Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: We have a quorum, and our chair and vice chair will join us, I'm sure, as we go along, tied up in other committees. But we are gonna resume testimony on H five ninety four and hearing from two witnesses this morning. First welcoming the mayor of Rutland City. As we do usually when we have someone new in the committee for the year, we'll do a round of introductions and then we'll very much welcome and appreciate your comments. So I'm representative Anne Donahue. I'm ranking member, and I represent Northfield and Berlin.

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: Good morning. I'm Dan Noyes. I represent Wolcott, High Park, Johnson, and Belvidere.

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: Good morning, Eric. Why I represent let's see. Why are laughing? Because

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: he knows you. Good morning. Doug Bishop, representative from Colchester. Good morning. My name is Zon Eastes.

[Rep. Zon Eastes (Member)]: I live in Guilford, and I also represent Vernon.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Hello there, Esme Cole of Hartford.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (Member)]: Hi, I'm Jubilee McGill, I represent Bridgeport, Middlebury, New Haven and Wave Ridge.

[Speaker 0]: And our folks around

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: the room? Over here, Laurie and Morris, committee assistant. Sam Hartnett, I'm of Action Circles. I am

[Speaker 0]: Wonderful. And if you could just introduce yourself. We're just going around with introductions.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Hi. My name is Daniel, partner of Wood Sattenden Rutland Consulting. Sorry.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Your timing was perfect to catch you. So again, welcome, Mayor

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: Dungis. Dungis. It's hard to say. It has been since I was in grade school, so.

[Speaker 0]: So welcome and please, please share your thoughts on this bill.

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: Fantastic. So good morning. Just again, the record, Mayor Mike Dungis from Rutland City. As we were laughing at earlier, Representative Maguire and myself have been talking for a long period of time about the challenges that the existing or the previously existing GA program and the structure that program had and how those challenges affect our city. So I'd like to start there for a minute to talk about, to signify the importance of why five ninety four is so significant for the city of Rutland, if that's okay. So the current state, when you look at what the general assistance program meant to Rutland historically prior to, so in pre, what we would call pre pandemic levels, the city of Rutland at this, you know, at the most trying of times would house somewhere to the tune of 50 households in a hotel or motel in the worst part of the winter, right, during the adverse weather part of the program. Post pandemic levels have come up to and hung around four fifty households. That is a huge multiplier. And while that was necessary across the board, and those numbers have come down while it was necessary across the board, What that did in the community was, I think, not only unprecedented but unpredictable. And what I mean by that is when we look at the services and the state did a really good job of trying to provide financial resources to the organizations that support us locally. But unlike Chittenden County, while Rutland did have most, you know, the highest numbers in the hotel utilization, Rutland County, we didn't have the level of resources necessary to serve that community in a couple of different ways, right? One of the first ways was our service providers, while funded for more staff, couldn't find more staff. Because part of it, we have a housing crisis going on, which is also tied to this. But part of it is those staff resources throughout the country were occupied with the same challenges. So growing that staff to actually meet those needs was challenging to see that influx. We saw a significant increase on our city resources, right? Our building and zoning team has spent much of our times ensuring that they are acting as oversight for the hotel motel program as it has sat. So meaning we're going in, we're making sure that those buildings are in good shape. And that has taken a lot of time. Plus our PD, two weeks in Rutland, have something where a program where we take a look at the three PTs in our community. It's called Rutstat. And the idea is that we look at the active data of what's happening in the community. And what we have seen every single two weeks since the acceleration of the GA program, let's call it, has been that almost every one of the hotels is on that three peat report every single two weeks. So it has put a significant burden on the community. So I wanted to start with that and level set because when you look at the structures, the programs, the policy, and the process that is in age five ninety four, I think it is a significant relief to the communities that the programs are set to serve. So I understand that there's a huge aspect of this bill that's really to help bring dignity to those who are in the hotel motor patrol program or or unhoused at the moment, and that is a fantastic mission for the state. But the other thing that this bill does and what I'd like to really spend time on today is Rutland is an impacted community, but talking spend a few minutes to talk about the community and how putting it in a shelter based structure with a programmatic response to how we admit people, the processes they have to go through, the structures that they have to adhere to so that we can help them move from a homeless situation to a house situation over time. I think those aspects of the bill are really, really important because then that gives our local community resources the ability to then put the right efforts in the right places to help in those areas versus not having the oversight that we need and not having the tools resources and time. So I'll pause there because usually when I get talking like this, people have questions. So I'll pause there and see if there's any questions so far.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. Yes, Representative Bishop. Can you speak

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: more about, I'm not sure I caught with the three piece data that is reviewed biweekly, and it seems to relate to public safety data. If you could also expand on the impact on your fire rescue and police with the the growth you've seen post pandemic?

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: Absolutely, that's a fantastic question. So the way that we gather that data is anytime there is more than three calls at a location in a fourteen day period, right? It's really thirteen days or thirteen and a half days because when we run the report. It shows up on the three peat list. And then in that meeting, we review what those calls are. In most cases at the hotels, there's far beyond three calls. We're looking at six, seven sometimes. Sometimes we're looking at ten, fourteen. Every once in a while, a hotel will drop off the list. And we can usually track that. We've actually been getting better at tracking that down to the individuals causing the problems, which is fantastic. It's good that we can get to that level of granular data at this point. But any more than three calls to a location and it shows up on the list, and then we have a report of what type of calls those are. So sometimes those are domestic violence calls. Sometimes those are drug sales calls. Sometimes those are just public disturbance calls. So it'll be plethora of different things. A lot of the times, it's petty theft calls, right? Someone has stolen from someone else's hotel room. And to speak specifically to each one of those types, the challenge with the system as it sits today, and I wanna make sure I hit the points of the question. The challenge with the system as it sits today is there is no accountability and oversight for these hotel owners, right? And they're essentially running a hotel and people are essentially staying in their hotel, right? There's no programmatic oversight. The state does a great job of coming in during the day and connecting with people when necessary, but there's no programmatic oversight for people who are struggling to live right now. So that's the first part. The second piece of, can you ask the second half of the question? I just wanna make sure I don't miss it. I apologize.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Just thank you for the explanation of repeat data. Also, curious more broadly the impact on all branches of public safety, fire, rescue, and police in the post pandemic era with the growth of the, like, how are you seeing around the city?

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: So the the prime the primary set of responses usually comes from our PD our police department. That's where we're seeing most of the calls. You know, unlike Chittenden County and Burlington, Burlington, leverage their fire department a lot more for these services. We don't have that structure. So our police department is more responsive in these situations to the hotels. So has equated to more than 40% of our there have been multiple months where more than 40% of our calls are coming from the hotels and motels. That has dwindled down as the households have reduced in those hotels, but that those numbers do still sustain kinda in in corollary with the with the numbers of households. Our fire department does respond on occasion, but typically they're not the first to be called. Our building and zoning team, however, which is weird to say, but our building inspectors have kind of taken on a role of oversight and accountability for the hotels. And that's where we're seeing additional burden on the municipal level. We've had to do biweekly inspections of the hotels to make sure that they're livable. We actually, the state of Vermont and the city of Rutland both have hotel quality standards. And those standards due to lack of accountability from the ownerships of the hotel, the owners of the hotels, they were falling by the wayside several years ago. One of the hotels actually needed to be closed in whole because of the poor quality conditions that people were living in. In the city of Rutland, I can't speak to, I know everyone hears about the Cortina Inn, which is in Rutland Town, but I'll specifically speak to Rutland City. So the Quality Inn has been closed in the past as well. Now, because of the demand on the hotels, when we have our building inspection team go in and take a look, what we've asked them to do is be more precise, more scalpel and less blunt hammer, and close rooms instead of the entire hotel. So if specific rooms aren't up to par in quality, we've asked them to take the approach of being more cautious there because what we don't want to do is put more people back out of being sheltered, right? So while this isn't a great solution, it is still the solution that's in place. So we're cautious about that. And back to age five ninety four, don't want to just complain about the old way, but I do want to correlate it to the new bill. Back to May, when you have a guided sheltered structured system, I think that those type of things would be alleviated because you'd be working with the building inspectors and the teams in advance and then keeping that correlated communication.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah, if I could just inject a follow-up to Representative Bishop's question. You've referenced how some of that has been reduced now as the volume at the hotels is reduced, but I think we're all aware that some of the offset of that has been an increase in the people who are unsheltered and homeless encampments. Can you reflect on Rutland's experience with that end and the kind of municipal responses are required as a result?

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: Yeah. We are woefully under resourced to be able to handle that shift, if I and to to say that in the right way. So we are we are lucky to have the state support with the extreme cold weather shelter this winter. However, unlike other communities that have a budget to be able to sustain that shelter in times that aren't extreme cold weather, we don't. So the only resources we have are the ones that are being put in place right now beyond the hotel motel program. So the shelter that's actually being built at Brock, the one that is on target for another section, Loretta Home. And what we've chosen to do in Rutland along with the state we've asked, is we really want to prioritize the most vulnerable first. So, know, elderly, disabled, and families with children. Not that we don't want to try to serve everyone in one way, shape, or form, but if we can only build so many rooms at a time at a rate, we have to try to prioritize in some order there. And again, to circle back to kind of what five ninety four does, it really does. If you look at the structure that you've got in there, it does allow for sheltering space and oversight that if you talk to any shelter, it's almost inherent. If you talk to anybody who's managed or maintained a shelter, you don't want to mix certain populations because you want to keep everybody safe. So if combine prioritization along with that policy, I think you're going to see communities start to be able to develop and maintain shelters in conjunction with the local municipality versus in opposition to. Does that make sense?

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Other

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: questions?

[Speaker 0]: Questions for me. Yeah.

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: Sorry. I'm used to running meetings too.

[Speaker 0]: No. No. It's it's fine. It's fine. I appreciate it. I'm not used to running them, so it's a help. So I wonder Oh, we've got a question here. Representative Cole.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Just thinking about the transition away permanently from homelessness and of course that requires affordable housing. I know about one project in particular, a partnership with the Heritage Family Credit Union and the Local Investment Advisory Committee in Vermont. But I'm curious about, are you seeing, I mean housing takes forever to build, but are you seeing anything open that's made a difference in your work specifically?

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: I'm gonna I'm gonna give you the good

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: news and the bad news. Yeah. The good news the good news is, you know, we have focused heavily on developing all types of housing in Rutland. So what we have is what I would call housing logjam. And if you've heard that term before, I apologize. I tend to repeat it an awful lot. But the idea being that because our housing inventory and our housing stock in Rutland is older, we need all types of housing. We need new market rate housing. We need higher end housing and we need affordable housing. But if we can build any of those types, what that's going to do is free up housing because most of that rental in Rutland is still what would be considered in the HUD affordable range. Right? We're still in that affordable range. So we have been able to build market rate housing and free up affordable housing. We have a great affordable housing partner in Cornerstone. They are building another 32 units in Rutland right now. So, and what they just completed their West Rutland project. So in the county, yes, we've seen affordable housing growth. We need more of it. And we have seen that transition. We've actually worked with homeless prevention center. The state has provided some additional funding and we've gotten people moved out of the hotels and into rental apartments that are being provided by just everyday landlords, which is great. Here's the bad news. Most of those people transition, most of those families transition into a voucher from HUD. And I know that it's going to probably come before your committee if it hasn't already, but the federal government has reduced funding for those vouchers to the point where Rutland, even while we're dealing with so many homeless families, had a surplus of 75 unused housing vouchers because we didn't have enough houses. Now we're starting to see enough houses come online, but the vouchers have been taken away to the point that we're now in a deficit. I think Rutland alone I think the the state of Vermont is at a $10,000,000 deficit for these vouchers, and that'll come before you. But Rutland alone is at a $300,000 deficit for the rest of this year. So there is while there is more and more it's a great question. While there's more housing coming online to be able to transition people out, and we're continuing to work, we're not gonna stop working on that. There is a direct challenge with how we're going to fund housing now for those who are living below, who might have a job but can't afford it otherwise. Does that make sense?

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: Big concern. Thank you. Representative Bishop.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: A question. H five ninety four, I think moves with an aggressive timeline and trying to make a shift from use of the motels to shelters. And preliminary look at the governor's budget seems to be even a more aggressive timeline. And I believe it's aggressive because it seems unclear to me how we'll build the shelter capacity in time to meet the timelines that are set forth in H594 by the governor. And you touched upon some limitations of the providers in your community that are already being pushed up against their limits. So do you have thoughts on how the increased shelter capacity can be built and managed? Whether it needs to be driven by state as a lead, by community partners as a lead, any thoughts in that area would be helpful.

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: Yeah, it's a great question. I think when you look at what we've been able to accomplish, it's taken, I like aggressive, I like to move fast. Realize things don't always operate that way. But I also am the same guy that set 1,000 new units of housing target in a five year period. And we're a quarter of the way there, right? Like, we're moving. So I do think we have the potential to execute at an accelerated rate. You know, we have the new shelter going up that's going to open, what, in a couple of weeks at Brock. That was an eight month, twelve month process. Would I like that to be faster? Sure. But can I with the regulations? Probably not. We're gonna be seeing the same thing from another shelter, the home opportunity. If that executes properly, that'll be open by next winter and be ready to serve. So I don't think that aggressive is necessarily bad, but I do think that the resource constraints could be a challenge. So that's the second half of your question. I think now we have systems in place in Rutland specifically, I can't speak for other communities, that providing those shelters and operating them, we can actually, because we have the timelines and we have the outlook, even without aggressive timeline, we would have the ability to provide those services if called upon and if funded to do so. Another way to say that is, and I don't want to speak for Representative Maguire because I know he's involved in this, and so I'm trying to just draw the line between the two roles. But I do think that there's a system in place because we've taken the time to focus on sheltering in Rutland instead of focus on hotel motel that will allow us to continue to roll out necessary beds to the limit that the community can uphold. Does that answer the question?

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: It does. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Just wondering, are there are there any other pieces, specific pieces of the bill that you think are, you know, particularly impactful and valuable and flip side that you would have concerns about that specific piece and its worthability or value?

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: I know one of the controversial pieces, but for us, it resonates in the bill. It is the fact that we make sure we are housing and it's two aspects of the bill. It's making sure we're housing people near their resources. I think that's really important to talk about. So the and I know the bill has a name for it, but where we can actually sit down and talk to people in the state already does this is say, hey, look, we know you ended up here in Rutland and your family resources are actually in Newport, New Hampshire. And that's where all of your that's where your life is and you needed a place to live and you came here. How do we get you home? I think that is a really, really important aspect because 90% of the time when you talk to the people who are here, they don't have those connections and they don't. Like we are down having conversations with people. Our team is constantly out there and they're saying, yeah, we would love to go home. And we've actually found that to be a great resource. So I think it's really important to continue to leave that in there and focus on funding the ability for people to transit to the locations. And listen, the state plans to do it responsibly. The bill has it in there in a responsible way. We're not gonna send someone somewhere where they don't have the resources. It's actually the opposite. But also in correlation with that is the aspect of we've got people coming to our community that aren't from here challenging those additional resources while there are people from our community that don't have the resources that they need. And it's fine. Vermont is a state and we live in The United States. You can transit across borders for a reason, right? I don't need my passport to go from Vermont to New Hampshire or Rutland to Burlington. That's that's the way we live. I get it totally fine. But as we're trying to calculate and time out and appropriately provide the best services to the people that need it the most, I think being cautious about how we move people around the state and making sure that they are near those resources and near the supports that they have been used to using is really, really important. So how the bill handles that and the delicate nature of that is really important. And I think that's worth taking some time to review. I really do think that Rutland, you hear it all the time. There's the anecdote, I'm not afraid to say things, I'm sorry if this is rude. The anecdotal side of you're not from around here, but at the same time, this is the community to take the, I said this years ago. This is the first community to say, here's the shirt off my back and here's the shirt off my back. It doesn't matter if you're not from right. Here's the shirt off my back. But we have run out of shirts. We don't have any more clothes. That's the situation we're in. So if we're gonna give another shirt, if we're gonna give another piece of clothing, if we're gonna give another coat, if we're gonna give another bed, we need to make sure we are taking care of our communities. And I guarantee you, any community in Vermont that is helping provide these services is going to feel that constraint. And that's why the structure of putting these things in place is so critically important.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Other questions? Other follow-up? Yes. Bishop?

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: The point you've raised about whether there are non Vermonters taking advantage of the program or accessing the resources in Vermont. It's something that's been much discussed, but it seems like it's very difficult to get data to verify the accuracy, the veracity of that. Do you have thoughts on if or how we can get a better handle on whether people are explicitly coming to Vermont for this? Not they've come home, it didn't work out, and now they're homeless. So yes, they lived in Massachusetts the last month, but they grew up in Vermont. Do you have a way of how we can try to get that whether this is or is not a real problem?

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: That's a great question. I know I keep saying that there have been really good questions, sorry. I think it's a tricky one. I think once you're here and you have an ID in the state of Vermont, you're Vermont, right? That's where we're at. So for people that have been participating in the system that are leveraging the resources, I think when we started where we are from here, I think that's we have to look at the real numbers about how the system is being used now, that's their transition point. That's our starting point. Moving forward, though, I do think that, you know, listen, again, I'll say the same thing. We're in The United States. People can travel from state to state. They can come and look for resources. However, I will tell you that if I came from New Hampshire and I have a New Hampshire license and a New Hampshire license plate and I'm living in Vermont, at some point I'm gonna get a knock, a phone call or a letter saying I need, and I've lived here for two years, I need to register my vehicle in Vermont and I need to get a Vermont license. Right? There is a transitional aspect for other services. That's not the only one, right? Like my taxes, I can't live in Rutland and pay New Hampshire tax, right? There's certain things that have to be done when you live in this state or when you transition from another state. So there probably could be a process put in place to talk about that state to state migration, if that's necessary. But I think what we need to focus on more so, if I could pivot a little bit, is the fact that people need to be close to those, the people that we're serving need to be close to the resources that provide them the most safety and the most connection. And that's where I think if you focus on that, the other pieces will kind of naturally matriculate. And that's, I think the way the bill is written now kind of covers at least at the high level of those components.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Any other questions? Yes, Representative Cole. Thank you. I find this for other witnesses as well because I want to get many perspectives here. But my eye keeps being drawn to page 17 of the bill, is the time limits for program participation. And the first line is tier one and tier 1A placement shall not exceed sixty days. And so these are interesting numbers just considering the context of which we live and the changing, the fact that HUD vouchers are decreasing, like we said, well, other things may be increasing or decreasing in terms of housing stock. But yeah, just curious about your gut reaction to the numbers. I

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: don't know that the bill has or hasn't been revised yet from its first reading. I happened to be there, which was awesome. And I was glad to sit in on that. I remember correctly, there is provisions for situations where there's not available housing to transition to the next step. I don't know if that's tier one and tier 1A. I don't remember. I do think it's important. So one of the projects when I first became mayor three years ago that we wanted to do was something called the transitional housing campus. And one of the thoughts was there was a period of time that you would be here and then you would transition out to affordable housing. I think the idea and the concept of having time limits and goals is really important for us as humans. If any of you have children, there's never been a time I'm sure, or if you don't have, you have a dog or a cat or whatever pets, you have metrics. We have metrics for ourselves and we have metrics for the people in our lives. And the reason is because we can't let things linger forever. So having dates is important. If those dates are correct, the sixty, ninety days, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that question if that's the right number. I would leave that up to the experts. I'm not one of them. But one of the things that we did find is having in the process of trying to establish whether this transitional housing will work is there are already state and federal laws about tenancy that you have to pay attention to, that's really important. And there are components of transitioning where you might have to take a little bit longer and you're going to need exceptions to the rule because availability of resources aren't there. So I would say if you're going to set timelines like sixty, ninety days, maybe those are the right timelines, but having the appropriate and controlled exceptions is really important too. Being able to, and I think it's currently in the hands of the commissioner or the AHS in the bill, I think that's written in that they would have the ability to establish those policies the appropriate transition points. And I think that is where the experts come into play. I love the legislature giving guidelines. I think it's really important to say this is what the state wants. I'm a big fan of that. But then allowing to work within those guidelines, I think is really important too. So having, so my answer would be, I don't know if those numbers are correct, but I do know that having deadlines are gonna be important for the next, in order to push, not to push people, but to push us as the people providing the services to ensure that we're doing the right things and we're not dragging our feet. Because for someone who runs a city, I have one hundred and eighty days to approve a permit, but can we get it done in forty five? Because that's what we really should be doing. That type of thing. You know what I mean? Let's drive us to make that right change.

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Last question here.

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: Well, not necessarily a question, but to both the points. I believe we probably need to get some clarifying intent within this bill to make it recognizable that, yes, here is this time limit set, then there is minimal language in there right now. But to clarify that that time stops, if somebody's actively looking for a placement and there's a delay past that time, no, they're not gonna be removed from the current location due to the lack of available units. And I wanna make sure that we have that intent in there. It is not the intent at how it was designed to say, listen, you have sixty days at this location. And if when that sixty day mark hits, no matter how hard you work, how much effort you put in, you're out the door. No. That is not the intent. It's a it's a time recognizing like, hey. Let's set a standard, let's set a bar. And as the mayor had mentioned, we have a timeframe that we work in, but we use discretion and discernment and recognizing the efforts there. There's just no placement at this time to move up. Therefore, you stay put. Now, is so I just felt it was important to clarify that. And to your point, I think it's also important that we get that language clarified within the bill. Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Yes, please. Final comments?

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: Yeah. I do want to say after, like I said, I've been mayor for three and a half years, or three years, was on the Board of Aldermen for the previous two. And I watched how the hotel, how the GA program was able to, you know, I'll put it, they'll put it bluntly to save lives and provide shelter and a time where the need was absolutely great. But I've also seen the other side on how that's put the burden on the communities. I believe $5.94 is a great first step. Listen, it's not perfect. You've got some work to do. Sorry, you're going be busy. But it's a great first step to changing the way Vermont creates a dignified system for those households that need shelter and really the supports to be able to transition to a place where they can sustain on their own. And I think it's a beautiful thing to see you guys working on this this year. I'm very excited about it. And I think what you'll find is that the city of Rutland along with other communities are very supportive because we're not saying, hey, state, go do this on your own. We're saying we like that you're working on this and we're here to help implement those components when the time comes. So thank you for working on this and thank you for taking the time to take a deep look at how we can provide some real dignity and shelter for those in need. I really appreciate that.

[Speaker 0]: Well, thank you very much for your time and your insights. Very much appreciated.

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: No problem. Have a great day.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Thanks, ma'am. Thank you.

[Mayor Mike Doenges (Rutland City)]: Talk to you later.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you. And we are now joined by our second witness on this area. As I said earlier, we are going to be hearing from a variety of folks who are impacted and organizations who are impacted by the issue of homelessness around the state, including our public libraries. So Wendy, welcome to the House Human Services Committee, and the floor is yours. Please introduce yourself, and then we look forward to hearing from you about the challenges and opportunities and the things that you encounter each day in your role running library services in your community.

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: Okay. Great. Thanks for inviting me. I am the director of Brownell Library in Essex Junction in Chittenden County. We are a bus ride away from Burlington, so we have had an ongoing stream. I've been at Brownell for seventeen years, and the bus has always brought people into Essex Junction. Prior to COVID, I actually learned from the director in Burlington that people would take sort of field trips to Essex Junction just to get out of Burlington for a while. So we're not new to having unhoused visitors, but it has really ramped up in the past, I would say, five years. In early COVID, we were seeing people who were just passing through in crisis, And then it's just gotten more intense. The mental health issues have been more intense. And clearly, the people that are unhoused are in a different situation, I would say, than ten years ago because there really is no housing available. So we've had more and more people that we know have jobs that still can't afford to get a home anywhere. One thing that we really have benefited from is our outreach team that is organized by our local police and Howard Center. And they this team serves, I believe, nine community communities at this point where they're all embedded with the police. It was originally organized as a pilot program before COVID to deal with the mental health issues because we just didn't have the services and having somebody in crisis and calling the police was an option. We're lucky to have a police department in Essex Junction that's very community based, but we also A lot of people who are dealing with mental health issues are very afraid of people in uniform. So it could often get even in spiral out of control when somebody we did call the police. So it wasn't a great resolution for dealing with those people in crisis. The motel program really kept things, I would say, more calm for quite a while. And as the motels were closing down, we were seeing more and more people who were coming to the library. And I would say two summers ago, you could just tell which people were getting purged by who was showing up. And so I just there was multiple people, I would think, in 2024 that I would just see coming lost in the library. And they would just be like, oh, I'm just here to sit. And then I would just be like, are you do you need to talk to somebody that might be able to help you? And and the trauma of seeing people just break down in tears because they had no other sources of help. So the Howard team has helped with us considerably by just allowing somebody giving somebody to talk to. We don't have the staffing to manage. We're not as we're not social work people, but we do point to resources. And so it's been an amazing resource for us to be able to just sort of the team early on would talk to anybody, and then they realized that certain people just didn't wanna deal with anybody in the system. So then we would then ask people if they wanted to talk to somebody. And so it's been a pretty positive resource for us to be able to access, but it's not perfect by any stretch because if there's no housing or resources or job programs that have openings, then they can try to help, and they are the ones that will be at the very front line of knowing what is available. So that's been really helpful for us. In more recent years, we've had more people sleeping outside the library, which has been, I think, a shock to our community. These are people that, when I've spoken to them, they just don't wanna be near Burlington. Burlington has, I think, an epic amount of homelessness as we all hear in the news, but there's also services there. So that's why so many people are there. But there's also a lot of addiction and crime in those areas. So people have really wanted I think they like the calmness of Essex Junction more, and we really work to keep our library safe and welcoming for everybody. So we do have some of the stresses are also community members that are sort of like, why are those people here? And we're just like, if they if they follow the rules, then they're allowed here just like you. And going into this winter with no options, it was really stressful for staff going, I think, Thanksgiving week, it was really we're looking at our first real cold spell. And the outreach teams had previously been giving out sort of lightweight sleeping bags for people as their option for providing a place for people to stay, which is pretty pathetic. And the tents that people were given that were donated by community members in Chittenden County. And there was just people that were there was one guy that was just like, I don't know what I'm gonna do when it gets cold. And then one of our community members gave him a sub zero sleeping bag, and the relief I saw on his face when he had that was incredible. And it's just been heartbreaking to see like, that's where we're at in our state right now to understand the depth of the homeless problem. Like the person that was so excited about a sleeping bag was trying to keep unemployed, but was having a hard time sleeping, so he was having a hard time getting up. And he even noted that in the motel programs, it was often really loud, so he'd have trouble sleeping at night because there was always slamming doors and yelling. So it wasn't a perfect solution, but having, I think, more wraparound services with our outreach team has really helped a lot for getting people more connected to help. And they float around, they are based, we have different people that sort of specialize in the different areas, but then when you call them, they may be coming from South Burlington or Shelburne, or they often are at the Essex Police Station. So those that's been an amazing service. But since this past summer, we had construction outside of our library and we had a porta potty outside. And when that porta potty disappeared, we were seeing human feces around the library. So we put like a dog poop bag dispenser so people could clean up after themselves. So it's been really trying to think outside the box of just trying to keep our library safe and welcoming to all and trying to find a balance. Like, we have kids that are playing outside and play hide and seek outside, and we really don't want them to be experiencing finding poop in their favorite hiding places. And we don't really have there's definitely injection drug users in Essex Junction, but I would say that these homeless people are not involved in that. They're really just trying to get their feet under them. So it's the stereotypes of the unhoused are somebody there's a lot of people that will make assumptions, but it's not really something that as I've spoken to so many of these people passing through, they are all coming from different things. The privilege that you have when you grow up in a house where you have a family to go back to if you're in rough shape is not something everybody has. And so it's been alarming and heartbreaking in many ways, but also great when we've heard that people are now in housing because of us calling outreach, and then they would get them into something temporary. And then they've said that they've heard from people like, oh, they get to celebrate their kid's first birthday in an apartment that they're now in. So that's been great to hear that the system is sort of working, but it's just not enough. Like our outreach team is not available 20 fourseven. So if there's somebody in crisis that comes in at 07:00 at night to the library, there's not much we can do outside of just handing them a resource brochure and giving them a place to be until we close. So it's been an ongoing juggle. It's been traumatic for staff. But we also have trained for years because of the mental health issues that we're seeing. So we have staff trained in de escalation and being able to just sort of meet people as humans instead of as problems when they come into our building.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you, Wendy. I just want to first say thank you for the approach that you use. And honestly, you just said to treat people as humans is the first thing that you do. And when you see a human in need, you try to help. And that's exactly what you're doing. And so thank you for that. And I realize that's beyond the scope of being a librarian, but also understanding that it's a public place, you're welcoming all members of the public there. I have a couple of questions, and then there may be some other questions from other folks in the community, I mean, in the committee. You referenced early on when you began your testimony that what you're seeing because you've been there for quite a while, that what you're seeing now is different than what you saw ten years ago. Do you mean in the numbers of people? Do you mean in the needs of people? Or can you elaborate a little bit more about what you mean?

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: Yes. I would say ten years ago, we would have definitely, now we have more people. And we don't go around identifying people, so but some a lot of the unhoused are very noticeable when they have multiple bags. Mhmm. And so that's when just, like, a sort of where I get to say, like, we have more people, and then you just see more people staying day in and day out at the library. Libraries are very common to have just a place of respite from the world for everybody, but the unhoused like, if they don't sleep well at night, they can be in a corner or at a chair. And as long as they're not, like, stretched out and across a couch in our library, we're fine with that. Like some libraries don't tolerate sleeping, but everybody, there's too many people that fall asleep reading the newspaper and we're gonna

[Rep. Esme Cole (Member)]: just let that one know.

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: And so it's just changed. Think that seeing people, I think there are some people that are just chronically unhoused and there isn't much you can do as a community. And I think that's what we saw more like ten years ago. And now it's really people much more in crisis that are coming in,

[Rep. Eric Maguire (Member)]: Mhmm.

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: And that's not their choice. Like, there are some people who may opt to just be like a freewheeling. Let's just float around. I have a relative like that who just likes to cruise around, and that's what we've seen more in the summer, I would say, at Brownell. And once it gets colder, then they those people disappear, but these are more, like, long term people that you come like, we've seen them come and go, and they may have had temporary housing that's then gone away. So that's how I've gotten to know more of the people that have been unhoused at Brownell, which I really like, I I would say we've gotten to know more people, like, in the past just because of chronic rule breaking, and this is where people like, they just want a safe place to stay, and they're not unless they have severe mental health issues, they're generally quiet and rule abiding, but we do have definitely issues with more. We've had more fights in the past few years than we have, not necessarily with unhoused, but just people who are more on the edge. The environment's changed considerably in Vermont.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you. And then you talked about the Howard Center's outreach team and connection with law enforcement and stuff. I'm just wondering if you are seeing anybody from or if you see CVOEO, the Office of Economic Opportunity and or COTS and their folks there, are you seeing them as being present in your community?

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: I wouldn't say present. CVOEO had, I think maybe three years ago, reached out because of the CORA program with the that's their homeless outreach program. And they said, we're really supposed to be servicing all of Chittenden County. And so we really wanted to let you let you know what resources we have. So we have sort of listings of what they offer and, like, places people could shower and do laundry, and they have a mobile van. But last year, they said, we really are just too too spread out thin in Burlington, and we really can't make it out. So they've been in like, I've been touched by email, but I think that they're what they're dealing with is really pushing them to their own limits at this point. Mhmm. So that's why having local outreach that is really kind of dedicated to our area has been really helpful because they I think we've had just, like, a cup one time, and a worker came out just to deliver because I when I was noticing people that were starting sleep like, we have a pavilion outside our library. And so a couple of years ago, I just started noticing people were hanging hammocks up in it, and they would take them down during the day. So it wasn't like it was becoming an encampment situation, But I was we've we now give out we have emergency thermal blankets with foil blankets, and we tape them to the pavilion, and that's something that really was a stop, get measure in the fall where the people that had more summer sleeping bags were like, this is really helpful. Thank you so much. And regular residents can get or patrons can get them to stick in their car or whatever, so something we offer everybody. But that certainly changed. It's changed considerably just seeing that people may die outside at this point in the winter or as winter's approaching, and December's a long ways away when we hit cold weather as far as the real emergency cold weather shelters.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you. Questions from other committee members? Right. I'm not seeing any hands go up. Wendy, do you have any last Oh, no.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Sorry.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. That's okay. Go ahead, Representative Bishop.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: I'm wondering if there's any sort of collaboration formally or informally with other libraries. I certainly am aware of having worked downtown Burlington for twenty five years at the Fletcher Free Library experiences, some of the same had more of the issues that you've discussed. Is there collaboration in any way?

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: I wouldn't say collaboration. We definitely network. We meet regularly as county library directors and sort of share information. I think we're getting more, we're more frequently sharing information about sort of people who are suffering from severe mental illness that may be a danger to our communities because there's also not a great way for anybody that's if you're an adult, you can't be forced into getting help. So we've tried to collaborate with both Outreach and some other libraries to sort of track what's going on because if somebody like, we've had and it's been years since we've had to do that, but having like, if people are no trespassed, if they break it enough no if they break it to a no trespass order, then they might be able to at least get evaluated by being held overnight or something. So it's not great. But, yeah, there's not much that I think we're kind of at the forefront because we do have a bus stop. So I talked to the director in Burlington regularly, and it's it's a very different world in Burlington versus Essex Junction. It sounds like there's actual communities of homeless in Burlington that, like, support each other and kind of like, it's almost territorial. And for a while, I think it was really rough at Fletcher Free with things going on inside the library that sounds like people may have temporary moved on or something. So it's and now they have full time security there. They had originally done a just contracted with a security vendor, but really wanted to be able to work more with the security team versus just having a vendor that didn't have all the access to Burlington resources as city staff. And then now they're work they have more like, a Howard person that's based out of their library connect with people all the time, and we really haven't gotten to that point yet. We do have regular trainings for our own staff on safety and sort of de escalation. We just had a jujitsu training just in case just because we have had fights, not necessarily with the unhoused, but it's it's the humans aren't doing terribly well in many ways, I would guess, is the best way to say it.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Go ahead, Noyes. I'm interested in

[Rep. Daniel Noyes (Clerk)]: the percentage of individuals you see coming through who could be homeless, who are older Vermonters that are coming to your library?

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: We haven't seen that many elderly people. We did a couple of years ago, and I think outreach has more resources for people that are out I think there's more resources for elderly people than there are for younger people. I think what we've seen is more people that aren't a protected category. Like, I think we've seen more of like, in 2024, I saw multiple women, I think, that were and we do continue to see women that are sort of victims of domestic abuse that come like, leave their housing situation to just keep themselves safe. And there's more programs for people like that, and it's more this sort of middle population of people that are they're disabled, they're not old enough to get certain resources, they don't have kids, they're kind of really stuck in the middle with no options. And that's the people we've seen more outside and inside our building.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Which I would say has a direct correlation to the changes that the legislature made and who is eligible for general assistance emergency housing three years ago. So you just described them well, right, then?

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: Yeah, it's something I've just learned over time just from the people that are around, and it depends on who qualifies for disability, but there's a lot of people that are just slipping through the cracks.

[Rep. Jubilee McGill (Member)]: Any other questions? Go ahead. Are there specific ways we should support libraries? It's been great hearing you as someone who spent a lot of time in my library growing up and just knowing there are spaces for all of us to be in. Are there tangible ideas or suggestions you have that ways our state could be better supporting you as you're assisting with this crisis despite it not really being part of your role?

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: I've when I've been at statewide meetings, I've gotten comments saying you're really lucky to have a Howard team that you have access to. I think that's one of the biggest assets we have because it's somebody that we can call in that can just help, and then we can go back to our own work having people that are trained and no resources. They're not there's it's an outreach team, so they're not official social workers, but they are they have access to a lot of those resources. And it's it's a middle ground, and it's been really helpful for us. Then when the program first started, I think it was launched in 2017, it was like, I nearly hugged the people that came in to say, hey. Were you new outreach workers? Because we had seen just people even elderly people that, like, their husband had died, and they were like, they had dementia, and we didn't know what to do with them. We knew that they were suffering. They we they didn't look great, but there wasn't really a resource to point them to. And so even on that level before this real crisis, that was very helpful. And, yeah, I know the director in Rutland has regularly lamented that they wish they had something like our outreach team because they are definitely in a world of crisis in the Rutland area.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: So that's that's something members to sort of keep in mind when we're we're gonna have all of the agency of human services departments will be testifying on h five ninety four next week. And so when we hear from Commissioner Paz that we, I guess, inquire about that. I think it's funded locally. Recollection is I think communities have banded together in Chittenden County to fund that team.

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: It's through the police. The police departments were the ones that recognize the need, but I had been in touch with our chief of police plenty before that. So he knew exactly what I was, I would be thrilled to find that they created this service.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: It's You were letting them know that it was money well spent, it sounds

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: Yes, and I continue to anytime I can with our city council or whomever, I'm like, please just keep funding it. And I think we're now hitting it. The towns are having a harder time funding it. And so that is something when I talked to our city manager, she said, like, we we're very willing to fund it, but it it's really savings through having nine towns chip in versus fewer is a big difference. And so we have a high call volume. South Burlington has a high call volume. But some of the smaller towns, I'm concerned they may decide to cut the service, which would potentially impact our ability to keep it. So that's really a concern.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Yeah. For sure. Any other questions for Emily or Wendy? Excuse me. Alright. Thank you so much, Wendy. And again, thank you for the approach that you're using there in Essex. And just so you know, your your specific state representative, everyone, to make sure that you've got an opportunity to testify. I promised that back last fall. We appreciate the opportunity to hear about the things that work and some of the challenges that you've seen and the differences that you've seen over time in how your library is being utilized and what your response and reactions are to those changes. So appreciate it very much.

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: Yeah, we really appreciate that the state is looking into this to hopefully find some solutions because it's been hard and it's not what any of us signed up for, for sure, but we read it for people. So here we are.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Thank you so much, Wendy.

[Wendy Hysko (Director, Brownell Library, Essex Junction)]: Thanks a lot.

[Rep. Doug Bishop (Member)]: Bye bye.

[Rep. Theresa Wood (Chair)]: Okay, folks. That brings us to the conclusion of this morning's testimony. So, you'll have a little bit of extra time at lunch. Just as a reminder, we're meeting back here at 01:15. So you have a little

[Speaker 0]: bit