Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Alright. We are live.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Alright, everyone. Welcome back from lunch hour. It is just shortly after 1PM, and we are circling back to something from earlier this morning, which is, eight six h, excuse me, six thirty two, an act relating to miscellaneous environmental amendments. And that was a conversation we had yesterday about a couple of sessions ago on emergency rulemaking. And we are gonna take a position on this, a stronghold in support of guest or whether or not to support, I should say. Those sections we went over yesterday.

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: So

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: before I ask for thumbs, just wanna open the table for any more commentary or discussion. Seeing no hands. Seeing no. Okay. So thumbs up is to support the relevant sections that we reviewed for this committee's jurisdiction. So the thumbs in support. So I got +1, 234567.

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: And

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: non supportive phones. I have four. And no absences. Alright, thank you very much everyone. And if you'll bear with me for one moment before we move to H831, I need to communicate this.

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Thank you. Okay. Alright.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Up next, we are doing, witness testimony on h eight thirty one and act relating to requiring the secretary of state to include the year of passage in the number assigned to acts of the general assembly. And we have Tanya Marshall here from the state archivist state archivists and chief records office. Let's see you again. Thank you.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Thank you for having me. For the record, I'm Tanya Marshall. I'm the director of the Vermont State Archives and Records Administration, part of the Secretary of State's Office, and I'm the chief records officer in State Archives. I'm here to talk about acts and resolves. I did submit written testimony, so hopefully you had a chance to see that. It is done through our division. And this might be an easier bill than you think, because what I'll describe today is that that particular statute might be different than what you may think for that. And feel free to ask questions. But the action results, that statute in 3BSA 104, which is the printing and publishing, scope of work that we do for that is printing as publication at the end of the biennium. And what comes inside of it is actually produced by general council, or general assembly, meaning legislative council. So we actually don't do the form or format of the actual acts that you see online. That is done through legislative counsel. And then if you're referring to this from our statutes annotated, the publisher of that is legislative counsel as well. So it's more just to clarify, because I'm happy to help understand where you were seeing it. So one of our jobs as the State Archives and Records Administration is to know what unction people do and why they do them in the statutes. And when we listened to testimony last week, because we agree everything that we write when we're doing just regular programming or standards, we always refer to it as Act 171 of 2022, right? Because you always want that year. And I've been in state government since 2003 and in office, excuse me, when I have

[Unidentified Committee Member]: to see the administration at

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: the back of the statutes and try to understand the amendments, which are doing the math here. So we're happy to help in any way, shape or form. But what that statute is, from legislative clerks that we do assign the act number, but it's really just providing it as acts are enacted. And then we provide that information to the governor's office. We do pick up the original paper file, the paper act assigned from the governor and put that right into the archives during this course of the session. And then we communicate, though, back to legislative council what the act number is. And so what you do see published online is the General Assembly's own form and format of the acts. I'm happy to pass around the book if you would like to see it. It definitely is one of our oldest Secretary of State functions. This one is from 2022, if there's interest. But it is at the end of the biennium, and it's kind of streamlined through contracting. Lexis is the publisher. We own the contract to that. The files do go directly from legislative council to the publisher after being approved during the session. So it is an older law, it goes back to the archaic processes of paper and engrossing on big books, but that is the scope of this that that part of the section.

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: Yeah, since it's my bill, I'll ask some questions.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Me Sure.

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: Or this question at least. So if I'm understanding you correctly, it's it's how we, the legislature, present the bill to ledge camp presents it to ledge legislative council. And then when they write it, that's how you you don't actually assign the act number.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: We we provide the act number, but the document that you see. So if you're on, the legislature's website, for example, and you see an act and you see the enacted version, that's all within the general assembly. That is your general assembly record. So it is the legislature's record in the form and format of that, how it's structured, how it's formatted, where the f number appears, where the year appears, that is all within the legislative council's own format for the general assembly. Does that does that help explain that?

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: When assign the number, you're the key person numbers.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: We're the key for the number. And essentially because it's coming at different times off the governor's desk for that. So when it's enacted, it's a you know, as we track a database of one of our legislative clerk duties is to track, you know, the numbering system for it, but it and we have a legislative clerk function within our office. But let's say whatever signed by the governor today, governor will contact our legislative clerk and said, have signed I have passed you know, I've signed this bill. The clerk will pick up the signed bill from the governor's office because that's a paper based records mill, bring it back into the Vermont State Archives and Records Administration, go to the next number on the list, and let's just say it's 100. And then tell legislative council 100 has been passed. This is the bill number for it. Yes. What have you. Yep.

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: So the essence of the bill is can you say this is number one one hundred up to twenty twenty six?

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: That's what the essence

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Right. Know the essence of the bill is, but it it's we don't we don't write it down on your documents, and I think that's what is there a I I guess what the best explain it is that we're just communicating to legislative council. This bill has has been filed. The record is really a digital record. We're taking care of the paper record earlier, but it's a digital record. So when you see what you see online is general is general assembly's record, legislative council record. I'm not aware between all our communications with legislative council and the governor's office that there's a confusion related to the number.

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Confusion that I've had is, look at something and it says Act 72.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yes. Didn't explain.

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: In fact, was before Act 73, something of different.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Where where and where were you looking when you see that information that that's what I'm that's what we're trying to understand

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: okay that was brought to me by constituent

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: yes

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: because they're trying to find an ACT. Okay. So they type in ACT 100.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Okay. Like a Google Yes.

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: But if they only know, they know when it was passed, but they type in the ACT number.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Right.

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: Because this is what everybody's talking about. Right. Several different act hundreds will show up. This would designate them as Right. Act one hundred twenty twenty six.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Right. But the the what comes up in the Google search is the general assembly's act. The form, that is all constructed by legislative council. We don't touch those files. We don't see that's not where we write and we don't write, we don't engage with that actual digital file that's coming up in that search. This is the scope of it after the end of the session, as we get the files from the general assembly. So we don't handle the actual act that people are searching. There's no online presence to the Secretary of State's publication. Our role is really at the end of the biennium or whatever is available is just this paper printed volume. So my recommendation might be if someone's googling. Right? And I'm assuming they're gonna when they find a search, they're going they're touching the legislature's websites because that's where the information would come up. And the file that comes up is you know, it says legislative act. That is actually a an instrument form that's created by legislative council. We we don't we don't engage with that record until the end.

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: Legislative council assigning the number?

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Well, legislative council would be updating the document so it looks the way that you want it so it comes up in a Google search. It might be helpful if we even if we wanna pull up an act or something on the because our role, there's there's no public facing digital copy of it. Does that make sense? What we do is get the files in digital form after the biennium. The paper one, we do write it on the paper one, but no one's going in the paper archives to look for it. But when people are searching, I agree, it is within the general assembly's purview to change the instrument, that form that is used.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes, so I think there are a couple of issues here. I don't think that it's actually your office that we should be asking to do I believe it's legislative council that needs to be assigning the year to the bill, and then when the bill becomes enacted, it will have the year number. Because, for instance, if a constituent is reading a press release, and the individual in the press conference refers to Act 73, the public doesn't know when Act 73 was passed. So if they Google Act 73, they might come up with a clean water bill as opposed to an education transformation And that has happened to me as a legislator. So I think we need to be speaking with Ledge Council, and then they would convey that to your office when you archive this.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Yeah, It's really it's really the legislature's records. Our job is, you know, secure the paper original because we're still paper based signed signature states. And then the electronic files at the end of the biennium. We have two functions in the statute. It's in in one zero six, three BSA one zero six. One is to print this volume, which is the files that come from legislative councils that we don't we don't touch or change the format. And we don't do that for any records that come into the archives. Then the other part is we do get the electronic files to bring into the digital archives. But it's a different portal. So when you have people searching, and I agree that we have the same thing happen to us, right? We search, you come up and you don't see it. But it is actually within known General Assembly's own recordkeeping. So to have that in the header, to have that structure of language to say, Act 171 of 2022. So it comes up and it's clear on that particular PDF as it comes up. That is all within. I'm hoping that clarifies.

[Unidentified Committee Member (sponsor of H.831)]: No, absolutely did. No, no.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: You understand where you're coming from. So you just have to redirect the focus part.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Yeah. And I think that would help the public very much for that part of it, but it is the online presence of that is all within the general assembly and that is the general assembly's own documents and structure.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Other than the fact that it

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: would be up to Act 20032, is the reason that you restart every year?

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: It's, I can look up the history behind that, it started in 1825. There's been a lot of different restructuring of how like even the statutes have been done and thought about titles that didn't happen until I think the 1950s or so. And there hadn't been a fair numbering system. So that goes back to at least 1825. But I'm happy to look up just the history of the sequential number. But for the most part, early on, even when I started for state governments, we formalized having it say the act number and the year. And rarely have people have confusion, but it's different when you're searching online. Yeah. But I'm happy to look that up and just send it to the committee to find. But since 1825. And for the most part, the numbering sequence sometimes very rare for bill numbers, has it gone over you know, high? But build numbers for the most part, a in any or acts, I should say, in any given biennium are always, you know, not not high numbers. And it is structurally easier to do for databases and other things of that nature, but it has been in place in detail.

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: I think you've pointed adequately to which don't put me

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: Yeah, so I think if you do a search and you find where it lands, but yeah, that instrument probably in the past, know, it's handwritten, but that was transcribing and then going to the typesetter for this type of book, but right now it is pretty consistent and that's sitting within legislative council.

[Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Okay. That's who we need to talk to

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: next. No, you definitely helped us.

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: I thought this might be the easiest bill you might have right now. Because I don't think you have statutory changes necessarily. But I know there was a reference to Vermont Statutes Annotated. I put inside the written testimony in the bottom. The publisher for that is legislative counsel. There is some more structure within that. But again, I still think that's well within the purview of the generals. Well, thank you all for your time.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Thank you. It's good to see you

[Tanya Marshall (Director, Vermont State Archives and Records Administration; State Archivist and Chief Records Officer)]: again. Yeah.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Alright, team. We're a little bit ahead of schedule. We have guests at 01:30, coming in. Thank you so much. Yeah. Regional planning commissions, to offer, their insight on questions that surfaced yesterday from some folks at the table. But we got ten minutes until their arrival. So I'm gonna take us offline until 01:30, and we will speak to those individuals. Thank you. Bye.