Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Here. Okay.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Are back again in Customs and Operations for Military Affairs, changing gears to hear from a witness that's very important to us, our chair, representative Matt Birong, to introduce the amendment to the charter of the town of Panta. Welcome, mister chair.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Thank you, madam vice chair. Yes. So aside from my role as the chair of house government operations military affairs, I'm sitting before you today as the lead sponsor and primary shepherd of this charter amendment proposal. And we do have the Tanton Town Manager here, so I don't want to go too deep into this as this is something he's spent far more time crafting. But what you see is this charter is basically laying out protocols, function, and guidance to a recall of town officers. There are a couple of instances historically which led to the desire of the municipality to have this in their town charter. Again, I would defer to mister Rowe when he buys testimony for greater detail on that. And it is, you know, three pages with really the brunt of the meat being on page two, sort of just lays out this practice should the committee choose to adopt.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. And can you tell me when this vote was held?

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: This vote was last year, the town meeting day. No, no, no. Yep. So I believe all that information is in the charter packet or SharePoint. Perfect.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: We will look that up in the vote count as well. 05/15/2025.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: But we don't have

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: the vote. I'm sorry. March, May?

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: 05/15/2025,

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: but don't have the vote yet.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Okay. I I have the

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Great. We'll ask you when when we

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: call hands.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Call you up. So barring any questions for our witness? No? Okay. Well, weekends. Chance. Can you tell us if you're an internationalist at the top?

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: We're connected by about, what, like a mile and three quarter a border

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: from Bridgeport. That'd 22 a day? Yep. All right. We have good geography together. It's always good to get a geography lesson.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: A lot of coastlines.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Coastline, I like that.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: There's a lot of estuary as well. You got a land mass, not a lot of population. Is

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: that where the wildlife refuge is? Yes, that's beautiful.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: That creek, which is a famous name for a wildlife. Yes, is. Bustling activity.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Now is Mesa Harbor Canton or is that? No. Beresburg. Beresburg. Okay, now that we've

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: got a virgin's

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: geography lesson, shall we have our council come up next?

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Have I been relieved?

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: You have. Thank you. Counsel, would you like to join us, please, and explain what we're looking at here on H 953?

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: Good afternoon, table. It seems be yours. My name is Tim Devlin, Legislative Counsel. And for you, you have a bill as introduced, specifically H954. And this is, let's see, a proposed to the Charter of the Town of Penn. This bill proposes a proven amendment to the Charter of Penn to adopt procedures for the recall of elected town officials. So, first, we start off with section one, which is kind of our boilerplates, amendment, charter amendment prelude language. The general assembly approves the amendment to the charter of the town of Penn, set forth in this act. Voters of the town approve the proposals of amendment on May 15. Section two is indeed where we have the need of the bill, and this is where we have, let's see, specific statutory reference to charter, the town of Panthers charter, is in '24, title 20 four's appendix chapter one twenty nine f. And we omit the only four existing statutory sections in this charter that we the purpose of this bill will add a new section five retitled recall of elected officers. So and I think it's just easiest just to read it verbatim really, and I can stop with that. Great questions as we go through.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Excuse me, Tim. Yes. Before you continue, I have a question. Rep. Pinsonault has a question. My question is currently in statute, there is no pathway to recall an elected town official?

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: Not generally in total 24. Other towns do have them. I think there's about 20 other municipalities and then seven wastewater and, waste or water districts that have

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And are those specifically called out in their charters as to So how they there's no statewide overarching way of recalling elected?

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: Correct. No generalized power from municipality.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Do you interrupt, Pinsonault? So just to make sure I'm understanding correctly, chapter 129 F, through four are staying. Yes. We're adding five. Correct. Okay. Thank you. Alright. Okay. You can continue.

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: Section five, recall of elected town officers. A, any elected town officer may be removed from office subject to the following conditions and procedures. One, a written petition signed by not less than 15% of the registered voters of the town seeking the removal of a town officer and requesting a vote of the town officer at a regular or special town meeting called for for the purpose. Shall be filed with the select board and the town clerk. Two, if the petition is filled out not more than sixty days and not less than forty seven days before the next regular town meeting, the select board shall place the question of whether the elected officer shall be removed on the warning for the next regular town meeting. Otherwise, the select board shall call a special town meeting to be held within forty five days after receiving the petition to vote on whether the elected official should be removed. In either case, the recall vote shall be held by Australian ballot. Three, when the petitioned removal is approved by a majority of the voters cast at the sorry, majority of the votes cast at the regular or special town meeting, the town officer named in the petition shall cease to hold office. Or the office shall be removed only the officer shall be removed only if at least as many registered town voters of the town vote to approve the petition as voted to elect said officer in the most recent election wherein the officer was elected, or at least one third of the registered voters of the town vote, whichever is fewer.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Let me

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: move on to b. A vacancy resulting from recall of an officer shall be filled in the manner prescribed by law. And c, a recall petition shall not be brought against an individual more than once within any twelve month period. We'll move on to section three of the bill, the effective date. This act shall take effective law passage.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Could you go back to number four on page two?

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: So we have thresholds that need to be met. And so we have two options, the fewer quenched. So either one third of the, registered voters or the same number, as voted the officer in in the most recent election, whichever is fewer.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Robert Hinsonault, how many registered voters does Panton have approximately?

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Do you know We'll we'll

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: wait till the vote is

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: just to take it. Yeah.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Any other questions for council? And this looks like it's as soon as the vote is counted and published, the individual will cease to be employed in that position?

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, that assumes the regular canvassing procedure. And then once formally declared, the elected official is removed from office. That's a better way to think of it rather than employed.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: See if I have any other questions for you. Anybody else around the table? And, another important point is there can't be a recall position more than once in a twelve month period. Yes. And one last thing that I flagged for myself earlier was that, I said sorry. Sorry. I'm not seeing what I had flagged in my head. Oh, town meeting. Town meeting, meaning, like, any special meeting or a select board meeting. What is a town meeting?

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: Town meeting, because of its capitalization, is the town meeting day.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Okay, it is the town meeting day.

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes, and there's nothing in their charter that designates that to be other than the statewide town meeting date.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Okay, so then my question is line 11 on page two. Otherwise, the select board shall call a special town meets. So, if, for instance, the individual gets elected on actual town meeting, March 3 or whatever it is, and then two weeks later, a petition appears, The Select Board could call a special meeting soon within forty five days of receiving the petition. It not have to wait until the town meeting the following year. Okay. All right. Good. Thank you very much. I think that's it. Unless anybody has any more questions for Tim. Thank you, Tim. And we'll call up Kyle Rao.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Thank you very much members of the committee and representatives. Just a clarification, I'm the town clerk and treasurer. Although, as I'm sure you all know, town clerks and treasurers in small towns often are de facto administrators. Didn't prepare any written statements. I'm happy to discuss the petition, the history behind this particular thing if you'd like, or I could go straight to questions, however you'd like to proceed.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Why don't we start with a question that was already asked, the number of registered voters in town and what was if you had it?

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Yes. So perhaps it would be helpful if I go a little bit into the history of what happened with it because it's connected in some ways to that. So, Penn has 597 registered voters. In 2024, Penn experienced a bit of political upheaval due to a reappraisal, due to the potential installation of a huge solar field, a variety of things. This led to some discontent amongst some folks in town, particularly aimed at the select board. In 2020 the '24, December 9, I took over as town clerk and treasurer, and in January was handed a petition by a resident of town to amend the town charter to allow for the recall of elected officials. Now, unfortunately, that petition was not, didn't comply with state statute about the way that it has to be warned. It's an additive process, not a singular process. In fact, in one of your previous bills here in your committee, you took up the fixing of that, and I would advocate that you take that up again at some point in the future. But regardless, she delivered it after the deadline. So what happened was the select board decided to review the issue, and discuss the issue amongst themselves and then offer to include it, as on on the ballot, at a special town meeting with the provision in item number four of the bill included. That was the select board's edition. The original charter proposed by the resident in the town contained no such provision, meaning that a recall petition could just happen, and you could be recalled by any number of people who decided to show up at a regular or special town meeting. The reason this has relevance, as I'll tell you, is so at that at the town meeting, I should add, they also the the residents of town expanded the select board from three to five in the same kind of time frame. And at the town meeting regular town meeting held in 2025 to, expand the select board, which was one of the questions, a 170 voters voted. It was about a 28% turnout of the registered voters in the town. The select board then held a special town meeting to not only, at this point, to vote on the charter question, but also to elect the two new representatives. That's being the process. And at that town meet at that special town meeting held later in the summer, several months after March's usual normal Vermont town meeting, a 103 voters in the town voted, a 17% turnout. So, obviously, the select board had been somewhat con somewhat correct in their concerns that a special town meeting or other town meeting could potentially attract fewer registered voters, which means that a person could be recalled with far fewer votes than actually elected them. And so, ideally, putting this provision in, saying this has there has to be cause and cause enough for the townspeople to come out and participate in this process. Already a 15%, signatures of registered voter petition is a high threshold. And then add on to that, more voters or at least a third of registered voters in town participating to allow for

[Tim Devlin (Legislative Counsel)]: the recall of the elected official.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: The charter question passed 56 votes to 39. So approximately 54% to 37 with 7% of people or eight voters not voting. Okay.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Pinsonault, when you said that you did that, later in the summer, did you do it at the August primary?

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: No. There was no August primary in 2025.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Oh, I think 2024. So it was done at that May meeting.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Done at the May special town meeting. Yes. I was

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: thinking 2024 when you were talking about the dates.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Yeah. I know. I'm sorry. Yeah. It was a it was a whirlwind experience to for a new town clerk to get all this on my desk within the first four months of me being on the job. So it was a real education. I should add that this bill language was taken directly from, Underhill, the town of Underhill, which has a charter, amendment similar to this to allow for the recall people without, however, section four. Section four was added by the select board and myself. And it was reviewed by VLCT and by the town's attorney at the time.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: So 50%, you're talking fifty, sixty, 90 voters. Roughly 90 voters. Yeah. Any additional questions for the town clerk? Well, was pretty short and sweet. Thanks for coming all the way here.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: I've actually never been to the State House before.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Oh, well, your representative should

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: take a liberty to show.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: I appreciate it. And I I just as a side here, but connected to the charter issue, I I would ask the your committee to take that issue up again of the additive process by which a charter amendment has to come before, because it basically, it's very confusing to residents who aren't schooled in, like, legalese and the the language. And so what it was was her petition had to be withdrawn and was, in fact, moved because she had didn't submit it within the proper statutory time frame.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And is that spelled out somewhere in, I mean, assume it's spelled out in statute, but is it somewhere like in on your website or?

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: It is now.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: I actually held a special meeting with the petitioners. I called every single one of those people who originally signed the petition and explained to them the situation. I went back and forth with Garrett Baxter from VL Coffin IV and had this much text as he explained it to me because it's, as I said, an additive process. So it's forty seven days plus forty seven days because of the way that it has to filter out. It could use some simplification.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And I would encourage you to work with VLCT to come to us in the fall for that, or even this spring if they have time and want to take it up, if they see that it's an issue in other towns, and they certainly can suggest it to us.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Great, thank you.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Thank you for being here.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Absolutely. Thank you for for

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Hi, everyone. Oh, yeah. Sure. So this petition, was it to get rid of you?

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: No. I'm an appointed town clerk and treasurer in the town. There was

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: You just got elected, and she brought in a petition.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: No. I well, there's no love lost anyways. But, but I am in an appointed position. All of my tongues are. The the the aim was at the select board. Select board. Yes. And particularly, probably one person on the select board. It's a very targeted not to say that it doesn't have merit, the select board decided as a at for the let the voters decide. They have absolute but with the inclusion to make sure that it wasn't just this process by which a person would be recalled by whoever showed up on a sunny or a on a on a rainy or snowy day someday when a special time meeting was gone.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Thank you again.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Enjoy our beautiful state house.

[Kyle Rao (Town Clerk/Treasurer, Town of Panton)]: Absolutely. I know it works.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And with that, I think we are done with our business for today. So