Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Hey, good afternoon, folks. What's up? Okay.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Welcome back

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: to another week at State House. I'm gonna say it's week six already. I said, Joanna, I can't I believe don't know, I haven't counted, but that sounds about right. It does, and it's making me very nervous because we still have a lot of work to do before it cross over. So I am gonna give fair warning that there might be longer days as next week and the week after as we're moving into town meeting break. I would like to have a good chunk of what we need to get done by crossover, hopefully contained in those two weeks, but we'll see. Just a couple of updates. Have tomorrow morning, I just wanna make sure that you saw on the agenda that the first forty five minutes is gonna be work time, budget work time, because it was kind of an odd time to get a witness in honestly, and then switch over to recovery day. We'll be in a joint hearing with Senate Health and Welfare downstairs in Room 10. So just to be aware of that. It's also Disability Advocacy Day in the State House tomorrow. Those two things that are happening. We're going to work on H-six 60. My goal is to vote that out this week. I will say there's some complicating factors on H-six 60. One being making sure we understand, and we may have to

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: have the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: department testify. There was money in the Rural Health Transformation Grant for recovery residences. We have an email. Did she send

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: that to everybody? Don't know

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: if she sent it to everybody. He may forward it. Oh, Jubilee wants a Zoom link. That's the Oh, you got it. Okay. Thanks.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: 660. I think

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I'm bring trying my blanket.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes. I'm not cold today, Sophie. It's just that lower again. Okay, I'm gonna forward it to you because actually she didn't send it to everybody. So there's information about how the Rural Health Transformation Grant dovetails with this. I think we'll want to be able to ask some questions about that. The other thing I've been made aware of is that the Overdose Prevention Center, the city of Burlington, which you might recall on June, the OPC was there was no funding allocated for that in either the department's or the advisory committee's recommendations. But they have been in touch, honestly, think they were kind of a little bit late to the game. They should have been in touch with the advisory committee and submitted a proposal back when the committee was accepting proposals. In any event, it is one of the four items that we have committed to ongoing funding of, as long as the funding continues. So they are likely going to be presenting some information. And I think I sent to everybody, I forwarded a copy of the update that was provided by Tom Dalton, who is the contractor that's been selected by the city of Burlington. So you should see that. And I understand that that will be followed up with additional information that will contain some costs and sort of other updates. So I just wanted to make you aware of that because something that I was hoping was gonna be fairly straightforward is turning to be less straightforward. But the goal is still to get it out by the end of the week. So if there's any testimony we need to take, I do want to note that we have, and I'm saying it out loud again today, I'll say it several times, that we're not taking any testimony from any of the proposal people or entities, but I've told them they can submit something in writing. And the city of Burlington is no different. So we won't be taking any verbal testimony from them. But if they have something in writing, then we will take a look at it and make a decision about whether we will put anything in or not. Yeah, go ahead.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Regarding the Burlington OPC, our recollection is we had discussion last year about whether funds already allocated had been spent. We anticipate that the financials for good still going to receive or have yet to receive from them will not only be what they think their budget is and their needs for the year ahead, but will we reflect back on what has been or has not been spent?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Pretty much said that that would be a requirement. Yes. And as you recall, we did not put any money in whatever bill, I don't remember the number of it, last year that was passed out of here. We put language that said they could come back for BAA. The Appropriations Committee added it in. So they got the second, they've now had $2,200,000 And so a lot of money to be out there without anything back yet other than a nice update from Tom, but we will be requiring more in order to make any kind of recommendation. So I just wanted to update folks on that development. And I'm just checking in. Let me know if you want to hear more from the department about how the Rural Health Transformation dovetails with the request for opioid settlement funds for recovery residences. They have adjusted their request. And so we'll take a look at that. They've eliminated, I think, number five, but they've combined two other ones. So take a look at that. Okay? So we're gonna move to now I'm gonna just call it 766 because that's an easier thing to do. First thing I want to say is, Katie, why don't you join us if you're able to do that? Is that this is still a work in progress. Obviously, it's not at its finish point. It won't be until we're all done with it as group. But even in my work with Eric and Katie over the weekend, I ran out of steam last night. I want to extend my appreciation to Katie because I of threw a lot at her and appreciate. I just appreciate you, so we can all feel. So let's take a stab at this. Oh, did we meet since I met with them? No, we didn't meet as a committee. So let me update you on what happened on Friday. So on Friday, Eric and I met with the advocates and providers to review sort of a construct of a continuum of services and supports and essentially the sunsetting and the transfer elimination of the GA housing benefit as it stands separate and aside, and, essentially looking at that as part of a continuum of services and supports. And got some feedback. HHS AB has also sent some additional information, which I'm pretty sure I forwarded to everybody. Then also, I think it was the other way around. I can't remember who we met with first, but met with the department and HS representatives, talked about the concept. I think they're not gonna commit to anything until they see something in writing, which I wouldn't either if I were sitting in their shoes. Just me talking, that would be insufficient for me as well. But in general, I would say I felt like we got head nods in terms of the direction that we're heading or that I've laid out to you verbally, and now we're going to start to take a look at in words. But obviously, the proof's in the pudding and have asked DCF that they will be here. And thank you for being here in the room. Appreciate it. And this is a bill that has a lot of interested individuals. And so I'm going do something that I don't normally do. And as we're discussing it as a committee, I am going to enable people to ask questions from the side because that will help us, I think, work through the bill and the language and help to identify things that need tweaking or that people don't like, and we may still agree to do. So just be aware of that. But people sitting around the side just want you to know, you do have to ask to be recognized before you just kind of pop in. Okay? And I may say no, but I'm just letting you know that it's possible.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: May call on you. You can talk, but I will control.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Right, exactly. Vice chair said, you can talk, but I'm gonna control when that happens. All right, we'll have a free for all if I don't do that. Okay. All right. So let's get started. And so I took a look at 594. I took a look at 91. I looked at all of our conversations. I really was reflecting on the history that we've had over the past many years, actually, and tried to work on something that was going to be as concise as possible, but that also provided the kind of direction that we were looking for. So you will see, I significantly reduced the number of findings. I significantly reduced the purpose section, ninety one and five ninety four kind of went on for quite a while about those. Tried to really, most cogent thing for me is the number of people who are homeless and that we still have a housing crisis. And so putting the data in about that. Katie, do have the numbers from December now. I just gotta fill them in for you. Actually, think have numbers from January now. This is where I'm gonna ask for a question. Was the number you sent me, Chad, from January or was that from?

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Chad Simmons.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: December. What do I work for again? Was in on this list a lot in front of mine. Those were for December.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: December, okay, that's fine. That's fine, yeah. So I'll get that to you, Katie. Okay. Trying to do three things at the same time. Okay. So I realize this is something that you all have just had a chance to look at if you realized it was there this morning. If not, this will be our go through it line by line time.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Adam Cherry, your statement about questions, is that questions at the end or questions as we go along?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: For our committee members? This is discussion, so committee members can do it anytime. So one of the things is it has a new name, homeless response continuum. Homeless response continuum. You do? Oh, okay. I kind of wanted to bring back B. T, to be honest. And I felt like I had too much baggage.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, shorter and saying exactly what it is, I think.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And I felt like you can say B. H. R. C.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Because Yeah. That's how it'll end

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: up being referred to. Any

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: questions about that? Any questions about the general statement of purpose of the bill? Oh, thanks. Actually, I'm just thinking, because this is the first time you've seen language, I think we should actually have Katie go through the language. I'm missing a step.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I think that was a good- you've seen it before.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I have, right, I know. So that's what I'm just realizing. I've seen it, I've been reading it. Zon, do you want to ask your question now?

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: No, wait till we get to line seven.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And after we get to line seven, okay. Okay.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I'm going to skip over this statement of purpose maybe for the moment. Sometimes I like to do that as the very last thing after I know what the content of the bill is. And then I'll

[Esme Cole (Member)]: get back up and say

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: what the statement of purpose is. So maybe we'll flag that to circle back to. So findings, two findings. The general assembly finds that according to the Vermont Homeless Management Information System, as of December 2025, there were x number of individuals who are homeless in the state and x number of whom are children. So those are TBD. So I have a

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: question, and this is for people around the room, and Jubilee is on now. So the HMIS tracks individuals who are 24 and under as youth or children. And this says eight It doesn't say it right there, but I think there's a definition of a difference There are children that defines it as 18. So that's sort of a I'm interested in feedback around that. I would

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: just say youth or children.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, go ahead, 18

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: 24 year olds are their own kind of category. They can still be considered for other housing opportunities that are available to any adult. The problem is the way they kind of prioritize and score because of their age. They're not, know, it's hard to get that chronically homeless level of need. So they're in there, they're not treated any differently. And then those who are 18, who kind of aren't with their household, it's in there, but it's not viewable by only very limited people. So I think that but being over 18 and on there is fine. I'm sorry

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: No, if I'm not making that's okay. So I think that given the fact that we have a definition for children, we say we don't have a definite for You

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: do, but the So you have a definition. Sorry to interrupt. I haven't introduced myself. Did I? I'm Office of Legislative Counsel. You have a definition of minor child, but that is for this the chapter you're creating in the green books. This is outside of that chapter, so it wouldn't apply. So whatever you do here could be separate from what you're doing in the definition section.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I don't think we want it to be, I don't think. They would definitely be counted in the total number. And so then I think we'll stick with 18 or 18 for the who were children.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: That's a number we have? Yes. 18. Chad got it to me.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. Esme, and then I'll take a question for Brenda.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: Sure, one thing I'm thinking about here with this section is that I think, through all our discussions, part of the purpose is to expand HMIS usage. And so one thing this part leaves out is it's almost seeming that we're just dealing with the ones who are enrolled in HMIS already because we're talking about the ones already enrolled in HMIS. So I wonder if there'd be a little bit of language that we could add to say, all folks experiencing homelessness are being tracked currently, and that's not the best way to put it. I know what it is. Yeah. So like this does not encapsulate the reality of the population that we're dealing with, but it's where we're starting from and where we hope to expand. So in terms of better service I provision and

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: think that we can get to that, but not here. Okay. Because this is a finding, so it has to be backed up by data. Yeah. All it would be. That's all right, Brenda.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: I was just wondering on the children, school age children are usually still 18. So I'm wondering if they're 18 and under or below 19. That's also how it's just because they're still potentially receiving

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: support from

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: the school system.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Well, kids can receive support through their 20 birthday, so. That's true. Thank you. Okay. So not in the findings section, but I think that it's important to make sure that we underscore that. So Sure. Look for another spot for me.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Okay. But it wouldn't just be a fact if it was included just as a mini clarification. You know, according to blah blah blah, comma, which is not necessarily exclusive or inclusive, not fully inclusive, just so that we're not making it like, yes, that's the only fact under that source, but I think that's the implication is this is the number and it may not be a full number. The Point in Times report, I don't have it memorized, obviously. Yeah.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: But I'm sure there are people around the room who do. But the point in time report, I think, makes reference to the fact that that's an undercount. Am I misreading that? I'm seeing head nods over there.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Sorry to say that question again.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That we believe the 4,000 plus people is an undercount. And I think the point in time where I'm just trying to I'm playing Katie, who always says there's gotta be a reference for the things we put in findings. So, the point in time report, I think, does say that.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Yes, I think there has been some consensus,

[Esme Cole (Member)]: and I'm encouraging

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: others to chime in, but there's been some consensus that the poor data and entry number is a more accurate data source for understanding how many people are actually in comparison to the point.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, well that's just making the opposite argument.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, yeah. So maybe we should just state it this. Yeah,

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: all right.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: That we're getting knocked there. Yes. All right.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Okay. Go, Katie. Keep going. Second finding comes from age 91, I believe. The 2024 Vermont Housing Needs Assessment notes that 36,000 primary homes are needed in Vermont between 2025 and 2029, 3,295 of which are needed to address homelessness. It was cited in 'ninety one, but it's actually information from that assessment report.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So just a mini If it's equivalent grammatically, there's a readability problem with the numbers altogether. Can it say of which 3,295 are needed?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And we would have all those numbers in a row. Yeah. Which Okay.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I had to read it.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We don't to do it

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: now, right? If it's okay,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: A sentence whatever sentence structure. Okay. Okay. Page one. Yay.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: Actually, I'm gonna go back to line seven.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes, go ahead.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: But I think I see the reason why the title is Vermont Homeless Response. That feels like it needs for me to be Vermont Homelessness Response.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: It's a

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: response to homelessness. Yes, I think it's CFR's. Okay. Thank you.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You. Legislative intent section two. There is the intent of the General Assembly that unsheltered homelessness be eliminated and that homelessness in Vermont be rare, brief and non recurring. That utilization of an emergency housing benefit through the general assistance program end and be replaced by a continuum of care. That homelessness be reduced in Vermont and interim shelter opportunities, including specialized shelter options, be available to provide a stable pathway to permanent housing for all Vermonters experiencing homelessness. That Vermont increased the supply of emergency shelters as well as permanent supportive housing that meets the specific needs of the households. Have Vermont reduced reliance on the inefficient use of hotel and motel rooms to shelter?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We do have one question. It feels like the sentence needs something at the end, doesn't it? Shelter households

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: experiencing homelessness. Regarding that language, the use of hotels and motels, the way it's written, to shelter, if I understood correctly, there's some vision that includes possibility of hotels and motels as sort of specialized shelters and the like. So that's still a form of a shelter. So is it to cut down on the inefficient use of hotels and motels rooms for Emergency housing. Emergency housing, yeah. I would say unstructured sheltering, but

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: No, emergency housing. Yeah. So number four, when we look at this as I

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: just wanna make sure Katie's got that number on line 12, Katie.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I just added households to shelter households. Did you want something? We said

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: hotel motel rooms for emergency housing. Then it makes sense, you don't need households. Okay,

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: got it. Anne? Yeah, so number four, I mean, this is our intent. It's not our intent to increase the supply of emergency shelters and permanent, well permanent supportive housing, yes. But that's a temporary thing. We don't want to increase it beyond the knee, right? I'm just, Our purpose ultimately is

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Maybe a necessary emergency? Right, or

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: ensure supply of an adequate supply or a supply that meets the need as well as permanent support agents. I don't know, that's not well worded. I just want to

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: make Vermont increase the supply of adequate emergency shelters as

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: well as permanent supportive housing, because adequate means it meets the need. Right. We're

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: just having discussions, as long as it doesn't get crazy, you can chime in.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: Also, I'm looking at number three.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Wait. We have a lot of

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: board here.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: We have quite done. Okay.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: That's why he was waiting. Gotcha.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Adequate infers that there's agreement about what that is. Yeah. It's my only problem.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Necessary supply? Necessary. Or just needed needed supply? Just take You

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: that whole first couple words out, just emergency shelters and permanent supportive housing meet the needs of households.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh. Okay. Right, if it jointly applies to that meets needs, that takes care of it.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Shelters and permanent housing need to

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: meet Yeah, the When you read the whole sentence from the lead in. Let's start with shelters. Yeah.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Okay. It's

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a good bonus point stay. Shelters and permanent supportive.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And permanent supportive. Yep.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Shelters or emergency shelters are all shelters Generally?

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Emergency shelters is a term Some of this will take information in H91. It was defined in H91, and it's not defined here. Shelters and specialized shelters, that's defined.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: But then we have emergency It should

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: should say emergency housing, shelters, specialized shelters. Right, all three of those things.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep. Emergency housing, shelters, and permanent supportive housing.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yep, specialized shelters. Instead of just shelters? Shelters and specialized shelters. Okay.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Want me to read it back to you? Yeah. Okay. It is the intent of the General Assembly that emergency housing, shelters, specialized shelters, and permanent supportive housing that meets the specific needs of households no. This doesn't work.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: It still

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: needs the Vermonti priest at

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the start of I don't think so. No? No. I think we can can fix it at the end of the sentence. Okay, right. You'll fix it at the end. Yeah. Okay, number three, Zon.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: It strikes me that the words homelessness be reduced. It's not exactly the same as number one, but it might be duplicative. And could we just start somewhere else? Homelessness in Vermont feels duplicative.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh, right. You could just start with interim shelter opportunities because you've already said homeless be rare, brief, and nonrecurring.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Number one.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Well, then maybe what you're combining is three and four.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: Maybe. There you go.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Well

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: right. Except for getting rid of the homelessness be reduced improvised. Right. Yeah.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh, right. And yeah. Yeah. Or just three being interim this interim and and specialized, and then that's why four was just emergency shelters and

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: permanent. I think we can combine that. Yeah, yeah, right. Yes. I think we can, Katie, get rid of the lead in statement on number three, because I think Zon's right that number one takes care of it. And then sort of combine the intent of those four levels. They're kind of like saying, okay.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: Are kind They is the continuum of care. Yeah. So that's part of the intent. Maybe those words should even appear.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Could we say the four items that we've listed before, emergency housing, shelter, specialist shelter, and permanent supportive housing be available to provide a stable pass pathway to permanent housing for all Vermonters experiencing homelessness? Would that work? Works for me.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. That's one for

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Eric?

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: I was gonna throw something out just going through. Transition emergency responses towards housing focused solutions that reduces the incidence, duration, and reoccurrence of homelessness.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Maybe we should just refer to the continuum of services here.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: That's right.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Because then we get

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: That's where that all that Yeah.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Don't to list them. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good continuum. What you're getting at is the prevention and diversion part that's not included in these statements, which they should be. Right? Yeah. I'm I'm agreeing with Eric. I don't agree with the words he said, but I'm agreeing with your intent.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Okay? Well, Bill, it's working

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: on two it's working on two paths. I mean,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: two concepts.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: One is the services we're requiring and then the housing piece, which, you know,

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: if the housing doesn't exist, you

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: are not gonna be able

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: to offer the services. Right. So I I think that what we focus on is that there's a development of a continuum of services from prevention and diversion through permanent supportive housing. We don't even need to say a title. Just talk about the continuum of services. Continuum of services. People at risk of or experiencing homelessness. Yeah.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Okay. Do you wanna

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: combine The notion is the continuum, not the individual services now. Got it. Could we use three and say continuum of services be available to provide stable pathway to permanent housing for all Vermonters experiencing homelessness? Okay. And get rid of four. Okay. Right. Because even diversion and

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: so forth is part of a stable pathway to permanent Can just ask

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: for a moment? The Point in Time report in '25 does talk about that this is an undercount and it only reflects people who engage with other states' shelter service providers. So if you want to include that language about undercount that is referenced in twenty twenty five twenty four.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Representative, you're correct. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear earlier. The report did indicate that coordinated entry is often Well,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: that's what we say already, because that's the homeless management information system. That's what we say already. And what that point in time report says that even that is an undercount. Yes, yes. Right. Okay.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: So we can use in that We can reference

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the 25 in time survey.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Five point in time and

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: maybe Indicates that this may be an undercount.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: I think that

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: would be

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Okay. Because we have a cited source.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. So could somebody please send me that? So say something like this may be an undercount because we also have data from the point in time count. Okay.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So based on the point in time report, this may be an understatement. She'll see when she sees the language.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: And may, I feel like, isn't even a necessary word there, Is. Yeah. I mean, because we haven't captured anyone, it's it's impossible to capture everyone's face. But but we can get precise language. And if

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: we're citing the source, the source says it is an end account, right? As opposed to May?

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Well, the source says we have long term, we have long known the PIT number as an undercount as it reflects only the people who engage with our state's shelter service providers on point in time count day.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So we have no That's

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: different than what we're saying. That's saying the point in time is an undercount. Not supporting the concept that HMIS number is an undercount.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's what Chad was trying to say. Yes. Yeah. I got you now.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Sorry. Maybe I'm stupid.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I know I got you now. It took a little while.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So we're back to leave this

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: as is. We're back to leaving it as is.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Never mind.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: Alright. No.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: I'm just trying

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: to find

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: a way to include that in.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: It's called the market. Okay. Alright.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's fine. That's alright. This is what this process is always about. You move one step forward and two steps back, and then you move another step forward. So it's all good. Okay. I think that we're on to the section three.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: All right. It is the purpose of this act to create a continuum of supports and services for households who are experiencing homelessness or who are at risk of experiencing homelessness.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Now are we we've now because we consolidated under intent, guess the purpose and intent can be the same. But that's that becomes a lot like our merge three and four, doesn't it?

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: That

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: the intent is to create a continuum of sports media.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Is the intent included in the green books?

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: These would both be treated the same. No, not really. The purpose is not in the grade books either. It could be. You could move. Sometimes there is a purpose section that's codified. It doesn't happen super frequently, but it does happen.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Do we usually have a separate an intent and a purpose? They seem a lot the same. Not typically. What is an intent versus what

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: is a purpose?

[Esme Cole (Member)]: Yeah. No, I would say it's not

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: very difficult to have both

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: of them appearing on the same bill. So yeah. So we might wanna just say legislative intent for all of those things or I like purpose better than legislative at least. Right. Purpose for for the start purpose with number one, unsheltered homelessness. Okay.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Look at that. It just did away with the whole section.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. Not really. Section heading.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Sorry. We did away with the word.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Except that we may have eliminated number three, the combined three, four, because it's really in purpose number one, right?

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: We're going to add

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: a little bit more word to it, but it basically is a combination.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I guess the thing that I'm struggling with a little bit in the statements that we make above, That's sort of the end state. You know what I'm saying? And the statements that are in the purpose are what this bill does to implement the end result. Well, end yeah. Okay.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Well, end result would be we're not going use hotels much else at all, right? We Well, have our whole, if everybody's

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: I think based on our conversation, the revised findings are going to be a lot more condensed and talk more about this continuum of services, which means the purpose then can be talking about exactly what we're doing

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: to implement. Yeah, don't want to keep themselves updated. Yep, not, Okay. I withdraw.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Okay.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So one, create a continuum of supports and services for households who are experiencing homelessness or who are at risk of experiencing homelessness. Two, ensure tailored temporary emergency housing assistance is available to vulnerable Vermonters in a manner that encourages efficient and accountable use of taxpayer funds. Three, support self sufficiency and reduce returns to homelessness by encouraging active participation in developing personalized housing plans. Maybe just say through.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Through developing? No. Through personalized housing plans.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Active participation. Okay. Established clear eligibility criteria, accountability measures and require active household participation.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm going to say, let Katie get through the section and then we'll go back and dissect Yeah, it,

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I mean I just was going say we should maybe hold on that until we see whether the bill actually does that. But anyway.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Five, expanding alternative emergency housing models in partnership with municipalities, nonprofit community based providers, and private landlords. Six, integrate supportive services to assist households to achieve permanent housing stability. Seven, establish transparent accountability measures, reporting requirements and oversight mechanisms. Eight, create program efficiency and promote maximum flexibility in administering services and supports in the continuum. And nine, create a diversified system of emergency housing options such as shelters, specialized shelters, shared housing arrangements, post home models, master lease agreements, rapid housing replacements that provide cost effective, sustainable, and supportive outcomes to participants. Okay.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Now let's go back. Any comments about any words

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: to I do have a question. Does number two and number nine feel like they're the same, just from different vantage points? Is that possible?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: One's tailored, the other is diversified. Sorry.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: Yeah. That's what I mean. We're talking

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: I about

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: think it was more

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: about taxpayer funds.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Yes. There we go.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Number nine is about meeting the needs of participants. Right. I mean, we could be more succinct in saying, well, I don't know. I think I like it the way it is. Yeah. It's about taxpayer funds. Right.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: That it'd we should be used to

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: We want that there. So I would just say something, it's approved for this act to create a program that encourages efficient and accountable use of taxpayer funds.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: And addressing homelessness rather than being I think that the first couple of phrases kind of throw me off there, bit of a greater bond. I think if we want to say as taxpayer, let's just say the program should be cognizant of and should

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: be available to vulnerable Vermonters in a manner that encourages. Yeah.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: The program. Right. But start with just the program. Give specific words.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Are we looking at two or nine?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Two. Two. I like it like it is,

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: personally.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Ensure the whole program, that Widowship program for them.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: The

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Vermont homelessness response continue. It's invariables. I mean Well, it just It is available to in a manner that encourages. But leave out the tail. Is available? Isn't it? I mean,

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: feeding something that's gonna be available to vulnerable people?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: We're on number two, Brenda. Number two on page two. I like to like it at the bottom of page on line 17. I'm here. I just thought I didn't.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: I think that's speaking to an audience. I think that's speaking to an audience, and I would agree that the language, I think, sets forth the intent of for the taxpayer dollars.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: As is, are you saying so?

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Yeah.

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Would just recommend removing the word vulnerable because we're developing a continuum of care that is everything from prevention to retention and just leave it with available to the monitors.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes, that makes sense. That

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: makes sense. Yeah, I like that.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Well, somebody summarized because all I know right now is that what lenient is except for taking out vulnerable.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: That's right.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: That's pretty much it.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yes. That is. Well summarized.

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: There's way too many odds in there, so I'm not

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: You're not gonna say it all. Gotcha.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: I would say in both four and No. Four and eight, seven were referring to accountability.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Mhmm.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: And I think seven could probably use greater specificity that it seems like we're talking about accountabilities of the providers in the state, those who are providing the programs, whether that be a community partner or the state. And it's just I think that could be clear.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. I I think there's sort of between the lines. Four is about accountability participants and seven is about accountability of providers.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Yeah, I just think so.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And the system and the department.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: The department, the whole thing, the system, the accountability of the system itself. Right.

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Because that's truly a data driven statement. Establish transparent, accountable measures, reporting requirements, oversight mechanisms. That's what's data driven across the board, whether it's participant HMIS state.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So just leave that phrase and add an oversight mechanisms for providers and the state and the department. I think we can

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: leave it general and we take out a number four. We say establish clear eligibility criteria and require active household participation and get rid of accountability.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Because those are the that is

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the accountability. They can be covered We're addressing in number seven,

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: accountability in seven, We need to

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: be called out twice. You got that, Katie? Course. Establish clear eligibility criteria and record active household participation.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And do we have a change for seven yet? I think we're leaving as it is. Okay.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: I guess as I'm reading it, it seems like we bounce back and forth among the numbers about which part of this are we speaking to participants? That's okay?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. We're speaking to both. We just absorb it all.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Okay,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm going to move us on. Keep going, Kate, it's section four.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay, This is where we

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Go ahead. Stop it. So like I said, appears to be time. Just reference that brief promo models, and I don't recall that being a concept. Discussed Where

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: prevention and diversion come in. So there's gonna be a whole bunch of flexible funding down here at this end. It's just putting out there that these are not the only these named components of this bill are not the only things available for our community partners and DCF to utilize.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: So is host home referring to the place where someone may be permanently and keeping them in that setting.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes. Could be part

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: of diversion. But it's not I'm hosting a homeless person. No. Or it could be? Okay.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: Could be. Could be. Yeah.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: Can I explain what the HOT TOME model is?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. Go ahead, Jubilee.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Yeah. Please.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: It's used a lot for unaccompanied homeless youth. In Vermont, we don't have a unaccompanied homeless youth shelter. We don't really have the, number in any one area to make that, efficient use. So instead we have host hubs that are commissioner designated shelters for youth, where we have volunteers who are licensed and go through trainings. And so when a minor who is separate from their family is in need of emergency shelter, they go and stay with the host home, but it's still kind of emergency shelter.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Thank you.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And it could be for people, as Jubilee just outlined, but it it could be for an adult. It could be for Yeah. You know, somebody. This is what we had talked about last year somewhat in in terms of some of those sort of informal arrangements, low cost informal arrangements, like somebody needs a little bit of money in order to be able to rent a room in somebody's house. That could be a host home. Could be yeah. I'll I'll I'll sign up, and I'll host somebody, but I need a little extra money for utilities or you know?

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: That'd be support also sort of for a a kin arrangement. Myself and my three kids need a bridge for the next four months. My sister will take me in, but I could use a little financial support to help make that arrangement happen.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, those things that happen now. Thank you. Thank you for bringing that up in my head. I want to say this out loud, so for people in the room and the people who are listening, we heard testimony from people like, well, we already have this, or we already know this. Part of what this bill is intended to do is to codify some of our current practices as well as to identify a continuum of services. Okay? So it's not like saying this is all brand new, because it's not. This is codifying in statute, because right now, we don't have anything in statute, really, other than just the mention of emergency housing in the GA statute. So I think that, I just wanna say that out loud, because I know that we had some witnesses that say, well, we already do this, or we already have requirements for this. I'm like, yes, I understand that. But we don't have it in statute. And statute is harder to change. And so this is putting out- it's up to the legislature to establish policy. This is putting out the policy for the state

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: of Vermont. We also, to that point, don't have it in a statewide program. Correct. And that's what this is doing. Setting up

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: a framework.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Great that people are already doing this, but this sets up the framework to have standard kind of consistent practices I across the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: like the consistent, having it all over the place.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: On the host homes, which I like the idea of, I'm wondering what Jubilee described for you was some sort of training. Would this be a little less formal for adults?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: On the host home?

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: On the host home. I'm just wondering what you're envisioning.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: What I envision is something that is going to work for people. Flexible. Okay. Doesn't have to be

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: the same formal training or the Okay.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: But they would have to be qualified, a foster home. I mean, they would just- If it's for you, go anywhere. Oh, no, no. Right. Is not for- Oh, okay. Youth For that are in custody. This is not No. No. But even adults some adults might wanna shelter and either wanna put in a bad situation 1% of the time.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Are the homes checked? So

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: somebody doesn't say, I'll take somebody and it's not just for the money and not be a good home. Are they gonna be qualified or check? That's up to the community providers. Okay. I just wanna put somebody in a safe secure. Of course. Yeah, nobody would want to do that.

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Well, I think, I mean, Doug kind of shared kind of the gauntlet of what a host world looks like. Everything from, hey, you've got assistance with people staying there all the way to possible placement from day when money provided for that, DCF, to Doug, a ton of

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: hair There is, on the yeah. Yep, yep. Wide range. It's a wide range. And I think just to remind people also, that we're trying to write this as an AHS, not just a DCF focus, okay? Right. Because we heard loud and clear that this, you know, AHS wants us to be in AHS. And we do too. I mean, we've found that. So, okay. Are we set for right now? At least we move on to definitions. Okay.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I realized that I have homeless instead of remote homelessness, which fonts throughout. So I will catch that, and I will change it. That's on line sixteen and eighteen. Then we have our so we're creating a new chapter in title 33. And then we have a couple pages of definitions, alternative housing options. I should just pause and say it's a worthwhile exercise to go through all the definitions. When we get after we finish our work on the bill, it would also be useful to go back and see if we use all of the definitions. Because if there's a term we define and then we don't use it, we might wanna just pull it out. Okay. Alternative housing options means housing options such as specialized shelters, transitional housing, recovery residences, shared housing arrangements, host home models, master leased agreements, and rapid rehousing placements. Should that be leased or master leased without the d?

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: It is a units or units.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh, master lease units.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Right? Sorry, what's that with a d? Without. Without. Okay. In both places, I guess. On line 14 on page nine. I mean, number nine.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: On number nine? So in some places, when we're giving examples of a list of things that there might be others, we use concluding. Is this different or intentional? Such as? Does it matter? It's the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: same language it's used for does it mean it means the same thing, doesn't it, Katie?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I think it means the same thing.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Including, but not limited to. And such as is also illustrative. It's a list. So I think we're probably in the same place regardless of which one

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: we use.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. But, I mean, they're not limited to was struck a long time ago. It's just including means and not limited to. So if it doesn't matter to the fledged council people, I have no

[Esme Cole (Member)]: question. Do you have a preference between I have no preference. I

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: was only thinking of consistency.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Is there another place where we included?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh, not in this. I didn't see it in this bill. I just saw this now.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, let's keep my eye on it as we go through. Applicant means a household that applies for assistance. At risk of homelessness means precariously housed without sufficient income, resources, or support to prevent homelessness.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Is that a HUD or State of Vermont definition? Or is it peer elsewhere?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It's loosely around HUD definition, but I'm gonna refer to Lily for that. It was last year.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Yeah, I think that was out

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: of case with the science.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: It's mostly based on the HUD definition without going into the specifics of the HUD.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Case management services means individualized supports connecting households to public benefits, healthcare, employment, and permanent housing or other services. Coordinated entry means a standardized process to assess needs, prioritize resources, and refer to households to appropriate housing interventions. Department is DCF.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Sorry. Is that prioritize the resources the person needs or is that prioritize resources among different people trying to enter?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: People are prioritized. It's I think in how it's used here has been

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: housing providers. Assessing what the needs are and therefore how to prioritize resources based on the different levels of need. I'm going to

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: say essentially more needy persons get prioritized.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Okay, what Right, that was my understanding from the explanation of coordinated entry. And so that's consistent. Yeah, thank you.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: You want to say assess household needs, standardized process to assess household needs?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I it's fine.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Disability means a physical, sensory, cognitive, developmental or mental health condition or substance use disorder that substantially limits one or more major life activities or that requires ongoing support, accommodation or treatment to maintain an individual's health, safety or independence. The term includes chronic or episodic conditions that significantly impact daily functioning, regardless of whether the individual is receiving or is eligible to receive federal disability benefits.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think it is a good definition. I don't know if we have the question I had in my mind as I was thinking about this is whether or not this definition is consistent with how the term disability is used in other places. I mean, is a broad definition of disability because it's meant to include It's not like by department, where disability is defined at Dale differently because it's only for those people eligible in that department.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: May have missed it on my first read through, but I didn't spot where we actually use it statute.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Well, I think it's because we haven't gotten that far Okay. Okay. Alright.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Before we leave this page Yeah. Number four, case management services. And we've had this discussion about what does that mean, and we talk about it often in the way of coordination of services. We wanna use this as an opportunity to ensure, because right now this means individualized supports connecting households to public benefits, healthcare, employment, and permanent housing or other services. Could be interpreted simply as an entree to applying for the same, just getting a benefit. But I'm not sure if it includes the breadth of the coordination of service you could. I don't know if we just finished the sentence by saying in coordination of the same. It's a point that you, Madame Chair, make that I like, what we really mean by it.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I am thinking about this in terms of the intent is also for the sort of post placement follow along. The case management is required If one of our data points, which it will be, one of our data points is to reduce the number or percentage of people reentering homelessness, ongoing case management is a really key function in that.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: We don't want to just connect them with these things. We want to make sure that they stay connected.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I could say individualized, comma, coordinated. So case management services means individualized, coordinated supports connecting households to public benefits, etcetera.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Well, I think a separate thing, Katie. So I think it comes individualized supports connecting. So all the connecting. And then it's connecting. I think the coordination part is maybe a new sentence, in there, coordination of these benefits or coordination of these services or supports, however it's referred to, and ongoing follow along when appropriate or something like that.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: It includes as It also includes. It also includes. Right.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thanks, Doug. Yeah. That's good.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: What about sorry, what about just including putting sticking the word coordinated in front of public benefits online?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: And it makes it clearer to be two separate.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Two separate things, I think, because it it actually is a whole sort of, like, service. Mhmm. That that coordination piece from the connecting and particularly the follow along.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: Would the word retention be helpful there?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Retaining housing, in terms of that?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Follow-up for retention of? Yeah, go ahead, Jubilee. The

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: term we use in our HUD Youth Homelessness Demonstration Projects is aftercare. And that's just kind of the, yeah, it accompanies the housing retention, the follow-up, any additional support navigating crises that may come up even after they're stably housed. So I don't know if we're

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And that's under the case management Jubilee? Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's good.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: It's known as aftercare.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Where Okay. Would that go? So to summarize, number four would have two sentences now instead of one. It would say case management services means all of those things. And then it would say it also includes coordination of services and ongoing aftercare as necessary.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Ongoing may be duplicative of aftercare.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Coordination and aftercare. Aftercare is necessary. Any other questions or thoughts on that page?

[Esme Cole (Member)]: It sounds like it's a universal term, yeah, just making sure that everyone is on the

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: same page about what aftercare is.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, it seems like a medical term to me.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: There are many other associations. It

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: seems like other services would encompass that, wouldn't it? Other services would mean if they needed help after. Go ahead, Chad.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: I'm just curious if it would make sense or if the committee would be open to maybe referring to existing definitions and laws in state or federal policy.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes. I mean, we're trying to be consistent in other places.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Do we have an option elsewhere for the reference case management that we could use?

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: My brother and my father are going to love this. I'm not a lawyer, so I wouldn't know. But I'm just curious in

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: housing policy. Feel that it's not the same.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: I think that's what they use in family supportive housing. They that in family supportive housing. Anne, go ahead.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: I realized before I said Brenda, I'm homeless, Vermont. What if you just said ongoing supports? Because that's how we refer to it, it's because it, you could say everything, coordination, you could say those things, ongoing support is really what's happening. Then- Coordination

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: and ongoing support, yeah. Then

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: just also, I have to practice this more because I like the definition of disability, but I was wondering if it might be to be consistent with ADA or to the model definition. Yeah.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's why I was asking about other definitions of disability. It contains elements of the ADA disability definition, but it's not exactly that. And I think that we should cross reference just to see where the differences are. Because the intent would be if we're going to ask for a thing like special accommodation, then it is based upon the ADA, obviously.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: But I think you're trying to extend it, the episodic condition-

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: That's what I said, it's not Are gonna be not necessarily- That's like somebody having surgery and

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: doesn't- Is leaving the hospital after surgery would not be a federal disability because it's short term and yet we're trying to cover that person or in the pendency of that

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: as- Temporary disability is covered under the ADA definition. I think I'm just gonna, I have to look at it down here.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Can I just add to, I like the ongoing support as language, but maybe then putting the finer point on it, that it's ongoing supports to ensure successful rehousing?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yes. Because that's really what-

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Actually supportive housing and Lily, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think family supportive housing uses ongoing housing and tenancy sustaining services to kind of define that post placement and housing service coordination.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: But remember, this is going to be a bill that is cross departments. So while the ultimate goal and the use for these resources is around that tenancy stuff that you just talked about, then I I don't want Dale, for instance, or DOC or DMH to be thinking that, well, that's the only kind of case management that would be that it's only related

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: to houses.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Do know what I'm saying? And and what we would see is somebody transition from this caseload to, like, an ongoing choices for care or ongoing DD caseload or ongoing DMH caseload. They wouldn't necessarily always stay in this caseload. So hopefully, they would move. But if we're gonna have other elements of AHS involved in providing this service, I think we need to be a little bit broader than just the tenancy definition.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: Yeah, that makes sense.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: You know what mean? So, I have a note, Katie, that we should check ADA definition just to see that we're not leaving anything out. I know it's going to, yeah, And I didn't know honestly that there was an ADA definition for temporary disability or whatever. Okay.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: I would, I might refer to

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: and try to get from

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: The Sarah FDA definition, if you'll have- From

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Sarah Vanderbilt, the full capacity of that definition, because she has it in the way that's available.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. Yeah. Okay, we're going to move on, Katie, to page five.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Immersion means an intervention strategy designed to prevent immediate homelessness by helping a household identify an immediate alternative housing option. We have immediate twice, which bothers my ears, but

[Esme Cole (Member)]: if nobody else has a concern, then that's fine.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: I

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: had a question about diversion. And this definition and then kind of when it's used throughout. And I'm just wondering, you envisioning this as kind of within that buckle bucket of the the funds that folks use for like security deposits and and methods of also getting folks out of homelessness? Or is that another kind of bucket or area that I missed?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: In my head, but that doesn't mean that that's the right place for it. I envision that at the, I'm going refer to the left side, to the left side of the continuum in the prevention and diversion. So flexible funds essentially.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: Okay. I would just suggest adding then in the diversion, maybe designed to prevent immediate homelessness or quickly resolve a homelessness by helping a household identify an immediate alternative housing options. Further down it, yeah, just where it's used, it seemed like it might actually leave people out. So I just wanted to make sure it's clear that it's not it's also for quickly diverting folks who out of homelessness, who just kind of, you know, need that short term resources to move into stability?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Well, I'm just looking at the HUD definition. Yeah. Okay. And it says diversion is a strategy aimed at preventing homelessness. It doesn't say helping people out of homelessness. By helping individuals and families find immediate alternative housing options instead of entering emergency shelters.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: Yeah. I think what

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: you Jubilee, to me, it sounds like what you're talking about is is a key piece, but it's not diversion from.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Well, says, it goes on to say, it focuses on addressing the needs of those who have recently lost their housing.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: I think I was getting a bit confused as to where diversion picks up and ends versus prevention picks up and ends. And we define number 17, we define prevention. Because as I looked at diversion, it said identify an immediate alternative housing option or maintain existing housing option?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It's a term that HUD uses.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Okay. So that

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. That's why

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: it into prevention. Okay.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: I yeah. We operate a diversion a HUD diversion project, and it's diversion, you know, we, there's sometimes like a youth comes in and they need help with back rent, so they don't get evicted. And that's kind of diverting them from homelessness, but there may be a youth in an emergency shelter and they're working, they found an apartment, they can sustain it on their own, but they need like the security deposit and a fuel deposit and maybe first month's rent to get in. And so I just want to ensure kind of all of those are options. If we're kind of getting rid of that former hot bucket, I just want to ensure that all of the ways those flexible funds are used are represented in the language.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Yeah. I think the answer is yes. And think that to me, it's kind of a matter of record keeping. Prevention and diversion, I know you can't use them exactly interchangeably, but I think getting to what Doug was saying, they're very-

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: And diagrammatic.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Is a piece where they're together.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: But if they need to be defined separately, it doesn't- Yeah.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I just sent Katie the excerpt from the definition that HUD uses, and so maybe we'll beef this up a little bit to match that briefs. So you're gonna do it more to match that. Right? It's very close to the HUD's definition, but maybe just to be a

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: little closer. The word immediate is look at Rey's. So

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the answer to your overall question, Jubilee, is yes. It's meant to include those activities.

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: Just quickly, Madam Chair, conversion also refers to appropriate placement, I. E. His example, if somebody is referred over to the Rutland emergency shelter and during the intake assessment process, it's recognized that they are fleeing domestic violence. We appropriately would divert and refer over to New Story who manages that level of, that's just an example. So diversion is also about the appropriate approach.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: And it's a bunch of different things. Yes.

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: That's why I agree with the current difference,

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: because It's it the prevent, to prevent immediate homelessness. Well, that's

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: like unintentionally. Don't worry. Don't worry.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: We're gonna work on it.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Sent Katie on the definition and it includes people who have been recently homeless.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: Thank you. Keep moving.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Eligible household means a household that is physically present and intends to reside in Vermont, as evidenced by active participation in a housing, employment or other agency of human services recognized plan.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So I will share with you that the agency is still looking to further identify eligible households. So I know that there's going to be feedback on this.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. So my thought seeing it, and maybe it's not in the definition, maybe it's in it being actuated later in the bill, but it would seem it would need active participation to the extent of the household's ability.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I looked for that language in 'ninety one because I know we had discussion about it and thought we included it, but I couldn't find it anywhere.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Because, yes. Because it sort of implies a level of participation, which may be a level that an individual is doing their best within their capabilities, but could be said to not be active participation by some reading

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: of that as a more definitive standard. Yes, we had some, I thought, lovely crafted language in '91, but I could not find it for the life of me. I didn't The

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: fact of engaging.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It wasn't that. It was referencing the household's disability. Like, their disability may prevent them from participating to a certain extent.

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: I think it was actually last biennium. I I started looking for it too because I know we did, and we developed some good language.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So it wasn't in '91 you think it was in the previous version?

[Jubilee McGill (Member)]: It might have been in some budget language, or maybe it got stripped from '91, but I know I know we did come up with good language. I was searching through my emails trying to find it.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. Well, if somebody comes up with it, let me know. For right now, to the household stability is what we're going to insert, Katie. Okay.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. Keep going. Emergency cold weather shelter means a publicly funded shelter means publicly funded shelter beds made available to households during periods when the National Weather Service is forecasting temperatures at or below 10 degrees Fahrenheit, including wind chill.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I just put I just put in that number.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: No. It's up from minus 10, Anne. It's 10. Must be minus It was minus one. No. No. No. I'm sorry. That's above zero. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I Thank you.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I just saw the 10 degrees, and I just thought it was

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I knew somebody was think it was minus.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yes. Well, that was me. I there we were reading it.

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: Well, it does say below 10, so it's easy. I I did

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: the same

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: thing. Yeah.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Got me. Below 10 is what may thank you.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: 10 below. Right.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Below 10.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Can say below or at. I don't know if you wanna I don't know if there's some way to better word it, but

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: It says at or below.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. Go ahead, Lily.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Just sharing an observation that as we've, don't know, I can't remember if I Lily Sochran, the director of the ops, can't remember. Thank you. Just sharing that this year when we've operated, we have mandatory at negative 10 Fahrenheit and optional at zero, and many spaces are not able to operate at zero. And so I think that

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think it's in when we get to the service definition, it talks about flexibility and least amount of requirements as possible, I think the way it's worded now, I understand, is that they're required to open at minus 10 and it's optional at zero. And I'm not saying that necessarily they will be required to open at 10 degrees, but we are saying that it should be avail like, we're not gonna put an Right. We're not gonna put an impediment to

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: To definition, it doesn't even mean that we're able to do all of it, but this is how we're defining it. I I appreciate the comment because we heard the

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: same thing in testimony from the Central Vermont folks. You know, they said sometimes they were able to get the volunteers and sometimes they weren't able to get them. So

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Emergency housing means the provision of temporary accommodations or related services necessary to protect the health, safety and welfare of eligible households. Homeless means lacking a fixed, regular and adequate nighttime residence, facing imminent loss of primary nighttime residents, fleeing or attempting to flee domestic violence, or otherwise defined as homeless under federal law.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Households. Yeah. So just before we move on that. Right. That's what we've using. It's what we've been using. I think that I mean, this came out in '91, which we I believe was shortened from HUD, but I'm I'm looking to Lily I'm looking to the people who work with HUD every day to see if if that is representative. That's what we did at

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: the time. We did. It's the HUD.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Does it matter

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: that the households fleeing domestic violence are now treated and handled outside this program? No. Okay. Okay. Household means an individual or group of individuals with or without children, including individuals who reside together as one economic unit, who are married, parties to a civil union or unmarried, without a fixed nighttime residence or immediate risk of losing housing. That's

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: what we crafted in 'ninety one.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Minor child means an individual 18 years of age. Office means Oyo. Permanent supportive housing means long term housings with wraparound services for individuals with a disability that impact activities of daily living. Prevention.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Activities of failed living means a very specific thing in disability definition. And then there's this thing called instrumental activities of daily living, which are different.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. And also, defined disability as it could be episodic, somebody coming out of a hospital where it may not need permanent supportive housing.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It could be short term, couldn't it? Right.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Not necessarily long term.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So I think that's a good point. So I think we should say short or long term housing. Well, no,

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: we don't want short term housing. Right, this is permanent supportive housing. It's the definition of that. There could be short term supportive housing. There's something different. Right.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I don't know. We can

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: say housing with permanent or episodic

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: wraparound services. And just call it supportive housing.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It's short term.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: No. I think it should stay the way it is for permanent. And and if we need to do a variation of that when we go through the statute for for the short term. Okay.

[Eric Maguire (Member)]: And

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I'm just wondering if we should say end it after disability.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yes. That

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: that clause, I couldn't figure out which one it belongs to. So

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Yeah, we don't need that. Right.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: Prevention

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: means services intended to prevent a household from becoming homeless, such as housing relocation or stabilization services or short term rental assistance and keeping people reurge.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So you'll see when you see the new definition for diversion, it can include services if somebody has recently become homeless. That would differentiate us

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: from prevention.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: That's true.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Program means Vermont Homeless Nets Response Continuum. Rapid rehousing means short to medium term rental assistance and supportive services aimed at quickly exiting quickly exiting homelessness quickly exiting a household from homelessness.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: I know.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. You're

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I think it's fine. Yeah. It's fine. It's fine? Yeah. Exiting homelessness. You don't say you don't say you don't have the noun. Yeah. Shelter. Existing a household to quickly exit

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: homelessness. Oh, yeah. Too quick.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Where are you? Sorry. You're aimed And at supportive services aimed at assisting a household at quickly exiting. Too quickly exit at blah, I can't talk. Too quickly exit homelessness.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Shelter means a facility that meets the department's shelter standards limited housing. Specialized shelter means a facility that meets the department's shelter standards for for time limited jobs.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, sorry. You asked to highlight others such as, here's another such as.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Means a facility that meets the department's shelter standards for time limited or transitional housing with additional services such as healthcare, mental health services or services related to substance use disorder.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I think my only question on these two, your answer is going to be that part of the finish yet of the bill.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Don't know what your There's question

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: nothing in the bill that talks anything about time limited housing.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Well, then maybe we need to expand upon the specialized shelter sections.

[Brenda Steady (Member)]: There is a section about specialized shelter.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Yes, but there's nothing about any time limits on shelter anywhere in the bill that I found. Just like I said, there

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: was nothing like this bill, and it's not permanent is my point. Okay. That's I mean, that's what it's But it

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: says the department's shelter standards for time limited. What temporary be more general? Temporary

[Zon Eastes (Member)]: or nonpermanent.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: And that sounds to me like there's standards for

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: a sixty day limit. Yeah. It's not that's not what it's meant to say. Well, I could just say, peace of shelter standards, period. Right. There we go.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Do you want the same thing on line 16?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So the difference about including transitional is that I know you were talking about using, for instance, substance use disorder shelter as a transition to potentially recovery housing. So

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: But wouldn't that also it's the department's shelter standard. I guess it's not necessary. Shelter or transitional housing standard.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: There isn't any transitional. So say specialized shelter means the facility means the department's shelter standard with additional services such as healthcare, mental health, blah, blah, blah. So just a lead time limited or transitional housing. We anticipate that 2017.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: That a specialized shelter that's providing the health care, mental health services, etcetera, will have additional standards, applicable standards?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It's possible.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: We need

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: to don't

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: know. Reference How do we deal with that now?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Lily? That's fine. Think that would still be

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: We talked about in '20, shelters generically need to meet shelter standards. Specialized shelters need to meet those standards. And they may have additional services. Will the provision of those additional services come with any additional standards?

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: So currently, for the substance use recovery oriented shelters that we're supporting, those projects have two grant meetings. So they have one with us to go if they're at the shelter standards, then they have one with the health department to fall under the sort of recovery guidance that they need to have. So that's an example of what we're doing now, I think similarly, and again, I'm not sure how this will play out, and I think there are probably a lot of ways to get from funding to funding. Mean, think typically, too, when other services are coming on-site, we usually fund it, the designated agencies have their contracts with the state, or health care providers, home health agencies, for instance, are there. So I think we're leveraging those existing set of standards.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Doug, the way I read it, it's saying the shelter standards, that it would incorporate whatever additional standards the department had for when those specialized services were being offered. Right?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Don't know, rather than limiting it

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: to, no? Okay. I mean,

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: it would

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: adhere to the shelter standards above, but

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: I hear you're- And

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: provide those services. So maybe it says shelter standards with additional services such as and standards applicable to the delivery of those services? Or I mean, I don't wanna create obstacles, it just seems like if we're gonna mention standards. The department And Julie has given one example of how there are, in fact, additional standards.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: So the department shelter standards and standards for, well Any additional applicable

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Standards for the delivery of

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Such services.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Somewhere there. I don't know.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay. I've I've got the point. You've got the concept.

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: Yeah. Okay.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Like, I'm pretty sure we're not gonna pay extra for a shelter that's gonna meet that's gonna have people with specific health care needs, and most likely, it's gonna require some nursing level care. But but I don't

[Esme Cole (Member)]: have to

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: be met.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. Well, they're they don't exist. These departments haven't operated shelters before. Like, Dale hasn't operated it. You know, they haven't contracted for a shelter before. VDH has, but I'm just gonna ask our our VDH team when you have your meeting with the department to ask if they're funding under recovery residences, shelter services. Yeah. I'm just trying to figure out if it's coming under their recovery residence money. And if they, like we've been promoting, I'm gonna use the wrong initials, but I think it's VTAR, national licensing for recovery residences. Yeah.

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Interesting.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: It's not that I have a

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: problem with it, but they never they never have mentioned.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Okay, go ahead.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Supportive services means individualized supports that assist a household in obtaining and maintaining housing, including intake assessments and services for diversion and homelessness, household needs assessments, case management, individualized household plans to address identified needs, housing navigation services, assistance obtaining and retaining housing, including financial assistance, landlord tenant outreach, education and conflict resolution. Navigation to other services and supports as identified in the household's housing plan, including economic benefits, peer supported services, job training and employment services, services related to disability and independent living advocacy, and referral to health care assistance such as treatment for mental health conditions and substance use disorder as provided by the designated and specialized services agencies and preferred providers, respectively, or other providers? I think I got

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I thought I deleted that last phrase. Oh, okay. And we say including. Now we're using including. Anne's got me hypersensitive to including versus such as. I think it's because we say such as later on in the definition.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: When I'm thinking about it, not just in the definitions, I think I use such as in some of the more substantive sections. Okay. So where am I deleting?

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Referral line 13. As provided by the DSSSIs and blah blah blah.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh, right. We don't know.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I I yeah. I'm not really Okay.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: You don't have to narrow it. And substance use disorder? Yep. Okay. And the last subdivision was progress monitoring and interventions. So does this solve all of our angst over case management services? If we just go back to page four, eight, case management services means individualized supportive services, because we've now talked about all the things that support services, which is connecting them to public benefits, health care, employment, and takes care of all of the, quote, aftercare

[Doug Bishop (Member)]: Seem like a System. Way to address it?

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Obtaining and retaining housing. It's got it's got economic development spirit. It's got

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Is it weird to refer to a definition as part of another definition? Nope.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: It assists the household in obtaining and maintaining housing. It's different. They're different. Well, these are the services. Case management is that you're working to deliver them and this is what the services mean. So case management means Is the delivery of individual Individualized supports Individualized supported services.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, that's fine.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: That makes sense.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So I'll

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: get rid of the rest of that sentence and

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: the second sentence that you added. Yep. Okay.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: We think, I'm wondering,

[Chad Simmons (HMIS/Data Witness)]: if

[Esme Cole (Member)]: something that was a barrier to housing for a specific family, every family being very different, every person being very different, like, do you think it would be this specificity, however not including whatever that random thing may be, be a deterrent for addressing that other thing? For example, accompanying better hearing trial or if one of the barriers to housing in a nursing home is because they have a tobacco addiction or nicotine addiction. All these random things that might not be included here. Just want to make sure it's not deterring case management from being open to

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: says, right, we may need an or other Well, it

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: says individualized household plans to address identified needs

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: and that assists in obtaining and maintaining housing. The term

[Esme Cole (Member)]: including Including does not mean limited to.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: No, no, it's explicitly legally needs. These are just examples.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: I just want to make sure the interpretation wouldn't be a deterrent from expanding on whatever was listed here. So thank you, that's helpful.

[Katie McLinn (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Last definition, unsheltered homelessness means sleeping in a location not designed for or ordinarily used as a regular sleeping accommodation, such as a car or tent.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: I added those last June.

[Anne B. Donahue (Ranking Member)]: Oh, you want to add examples? Because then you could say, never a house that would be condemned if anyone inspected it.

[Lily Sochran (Director, Office of Economic Opportunity, DCF)]: Poor Anne's sister's eyes. Yeah, oh my god.

[Esme Cole (Member)]: That's what she's meaning.

[Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah, okay. Now is a good time to take a brief break. Oh, yes. Starting. Okay. So let's