Meetings
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[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Hi, welcome everyone. So we have five seventy seven on the floor today for second reading. And it was so long ago that we did five seventy seven that I had forgotten that Ways and Means did an amendment on it. So we're just going to listen to the amendment, hear from our representative from House Ways and Means and Legislative Council to tell us about it, and then we'll strap hold this.
[Jane Cardillo (Legislative Counsel)]: Great. Good afternoon. Jane Cardillo, legislative council. So we are gonna look at the amendment. And so what I thought might be helpful, I have some various ways of doing this, but I prepared a markup version for you so that you could see what you passed with what they what ways and means of recommending in it, and then we can look at things separately if we prefer. But they did not do a strike all. They did instances of amendment. But the first instance of amendment was to strike out section one in its entirety and put it back in with some changes to it. So this is House Healthcare's section one with strikeouts and additions showing what Days and Means is recommending. If you remember, this is the bill creating the Vermont prescription drug discount card program, and they're still establishing it. No changes to the establishment or what the purposes are or what the treasurer can do as far as working with other states. But they did strike the language saying that the treasurer can require reasonable fees to be charged defray program costs and allowing that to be determined by the treasurer based on actual costs. There was more information received across the hall, and it seemed that there would not need to be fees charged to defray program costs. And so that this language would come out, and there was discomfort, I would say, across the hall with the idea of allowing the treasurer to determine the costs because of this section that is not withstood, although it does happen in some other contexts as well. So that language will come out. And instead, this would say, and some of this is foreshadowing the other big change that's coming, monies received by the program from various sources, including monies provided to the state through a cooperative arrangement authorized by this section, which would be part of the arrangement with the ArrayRx. They'll be deposited in the and this is an existing special fund. So instead of creating a new special fund, Ways and Means is proposing to to an existing financial literacy special fund and make it you'll see in the next section, the financial literacy and economic empowerment trust fund. So that all that money would go into the now larger existing trust fund and available to the treasurer's office to defray costs associated with administering the program. So, again, striking references to charging fees and and not creating a special fund, but instead putting money into this existing special fund. And then they didn't make any changes to what this committee did around the co pay accumulator language. And then for the report sorry. Representative Delmario took out the balance in the fund language because there's no fund. So that's why that language would come out, and there's no fees. So that's a kind of conforming change because as you can see here in the next what language you had in section one establishing the Vermont prescription drug discount card program fund, they've struck that whole fund. And then if we go keep going through the bill, sections two and three were your copay accumulator language. They did not touch any of that. So no changes there. The next instance of amendment is to add a new section three a. And this is so I've got new because the whole thing is new to your version. And this amends the existing financial literacy trust fund to add economic empowerment, which is a division in the treasurer's office now that this, I believe, this program would fall under. So it seemed to make sense to include that in this existing fund. So this still has the special fund. Currently, as I said, the Financial Literacy Trust Fund, we're adding economic empowerment. And then I've been making some conforming change and also just updating language. We don't need to both establish and create. That's really the same thing. So we could just establish it. And then the purposes would be under existing law. It's the promotion promoting the adoption of fiscally sound money management practices by Vermonters through education and outreach efforts and create opportunities to build and encourage the development of new financial literacy activities and educational products. And I proposed changing Vermont Citizens, which is now a newbie, a thing, to Vermonters, and then adding in to support other economic empowerment opportunities for for Vermonters, which is where this one comes in. And you'll see there's some more specific language in this subsection. So in in consultation with JFO, the we don't appropriate money from a fund to a fund. We transfer. So the fund may receive state transfers, gifts, grants, federal funds, and any other funds consistent with this section. And monies in the fund may be expended in accordance with the trust fund provisions, and it's an existing section just talking about spending money, for such financial literacy projects as the treasurer may direct and then adding and to defray costs associated with administering the Vermont prescription drug discount program established pursuant to that first section of the bill and just moving this trust fund language up here. And then allowing and keeping some of the same language as an existing law about investing and carrying forward interest in in the earned in the fund remaining in the fund and an accounting of receipts, disbursements, and earnings as part of the annual report from the treasurer. So you'll be able to see what's in the fund and, you know, what's come in and what's gone up. Section four, they the only thing they changed about your implementation report that's due in January is to strike out the reference to recommendations for any fees to be charged to participants. Again, not expecting there to be these charged to participants. And then the appropriations committee, as I understand, voted this out with the $50,000 appropriation in it, And the act would still take effect on July 1. So the big changes, again, just to recap, are taking out the fees and references to fees and not establishing a new special fund, but instead repurposing an existing one to make it broad enough to cover these activities as well.
[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Go ahead, Doctor. Money that is originally appropriated for the prescription drug program, that all gets dumped into this existing fund?
[Jane Cardillo (Legislative Counsel)]: I don't believe so. This is really going to the treasurer's office for the costs of developing it. I don't know that they would literally put it in the fund. That might be a question for the treasurer's office. Don't know that they would literally put it into this fund, but I suppose it's possible they could. I don't know. Can I if I can phone a friend?
[Peter Trombley (Office of the State Treasurer)]: Like, Peter Trombley, was stage manager, and I have to ask our operations and accounting team if
[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: we would have to
[Peter Trombley (Office of the State Treasurer)]: put it into this fund in order to track it separately for these purposes. But whether we put it in the fund or use it in our budget, we would track it separately for the purposes of So it would
[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: be tracked separately. Yes. My question is this, is there any chance of monies that are appropriated for the prescription drug program to be used for the literacy program?
[Jane Cardillo (Legislative Counsel)]: Well, have appropriated to them $50,000 to implement this prescription drug discount card program. So that is what the monies are supposed to be used for. If they're going to be accounting for them, I think that would all be frankable. I don't believe the language contemplates them taking the money and using it not for the purpose you're giving it to them
[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: for. So, okay, I just wanna make sure that that doesn't happen. We used to say not less than, you know, we would find out what the appropriation was and not less than $10 to be used for the prescription drug problem.
[Jane Cardillo (Legislative Counsel)]: I think you could if you were concerned about it. Think you might want to hear from the treasurer's office about how they account for funds and what their plans are for the $50,000 appropriation. My understanding was they were asking for $50,000 because they plan to spend $50,000 on implementing the program.
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Do you want to come up and then maybe Peter can come up after, or do you not want to come up?
[Jane Cardillo (Legislative Counsel)]: No, I love to come up.
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Just I mean, I have questions. I'm kind of along Topper's line thinking, and I'm wondering if you would best be because we don't live in ways and means or appropriations.
[Caroline (House Ways and Means representative)]: Well, you know what? That's why we have such more fun lives. Maybe twenty two years, twenty four years in ways and means is fun. Anyway, Peter has reminded me that there's no way that money can be confused with other money. They have systems to track money inside the accounts that they're deposited. So this is gonna be this 50,000 that's being appropriated, and as Jen told you, it does say appropriated in the fiscal note, but it shouldn't. It should say transferred because we don't appropriate money into this fund. It's earned through the costs of the drugs that people buy with their card, the reduced cost they pay. And sometimes there are gifts to different funds that can be deposited in there. And it says that in the amendment that we've created, that the fund can accept gifts and wherever the money coming from other places,
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: but no
[Caroline (House Ways and Means representative)]: appropriations except for this initial 50,000. My understanding in the beginning was that this 50,000 was going to largely be used for marketing. I think that's correct. We can have Peter address that when he's in the chair. But anyway, this is really a fairly simple amendment. It sounds like it's awfully complicated, but it isn't. We're we're adapting an existing fund so that we're not creating a new fund. We're just changing the name and and making it so that this fund can accept money from this card, a credit card, which many other states use. We tried to count them, I think it's something like 10 or 15 other states use it. And in fact, Vermont uses it. I have a pharmacy in my district that can accept this card, but from visiting out of staters. They can't accept it from any Vermonters because we don't participate.
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: So this will allow people in my district to make use of these reduced priced drugs and your districts too. And so they can save a little money and hopefully reduce the price of healthcare a little bit for our people. I think my only question, because I don't understand how money sort of transfers around, But, and I understand the need for not creating a new special funds. I know that we hate creating special funds. We've got over 400. So not the initial 50,000 appropriation that I completely understand. But as time goes on and there are the sort of the transaction fees that are added and those, as I understand it, the excess of those is sort of divided up amongst the states based on user uptick or population. And we would receive a portion of that so that we would be able to continue to administer array Rx. How does that money, if it's going into an existing special fund, is that how what's to stop them from using that money for completely different purposes that are able to be used out of the special funds?
[Caroline (House Ways and Means representative)]: I think what's Vermont, what's a Vermont portion of that charge from a pharmaceutical purchased in the state of Vermont with this card goes to the Vermont treasurer. I don't think it goes out to ARX. Or No. Peter, I
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: don't know What's the what's the talk maximum with JFO. Okay. I'm just wondering what's the stuff treasurer from using it for other purposes that this special fund is able to be used for.
[Caroline (House Ways and Means representative)]: This, integrity. I mean, I'm assuming it will all be
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: in the report.
[Caroline (House Ways and Means representative)]: Do you have a better answer for that? Well,
[Jane Cardillo (Legislative Counsel)]: I'm working on asking them to come. I mean, I think the short answer is there, I believe there are different accounts within the special fund that they would be tracking separately.
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Chad, that was all I needed to know.
[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: If the fund earns money, if it's invested and it earns money, the money that's earned goes into if it's earned by the money that we transfer, is that money gonna stay any extra money that
[Jane Cardillo (Legislative Counsel)]: I That
[Caroline (House Ways and Means representative)]: money my understanding is the money that the fund earns is used for marketing because there's an ongoing to advertise
[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: this. That's the main
[Peter Trombley (Office of the State Treasurer)]: thing. Yep.
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I have this image that in the treasurer's office, there's this, like, massive cabinet filled with checkbooks.
[Jane Cardillo (Legislative Counsel)]: Know. This is your whole saying yes.
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Thank you, Caroline. Were there any more questions for Caroline? Peter, just wanted to come up and lay our fears about that you've got a handle on all your checkbooks.
[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: This one you pick up with your left hand. Is
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: there a big cabinet?
[Peter Trombley (Office of the State Treasurer)]: So, hi, Peter Trombley, officer of the state treasurer. So, to answer your questions, yes, we will be able to collect revenues from the program that are left over from what is needed to fund it. The way this will work is that when you pay your fee as part of the price of the drug, that's gonna get collected by the Ararex Consortium. The Ararex Steering Committee, of which Vermont will be a member, will set the budget, decide how much of that fee revenue will be used to pay the budget. The remainder is returned to the states, and that is what would be deposited in the account in this special fund. I emailed some folks in our office who do the accounting to ask for some further, you know, color and detail about how we what our accounting practices look like. But what I can say is that it is not uncommon for our office to manage separate monies in the same accounts or funds. A great example is the trust investment account, which is the trust investment account that we hold that variety of state entities can put funds into and receive trust payments out of. So the higher education trust fund as well as efficient wildlife trust funds are, you know, functionally pooled to access better investment vehicles but then paid out separately. So our accounting team does currently operate scenarios very much similar to these where we're tracking funds separately despite them being in the same fund.
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: And they don't get used for other reasons? Like, Michigan Wildlife doesn't go to the education?
[Peter Trombley (Office of the State Treasurer)]: No. These bonds are not commingled.
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Okay. We just commingle them so we can earn better interest rates, I'm assuming. Go ahead,
[Caroline (House Ways and Means representative)]: Hi. Thanks for coming. So did you just say the transaction fees, revenue from the transaction fees will go back into the account of ArrayRx and are shared
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: amongst the states. Not state.
[Peter Trombley (Office of the State Treasurer)]: Yes. Amongst the states. So similarly, as we will be tracking separate monies in the trust fund here, a rarex steering committee tracks the separate monies that are coming from each individual state, so they know the proportion of revenues from Vermont versus Oregon versus Washington. And then when the rarex sets its budget, it commits a certain amount of that revenue to pay its budget over the next year and returns all the rest again proportionally. So Vermont users made up 10% of the users and 10% of the fee revenue. We get 10% of the leftover back to us. And that accounting process is all overseen by the steering committee, of which we would be a member. I might take the opportunity while I'm up here to just simply say that the treasurer's office is supportive of this amendment. The fee language as amended, we think it more accurately reflects our intent. And and we, of course, were never planning and do not want to charge separate fees beyond what is already paid. And so I appreciate about the clarification of language to make that a reality in statute.
[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Thank you. Anyone,
[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: do you have any questions? Does anyone have questions for JFO? We think that the treasurer's office just gave us a good aid. Alright, so let's take a straw poll. So again, a yes vote indicates that you support the amendment from our committee on House Ways and Means to amend our bill. A no vote means you do not support what they have done. Okay, so remember, it's not on the bill. It's on whether or not they can amend the bill. So, all those in favor of the House Ways and Means Amendment, please indicate by raising your hand. 12345678. 9. And assuming since the other two are not here that they're not going to raise their hands because they're not here. So 902. Alright. Brian's on. He's he's Yeah. Okay. 902. We can go off of live. Thanks, everybody.