Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Is that additional chair there?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Maybe.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Welcome back everyone, afternoon, April 3, and really excited. We're getting to see some new witnesses that we rarely get to see from Fish and Wildlife and ANR.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Thank you so much, madam chair. My name is Jason Batchelder. I'm the commissioner of Fish and Wildlife Department. I'm most recently the DEC commissioner. And before that, I was a retired stay at home dad. Before that, I was the director of the warden service, for eight years, and then I was a was a peaceful nonadministrative game warden prior to that. But I'm I'm excited very much to be here presenting this to you all, in a in a awareness in setting. This was, I'm joined by Charles Martin, who's deputy secretary of the agency. This is his this is his, brainchild. He recognizes the department has been doing wonderful work managing for food security for as long as we've been in existence, but really not talking about it in a meaningful way as it relates to how people perceive hunting, how people perceive the department, how people look at land and habitat conservation as sort of aiming in this direction. And so Abigail is going to share her slides hopefully with us and so you can follow along. She's gonna start sharing looks like right off. There we go. We've given this a few times so maybe an inconsistency here and there and I take full credit for that. So I apologize. I'm gonna advance it right along. We'll go to slide two, Abigail. So this is a few snapshots into our

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: April 3, by the way. No, on your first slide, you had the House Committee on Healthcare February 3.

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: Two months before. Yeah,

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: we've done this. I think this is our third or fourth go, but thanks for next time. So we are at as we sit here today, we're about 109,000 resident hunters and anglers. Non resident numbers were leaving aside. This is just our Vermont numbers now. And looking at, you can see the numbers by town. When we look at these numbers, we're experiencing a trend that is, some say is downward trending as far as numbers go. But we like to think of our participation rates as very high and robust, but not being able to represent the children that we are not having. We can't sell licenses or share experiences with people that are not here any longer. We are, as we all know, experiencing that downward trend in our democrats. License sales increased during economic uncertainty. Wanted to take a minute on that bullet. We'll lead into some COVID numbers. But as it relates to food security, you may all know or you may not during times of uncertainty like COVID, these numbers go very high. We have very high participation rates, both fishing and hunting. And and as it as it relates, to to those trapping as well. We are, stable in our numbers given what the qualifier that I shared with you that we we are we are experiencing low numbers of of young people traditionally, we would have, many more abilities to share these licensing operate license license opportunities with folks, but we simply don't have them. And and the ones that do reach a certain age do tend to leave Vermont, not always, but some. And on the graph there, can see our highest towns by participation and by sales. We'll go to the next slide, there we go. As I mentioned earlier, we look significantly at our our role as one, that provides a lot of things. But among those, are sustainable hunting and fishing opportunities. Affordable quality experiences and an ability to gather food from the land and the water. When when I came to work at the Bishop Island Department, I didn't always consider this. Right? I I came looking through a law enforcement lens, being returning in different capacity. This very much what I look at when I come to work every day is how we can support people who are filling their freezer with venison, fish, bear meat, moose meat, and anything else they want to legally harvest. And I think a lot of the staff goes to work every day thinking the same way. And a lot of that these days is through land and habitat conservation and providing that base for for wildlife to thrive. Next slide, please. So, some of the numbers that you'll, see that correspond to these opportunities, are are remarkably affordable. If someone were to buy their license on January 1, these numbers are very, very low. I like to buy my licenses in December when they become available. Mine costs a little more than this because I think I fall into the avid category, where

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: I add on a lot

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: of licenses like archery and, muzzleloader. So mine are a little bit more expensive. But you can see down the list that even so compared to, and excluding folks who don't eat meat like my wife, my wife does not consume the venison at harvest, but the kids do. People that do buy meat, can get it much cheaper out of their back door without license. And so we put those numbers there, they're kind of neat to see. And once folks reach a certain age, they do age out of their requirement to pay. Another consideration for us and a really neat stat that we like to show that's to our peril is that upwards of nineteen percent of all infants born in Vermont receive a, are usually gifted a lifetime. So they're not paying into this. But we love that system. It has borne out wonderful, hunters and anglers. A lot of people in my in my sphere have these licenses in it, and it is one less thing that the kids don't have to buy when they reach age, whatever, when they start

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: to hunt a fish. I think Allen has a question. Yeah. I'd like

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: to know what what's the cost of the license the lifetime license for kids today?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Yeah. I I would be guessing. So it's it's based on the age that

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: they buy it. Yeah. I I knew that.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Under one, it's $374.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Look at that.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Because you

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: bought it from other kids, and

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: you know Oh, that's great. I knew it's gone up, you know, from what they had told me. That's a great thing.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: Absolutely. When did Vermont start offering lifetime licenses for children?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Another wonderful question that I should know the answer to. Within It my scope of being able to remember between twenty and thirty years ago.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: The reason I ask is because you've mentioned how the amount of licenses has declined and you talked about young people leaving, but I'm wondering if another piece of it is that once people have their lifetime license, then you don't see them reapplying because they have a lifetime license.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: That is astute. That is exactly a point that I swing and miss on all the time, pointing out in graphics. We can't capture them, unless they harvest an animal. So if they harvest an animal, they have to go to a report station and report that animal like a deer. They're required to report that. Also falling into this category are landowners. If you own land in Vermont, you can hunt that land without a license. And the only way we exactly.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: I could shoot a rat poo on my land without a license. Season.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: In season, you could.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: In season. One point. I got feel you own

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: 45. Wait. Wait. Is there a raccoon season? Yeah. Yeah.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: What is it?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: The last Saturday in October. So you can get some interviews. December 31.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Just the I don't know.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: You don't have to own 2580.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: We're gonna own

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: No. It's own land. He got September and October to shoot him.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: Early Timuracoon spent on Hiberty.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: You you may have an ordinance you wanna check out in Berlin. Yeah.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: Does it matter what you, like, take someone?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Yes. So

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: I don't think we can use rifles and burn them.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Name is is to be harvested by a gun fired at arm's length or archery equipment. Raccoon is a fur bearer, so you can trap them as well. You can use a live trap for raccoons and dispatch them outside of town. That is something that people do.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: Thank you, I'm just gonna let them know.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Let the words for him.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Yeah, just let them.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Some

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: license. 25 acres for

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: an analyst permit. Exactly. For a what permit? For a for a doe permit. We we say antlerless. So if you wanna do apply for an analyst permit and you have 25 acres or more, we add you to the top of the list if you agree to keep your land open for hunting. So there's a caveat there. It's like an incentive. It's an incentive. You usually get a DOE tag if you agree to keep your land open for hunting if you own 25 acres or more.

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: Yeah. It's probably also worth pointing out the and you might have captured this, Jason, so I apologize. But the lifetime license, it's like a base license that you're getting for any additional

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: tags or not just

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: You can get the express You

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: would Yeah, you'll get your combo every year, but you would be spending additional money to buy specialty tags.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: It's mostly not a turkey.

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: It wouldn't be good for

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: a moose or a turkey or a bear. I'm sorry. A bear of wood. Sorry. But not a Raccoon. You have to apply.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Raccoon. Early season, bitch?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: It would not include an early season bear. Just the late season. The early season is $5 add on as well.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: Is there a rabbit season?

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Is it? Yes.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: It is.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Let's raise hands. Please.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: Have you explored Okay, I go to Alaska every year, and I do a lot of fishing. And I pay a lot more than $28 for my license and my

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: cane bags. Have you

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: explored fees and increasing fees and the cost analysis of that? We

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: have, sorry.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: I was just going to go let's

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: We explored, so maybe most acutely to what you're mentioning, salmon stamp or a trout stamp. It has not made the cut year over year. Fact, when I came to the department, returned to the department July 8, and it was one of the first things that was suggested for legislative, priorities this year. It did not make the cut. But we do, so you're paying an, I'm assuming you're paying a non resident license fee when you go to Alaska major. So we have a corresponding major increase for folks who are coming from away to this year. So our license fee is what you see there. A a non resident would be would be paying upwards of $50, maybe a little over $50. So more than double, what a resident would pay. Still a heck of a deal, and I'm sure you find it a heck of a deal in Alaska for what you're able to harvest. And and, you know, we have we have extraordinary world class fishing opportunities here in Vermont also, not for not for kings and cohos and and other wonderful salmon you would find there. But we do on Lake Champlain, Lake Champlain is a world class fishery. It's very close to home. All of the fish we have accessible to us are abundant and plentiful and healthy. And we do spend quite a bit of time and I have a slide on it, think. Our fish culture section produces hundreds of thousands of pounds of edible healthy fish for folks to eat in Vermont and our limits are very generous. They've been knocked down over the years, but they're still very generous for folks who wanna put fish away for eating.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: You mentioned that you can hunt on your own land. Can you fish on your own land without paying a fee if something happens to run through your

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Yes. So yes. So there are two ways. So if if the river flows through your land, you can you can fish from your shores. There there's a lot of nuance to this that I I I wouldn't wanna get into without general counsel present, but, you can fish, on your own land if something flows through your property. We even have provisions where you can stock those stretches of river with permission from the department if it's public water. And if you own all the way around a body of water, you certainly wouldn't have to have a license to fish in it. I'm just wondering,

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: again, this is what happens when someone comes into the healthcare committee and it's a topic we have no idea of, ignorant questions.

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: Not at all.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Don't we as a state pay for fisheries, hatcheries to stock things and yet people could be able to take advantage of that without paying any sort of fees at all?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: In a minor way. In a minor way. So we make a habit of only stocking places that are that are accessible to the public. We we wouldn't come to your private public and stop there, and so those considerations are are accounted for. When when you see the stocking truck, it's usually at a place where where almost almost anyone can get to. I would say anyone can get to. The fish don't always stay there. They they find other places to go, but we stock in in places where the public can get to them.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I'm sorry, go ahead, Daisy.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: I just have to say, think actually it was Abigail invited me one time to go visit a hatchery. And I went up and had such a wonderful time. I was just so impressed with your operations and your staff and the health of the fish that we saw. And

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: it's remarkable.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: You're in good company. We are blown away by our fish culture staff routinely and we're currently in a restructuring overview. What are we calling it? Restructuring. Yeah, we're looking at our hatcheries to see if there's possibilities to lean them down because they're expensive. They came to us and they looked at all five of our hatcheries and said this may be the North Star that by which we now march forward. We're not sure where to go from here because you look like the best we've ever seen. So you're in good company. Even the consultants have agreed that, we're doing a wonderful job. Nothing to do with me. This is all staff and the history behind our fish culture section. They're just very, dedicated, very dedicated. I'm gonna head to the next slide and we'll get as far as we can and happy to come back also. Nationwide, meat is the top hunting motivation and fresh fish is number five for why people go fishing. In Vermont, hunting for bear meat is by far the biggest reason why people hunt for bear. Vermont has a funny culture around bear. I grew up in a family that didn't hunt them. Do now, but my father was always like, nope, don't waste a day of deer hunting on dragging a bear up. And you find a lot of people like that, until they try it and then it's a wonderful, wonderful, healthy protein. Small game very important, waterfowl very important, and we strangely don't have any new research on deer and deer hunting or anglers, but we know I mean my protein when my wife buys me for the family, kind of give her the hairy eyebrow. I point to the freezer where all the deer are stored, but I hunt for meat. Most people in my circle hunt for meat, so that's the motivation. So I'm on to the next slide, Abigail. Looking at a COVID study that I alluded to earlier, food insecure households were more likely to hunt fish and forage than people who reported they were food secure. A very, a very neat thing to point out in Vermont. And the interest and participation in hunting and fishing at the food stores did increase during the pandemic. Some some snapshots into the median income by Vermonters and resident hunters there is is is super interesting to me too. Looking at some of the yields that we have as far as moose, deer, bear, wild turkey in Vermont. When Charles asked for these numbers, we aimed very low and we're using ground beef numbers. So these numbers are likely amplified by many, many times. And did you want to mention the national study?

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: Yeah, have a little bit to extrapolate on for this one. So on that earlier slide with your licensing investment, assuming you buy a $47 license, it's looking at like, for instance, you're fortunate enough to harvest one deer. You've got about 50 ish pounds of venison there at if you were to acquire it on a market, it's about $20 a pound. So you can do the math that you essentially pay for your license with two pounds of venison of which you have 48 if you have just one deer. Our estimate, as Jason points to, is extremely conservative. We use the ground beef multiplier just for all poundage. That includes waterfowl, moose, bear, turkey, whitetail. We just called it a total poundage and then multiplied it by ground beef averages in the month of September according to USDA numbers. We wanted to be really careful about how we did this just to make sure we weren't giving bad data. That number also notably doesn't include fish harvest. If you had fish harvest in there, which we don't have accurate enough data for, you could potentially see that number increase significantly, if not double.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Are you referring to the next slide that's not being shown?

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: Oh, yeah, I'm looking at Jason's slide. Sorry. Yeah, sorry. So yeah, this is the $6,000,000

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: we're talking about. There's the poundage, but it doesn't include fish data.

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: So that would almost immediately double immediately. And there's also a really brilliant gentleman at the Michigan State University, Jerry Bellin, who did this study, but for every single state. And they used a little bit more minutiae on the way they calculated poundage and actually assessed Vermont as having a $9,000,000 value harvest. They call it replacement cost is how they were. It's kind of like what you'd have to buy at the store if you didn't get this. So according to Michigan State University, I spoke with Jerry, who may have a really sound analytical approach for this. We're at about $9,000,000 going into Vermonters freezers predominantly or skewing low income Vermonters every year. And that's not counting fish again, which I really want to emphasize could be a lot higher. And nationally, it's about $3,300,000,000 is what The United States puts in its freezer every year from lawful harvest and regulated states. So it really is just an incredible component of our food security structure that I think doesn't always get the daylight that it deserves. And this isn't academic or theoretical to me. I grew up in Vermont with a lot of households where I'm quite certain a lot of was fortunate to be economically secure, but a lot of my friends, venison was the red meat they were going to eat. And without venison, they certainly would not be eating that quality of protein at all. That still holds true for a lot of the families I know in Vermont, but it was especially acute, at least when I was younger and a little bit more in it. So yeah, just wanted to point that out.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Brian, just to put

[Brian Cina (Member)]: things in perspective, do you know the estimated overall population of each of these animals so we can see exactly how much are being harvested?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: We do. I would miss the mark if I tried to give you them this moment, I have a

[Brian Cina (Member)]: general idea of the percentage.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: With deer, we're we're at roughly 140 to 150,000 deer on the landscape. We and we harvest, we we try to harvest, upwards of 20% of that number. We don't get there every year. Bear, we're between we're between 6,810 bears. We've just had a meeting on this before we came. I would say the biologists would probably push me down to 9,500, but there's variance in all these models. The wild turkey and the moose, I'm gonna have to hold back on those.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: It sounds like the targeted harvest though is around 10 to 20%. I'm guessing that that reflects natural predation if humans weren't interfering with the food web.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: There is much more to it that I don't understand, but let's say there are 10 facets of society who are affected by deer on the landscape, insurance companies foresters and agriculture. They all factor into this social carrying capacity as well as the natural carrying capacity of these deer. And so a healthy deer population on the landscape might be well and good, except if you're a farm, except if you're a progressive auto insurer. These all might be well and good for someone but not others. So we take all these into account. And then we still rarely meet that mark and we want to harvest. And you can cue the fall that we're about to experience where, we've opened up antlerless harvest to, much more modern firearms. So this will be the first year in about 40 where you can harvest a dough with a high power brine. A cultural anomaly across the country, we're the last state, the last state that has deer, that has allowed it. So we're going to do that this November. Absolutely, great question.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: If I could, was your question about natural predators to deer, was that what you were thinking? That's what I'm wondering about, I mean, they're humans, but there are other, the deer, what rises in the southern part of the state, which is not mentioned here, it seems like they're a lot bigger and they're doing a lot of damage. So how to think about that as an over, there's no predators. I mean, they're coyotes, but maybe not enough. I don't really know how you manage that.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Sure, it's a consideration and to have missed a piece that I meant to mention, there is less winter kill than it used to be. We would always joke that we try to manage deer, but winter actually manages deer. Without these severe winters, of which, curiously, this past winter was a hair above average as far as the span of winters go. Seemed very brutal to us at times, but was on the scale of average across the board. We've been in a spell of very mild winter. And so this one, we all felt it was severe, but the winter kill will not reflect that this was a severe winter, but that's what managed deer and predation was among what managed deer in the winter, right? Deep snow, deer can't get away, coyotes get them. And it's bobcat and it's bear in the spring. There are certainly a lot of things that prey on deer. Fisher certainly would grab a pawn, right? So and there are, natural disease factors that you know are probably very low on the on the scale in Vermont. Some habitat loss certainly plays into it, but all considered in some way for sure. In our harvest,

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: Jason, if like if we were to go back ten years, the amount of white till you harvest relative now hasn't changed a

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: little bit. It has. We've tried to create extraordinary opportunity. This year, we've added upwards of sixty days, to the hunting season. If you live in Montpelier, you can start with archery equipment on September 15, if you're hunting within the city limits, and and a few other towns that experience high deer densities. We've opened that season up. We don't we don't think it's gonna make a huge difference, but it, you know, it's an opportunity we can provide. And then the analyst harvest and then extending the seasons into December.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Yeah. Daisy has a question, but I just wanna, I wanna be respectful of our

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: next witness.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Me too. I wanna be respectful. However, it's clear that this committee is finding this topic very compelling. Does Doctor. Powers, do you have time to stay for a little bit longer? Great. Then let's continue. Oh, Daisy has a question.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: Slash comment. It's more of a comment, really. I feel like we've talked about hunting and fishing and harvesting in terms of food supply, but we haven't talked about it in terms of other health benefits. And you're in the health care committee room. So I just think we should take a minute to think about people who do get outdoors and harvest things. Not only are we getting the benefit of the physical activity and exercise, but some of us get into the outdoors for our mental health. It's a place that's very therapeutic. And then also, think there's the benefit of, for some of us, I grew up in a bear hunting family, and passing down those traditions is really meaningful. And sharing food can bring people together, so it's good for community health as well. But it's just fascinating and really thought provoking to have you here.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Well, thank you. When

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: we talk about WMAs, that's another aspect of tie insists. When I think about the legislative tie in to what we can do to be supportive of our structure, when the department invests in additional land acquisitions, that's a food security and a health investment for whatever that profitable community is. And that's definitely something I think all public lands that the agency manages, but particularly the WMAs that are paid for and designed for these consumptive practices. I mean, it's just such an incredible resource for people to have, especially people who don't have their own land abundance.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Quick question. What's your thoughts on Lueders guessing the catamaran?

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: Happy to answer that. I

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: think the Fish and Wildlife Department would be overjoyed if they would arrive on their own. I think putting them on the landscape is going to be a challenge to manage for just for the state itself and for the neighbors. Very excited about the conversation. We're engaged in it all the time and it's been very fun and educational for us to look at the aspects of what this would mean to Vermont, but if they showed up, we would be overjoyed. Putting them here is challenge for us.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: More slides? Oh, I'm sorry, Deb. Yes, go ahead. Back to that slide, you have the average meat yield. So what is the average size?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: These are How

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: about dress? So

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I can give you I can give you an average dressed deer. It's it's 151 pounds sort of on a on a latitudinal scale from here to Ohio across the country for whitetail deer. Okay. As as far as moose go, because it's either sex, it is, it's, people shoot thousand pound bulls and they're allowed to shoot a young of the year calf, you know, rarely do. It would be very hard to capture that. That yield is based on an average of the harvest, but I don't know what that translates to. I've got it in my head, it's 30% of the animal is harvestable. You're thinking skull bones, hide, antlers, and then you get everything else to eat. It's about 30%, but 150 is relating to that. I guess that's there it is. 150 to that is is right on the mark. Good question. Yeah. If your eyes shoot are smaller. Yeah, and I can't say enough about how my my wife reacts to me after I've been in the woods for ten days. She's like, well, really are a nice person. I I know exactly what you mean. I remember. She said, remember how nice I used to be. Yeah. So we'll, you wanna jump to the next one, Abigail? Not sure if you can hear me. This is the pounds of game, through regulated hunting, that's been harvested over the last, I guess it's not been able to capture twenty twenty five accurately yet, but pretty extraordinary. Just in Vermont, you can see those numbers are huge And we'll see about twenty twenty five or twenty twenty six numbers because we will have added 60 to the deer seasons and added implements, will be very exciting.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Good question. I know you've added days where we can shoot a dope during the regular rifle season. It's a lottery still? It is still a lottery. Okay, so I think it's $10 for the Montrose. Is it the same for maybe the increase of out of

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: staters that's gonna be participating in the regular rifle season to hire us a doe. We haven't increased that fee number yet, and I can't give you an answer as to why, but we've certainly had a great fee discussions this year around the second buck tag, which if there are any license holders in the room for 2026, have that buck tag is free this year. We're trying to get legislation through to allow us to charge for that. But our big game plan and our biologists are often studying these demographics and an increase in license fees of any type. Management program first. But it draws the ire of folks, right? But some of them, our camp bees are a great example. They're very low. They don't capture even the food generally for a week for a kid to go to camp. The hunting license, numbers we feel can be can be adjusted from our perspective. It's not in the governor's recommend this year. We weren't able to get those fee increases through. But generally, a $5 for a bear tag is low. Just right on say that's very low for a bear tag. And in some states, if you want to go to New Hampshire, it's $50 if you want shoot a bear. And they're much more valuable to us than $5 We do have a healthy care population, so we'd like the attention, but we could. There's some wiggle room there.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: And they're awake now.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: They are awake. No doubt about it. I'll take your birth theaters down. Do

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: your fees fully support the Department of Fish and Wildlife?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: We're a third funded by license sales. So no. There was a time when we were fully funded, but we get about 30% of our budget is general fund. Thirty 30 is general fund. Correct.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: And 30 is fees and the other 30?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: And the other 30 is federal funds.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Federal, okay.

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: It's worth qualifying that with the fact there's just a tremendous amount of work the department does that is not necessarily directly related to the consumptive practices. So you have bird and rare plant biologists and such and their work, it's not necessarily tied to the license.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Reminds me, one of your earlier slides, we have licenses for all of these fishing, hunting. Do do you need a license to like forage or forage on state lands at all?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: You do not.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: You do not.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: You do not. And no plans to have one. There's a lot baked into that. There are

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: some controls though that exist. Are controls.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Wondering if we have over foraging or

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Not that we've recognized on state lands, but it doesn't mean we don't know what we don't know. It's generally, there are state lands rules that have built in foraging and WMAs do too, in foraging guidelines. But I think it falls into the category of if we saw the need, we would be the first to speak up and we would folks would call us out on that too if they saw it.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: It'll have seasons coming

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: up It may be in Favorites. Southern Part of the state, right? There's a slide on small game, Abigail, if you wanna I'm sensitive to the next guest, and we're super happy to come back. Small game and waterfowl, sort of we consider some of our entry level, hunting and most importantly now, for new Americans who, come from cultures where small game is very important to them. A lot of small game in the Champlain Valley, you know, sort of our Banana belt, but very robust, squirrel hunting culture in a lot of the new American settings and we have lots of squirrels and I'm sure you see them all around us. We do have a very

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: strong waterfowl culture here in Vermont

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: and you can see 46,000 pounds of duck and goose meat is pretty extraordinary.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Not a lot of meat on squirrel.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: No, but it sure is good.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: No gaze or a piece of chicken?

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Make it stew.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Abigail, fishing slide is next.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Thank you.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: So this this is the number that we we mentioned earlier. We raised trout, salmon, walleye, 190,000 pounds and this is generally catchable size when it hits the water. It's not always we do some fry stocking that has to grow our walleye are usually not catchable, but many of the trout and salmon are catchable size when we put them in. Do a great job in Waterbury where we stock a trophy section. Those are excellent eating fish and people they're very accessible all around that state complex or maybe some of you that have spent time And as we as we mentioned earlier, this is these are short fishing opportunities for most most people to be able to access. And our fishing access areas are are growing in this capacity, but 36% are are universally accessible. And you can find those on our website.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Al, did you have a question or do have a question? I'm fine. Okay.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: We'll go to the Venison For Slide. So Venison For Vermonters is a warden led effort where they take a roadkill deer bear moose, and they process it, a little bit on their own time, a little bit on state time, and, all the equipment and packaging is by donation, and they distribute that venison to food shelves. A thousand pounds goes very quickly. And we've been across the hall talking with agriculture about some of their food security and some of the bottlenecks that society experiences with meat cutting. Some of you probably heard of that bottleneck. It's fairly extraordinary when it comes down to picking up a roadkill deer and then now what do I do? And so the wardens have filled that niche in some areas, but have also, helped us identify places, in society meat cutters that can handle this stuff too. Let's go fishing programs are you may have heard are wonderful. We sell out most of them all the time, Wardens and our outreach staff lead those, and our partnership with the Vermont Wild Kitchen and farmers markets and UVM classes are very worthwhile and fun, teach people how to handle the meat that they've harvested.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Maybe you can come out of retirement challenge. Allen needs to butcher.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: I used take care of all the moose meat.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Did you really?

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: All the cargills and wheat market up in Needlesburg and I had a big freezer capacity, and we freeze it for the state, and then they would give certificates, 15 pounds, people come from all over the state.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: My family did that when I was a kid.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Yeah, did.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I'm sure they saw My dad remember being on the list, and we had to pay $2 a pound.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: I don't know what it was, but it was a good program. State recouped some of their money. Most of it was overtime, they called me in the middle of the night. Did that for eight, ten years, we'll see. But it did go to waste, that was the main It

[Brian Cina (Member)]: sounds like you're both talking about something from the past. Is there any present plan or option for people to help with food security and help the community the way that Representative Demar did or your family did?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I would say in the immediate, something they can do this minute is to to call in a roadkill if they if they hit one. That will go to the Venison for Vermonters program or more more locally. As far as opening up a butcher shop, I think representative O'Brien and I have been talking about, being a meat farmer himself, we've been talking about a path forward for here and raising awareness around what meat cutting means to food security in Vermont, because he's identified it as a very strong need and we do too. If we're cutting meat for folks ourselves, we've identified a need too. But some folks will hit a deer and oh no I don't know what to do and they could call and someone would either arrive soon or sooner and salvage that meat or a person could be made aware and pick it up themselves. It's always the state police dispatcher. Police dispatcher.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I'm gonna ask another ignorant question.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: None of them are.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: How long can something be dead for before it's not salvageable?

[Brian Cina (Member)]: I wonder what the doctors think.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: It's temperature based, it's all temperature based and there's no unlimited number. I did pick up a roadkill this winter even though I got three deer I couldn't help myself. I picked up a roadkill this winter in zero degree weather and it was not salvageable because the viscera had gone and spoiled the meat, but it was, I tried and anyway, I put it in the woods and put a camera on it and got some great bobcat pictures. That was really neat. Yeah. But, there and and you'd have to be quick in the summer. 40 degrees plus, you got to be fairly quick. Yeah.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Other parasites and things like that that have to be thought about.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Recommend cooking to a certain degree. I think we recommend 160 degrees, but I don't tend to worry about that personally. Even bear meat, probably should cook a little longer, think. Certainly bear meat is one you want get the 160, but it is an easy Google search to find out what the CDC recommends for parasites, easy Google search. But I always cook deer meat to rare, and I don't quote

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: that. Compressive.

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: Could go wrong?

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: A perfectly good tender one. My husband is a hunter and he went over to New York, my auntie and her sister, so we had a lot of deer in me

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: and I called the food bank

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: to find out if they did not make it. Oh my goodness.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Is it out of state maybe?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Still over there or over here?

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Over here.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Interesting. Yeah. I would love to put you in touch with Ward and Sarah. She's our first slide.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Me too.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: She's the one that distributes this and I know in Lemoyle, I have a close neighbor who runs in New York, Lemoyle County, he claims it's the first protein gone off the shelf. He processes the deer on his own and drops it up in the food shelf because he gets too many.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Yeah, ours is all processed back

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: and forth beautifully.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: We should connect on that. I would hate for that to be the case across the state. Absolutely.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Yeah. And then the last two slides are up just briefly go over them and they allude back to the beginning. All our staff, feel are sort of pointed in the direction of food security, this again goes back to doing our jobs without really realizing it for hundreds of years, and thanks to Charles for pointing this out that we do matter in the food security space. From law enforcement all the way down the list, most of the programs that we have, even say just someone who's out conserving land is heading folks into this responsible direction. And I'll jump to the last slide and pointing out our mission again and how significant the effort is as far as the landscape and public waters. Everything we do is accessible to everyone if they go through the processes And because of our habitat conservation practices, we aim to have this accessible and open and abundant in the future. So happy to take questions, but I do know and I'm happy to come back. Love to come back.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: We have lots and lots

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: of questions. Yeah.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Go ahead. I just wanna appreciate you guys coming in because I think this education. Yeah. You know, with the hunting attitude out there, and when you see figures like this, it might be a little more balancing than the utilization of this. So I appreciate this. Good job. Thank you so much for having us. Was a pleasure.

[Charles Martin, Deputy Secretary, Agency of Natural Resources (ANR)]: There was also, just to put it out there, a standing offer from Jerry Bellen, the PhD I mentioned from MSU, who's done this research his whole career. He's a predator prey relationship expert who focuses on humans and our prey. But this is his whole life's work. So he's happy to

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: come join us if you want more elaboration. Thank you.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: And Jason, I checked your bio while you were testifying. We're working on a big primary care bill, maybe your wife can come in since you mentioned your wife three times.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I've been wanting to volunteer her for a few months.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: It's gonna have the whole house of their family come in.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: She's an internist up at North Country.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Oh, but she doesn't need meat,

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: so maybe.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: No, doesn't need meat, but supports me

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Thank you. You very much. This was fantastic. Thank you very much.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Friday. Wish I had something else that's incredible.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Absolutely, happy to come back

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: I'm and sitting around. Fantastic. We'll see you.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: All right, let's move back to primary care.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner of the Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Thank you for the guests We and your

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: have Doctor. Gordon Powers with us and he is the program director for UVM's family medicine residency program. And welcome. We had in the dean of the medical college yesterday. So I'd to see this continuum because we've been sort of looking at education and just trying to get a read on the landscape of education in medical education in the state, particularly

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: primary care. And I am And then after, if necessary, one has any hope or other health questions. Is that okay? Yes. Okay. Thank you. So good afternoon. Thank you for making this interesting decision for me today. I am born in town. I am a family medicine physician and have worked as a project and care doctor in Milton for life for over a decade. Currently in the process and is based on our cohort of Dispuner Statins. Within my role as program director, I serve as an educator and a mentor I will also health

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: care.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: I enrolled in a lot in particularly Cowen and all of our healthcare sources online and reading. And yet as a licensed health program director, I am really proud that we've been playing full self But a medical system cannot fully connect to a high value care model and for a treatment system without helping us to die for it. By exercising internal medical term life treatment, which provides

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Any questions?

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: I guess, this bill we're talking about with primary care. How does our neighboring states handle lives?

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I actually sort of had kind of an extension on that question. Can I ask? So you spoke about how you think about why residents will leave Vermont, why they will stay. We know that primary care is a challenge everywhere. I think about the things that we put in place within Vermont. We have supported the blueprint for over twenty years, community health teams that sort of provide those wraparound services. Is there someone doing it? What is making other places more attractive?

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: I think there's a lot of factors in that. Know, I think, I think, think,

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: you want the interpreter to interpret by sign?

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Do want to speak? Is that to Well, both of

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: be pleased to hear them speak. So there are a lot of different factors that go into that, including, a very rural state, so that makes it difficult to find a doctor, a primary care doctor. And we have to pay more money to attract people to come. So our guaranteed income down the road is affected in terms of those communities that we're trying to serve. So we're a little different than some of our neighboring states in that way. And I think also insurance companies here, It's difficult because they're leaving us. Everybody is aware of the Medicare changes, I assume this year, September month, and that's been taking a lot of time for folks to try to sort out how we're going to move forward with that. And then, we're a, We're stoned, have low reimbursement rates for Medicare.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: I would say the law enforcement thing is not kind of a problem.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: It's less of a problem in many other states.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: In that same, you were talking about the insurance companies and you had been speaking about sort of the administrative burdens. One of my concerns with one that I shouldn't say concerns, but something that I've been thinking about with 01/1997 is it seems to be about sort of payment methodology and how we reimburse providers. But it doesn't appear as though there's anything that is removing sort of the barriers that providers have to deal with now, the unreimbursed services, it just seems to be just paying them for continuing to do the same unreimbursed stuff, but now they get paid. And shouldn't we be also simultaneously working on removing the administrative tasks and making things easier, maybe investing in technologies that help scribe, AI scribe, the inbox bloat that So if you had thoughts on that.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Yeah, think it all needs to happen at the same time, honestly. And I think that this bill, S197, is a step in the right direction. It doesn't answer all of those concerns. But obviously, yes, there are other things that need to happen as well. And I think if we if we recognize, can work face to face and recognize that there's also

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: And Black Knights don't work, not.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Also recognize the work that's not face to face. So for instance, in the office, on the phone, work on the computer, emailing, contacting people other ways. So there's a whole lot that goes into that. It's not all face to face. And I think that this bill, again, is just one piece of that recognition of the issue. And I think you make a great point. There's a lot more that could be done as well. And we are working on other fronts as well. Certainly my office at EBM and throughout the state, there's a lot of work going into that. So it's not just status quo.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Brian and then Leslie.

[Brian Cina (Member)]: How do you think universal healthcare might impact the growth of population of primary care providers and support their practices?

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: I think it's an exciting opportunity. I think it's hard to tell exactly what that would look like. But when I have spoken with my residents, the people that I'm working with, I think people are very interested in Vermont to the extent that there's an effort to do things in a different way than is being done elsewhere. And so I think that change that we're moving toward of potential universal health care. I think that's kind of an inviting environment for residents. Leslie?

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: I see that you were trained in an academic medical center. And from what I understand about academic medical centers, they're very biased against primary care and family medicine. So I'm just wondering how we, and maybe not just in Vermont, but it's a culture problem, and how do we address that so that we can get more people involved in primary care that the academic medical centers address their bias, let's say.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: That's an excellent question. So my own background is My undergrad education was at Harvard, and I went to medical school at Stanford. And they're both fairly academic, obviously, my advisor recommended that I not enter family medicine. I was suggesting that I should avoid that because it was not particularly research focused and so forth. And I said, thanks, but no thank you. And I did go into family medicine. And that's what brought me here to Vermont because the culture here is different. And I feel like UVM does support family medicine considerably. I agree that getting people into family medicine or just primary care in general, will require a culture shift. And I have concerns about the pipeline for bringing people in. So my piece of that is our center. We start working with people when they're in medical school. And you've probably heard about what happened with the dean yesterday. You may have been aware of some of what was going on there. And so my job is to help bring people into family medicine and then try to keep them here, to recruit and retain both here in the state.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: If I can continue.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Yes. So yes, I was gonna mention the deed's testimony yesterday because I felt like he was very research focused, that that was important. The personal money that comes with research and it helps drive. So how do we, who care about primary care, find a way to push back, let's say, at that, to get the research money that we need in primary care, or to give it that kind of academic credibility, let's say, for people who care about both?

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that's more for the federal government, because how they prioritize items, how funds are dispersed tends to go towards research. But that's more at the federal level. I think things like the AHIC program, the loan repayment program, the AHEC scholarship program, those kinds of funds are really, really essential. And that helps medical students pursue an interest in primary care. I think that's critical.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Brian, did you have a question, or did you?

[Brian Cina (Member)]: I asked earlier.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: You asked, okay. I was stretching, though.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I knew I saw

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: it. Thank

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: you so much for your testimony. It was very, very thought provoking and also inspiring. I'm

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: curious,

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: what keeps you here? Because I feel we are really lucky to have you in Vermont in your role. And I don't want to lose you. You mentioned retention. What can we do to make sure that you stay?

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: People

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: really value, I think people are valued, And that's something my

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: are important for me. Yes.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: My patients really value the work that we do.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: I value my patients. I value my patients. And they're people I work with. And working with them.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: So that's something that keeps me here. And the other doctors who are involved in primary care as well. I could move home to New Hampshire. I'm certainly comfortable there. I would probably earn a better living in New Hampshire. I have family there and so forth. However, I love what I do here. I love the people that I work with. And I really love being able to help train the next generation of doctors. So that's very important to me.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: But I think, yeah, thank you. Yeah, I just wanted to emphasize the importance of primary care and how the state recognizes that. I think that's really critical. That's just critically important.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: You spoke about preventive care. I consider preventive care to be care in the absence of a condition. I realize that in the medical profession, it's oftentimes more sort of the management of chronic disease or not having chronic disease worsen. I'm wondering if you think that our concentration and our sort of push towards primary care being responsible for preventive care has made it so that primary care isn't doesn't have the capacity to, I guess, see their patients when the patients need them the most, which is often when they're sick. Our reliance on concentration and preventive care means that we're not developing those relationships with our patients when they need us the most.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Yeah, I think we need both. I think there needs to be a balance. Yeah, I think in preventive care, it means exactly as you described it. So not just to avoid illness, but caring for people who vulnerable as well. And that means if that someone has diabetes, for instance, that we will try to prevent the progression of the disease, that we will talk about diet, and we will talk about a healthy lifestyle, and also, of course, appropriate medications to control it and have your labs up to date and so forth. If we were to change our focus, the diabetes were to worsen and become more complex, at that point, we can still manage that care most of the time within primary care. And then we also need to have specialists involved when the disease progresses beyond a certain point. But I think when we're talking about preventive care, it means more than just an annual visit. It has to be more than that. And I think for me, a doctor, it means more of it. Thank you. Also, don't know if that answered your question.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Yes. And Leslie.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Thank you. Thank you very much. This is on a different bill, if I may.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Is that okay? Sure.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Answer this and that's totally appropriate. And I don't want to put you on the spot. So we've been asked to look at the patient bill of rights. And I don't know if you do inpatient medicine, but in your testimony, you mentioned working with advanced practice practitioners. I don't know if you've had a chance to work with them in the hospital in an inpatient setting. What's interesting is that we've heard testimony from the Board of Medicine that they don't think that AP, advanced practice providers, should be given the authority to be the clinician of record. And I was just wondering, you may never have thought of this, and that's completely we're just handed a lot of stuff. So we've been handed this, and I'm just wondering I know this is a blink response. You haven't had a chance to think about it. But what might your blink response be about on that topic?

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: I haven't read the bill, so it's hard to give you a conclusive answer. But my just immediate comment would be that I think that physicians, advanced practice providers, have different training. They have different requirements. Advanced practice providers, for example, do not do residencies. They do have an additional three years. I'm sorry, doctors have the additional three years, family medicine and so forth has an additional three years of residency. So for that reason, I think it's a little bit apples and oranges. So I guess I would say it's hard for me to answer that.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: I put you on the spot.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: I mean, I appreciate the question very much.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Yeah, I did put you on the spot.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Any other questions,

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Doctor. Powers?

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: You related to death? No. No. Powers, different plan. Thank you, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you coming in and spending time with us on Good Friday. So for those who need to get going home, you should

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Thank get going you. Thank you

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: all for your time. Much. I appreciate it.

[Dr. Gordon Powers, Program Director, UVM Family Medicine Residency]: Thank you. Thank