. So is that what you're all talking about, what that base rate would be? I thought so, because there would have to be a cap. I mean, when I first started this in 2014, I was paying 300 a night sometimes to house a family of seven because I couldn't find adjoining rooms and you couldn't separate kids from the parents. So it would have to be some kind

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: of guidance. And to be clear, I just want to make sure I understand, this is not for hotel rooms, right?

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Correct, this is specialized services. So this is saying that this would get a base rate probably somewhere in the ballpark of what was happening under 2,206, the regular shelter services. But then there would be an additional payment on top of that because of the specialized nature of those services for specialized populations. But it's not expansive beyond that, what those rates exactly would look like.

[Unknown Committee Member]: To your point of referencing the connection to twenty two point six, we don't actually reference a base rate. Is there an existing base rate?

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Not in this draft, no.

[Unknown Committee Member]: But your current existence,

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: current op world. That's a question for the field.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Yeah, I don't There is, so I guess I'm saying it seems like maybe you need a reference in 2206 about base rates. Maybe it's not.

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: What we recommended and our members recommend is that conversation in collaboration with OBGYN or the shelter partners to identify what that base rate would be and then communicate that back to the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: president. So I wonder, would we want to just put in the language that service providers will collaborate with the department to determine the base rate? Because we don't need to put the base rate in statute, we just need to know that the department is getting input from the stakeholders and the experts in the field in setting the base rate.

[Unknown Committee Member]: We have legislatively, if I'm understanding the history correctly, set the rate for the hotel payments.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: For the hotels, but this is different.

[Unknown Committee Member]: It is and it isn't. I guess I would think it's Yeah, I don't know whether the field or the department who's not here, whether they think they can come to an agreement on this term or whether we're needed, I guess. I'm not seeing a need that we have to be involved. The field and the department can't come to some agreement.

[Unknown Nonprofit Provider (possibly 'Amy')]: I think that I might suggest that the difference is that there are these buckets that we're gonna end up making recommendations about. And so it'll be up to the players to figure out inside those buckets of money what what can and can't work rather than a certain amount that's gonna be spent and then it's an over. Yeah. I mean, that it will have a certain amount in it in the bucket, but it's not prescribed. I hear what you're saying.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Would you like in the next draft a sentence that says community partners and DCS shall collaborate to establish a base rate for the services provided pursuant to this section, something general, and then

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think so. I'll leave at least. I'll remind you to keep talking about it. Okay. Can you go ahead?

[Unknown Committee Member]: Sorry, while

[Sean Murdo (Advocate/submitter of memo)]: you're on the language. One of the things that we'd like to request or at least highlight is that if the rate does not come to the hospital operating the shelter, but the shelter is a service provided on behalf of the state, That seems inappropriate. The bill specifically says later that the intention is not to cover the cost of operating the shelter. The rate is contended to do that, and we'd like to just put on record that we impose that. It should cover the costs. If the state is placing people in a shelter, they should pay the costs of operating the shelter.

[Unknown Committee Member]: So the intention with that is to not get ahead of where we are with current shelter providers. That current shelter providers who are receiving funds through HOP are funding their operations significantly through HOP, but also private fundraising grants, etcetera, outside of that. So if we take current HOP recipient, and they're only receiving, I'm going to make up figures, 65¢ on the dollar from state funding and they're getting the balance from fundraising, etcetera. Your new shelter is opening as a result of this legislation, they're getting a 100¢, a dollar on dollar, then we've created some inequity.

[Sean Murdo (Advocate/submitter of memo)]: We think everyone should get 100%. The reason that's happening is because of the government underfunded state, so you're forcing that to happen now.

[Unknown Committee Member]: We would agree. Yeah. And I'm not saying I disagree, but we're in, I guess I'm trying to figure out how this will work out with the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: With the appropriations.

[Unknown Committee Member]: With the appropriations.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: The resources that we have. We understand that

[Sean Murdo (Advocate/submitter of memo)]: we're just registering that as a state service provided on behalf of the state, probably mandated to someone, and yet the state won't pay for it.

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: Alex? I just wanted

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: to echo what our partner, Alex Crabless, the American Alex? I just wanted echo what our partners are saying. One of the questions that we have just around the shift of the GA program from benefit to a service provider in the community is kind of that loss of potential loss of the state's responsibility to provide those services. And so I think in order for us to also support a plan, we would need to make sure that it

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: does not, it could possibly not fall entirely on community factors. So just wanted to

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: echo what others are saying. Any other comments? So we went through, any other questions on twenty two-seven with the specialized

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Brenda? Yes. I'm trying to just, yeah.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The way I said it

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: in the memo is a little bit different than what I think I meant. But the specialized services, oh, maybe

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm reading the wrong part. Yeah, that's the wrong part. One question I have is, oh, go ahead, were you finished?

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: No, no,

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: no, I apologize,

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: I was

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: discussing So the wrong

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I just wonder if this is the right place for any involvement from other sister agencies and departments across AHS and that collaboration. Do we want to insert this sentence that talks about, DMH has a role here, Dale has a role here, right? If it's a specialized, VDH has a role here. If it's a specialized service that requires the expertise of those departments and agency, do we want that stated here, or do we want to just leave that up to the department to work out?

[Unknown Nonprofit Provider (possibly 'Amy')]: As far as payment is concerned?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Not really payment, just services. It's not just about the payments, it's about the provision of the service and who's all going to be involved in the So department,

[Unknown Nonprofit Provider (possibly 'Amy')]: department, comma, in consultation with them.

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: So Yeah. The

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: department is DCF, right? So consultation

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: with the agency, I would say. Agency or other departments of the agency, do you have a preference?

[Unknown Committee Member]: Being specific to other departments, we're not just talking about the secretaries.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, so other departments of the agency.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. On 08/1000, hotels and motels in support of services. It is the intent of the General Assembly to decrease reliance of hotel and motel rooms for emergency housing. However, until sufficient permanent affordable housing or shelter services are available, the use of hotel and motel services shall be permitted pursuant to subdivision 22053. That is Let's look at that. That is the language under emergency housing services. Remember, we had a list of one, two, and three. This is three, winter use of hotels and motels between December 1 and March 1. In Subsection B annually, as shelter capacity increases and the number of households experiencing homelessness decreases in each region of the state, use of hotel and motel rooms for emergency housing in that region shall decrease. This language is from H ninety one, if it looks familiar. Annually, as part of the Department's budget presentation, the department shall set goals for increased housing capacity, including permanent supportive housing, permanent affordable housing and shelter beds, some of which may be population specific, in addition to proposed corresponding decreases in the use of hotel and motel rooms. The Department shall provide data pertaining to the percentage of increased shelter capacity the previous fiscal year in each region and how that increase impacts the corresponding hotel and motel room usage for emergency housing in each region pursuant to this subsection for the purpose of informing regional planning and expectations.

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: I

[Unknown Committee Member]: have a question about this section. Does mention of Subdivision 222053 in this in the A, does that mean that hotel rooms are only allowed during winter weather?

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I don't know if that was what was intended, but that's the way I'm reading it now. So if that is not a victim of these intent. Yeah.

[Unknown Committee Member]: I don't believe that was the intent. That's not

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: my idea.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Then Then why don't I strike that clause out?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I mean, could we just leave twenty two zero five? Because

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I mean, twenty two zero five is broader. Cold weather, shelters, financial aid to municipalities is

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. So we have to strike it then. Okay.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Should I move on to subsection c? Have a question, Adam, for this chair? That's okay. Was waiting to take a week. Subsection.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Is there a cap on the number of hotels during the cold weather? This language does not create

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: a cap. So we need a cap.

[Unknown Nonprofit Provider (possibly 'Amy')]: And that's this this part right here isn't about cold weather.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. That's sort of what we're saying by getting rid of that cross reference. It's not about cold weather anymore.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Until we have sufficient other options that we will continue using the hotels and motels

[Unknown Nonprofit Provider (possibly 'Amy')]: Gentle, of tools

[Unknown Committee Member]: One of the tools. The chair mentioned there'll be a financial amount allocated for that purpose, which in essence serves as a cap.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Right, so once we get to the appropriations, each of these buckets will get an approval. We'll get a cap. We'll say X amount of money. Is it dollar amount cap?

[Unknown Committee Member]: Dollar amount cap for the funds allocated for that purpose. I think chair could speak for herself and she returned it, but I think the idea was to leave it flexible in that way, but firm with respect to the total dollars spent.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: So what you can talk. What happens if the dollar amount is gone by by it could be gone by with no cap. The dollar amount could be gone by the time winter exception comes. It could be used up. That question came up yesterday. Yeah.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And representative Wood's response at that time was that they would require to do some budgeting to make the money So it would defeat the purpose of having a new bill? Okay.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: It would defeat the purpose. It's to save taxpayer dollars. Just to create a program that eventually doesn't cost the taxpayers so much.

[Unknown Committee Member]: No. This it requires that department to budget within the firm amount that is allocated for that purpose, not an unlimited amount.

[Unknown Committee Member]: So

[Unknown Committee Member]: It doesn't

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: even during the cold winter months, if the money is gone, they won't be able to get a place.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So the department would have to do some projections, Brenda. They would have to do some projections and estimating on what they would estimate within that for the year. They submit their budget, which they already do a lot of that, because that's when they propose a budget, they're going to say, this is how much we spend on hotels, this is how much we want to spend on shelter development, on services, and etcetera. This just kind of brings all of it together under one umbrella.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: It is a concern though, to me, if they don't budget well and they run out of money right in the middle of 10 degree weather, Could be a problem. But I'm just throwing that out there. I mean, I'm actually thinking of the people that if we don't budge, we are not

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: there, whoever doesn't budge it well and uses up the money before the cold weather exception. So there's other mechanisms if we have an exception, like this year we had exceptionally cold January. So there's the BAA, there's the eBoard, there's other mechanisms to get funding in place if we have something that's unexpected from what they anticipate and what they projected. Anybody, committee members, I go outside the room? Oh, go ahead.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: I just wanted to take the opportunity to express support this section of the bell, or the caption I like this, especially with the deletion that you just made left off the other session, we think this is a great improvement on the current situation.

[Unknown Nonprofit Provider (possibly 'Amy')]: I do too.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: did you have something? Anne, do you know where we have I I just page 12. Right.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's something that I lost. Yeah. Know I

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: what I'm saying. I had a couple notes on 11/12, we can go back, I don't want to take this backwards just because I was

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We're doing to the twenty-two zero eight and eleven, if that's where you oh, okay. Before we

[Unknown Committee Member]: leave this section, if we are leaving, Katie, can you tell us what did you take from this conversation? Sure.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Let's see. In 2208, the only change I have is striking in subsection pursuant to subdivision 22,000 five(three) of this chapter.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: Oh, okay. That's one of my circled

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: facts. Okay.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: That's not Jubilee.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Jubilee. Jubilee. Yeah, good. Shall I keep going through this section?

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Subsection C was also in H91. This is saying that hotels and motels have to follow various rules for the program itself, but also lodging establishment rules and fire and safety rules. In subsection D, annually, the Department is to propose hotel and motel rates as part of its budget presentation for approval by the General Assembly. This is wrong. The Community Action Agency are no longer using Community Action Agency. They shall not pay or cause to be paid with state money as a per room per night basis that exceeds the rate approved by the general assembly. So

[Unknown Committee Member]: I

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: don't know

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: what the replacement would be there. Could be the department or community provider for AdLive.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Maybe actually, let's see.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: A community provider?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Correct. Okay.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then, I. E, this also was pulled from H 91. If a hotel or motel is being utilized, the department shall enter into an agreement with one or more community partners to provide relevant support services. And shall enter into agreements for the use of blocks of hotel and motel rooms and negotiate the conditions of use for those blocks, including access for providers of case management or other supportive services. Anne shall prioritize the use of hotel and hotel room agreements over individuals per room per night hotel and hotel room use unless it is not appropriate to a household's needs. And lastly, may use population specific placements to the extent certain populations are not isolated from the wider community served through this program.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Steady.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That looks familiar. Yeah. It was excellent. So

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: I'm wondering a couple things. Can there be language that ensures that the agreements between the hotels could be between the providers? Because they could give up we have to do to run it like a shelter and have a provider to do it. Because they're making more options for master leases and some flexibility, it could still keep it in the same confines financially. And then the other piece was, I think perhaps under this, would argue that there should be some reasonable accommodation language to ensure that people have access even though that should be there, so that it's necessary. And that,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And I think your point about some language that would explicitly say that the department can enter into agreement with a community provider to enter into have the hotels become a sub sub recipient, because that would address what Lily was talking about yesterday as to if we're envisioning this coming out of ESD and going into OEO, I don't know if OEO will have capacity to manage the hotel rooms and the provision of hotel and motel rooms. But if they can come to an agreement and give an agreement to community provider to do that on their behalf and ensure all the services are provided that we're envisioning.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: That would I guess Sort of be number two, saying shall enter into agreements or authorize a community partner to enter into agreement.

[Unknown Committee Member]: In the moment, I'm having some, a bit of a block here. We talked about entering into agreements for use of blocks of rooms, but then we're talking about per room per night, and we're expressing preference for agreements for blocks. I'm trying to figure out how those two work with one another and that the ease of things would be achieved by getting a block of rooms, but is that how we are most efficient using state dollars? I guess if we regularly know we need a block of 30 rooms, yes, an agreement is best. Is that what we're saying? But if the need is not known or consistent, night by night is the second best option?

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Third power I'm reading two. The two preferences, blocks. And then in three, they shall prioritize agreements, which I'm reading as block agreements, over individuals per room per night. Unless it's not appropriate. That's secondary.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: Yeah, I think we had really looked at the blocks last year in terms of the ability to function as a shelter program would,

[Unknown Committee Member]: with the

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: services there, the people not functioning as a whole being the preferred, and then if that's prioritized unless a specific household needs something.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: I actually did this when there was an emergency years ago, and I won't say the place because it's in Colchester, and I don't want to say the name for safety of people that are in this program. We did block, and this is what happened. We ended up owing them $10,000 and didn't use the broom. And I fought and fought and fought. I think I got a couple thousand off, but it did happen. And I had to give them can't remember, I think I negotiated $8,000 for rooms we never used. It was years ago. This is 2014. It was one of the floods or one of the emergencies we had, and were I wasn't there. Whoever did the emergency for the state blocked all these rooms, but I'm the one that paid them. And I tried to fight the best that could. I did get a couple thousand off. So it has happened in the past.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And the department can speak to this, but I think in the last several years, the use of blocks of brooms has been much more efficient

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Probably it's rest the right time.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And I think one of the reasons that the per night use is mentioned is sometimes a block of rooms is not going to work for the person's specific needs. So if it's a family and they need, or if they need special accommodations, they may need to find them another space. So we want to ensure that we don't tell the community that you're either going to be in this block of rooms in this location or we have nothing for you, even if that doesn't work for that individual. And I also just wanted to say that the other thing is that sometimes providers can get a lower rate than the state, and that's part of the reason that I think that that's critical. And the way I understood it, and maybe I'm wrong, that

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: within the block, you get 10 rooms, it can't be more than 800 So you would still be at that rate,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the block can't go up against all of that.

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: So that's why I understood it, but

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: maybe I'm Would anybody have this answer, maybe Brenda? How many motels, the one floor places, compared to hotels is there? How many hotels that you can do blocks do we have? Well,

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: in our experience, because we have sometimes rented a section of rooms, in our experience, you can do that at the motels as well. It's just a smaller block.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: It might Oh, motels are only one.

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: Right, but it might be like 10 rooms. Oh, okay. It's still, and- that's true. Okay. Different benefits, different kinds of restaurants.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: I just had it stuck in my head. It was only when you had the multi.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Did we change the community action agency language here yet? Oh, yes. Yeah, because I was looking at it and feeling like maybe we should talk about it a little bit more. So you're looking at D? Yep. Oh, yep. So we talked about changing it to a community provider. But as I sit here and listen to the conversation, I'm wondering if it should be something like the department or a community provider under contract. I know where it's supposed to say contract. An agreement with the department to provide this service.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. Because it's not necessarily all so many notes. Right. It did that. I guess I have a question about Part D1. It says, if a hotel or motel is being utilized, the department shot into an agreement with one or more community partners. So there, I would also say, I wonder if we want to bring in the rest of other departments and NHS. That's my first point. And second point, and this is just a question I have, is if a room is used that is not in the block or something that if someone finds a cheaper alternative, then how would that work as far as the services following?

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Okay, for

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: us, what we would do is we do that right now because we have clients all over the state and we providers that, work as a team, but we have providers that work in different areas. So whoever's in that area goes to multiple places, and that's what will always have to be what we do, because even if you have specialized disability services, some are gonna be scattered. So there is, I think that all the faculties that you need, I think it's critical to make sure that there's an agreement with a disability homelessness service provider. Who is a, that's their problem. So I just think that there's, I mean, don't know if you would say that in there, but that's what would happen. And I think that from what I've experienced, that CAPS would do that too, Good Sam would do that too, so in terms of following, but they're clients, unless they have a contract. I guess there has been an experience, sorry, I'm gonna backtrack that, there has been experiences where Pete went with the ERAP, where there was a contract at a specific hotel, and then the provider didn't necessarily follow people to other hotels and they left, so there might need to do

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: some- That's what I'm concerned, one second. So one thing I'm concerned about is the lack of kind of specificities around this coordination of services and limiting kind of overlap of, because in this vision, there is going to be many community providers that provide these services. So how do we ensure that there's no overlapping of services and services that are being offered are consistent across the state. So don't really have so far, I haven't really seen that. There's no systematized way of ensuring providing the relevant support services that they're consistent and feel the same for everybody. Well, think

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: that's the case management services that's touching on that and could maybe build on. I think that's where it's talking about a lead case management entity which might help do that. Back on E, I mean, think the confusion there is, I think E1 is under if the hotel or motel is being utilized, the department, which is that's any hotel room, that's not just affiliated with a block, that's Right. They have to and then we go into the block that could be done through an agency, which then presumably would be the same agency that's doing the support services. So I think those kind of need to be linked, maybe divided into I'm not sure how to structure it, but I'm just thinking that if under two, if under E2, it is an agency that is doing the agreement with the block, then they would presumably also be the Provider of the services. The community provider who is not itself, but who is the lead agency, and it's the lead agency that has to make sure all the other providers are involved, right? And you're further along under case management? Under case management, there's reference to each eligible household should be assigned a lead case management entity, which may be from any agency of human services department or a community partner. And I'm jumping to that only because it ties back to this.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, I feel like this section needs work. All of the E for me feels a little It needs more structure around it and more specifics on who's providing the supportive services and how do we ensure those services are consistent across the board. And then I also have a little bit of concern if, like to your point, Anne, if a community organization is the one that is contracting with the hotel, so they're then providing the hotel rooms and that same community organization might be providing the supportive services, then you're getting your housing and your services from the same organization, which I thought was not best practice. But that's what you're doing if you're running a shelter, you're providing the shelter and the services.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: We're trying to make the, at least with the block of rooms.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, think you want that.

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: Yeah, so I think these are really good questions and they are all around the existing system around like a continuum of care and coordinated entry service provider agreement. So all of the community providers agree to work together through those existing systems and then communicate through the local housing coalitions, the coordinated entry agencies, and then the continuum of care organizations all work together again. So in terms of providing the supportive services, there is collaboration and coordination as part of the existing coordinated entry structure.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Me somehow see that. Yeah, because she doesn't say that.

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: Yeah, so memo goes into kind of great detail around defining the system as an exist now, and I think Chittenden would identify that this is both creating a new continuum or system that allows for more collaboration for agencies and organizations that aren't currently able to access, as well as an existing system such as coordinated entry. So we recommend kind of aligning those definitions of what coordinated entry is with definitions, state existing definitions. And then those are all laid out in governance documents through the continuum of care and coordinated entry. And I would also mean that there's some gaps in that. And so I think your question is appropriate. And I think that's what this continuum is trying to do, solve the some of the gaps.

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: So we don't think it's best practice. I think as you know, and probably heard me testify multiple times to have both people in control of your housing or shelter also being people providing services. However, in shelter, there is housing case managements there and oftentimes, but I don't know that that has to be required. And one of the suggestions that we made in our memo is that, I will always say that we only support voluntary services, but if we're going to go forward with required services, that there at least is an agency for people experiencing homelessness to be able to choose who their immediate case manager is. And so

[Unknown Committee Member]: I

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: think that that's really critically important because what we've seen over and over again is that people who are refusing services really just need a different provider. So this gives people some, This would give people Our suggestion is giving some people some time to choose a lead case manager as long they can fit, as long as that case manager can fit them in and or choosing to be assigned one if they can't. So those are the things that I think, I don't think they have to be one or the other. I think it can be that somebody says, Look, I can't, that feels very uncomfortable to me. I'm gonna have a hard time being vulnerable and I would like to choose someone different, or this isn't working for me and I'm willing to do case management, but I would like to figure out if there's a different organization I can do it, but I can be able

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: to switch by their own choice.

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: I don't know if that

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: makes I think that's something we might wanna address in the case management services. Yeah, we did. Well, Jubilee's on though.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Oh, Jubilee's on,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: okay. Thank you. Go ahead. Thank you.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: I just wanted to go back to a previous point about you were saying consistent services across the state, and the caps were concerned that there wasn't any language in the bill that required regional equity of services. I'm not sure exactly where it fits in. We In our memo, we put it in a different section, but I think just because you're talking about it, I don't want to flag it. And we don't have specific language except just really thinking about equity across regions for access to different services. Also, I think, and you were talking about this earlier, if a person is moving around for whatever reason, like from one region to another, and they have a dedicated case manager, that just making sure that they still can get access to the services they need in whatever region they're moving into.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, I mean, I'm envisioning the department having a set of standards that have to be kind of met, that case management for this continuum of services requires that you do all these things?

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Yes, I think the concern, part of the concern is that largely due to a historic underfunding, some regions just don't have services available, maybe all regions, I'm not sure, has certain services. And so if there's not like some requirement for the department to address that, maybe with how they distribute funding or who they're making agreements with, then it could still leave gaps across the state. I

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: was just thinking about the needs assessment that the CAPs do and could that be a tool to kind of inform where the gaps are to help identify how or help the department allocate funding to underserved, more underserved, we know that's a term.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: I think it could, but that was not a popular idea last year.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you for pointing that out. Address. With just department or service providers? I mean, that would

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: be underlying foundation of H-ninety one. It's opposed by many.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Is it still opposed by many?

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: I would have to check with my mother next, their level of understanding of the different proposals that's on the table.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So my point of, and I'm sorry I forgot that detail from page 91, but if we already have a tool that is being developed that could help us identify some gaps, maybe we use that with some additional input. I don't know, maybe there's some way to include some other stakeholder feedback into that assessment, but it feels like if we already have an assessment that might identify gaps, why are we going to

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: have the department do something different or something duplicative? I think that another possibility is if the community sticks with the idea of one big continuum of care, perhaps that's where the assessment would happen, is all of the relevant stakeholders, I think, would be involved there. And I think there's already a structure and a process for that to happen. And so if it were a statewide organization and they weren't doing that assessment statewide, that might be the place.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So Katie, I think we want have a placeholder and I don't know where we go, but about kind of a needs assessment to identify gaps to ensure regional equity for service provision, right?

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: This could be a subpart under the case management.

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: Go ahead. I know that this has been taken off the table, but I'm just suggesting that the other thing that was suggested by our coalition was independent study, and independent studies give better data because they are not related to your housing, and that could help identify with a public health researcher that could actually help identify gaps that are, I think, in a very strong way. So I just want to put one more plug in for that. Would

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this be ongoing or would it be a one time assessment?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It would have to be ongoing, but I don't know if it needs to be annual. So that's to be just like, I don't know, maybe every three years.

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: Structured like other needs assessments. Yeah. Our state housing needs assessment is every five years.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, every three to five years.

[Unknown Committee Member]: Is this something we'd want to put under Section eight Specific General Assistance Program report? Well,

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: if you're separating housing from general assistance, don't think you'd want to put it back in that. I'll play with it and see if there's a No, that's really

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: You know what we're Yeah.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Who is doing the needs assessment? Is DCF contracting for it? Is DCF doing it?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: DCF is not doing it. Well, DCF could do it in collaboration with all the right players. Could I think to be determined.

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. That's Why don't I write it as DCF to to contract? Then if you a question. Then you can change it.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Okay. Quick question for Amy. He said there's already infrastructure we have for our department. My understanding of the continuum of care is that they have a structure for assessing all the needs and sort of thinking about how things should flow. I'm member of the community of care, I'm not just me. This is how it's been described to me. And so perhaps, if that is true and they agree, that might be the place where it would be really all the key players.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Right, they would lead

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: it with input from some

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: of the other organizations mistake holders. I understand,

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: I think there's like a voting process and everything, that it's like a democratic sort of process.

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: Would need to confirm, and I don't have it at my fingertips right

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: now. Okay. So we'll leave that as a placeholder. Right now, we'll keep it as DCF will contract with an organization.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: Oh,

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: you're writing it in, it's not here right now, right? That's something new?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, so I'm thinking we should stop before twenty-two zero nine, we've got a little, we're fifteen minutes to get to the floor, the permanent supportive house. Is there any other questions in this section before we wrap up?

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It sounded like you wanted to restructure Subsection E. I don't know that I have quite enough to go in at the moment. It sounds like maybe there's more conversation required. Just flag that that is an area. That is a section under construction still.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Now folks. Alright, so we're gonna stop before two thousand two hundred nine and I thought someone Theresa signed 02/1100 for language for that. He asked yesterday if anyone had '22 or

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: '22.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Were you going to come up with permanent supportive housing services? Like that was question two zero nine. Was that your assignment? I heard Theresa talk about it yesterday, but I don't remember exactly who she assigned it to or just let me know. Did she just throw it out?

[Unknown Committee Member]: Yeah, I think she I said I would follow-up on the kind of diversion intervention and possible third term stuff, which I did do and sent to her and you.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So I'll re throw it out to everyone in the room and everyone listening. We use some feedback and language around what is permanent supportive housing services. I just wanted to clarify that a CAP student who was non suggestion in their memo. Okay.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: So we don't think it's necessarily a complete answer.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It's a good starting point. It's nice to hear that.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: We also release the bladder, not many, which is some suggestive. Okay,

[Brenda Siegel (Homelessness advocate)]: And I sent him from an emblemasis from that.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: I didn't get yours, promise. I

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: didn't get yours. I saw This

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: all happened today and it's obviously about, I haven't had time to look at emails, so between tonight and tomorrow, you're going to receive some feedback from all these organizations on the language we have so far, with some recommendations that so when we pull that markup on this, we can, by then, we'll have those memos and we can sit there and judge them. We are picking

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: smarts up.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I have disability when we're turning.

[Unknown (committee member/participant)]: I'm sorry to hear you.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, I think that's a wrap for today. Thank you all, we're on the floor for minutes. I don't have the agenda for anything. So we're picking up 08:60 tomorrow and it says

[Chad Simmons (Vermont Coalition to End Homelessness)]: that they

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: feel good but I

[Anne McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: don't think we're there yet.