Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Alright, folks. We're going live. We're live. We're live. Boxes. We're Boxes.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Right?

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: What's

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: up? Yeah. I can give you one moment to post a shake. Nice message to you. Bye. We got other bad stuff. Alright. We are live from It's about cat like reflexes. Okay. Thank you for that patience, your patience while I was sending that text message. Alright. Welcome back, everyone. We are here with witness testimony on h six nine three, an act relating to the approval of amendments to the charter of the town of Bennington concerning the town police department. We have with us, Paul Vufetz, chief of police, town of Bennington. How are doing, sir?

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: Good. Good afternoon, everyone.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Afternoon. So, yeah, we, we did a little bit of testimony last week, I believe, on this, charter proposal, and we since it referenced coordination with law enforcement in your community, we just wanted to invite you in and give you the opportunity to speak to the proposal.

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: Very good. Thank you.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So, yeah, feel free. The table is yours, sir.

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: Thank you very much. So if you've taken testimony on this, you know that the town of Bennington established a community policing advisory review board back in April 2022 when the Bennington Select Board adopted a resolution to create a community policing advisory review board. It is supposed to consist of seven members from the community and with one member from the Bennington Select Board acting as a liaison between the between the Community Policing Advisory Review Board and the Select board. I won't get into all of the details. I'm sure you know most of them by now. And, we struggled at the beginning. I'm going to be straight up with you. We did struggle at the beginning with this with this community policing advisory review board. We were very excited to get it underway. We wanted to move away from having complaints reviewed by the Bennington Select Board or the town manager as the civilian review process. As you all know, complaints against a member of a of a law enforcement agency once they're filed and investigated, there has to be some type of civilian review in order for you to be in compliance the requirements. With that being said, the select board had established the Community Policing Advisory Review Board with some recommendations from the Safety and Equity Task Force that they started prior to CPARB, and we did have the opportunity to work when I say we administration here at the police department, along with one member patrol officer from the Bennington Police Department, to work with the safety and equity task force. To ensure that we were moving forward in the right direction. So lieutenant Grandi and I had a lot to do with the establishment of the Community Policing Advisory Review Board. Little bit disappointed with the way things went. We struggled. There's a lot of training initially when we first started this board that went into this. They brought in an outside vendor from Massachusetts, and it seemed like the training did actually take months and months to get going. We had a couple of members of the Community Policing Advisory Review Board that for lack of Better terminology. They didn't perform the way they were supposed to perform. And there was turnover. In the last, three years or so, we've established turnover and then we have to find people to replace. Sometimes there's only been four people on the board instead of the seven that are required. But we have really moved along and we've made great strides and great progress here in Bennington, in my opinion, with the way that we handle internal affairs investigations. All of our supervisors are trained in internal affairs investigations training, either through FBI Lita or at Roger Williams University down in Rhode Island. So we do take great pride in that, and both programs are fantastic, and it's nice having people attend both programs. So I myself personally have been to both and Lieutenant Grand Isle as well. It comes down to point where we do get very few complaints about law enforcement here in Bennington. We do receive standard complaints like any other agency. Why did I receive a ticket instead of a warning? Why was I singled out to get a parking ticket? To me, those those are not complaints against an officer. It's just someone expressing their frustration. There is an appeal process in both for the Vermont civil violation complaint as well as a parking ticket. Some people just don't understand the process. They might receive a criminal citation, and they can't make that particular date, and they're upset and they want the date changed. Those are all things that we work through. We can change dates for people and things like that that are not necessarily complaints about how an officer acted or interacted with someone. For us, it's taken some time, and I think right now we have a good working relationship with the Community Policing Advisory Review Board. They have really stepped up doing listening sessions and taking feedback from the community about the police department. They've actively encouraged people to complete the citizen survey that the town does every couple of years. You know, and if you had the opportunity to visit our town of Bennington website, you'll see all the notes minutes that are posted by the Community Policing Advisory Review Board. You'll get to see all of the wonderful things that they're doing here in Bennington. On the occasion that we do receive a complaint about an officer, it is thoroughly investigated by someone that is actually trained as an internal affairs investigator. You know, we do take anonymous complaints. We take complaints from folks, even folks that just want to call in and say that they want to lodge a complaint. A form will be filled out and we acknowledge that. I, as the chief, acknowledge the fact that they have filed their complaint. It is assigned to someone that is trained in internal affairs investigations, and then that comes back through the chain of command to the lieutenant and then to me. And if it warrants disciplinary action, that's what happens. We take the action based on the working agreement that the that the union folks have here. If they're not part of the union, then we follow the town of Bennington personnel manual. At the same time, we also comply with Act 56 with the Vermont Criminal Justice Council, and we have sent in the last couple of years. I believe two, maybe three complaints to the Vermont Criminal Justice Training Council for further review to ensure that we are in compliance. It's just another layer, right? So we have the opportunity to conduct the internal affairs investigation. We have our findings, but then we take the reports, The investigation any videos or recordings that are associated with the complaint, and we send those off to the Vermont Police Academy. And they have a subcommittee and then they have the full, the full board if necessary to take a look at that. I think what we have currently is working. And I know that there's been a recommended charter change where, I'm just taking a look to my left here because I want to make sure that I get it right, to delegate the responsibility to review video footage, transcripts and other materials following an investigation of a complaint against the police department to the existing Community Policing Advisory Review Board or to another board established by the select board to replace the Community Policing Advisory Review Board. You know, I do have some concerns about that as as the police chief. I think we've worked very hard to get our relationship established with the current Community Policing Advisory Review Board, and we are in compliance with the rules that are set in place by the Vermont Criminal Justice Council. In fact, Director Burkle was just here in Bennington about a month and a half or so ago, talking to our community policing advisory review board members. Letting the community policing advisory review board members know that we are doing what we are supposed to do, and express, we do have a concern about changing the charter and making it so that there's another board that would be able to actively investigate because that's actually what they're looking for, investigate the police when we have people here that are trained to do that. If you had the opportunity, if it was provided to you to review what the Charter Change Committee is looking for, they're looking for the opportunity to look in officers' personnel files and things of that nature, which I'm opposed to. I don't believe that they have the right to go into an officer's personnel file, and I'm going to use myself as an example. I know that this meeting is is able to be viewed later, and I and I will be right up front with you and and and and waive all of that and and and just share with you some things about myself. I have been battling, as an example, I have been battling prostate cancer for a couple of years now, and when you go out on a disability leave or a medical leave for surgery or what have you, all of that is maintained in your personnel file, and I don't think that folks should have the right to get into my personnel file and see what my life is all about. I don't think that people should be able to get into my personnel file and get the names and dates of birth and social security numbers of my children because my Blue Cross Blue Shield healthcare application is on file in my personnel file. We have some real concerns about that piece. When it says other materials, I think it needs to be more specific. If we want to say they want to review video footage, they want to I'm I'm not sure what transcripts they're they're talking about. We don't transcribe things here. We have in the past shared video footage during during a review with the select board of of some incidents that occurred here in Bennington. It wasn't the police department that was named in a civil suit, it was the Select Board for putting information out there. So, you know, we we have some concerns about that, but we have zero concerns about being transparent and and sharing the information that we come up with or that is determined following the conclusion of a legitimate and fair internal affairs investigation. We have that system in place now. The policy that is required by the Vermont Criminal Justice Council is that we be able to say that we have a civilian review. Currently, with our current Community Policing Advisory Review Board, we have civilian review. The information that we provide to them is we take that information about the complaint. We remove the complainant's name. We remove the the officer's name. It's all redacted, and they do get to see the facts of the case, the complaint. And then, if there if if the officer is exonerated, we tell them that. If the officer is found to be at fault, whether it's a policy failure or it involves a situation where an officer was just violated policy, we do report what we did to resolve that, whether it's training or time off or things of that nature. Again, I'm sharing with you what we do here in Bennington. This doesn't reflect any other department in the state, and so we are in favor. Again, I'll say it again. We are in favor of complete transparency and sharing with civilian review, but I'm not in favor of the way this is worded, where it says other materials, because in their report that they turned over, it does say that they want to get into personnel files, and I'm opposed to that.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Okay. Thank you for that detailed perspective. It's appreciated. I see a hand from Representative Pinsonault.

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault (Member)]: Yes. So chief, you have a town manager that you report to the town manager and then the town manager reports to the select board?

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: Yes, that is correct.

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault (Member)]: So select boards can get tricky because they come and go. And so to me, when took testimony in this, to me, it felt like there was a selfie trying to look fishy information. And if the select boards turn over, then the next time another select board member comes in, then they can start asking to look at stuff that they didn't have privy to prior to. So, this one addition to this bill made me very skeptic. And so that's why I personally wanted to have some more testimony on it as well. But I agree, don't think this is standard policy. That another board, you set up an advisory board, you don't need another board on top of the advisory board. Don't know if that's just my opinion, but I just wanted to clarify that you report to the town manager, the town manager reports to the select board.

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: Yes. I'll share with you, that's how we used to do things here in Bennington. There would be an internal affairs investigation, and I would take that. I would I would do the review, and then I would take the investigation across, well, across the street because that's where the town office is. I apologize. We're not in the same building. And I would share that with the town manager. The town manager, if it was anything other than if if if if the discipline involved time off or or anything like that, that that had to come by the working agreement that has to come from the town manager. If it's something that is retraining or something to that effect, then that comes from the police chief directly. And that's in the working agreement. We go by progressive discipline. I want to share with all of you one thing that I'm very proud of. When all of this came about, we worked diligently with the police union to get them to understand that we were going to create a new policy and procedure as far as internal affairs investigations go, that we were in more than compliance. We didn't get any kickback from members of police union. They were all fantastic. They got to see the policy before I signed it and put it in place. We've been rather resilient here. If you follow Bennington, we had a lot of issues in 2020, 2021, 2022 with crime and things like that, violent crime. In 2022, we had 22 shootings in Bennington, Vermont, which was crazy. The simple fact that my people held it together and we have been able to push back and push back on crime and really not generate very many complaints at all. Complaints that we generally receive things that we can talk to people. We don't talk them out of filing their complaint, but we find that if you just simply sit down with people and explain the process of like, for example, most recently was a domestic violence investigation. The one of the victim in the domestic violence said that she did not want her significant other arrested for domestic violence, but she displayed signs of injury. We have a policy and a protocol here in Bennington County where you must call the state's attorney's office and and, and you have to follow, you know what what their recommendation is, and the recommendation from the deputy state's attorney was was to make the arrest of of the offender, that generated a complaint. So sitting down and being able to talk to the victim and say, Hey, you know, we had to make this arrest. You know, she understood and that matter was resolved. It wasn't the fact that the officer was dishonest. Know, it just was a matter of them having to understand the policy. In my mind, that's not an internal affairs investigation complaint. It's getting someone to understand the protocols and the policies of the Bennington County State's Attorney's Office, and we're making sure that she's safe and is safe at home and the offender gets a break. And while while she's able to work out other arrangements through projects against violent encounters or what have you. There's a lot of little things like that that transpire, and that's what we try to get people to understand. We try to get people to understand the big picture. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a complaint about the officer for being untruthful or dishonest. It's just a matter of getting someone to understand the protocols that we have to follow here to keep people safe.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Thank you. Robert Hooper.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Member)]: Was there a specific incident that led to the request for this charter change?

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: I'm not aware of any specific incident that led to the request of the charter change. We had the incident where the select board was going to act as the group that civilian review under a former select board chair. It was supposed to be a one hour meeting. It lasted over three hours. There was information that went out to the media, not on behalf of the police department, and the incident, you know, resulted in in the entire seven member select board being named in a lawsuit and again, not the police department. So that was one thing that that why we were excited about having this situation where we were going to have a community policing advisory review board. It wasn't just to review police misconduct, was to give us some guidance where the community wanted to see us go. We learned a lot from this group that got together. We weren't selling ourselves enough, we weren't doing enough positive press releases, and in putting the information out into the community. As a result, we hired a person to do outreach for the town of Bennington. His name is Jonah. He's helped us revamp our website. Lieutenant Grand Isle and I got to go to Florida to learn better ways of of of putting together media releases and and things like that, and working with some agencies down in Florida to see how they promote themselves. We're really doing a much better job at that. I wouldn't say that there was a specific incident. We just weren't selling ourselves the way we should have been, And and and we've seen a big turnaround in that. And and I'm very proud to tell all of you, you know, for example, when when we needed a a new canine here, we needed to raise $15,000 and our community policing advisory review board membership stood up and said, Chief, we want to help you with this. Tell us what we need to do. And I said, Well, we need to raise $15,000 And when it all came together, the community came together and we raised $72,000 which was absolutely amazing. So we have two canines here in Bennington now. Named after General Stark and Grizzly. Just because it's a cool name, I guess. The bottom line is that we've really made some great strides here in Bennington. We're so involved, actively involved in our community with Bennington Night Out. I know a lot of people call it National Night Out. Our Community Policing Advisory Review Board folks come and support us and all of that. They help with the fundraising. So again, no specific incident. I realized that was a long answer for a short question, but it's just little things like that that we, very few complaints when we have the complaints. This is how it works. Personally meet with the chair of the Community Policing Advisory Review Board and and will say this is the complaint that we have and then that the chair of the Community Policing Advisory Review Board will say, Okay, let's put it on the agenda for this particular month. We make sure that everybody on the Community Policing Advisory Review Board receives the complaint and as well as the investigation and the outcome of the investigation. And then they have the opportunity to question me about the outcome of the investigation and how I got to how I got to that conclusion and the the discipline or not of the incident and has worked very well over the last three years.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Member)]: Thank you.

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: Thank you.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Any other questions for the Chief? Yep. I really appreciate your time, sir. That was valuable perspective and input. And we'll let you know if we have any questions moving forward. But I really, wanna thank you for your time.

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: Well, I wanna thank all of you for your time and and thank you for your consideration. I appreciate it. Have a good day.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Of course. You too, sir. Thank you. You both have a

[Chief Paul Doucette, Bennington Police Department]: Thank you.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So that keeps us reasonably on time for 02:30. Our next order of action is H694, and I think relating to the approval of the amendments to the charter of the town of Bennington concerning the town manager. And we are joined right now by, Tom Haley. How you doing, Tom? He's the chair of the Bennington Select Board. And if committee members recall, this is the language in and around the town manager's contracts. So, and that is what you're looking at. 694. So good afternoon, sir.

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Good afternoon. Thank you for having me.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Oh, yes. Of course. So we're just looking for perspective on this change that's being proposed on

[Unidentified Committee Member]: how

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: the structure and modification of the for the town manager, sort of how you got here, perspective, and feedback.

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Sure. And I'm happy to do that. I did just listen in on the chief's testimony, and I do have some opinions on that one as well. But knowing full well how important it is to keep on schedule, I'm happy to Okay. Come

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: No. That's that's great. So let's let's go through, six ninety four first, and if time allows before our 3PM order of business, I'll happily give you the the space to weigh in on the previous testimony, previous bill.

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Great. This amendment really, think, is just to clarify a right that according to our counsel, already have. But if a prospective candidate for a position were to look at the current charter, they might not understand. When we recently went through the situation where our longtime town manager, Stu Heard, passed away unexpectedly, we were immediately into a hiring process that we were hoping to have more time to prepare for. And it quickly became evident that the assistant town manager Dan Monks was incredibly well equipped to step into the role. But at the time, Dan did want a contract, at least for his for a few years. So we consulted with our counsel. She said we could certainly do that. At the same time, the Charter Review Committee was meeting and they thought that it would be beneficial just to clarify in the Charter that we could change things under contract.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Okay. So this is essentially, and I think we heard this before from previous testimony that, although you think you already have the ability, this is just clarifying that explicitly with this new proposal.

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Yes.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I have a feeling this testimony is gonna be brisk. Any questions?

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Yeah, I'm sorry. I try not to be very verbose if I could help you.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: No, no, no, no, no. I totally appreciate it. Did you have a question? Oh. Okay. I wasn't sure if that was any of you. So any questions for the chair of the select board? That gives you, sir, about fifteen minutes to speak your piece on the previous matter.

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Okay. I I I completely understand the chief's concerns. I think, essentially, as I understand it right now, the select board is the civilian review body. And what this charter change would do would be to allow us to delegate that responsibility. And I myself favor the charter change. I'm not a 100% convinced that I would necessarily favor delegating responsibility, but I do think it's a right that the board should have if the situation if a situation occurred where they where the the sitting board felt that it would be best to have some outside voices come in that they should be able to delegate that. In terms of the language around another body that the board, you know, seems would see fit, counsel actually, I think, advised on that in the event that at the time the police advisory review board had for whatever reason been disbanded, then it would give the select board the ability to form another board as necessary. I don't see this as something that the board would just do offhand. I think it would be very situational and that is our intent I think on that. But I just I think that it's been suggested by some people that we're looking to disband the community policing advisory review board and replace it with another board and that is not a discussion I I'm aware of anyone ever having.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Questions, rep Coffin? No. Since we're going back to it, I mean and this is great that you're here. One of the items that I thought that if I understood right with the chief with his bigot or problem where it says and other materials following an investigation, that that's too vague because of having access that could be interpreted for access to personnel records that have sensitive material in it. Is there and that's what I was taking away from that. Is that something Yeah.

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Again, I can see his concern there, but I would expect that any committee that is reviewing something would focus their attention on gathering evidence based on that investigation. So if there's something in the personnel file that's actually relevant, I would say that they would need to see it. But otherwise, I I don't see any reason that that that they would wanna look at personnel files or what have you. When I mean, when we when we seek the members of these committees, they do go through an interview process and we, you know, try to take into consideration whether they're they're going to be fair or if they're they have some sort of personal agenda or axe to grind. Those types of people we would stay away from because we're interested in true community representation that is going to make the best police department that we possibly have.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thank you. I just because that was what I picked out as part of his main worry was Mhmm. Personal information being

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Right. I mean, there is I can't see a place where I know the example he used was was his health his health issues. I can't see I can't perceive an investigation where that would actually be a relevant fact myself. But I understand his concern. Just think sometimes I think it might be a bit of overthinking.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay. Thank you.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Any other questions Okay. From the well, thank you very much again for your time, sir. That was, help on both matters. So thank you for weighing in on on both the bills. And I appreciate

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: your time. I'm available whenever you need me.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Wonderful. That's great to know. And so, yeah, we will reach out if we need anything further from you. But, you know and and thank you for doing the work on the select board. I know that that can be a lot of time, and I'd always thankful work. So, thank you very much.

[Tom Haley, Chair of the Bennington Select Board]: Thank you guys too.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yeah, you got it.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Take care.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: All right, committee, we've got a few minutes before our next order of business. Barring any other opinions on how to do this, we'll take a break for till 03:00. And Okay. A little bit of study hall. Alright. Sounds good. Alright, Nick. Take us off until three before we pick up OPR five eighty.