Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Morning, everyone. It is March 24, and this is House Healthcare. We're meeting before the floor today to hear an amendment introduced by Representative North. Katie, if you want to just sort of walk us through the amendment and tell us what it does. Happy to. And this is on 08/17. Katie McLean, Office

[Katie McLean (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: of Legislative Counsel. Would you like it pulled up on the screen or do you have it? Okay. My computer is not operating quickly this morning, so just give me one more minute, please.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Would it be possible to post the amendments on our committee page when you get a chance? Doesn't need to be now.

[Katie McLean (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So we're looking at 08/17 to refresh your memory. We have sort of two programmatic pieces in that bill. The first is the mental health literacy piece for employees and teachers at schools. The second piece is the peer to peer program. Within the language about the peer to peer program, there's a list of components about what the peer to peer program entails. So this removes the existing subdivision C that's on this list and puts it back in with new language. So currently, it says, Emphasizes school and community based resources and how to access professional resources when additional support is needed. And the amendment adds that phrase, parental consent to participate in programming. So emphasizes school and community based resources, parental consent to participate in programming, and how to access professional services when additional support is needed.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: So it doesn't get rid of any of our language, it just adds in that one little And this is specifically just around the peer to peer. Okay. All right. Representative North, did you want to come on up? Thanks, Katie. Thanks for coming in, and Go ahead and tell us about you, what's your reasoning?

[Senator Rob North]: Senator Rob North from Ferrisburg, becoming a regular fixture, I feel like, in this committee, I might want to get one of these little name tags even, David.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Hey, if you're going be here, we're going to call you Rob.

[Senator Rob North]: Okay. Perfect. Perfect. All good. Yeah. So as as the conversation that Daisy and I, we're going by first names, had on the floor, like the bill, like the idea of peer to peer conversations. Just would really like to see some parental involvement, some parental engagement in most of us in the room, I imagine, probably all of us have raised children. We understand the intimate relationship within a family, parents and child. As you know, how many of us have not ever had friction with our children now and then? But that doesn't mean we don't want to be involved with their lives. Usually, it's because we're trying to guide them in a certain way and there's a little resistance there. And so, I can fully understand and appreciate when our children have good friends or other mentors that they can go to. But that doesn't mean that we as parents don't want to know what's going on in those extra family, beyond the family conversations that are going on. And just being aware of what's going on. And if there's something being set up within the schools as what we're talking about here to programmatically set up a way for kids to be involved in these I'll call them, conversation peer to peer conversations, then parents should have the ability to consent to that. Yeah, I would like my child to participate in that. And so, I thought that this might be the easiest way. It's not on the screen anymore. To to insert that kind of a a requirement, in in in the legislation in the bill. After our conversation on the floor, Daisy was was kind enough to come back with an alternate set of wording, which I know has not been seen yet, which gets at the same kind of thing and maybe puts it in a place where you all would feel more comfortable with it. I'm not introducing that. Oh, you're not. Okay. Okay. Alright. So is that on the table for discussion then this morning? No, it is not. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, I guess then the wording that you saw here today is really what we're referring to. So it's just a simple offering of a requirement for parents to have consent for their children to participate in these types of programs. And I think the little phrase that you saw is, a very simple way to accomplish that.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Someone doesn't have a parent.

[Senator Rob North]: Yeah. Guardian, obviously, would would, would suffice there.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: It will that language, I don't think would cover that.

[Senator Rob North]: Okay. I mean, I'd be happy to amend that with parentguardian if that's necessary.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: Can you talk to us a bit about when the parent or guardian is the person that the youth needs to talk to someone about? If they're being sexually abused, physically abused, or if their parent is in a domestic violence situation, this is often how those situations first come to light. So, when a youth has to give or get active parental consent to participate in a situation like this, what happens is they don't participate because they know that their parent guardian, who is the problem, is going to then suspect them of disclosing something that they prefer the youth not.

[Senator Rob North]: Sure. Sure. Yeah. No. And in fact, I asked that exact question on the floor when we were having our conversation on the floor. And I believe your response said, well, not only are there existing other laws in place that require mandatory reporting on the part of most of the people in the school, the adults and overseers in the school, that would apply directly to this situation. That's

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: backwards, though, because I'm saying that parental consent has to happen for the youth to even participate. The mandated reporting happens when it is disclosed. But if a kid can't even get in the door to disclose that they're in an abusive setting, it's not going to happen. Do you see what I mean?

[Senator Rob North]: It's No. I I understand.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: In the party for the horse.

[Senator Rob North]: No. I I I understand exactly what you're What we're proposing in H17, eight seventeen is just an additional mechanism, a peer to peer mechanism. I mean, are plenty of other mechanisms already in the school, guidance counselors, teachers, etcetera, to identify and notice behaviors for exactly that kind of a thing. Don't know that we should really be subverting parental involvement in their children's safety and care and health and well-being across the board just to accommodate that one that one slice of of put of, you know, source of the, nonwell-being.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: Well, we did know just from statistics cited in the floor report that you've actually it's a very slim majority in the low 20% actually said that they would go talk to a parent about these things that in peer to peer programs, they are talking to their peers about. So that's the whole benefit of this, is to open a door and to get upstream. But when we include parental consent, it closes that door. And we have data and tons of studies back to the 90s since these programs have really been implemented in schools that show that this shuts participation down to about 25% of what it would otherwise be.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Leslie. I think the thing that concerns me the most is that the assumption that everyone has a supportive parental relationship, And we know that that's not true as much as we wish that it was. And that the very youth that we are trying to offer a supportive environment to are the very ones that the door would be shut for. I mean, I'm gathering and I'm guessing, although actually, no, I shouldn't say that because our kids are struggling. We've heard that and it doesn't matter where you come from and it doesn't matter your socioeconomic background. It doesn't matter how supportive your parents are. Our kids are struggling. So I don't want to say, but it seems as though the ones with the most supportive parents that would be inclined to consent readily with enthusiasm would be the kids who least need this. And I don't think that's what we're trying to do here. Also sitting here and I know why this committee did this bill. Because I remember the room filled with kids who had come in here on advocacy day and asked us to do this bill. And the kids have been giving testimony and the kids have been writing into us. They're the ones who have told us, this is what we want and this is why we need this. And I'm just thinking that To add this one line in here, frankly makes it so that we're not listening to the very kids that we were listening to, which is the reason we are doing this bill. Yeah, go ahead, Allen.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Well, Daisy, when you come up with this bill, remember I talked with you and I said I can't vote for your bill because of parent consent. And I got thinking about what you said and I changed and I went with the vote. But then all of a sudden I am thinking, you know, we are taking the parents right out of the whole mechanism of our children. Parents should know, I want to know about what's going on with my children. Whether it's peer to peer support or some type of other counseling or maybe going to some type of groups that maybe me and my child should have a talk with. I want to know that. And I do agree we're going to lose some. But there should be mechanisms in our school system, a flag of some sort to recognize that. And there's other avenues that you can pursue for that. So, think I'd want to know as a parent.

[Francis McFaun (Vice Chair)]: I support this amendment. We have those mechanisms.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: Mandatory reporters. And then also, I would just flag that it's not counseling that's provided here. What it is, is providing space for kids to talk to each other. And those conversations between kids should be private. They shouldn't need a parent's They have those anyway. Children talk. Do we need them to ask us permission to? Because that's what this amendment is saying. And I would just add that in the mental health space, it is a best practice and standard practice that if you're doing any training that includes mental health content, you provide notification. In fact, we received a letter of testimony last night that's posted on our website that says that. And I was going to present an amendment that added that notification and then just said peer to peer should be confidential because that's the whole purpose.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Okay, I can agree with that. The other thing is too, like I said, we all have had children here. I I want think to know what's going on in my child's life. If my child is having issues and he's going or she's going to fear to peer counselling, as a parent, I would like to know, maybe I'm doing something wrong. Maybe if we know this, we might have a better communication between our child and us.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: Not counselling. Remember, this connects kids to counselling. So this is an up street bill. I know it's difficult because this is upstream and we're used to regulating things like counseling This tells kids where to go if they need help. It does not give them any counseling.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I've got Val and then Leslie.

[Unidentified member referred to as 'Val']: So I might regret this, but I'm going to say it for every kid,

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: teen,

[Unidentified member referred to as 'Val']: human that needs somebody to talk to. You know, I'm a mom talking to everybody here. And I absolutely want to know what's going on in my girls' lives. I've already learned I am not specifically the one that they want to talk to all the time. I could have used somebody to talk to in high school. I definitely did not, would not have wanted my parents to be a part of it When they were a part of the challenging parts of my life, it was awful. They didn't understand, they didn't know how to react, they weren't private. And that is why I fully support this without parents consent. Because if it saves one kid's life and maybe upsets a parent in the process, but it saves a child's life, I'm putting my name on this bill as it was written.

[Leslie Goldman (Member)]: Leslie. Thank you, Belle. I want to echo, I'm coming from a similar place. I'm a parent as well. Penny, you were saying we're all parents, but I think we do come at it maybe from philosophically different places. I would feel grateful that my children had a place to go when they needed to when things were not going well. And things sometimes don't go well at home. And they need to know that they have privacy and that there are safe spaces that they can go. Hopefully, in my family, it wasn't that dramatic that there's reporting, but you never know. And that's the point. Much goes on in the home that we don't know about. And these children and our children need a place to go where they feel safe and protected. And I think the spill does that. And I think it's important.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I also want to remind everybody that the peer to peer mental health support is available if there is ever grant funding for a school, an after school program, or a youth mentoring agency. So it's not as though it is some clandestine place that your child is going off to that you're unaware of. Mean, there is consent, obviously, for your child to attend a school, an after school program, a youth mentoring agency. I mean, I just keep thinking, do you need parental consent to join the French club or the chess club?

[Francis McFaun (Vice Chair)]: Or to see a guidance counselor. And

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I want to remind you, there are mandatory reporters. If someone is struggling, that is the point of the supportive adults in this role. That adult will be connecting that person to services and that's where the parental consent piece comes in. I mean, to me, this amendment basically says that without parental consent, you can't talk to your friend in the hallway, even though this is obviously a more structured programming, but are we creating parental consent for our children to interact in society as autonomous human beings, which they are, who have agency.

[Unidentified member referred to as 'Val']: I also think being in the room and hearing from the creators of this program, their experience, is really moving. And they presented it at a level of understanding and love and compassion in a way that, I mean, that's what it's built on. It's like this solid foundation of love and compassion and wanting to save lives. Coming from a place of knowing how they felt, what they went through, how they survived, and all they want to do is prevent tragic from happening in a child's lives. And I know it can be scary as a parent because what are they gonna say? But we have to trust good people in our lives. That's how I feel. And when I sat in that room, I was moved. I wanted to almost be a part of it. I do wanna be a part of it and this is how I feel I can be a part of it.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: I think Brian has his hand up and then we're gonna take Brian's had his hand up for a while. In another couple of minutes, please.

[Francis McFaun (Vice Chair)]: Nancy will reply from Betsy Ann about straw polls. Oh, thank you.

[Senator Rob North]: Okay, go ahead. I

[Brian Cina (Member)]: appreciate all the points that have been made so far. I just wanted to highlight again that this amendment would put a higher barrier for youth to receive peer support than exists for outpatient therapy. Because Vermont state law allows youth of any age to consent without their parents to outpatient mental health. And the reason we made that the law, that was in my first two years, was precisely for the reason that Val was just saying, which

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: is

[Brian Cina (Member)]: tragedies happened when parents said no to kids when they wanted help. Because the because the the parents thought the kids could just pray and get better or that the kids just needed to suck it up or that the kids would tell family secrets and things shouldn't be shared, and that led to suicides. And drives addiction rates and other mental health issues for kids. And so we decided as a state to lower the barrier for outpatient mental health so that kids could get that help when needed if the parents objected. It doesn't mean that the mental health providers leave parents out by any means. We still parents often consent even though they don't have to consent to the treatment. So it would be concerning to me to have that be the policy, but then to make peer support have a higher barrier. It just doesn't make sense. So unless we really rethink consent across the entire continuum of care, I don't think we should do this. And I actually don't think we should open that conversation up again because we've had it already. And this isn't really a good time in history to be reducing access to care for people. Thank you.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Thank you, Brian.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: I think Brian's referring to Title 18, Section eight thousand three

[Francis McFaun (Vice Chair)]: and fifty, if anybody wants to refer to that. Did

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: you have a comment or question, Wendy? I didn't. Oh, I Oh, I

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: do have just Leslie was all good as you bet.

[Wendy Critchlow (Member)]: And I get where you're coming from. I have kids too. But I am going to trust the people who are boots on the ground with this issue. And they have said that parental support is an unnecessary part of this whole thing. Honestly, like you said, I would be more worried about my kids talking to other kids in the hallway than I would in a structured place where they have full autonomy. That's, I'm just, Daisy's walked the walk, Brian's walked the walk, we've heard from a lot of people, I'm with you, those people that came in, they worked it, and they have a little bit more of a grasp on what this is all about, and I don't think it's, if I found out that my own kid was doing one of these, was asked about it. I'm a good parent, I think, sort of.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: But there's so

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: much things that go on in our kids' lives

[Wendy Critchlow (Member)]: that we have no idea what's going on. This is not a scary thing to me. That's all I have to say.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Okay, I'm going to take a straw poll on this, Brian, because you've listened to testimony on it and been part of the discussion, you're able to vote on this as well. We'll leave Lori out since she hasn't been here. So all those okay. Remember, a yes vote.

[Senator Rob North]: Yes, yes. What's that? Am I dismissed or am I

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: You are. The vote. Yes. Unless you wanna hear

[Wendy Critchlow (Member)]: the vote.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: You're welcome to sit there. A yes vote is that you find the amendment favorable and you agree that we should include this language in our bill, a no vote means that you find it unfavorable and that we should not include the amendment in the bill.

[Allen "Penny" Demar (Member)]: Can I go to question first? Yes. When you talk about parents' consent, it's like one time consent, right? At the beginning of this school year, they consent to this, yes or no, once. They don't have to do it every time.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: It's not specified.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: It's not of the amendment. Yes, and I'm taking the vote. You guys, we are on the floor and we are first up on the floor for this, so we actually have to be there on time. Go ahead, Debra. Could we change consent to notification? You would have to put in an amendment for that. This is the amendment that's before us. We don't change this amendment. This is representative North's amendment. So, we have no ability to change the amendment, his amendment. Okay, so all those who find this amendment favorable and wish that we amend the bill by this, please raise your hand. All those opposed? One, five, six, seven, eight. So eight to one, the committee unfavorable.

[Daisy Berbeco (Ranking Member)]: Can I say thanks to Representative North? We had a really wonderful discussion about this, and it was a pleasure to work with him on it.

[Senator Rob North]: Yeah, yeah. Sorry, we've come to agreement on something.

[Alyssa Black (Chair)]: Thank you, everybody. We can go off a