Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Chair Matthew Birong]: All right, we're live. All right, good morning, everyone. Thursday, February, 09:15 ish, and we are having conversations in and around emergency management and disaster response omnibus bill, which is going to be broader conversation moving forward over the next couple of weeks. So before we get to counsel, we have a couple of guests with us, who, wanna share some insight and perspective from their respective organizations. The first two guests will be speaking to, more of the, emergency response aspects of things. And I know these aren't unfamiliar faces to the committee, but they are very familiar faces to me. Gentlemen, how are you?

[Dean Gilmore]: Good morning, Oh,

[Chair Matthew Birong]: wow. That was a nice like, you did that in tandem. That was well timed.

[Chief David DiBiase]: We practiced. We practiced.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Well, you nailed it, chief. Okay. So I wanna start off with team Gilmore because I'm just going right down the punch list that I have. And senator Kalimar and I and a couple of others had the opportunity to sit down with Dean, and hear about some of the, perspectives and desires from the firefighters association last, I don't know, fall, late winter, whatever it was. But, for the sake of me stopping my needless diatribe, Dean, the table is yours.

[Dean Gilmore]: Good morning. Thank you Chairman Birong and members of your committee. My name is Dean Gilmore. I'm a past assistant chief of the New Haven Volunteer Fire Department, serving them for forty eight years and for the past two years serving the city of Regent's Fire Department. I represent Addison County Fire Fires Association on the Vermont State Fire Fires Association executive board and represent the Vermont State Fire Fires Association as chair of the governmental affairs committee. I've served in the capacity of a town fire warden assistant and warden. So the proposal that the Forest and Parks I was asked to speak on, this came up at our last VSFA executive board meeting on January 18 and was supported. There's many cases throughout the state where the fire warden is appointed by the select board and the person is not even able to navigate an incident or trained to manage an incident. There are many cases where the select board making the appointments have no clue what the duties of a warden are. Bringing the rules that were established in nineteen o four up to date only makes sense. Make the fire chief the warden. He or she will have to have to deal with the fires kindled that get out of control. He or she are in better positions to educate the general public on the rules and liabilities, and are in better position to submit required reports which would also result in more accurate data on actual fires for forests and parks, which I believe could increase the funding from the federal government. There are towns that do not have their own fire department, but appoint a warden that has no firefighting experience or training. Moving that position to the chief of the department that covers these towns gives them a better handle on permits being issued. We commend the forest and parks on making the effort to clean up outdated rules and striving to work with the fire service when we have these out of control fires. That doesn't mean that the chief, this would actually allow the chief to appoint some of those wardens, but gives them control over those deputy wardens, so called. Presently, if a town select board decides they're going to appoint a warden and a deputy warden, the warden has no authority over the deputy warden, so they don't have to work together. There's no requirement. Thank you, chairman Birong, allowing me to speak before you and your committee, respectfully. Dean.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay. And I I kinda wish representative Hooper of Randolph was in here because he was kinda trying to help us organize things in and around, fire services. So the the policy ask you're looking for is for for continuity and, like, direct authority over the is it your your connection was a little muddled, so it's not picking up everything you were saying.

[Dean Gilmore]: Okay. So, basically, right now, the way the system is set up, the fire warden is not although the forest and parks would like to have the fire warden a member of the local fire department, that does not And always so they have no control over the permit process or anything. And it's the fire department that has to go deal with the out of control fires. Generally, like I stated earlier, many times the warden is not capable of going out and actually doing anything to maintain that fire, doesn't have the training, doesn't have the training to be an incident commander. This would being a fire chief, they need all that training. And they get basic wildland fire training when any firefighter that comes into the fire service gets that basic training. Fire wardens don't get that basic training.

[Chief David DiBiase]: Understood. Mr. Chair. Yes. David for the record. And I think Kate's in the room, maybe. I think I see her head behind you guys. Beverly, sorry. So I think this is just generally supportive.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: I was like, hi, good to see you. Hi, Kate.

[Chief David DiBiase]: Hi, both Kate's. Miss this Kate and I get to work together when I was deputy at BGS. And so I'm excited to hear her over here pushing forward some of these other items from the IR side. So this is really in support of what A and R is putting forward in their draft of kind of repositioning a bill from the early 1900s or the statute language from then into modern times. As the chief of regens, I'm a great example of that. Right. So the city of Regens covers the state Regens. We also cover the towns of Panton, Waltham and 50% of the town of Ferrisburg. So we're in a kind of unique position where I'm the chief. We respond to the incidents, but we generally have no oversight or say into the activities in those other towns that are not directly my municipal body. So I have oversight in the Virgins when it comes to Patton Waltham or the 50% of Ferrisburg that I cover. Those town fire wardens may make decisions that are either outside the capacities of my organization to respond to. I certainly know that you guys are talking in the state as a whole and ANR is saying, hey, these things are getting worse, right? We're seeing more and more of these incidents across the state. I don't think the trend is going to go the other way anytime soon, unfortunately, for us. And so when the local fire departments get depleted and somebody could be issuing permits while we're in another jurisdiction fighting a wildland fire and they have no idea, right? There's no continuity between those entities to understand what types of capacity, what incidents have occurred or are occurring currently while they may be issuing permits in a town two towns over. And so that's an issue that really doesn't have a solution at this point. And what ANR is proposing in DC or Parks and Recs is proposing solves those issues for us. I think, like Dean said, to echo that sentiment, I'm also the vice president of the Vermont State Firefighters Association. And we really support the changes that are being put forward. And we think it'll be huge, hugely beneficial also for the continuity between parks and rec and the local on the ground troops, right. And so that gets kind of murky when you guys, the state deploys assets, which is kind of a new thing for them to the degree that they have been trying to work with either the incident commander being the fire chief or the forest fire warden that may otherwise have no integration into the fire departments. So it would clear that line of communication up as well. And worst case scenario, right, if there was a disagreement, the fire chief is still the end result to say, Hey, Mr. Fire Warden, I know I appointed you, but I'm the guy having the ultimate say because I'm the person responsible and we're going to change that direction at this point because of the incidents we have going on. So very supportive of this, and we're very happy to see something changing in this front.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: All right. No, thank you. And so this actually maybe flashback on some testimony we took on another matter yesterday, the day before where somebody said we're using nineteenth century statute, and we're trying to solve twenty first century problems. So this seems to follow to that same sort of gain of policy updates. So, okay, totally understood. And we know we have the proposal. And so that's wonderful words to work off of. So it's good to hear that you're supportive of that. Any questions for Dean or Mr. DiBiase on this one? And I think, David, you wanted to speak to something else as well, right?

[Chief David DiBiase]: Yeah, if your committee has time to hear me out for a moment and see if we can have conversation about that, that'd be great.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Cool. Yeah, we got nothing but time right now. We actually have a good slug, but like on this first chunk, do we have any questions from the table? Sense. Okay. Cool. Alright. Look at that. Moving brisk. Chief Dehbiase, to your next point.

[Chief David DiBiase]: So this kind of wraps up to some testimony I gave your committee last year around the urban search and rescue, not specifically to the state entity, but to the support systems that the local municipalities provide through MOUs or MOAs with Vermont Emergency Management. So I think you guys are mostly aware that the state has their U Star team, which has water assets or technical rescue rescue assets. But generally, the first line of defense, just like our fire order and things we were just talking about, are the local groups. So departments like mine, and there's, I think, maybe seven or nine others in the state that have agreements for to assist the state of Vermont. And then there's certainly other local teams that don't have these agreements, but are those communities first responders out the door to a technical rescue incident. And I kind of emphasize that because it's different than our firefighting duties, right? Those things are not in the firefighter one manual, it's not generally what we're taught to go respond to a house fire or the things that we think about. But the fire service has kind of evolved into this all hazards mitigation group that responds to anything that comes in. So somebody falls down a cliff, somebody gets hurt on a hiking trail, somebody in the back countries of Vermont skiing gets hurt with our ski patrol friends, a water rescue occurs in a in a local swimming hole, or gosh forbid, we have some catastrophic flooding like we've seen over the last couple of years. So I'm hoping to look towards a micro grant. These programs are very expensive. They do not generally get funded as a priority when towns are struggling to put fire apparatus or put fire gear on the backs of their firefighters as it is. So when we look at taking on extra duties per se, like a technical rescue team, the training, the equipment is immensely expensive, and we can certainly provide some more data on that for the committee. But we are hoping to put forward a micro grant. I think my initial request was like $25,000 a year that that DPS would administer towards these technical rescue assets that the state has with MOUs or local groups have, independently of that, that would fund training and equipment. So I think the limit was five per year. And again, I can forward this on to Mr. Cheaperong with a limit of $25,000 But $5,000 to a single team sounds like not a lot maybe to you guys and the big money that that goes around. But for us, $5 is really changing for these programs. And puts gear on their backs. It puts training that would otherwise not be able to be sent away. So if I send somebody to a water rescue training, it's probably $100 per person. And I have to do that every three years to keep them in that certification loop. That's just one water rescue, not the rope rescue, not the trench rescue, not the ice water rescue that all of these teams somehow fundraise, find, beg, borrow and steal for. It would be a huge addition to this group across the state to bolster our capabilities as a state to deploy and respond to these incidents. So that's the gist of what I was hoping to accomplish. Kind of and Kate's gonna laugh on the backside here. You know, BGS had the communities grants that they serve out, and it's very similar in nature to that that's carried through in the capital bill, where, know, there's a group of people, I think the bill language stated some volunteer fire, career fire, EMS, DPS, and members of both House Gov committees to kind of put forward, okay, here's the request, We prioritize the people that serve the entire state. And then secondary to that, we fund the groups that serve their very much smaller geographic areas. So I know that was a lot and a little bit of time, but hopefully that gives you a great overview of the idea behind trying to fund at small scale, but pretty impactful scale to the local responders.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: No, no, that's appreciated. Representative Hango has a question.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. You said water rescue only?

[Chief David DiBiase]: No, I think tech rescue as a whole. Water rescue is probably the one that most people know about. But water rescue, rope rescue, ice rescue, any of these technical disciplines that are outside of our normal firefighting duties?

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Okay, I'm glad I asked because I thought you were excluding those and only focusing on water. I

[Chair Matthew Birong]: heard it the same way. No, it's a great question. You said it.

[Chief David DiBiase]: I'll say like, you know, we went last year just in my area. Our technical team went to Middlebury, for example, right, with the town of Middlebury Technical Rescue team and Middlebury PD and the Vermont State Police backcountry team. We spent eight hours rescuing one individual on the hillside in the snow. And these the temperatures that we're experiencing now and in whatever they showed up with, to be fair, right? Like some people had great gear, some people didn't. And sometimes we got into situations where people came off and we were having to relieve teams that may have gotten close to the limit of becoming part of the incident, right? And emergency responders always want to do the thing and they want to get it done. And they want to make sure they're helping those people. And we get really close to that line sometimes and gear and equipment goes a long way in training, of course, to prepare us to not put ourselves in a position where we're adding to that incident. So we see it. We try really hard with what we've got. But this small amount of money would be just big, big deal on something on that local level.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. I really appreciate that. And it's great work that you So

[Chair Matthew Birong]: I guess we're creeping up on, of course, we're starting to build this. Correct. Yes. We're starting to, like, work on this bill itself, but it's also bed budget memo season for appropriations. So if you could send a letter outlining that request for us to consider, that would be helpful for us to do that once we start having that conversation.

[Chief David DiBiase]: I'll get it to you guys. But before the end of the day.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And could you copy our committee assistant, Nick Adams on it, please?

[Chief David DiBiase]: Yeah, absolutely. The keeper of all.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Yes. Need help in that respect.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: He is a warehouse. We all do. All right, any other questions for these gentlemen while we have them in front of us? No? Seeing no hands. Actually, do have one. Okay. Representative Hooper of Randolph?

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Member, Randolph)]: What made you decide 25,000 would be your ask as opposed to, say, 50? Or

[Chief David DiBiase]: it was me trying to let you know, I was deputy commissioner of BGS, and sometimes these small numbers actually make it through. When we make them too large, I get scared that people are going to

[Chair Matthew Birong]: take them

[Chief David DiBiase]: off the table. But any more than that would only be even more wonderful and appreciated by the groups that take their time to do this. So I think when Dean and in the Addison County Reps met, they did have that same conversation and they kind of pushed that number higher. I just don't want to get lost because it gets too big, to be fair. Any little bit for us is huge. Yeah,

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Member, Randolph)]: it makes sense. That's a good calculus. What would, though, if like would be the largest optimal number

[Chair Matthew Birong]: if it was, you know, Infinity and beyond? No. No. It it's weird. When it

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Member, Randolph)]: comes to government budgeting, you know, spending every last dime just because you have to, to me, is this ridiculous thing. So there is a sweet spot. And the truest thing he said was $5,000 goes a really long way in the fire service compared to other investments. Like, that's a really good place to put five gs's, and that's a tiny amount of money for us. So

[Chief David DiBiase]: I think, you know, the $25 is huge. I would love to see it be successful in the ways of state government with DPS kind of heading that up. And I think I would love to see the USAR task force leader, which we created and statute last year, right, too, or the year before. And I'm just very excited that these groups have brought this stuff forward. He oversees these teams and understands the dynamics. But I think if we piloted this with a smaller amount of money and maybe we built it out over time to show that these aren't going to like, I hate to see money go to a place that this isn't a team that actually responds. This isn't a team that actually gets out the door to help others and it's going to something that's not. So that 25 to fifty, fifty, I would say, let's expand from five to 10 organizations as opposed to more money to each. And maybe there's a caveat there within that grant program to say, hey, if we really do, this project really makes a whole lot of sense, like you need 10 water rescue suits this year or your team's going to have to come off board, that grant committee has the ability to say, okay, we can issue up to a $10,000 grant in those instances. So flexibility. But yeah, I think let's make sure it works and does what I think it'll do, which will make a big impact.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay, thank you.

[Dean Gilmore]: Representative Birong, I would just comment that when we had our meeting there and I I brought this up, the same question came up. Why just 25,000? And I think that we were we agreed that, you know, if we shoot for a 100,000 and end up with 25,000, we're gaining a lot. Yep. So that was the figure that we we agreed on at that meeting to shoot for. And certainly, if we got that 100,000, we'd be ecstatic. So

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Yeah. No. No. No. And that's, like, you know, sort of the I'll call it the risk calculation of building in cushion to an ask is does the cushion scare away the ultimate desired goal? So, it is an interesting thing to try and work. But yeah, get us the request letter with a little bit of detail and any other information that you think is relevant to for us till we have a give us a good understanding of what you're looking for. But if you could just, outline that a little bit in the request itself so we had something tangible to work off of, that would be amazing.

[Chief David DiBiase]: Yeah, I have a bill request that I put together earlier in the session that I don't think made it through. I think the Senate was going try to put something forward. So I have some bill language. I don't know if that would be enough to extract the data from or if you wanted a different format, but that I could send within minutes.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: If you could just maybe bifurcate the ask from the language, like give it to us in, like, two buckets so we can understand the, like, nuance of the request. But, just it just fragmented a little. Rep, hango.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: You mentioned a grant committee to make the decisions who gets the grants. I'm sorry, I missed this. Does one already exist or would that have to be stood up?

[Chief David DiBiase]: It would be, I think, DP, it would need to be stood up. We did outline some people in that bill language that we thought would be appropriate to make sure that we are encompassing everybody. We're flexible, man. If that money's out there, however makes the decisions, as long as they're not the people put it somewhere else, I don't think we're hard hard to ask on that. But I think the USAR team leading that group only makes the most sense to ensure we're getting it to the places that really need it. And they just have a better handhold on the statewide enterprise than the local people do.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: So if that doesn't already exist in the statute, I would want to see that language who you think should be on that committee, please.

[Chief David DiBiase]: I could send the overview like the chair asked for and all of sudden the bill language that we came up with both and you Okay. Guys have it

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Thank you so much.

[Chief David DiBiase]: Absolutely.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Anybody else with these gentlemen? Seeing no hands. Alright, thank you guys. I'll see you back.

[Chief David DiBiase]: Thank you all for your time. Yep.

[Dean Gilmore]: Thank you.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: And we're going. Yeah. We came in for a, you know, a one on one chitchat, but we're discussing the relevant bills. So thank you for sticking around and offering for a formal testimony.

[Lauren-Glenn Davitian]: I appreciate it. Once it's wonderful to see everyone. I'm Lauren Glenn Davidian, exec well, no longer executive director of policy, public policy director of CCTV, representing Vermont Access Network and the Community Radio Network. As I've testified before, we are requesting $1,890,000, to support community communications, which does also include emergency communications, particularly on the radio side. And the governor's budget includes 1,350,000.00. So, our request is about 540,000 in addition to that level funding. The additional $540 is due to the decline in cable revenue, the increase in expenses calculated at the COLA cost of living, and the addition of the community radio theme, which is nine community radio stations across the state in addition to the 24 community media centers. So we are hoping that your budget memo will include the full 1,890,000.00, and we're happy to answer any questions. And I appreciate, of course, always the friendliness of this room and the opportunity to present.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Thank you. And yes, Representative Nugent.

[Rep. Kate Nugent (Member)]: Thank you. And can you remind us out of that $540,000 is it $90,000 for community radio that has been added in?

[Lauren-Glenn Davitian]: That's correct.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: I got Pinsonault.

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault (Member)]: Was there budget money for the radio last year, or was this an all new program?

[Lauren-Glenn Davitian]: The radio was funded out of an emergency. I don't know what the bill was. Do you remember, Representative Hooper? There was a separate bill, emergency services, in which the radio team was included. So, we were asked by the Secretary of State and also Senate Appropriations Chair to include radio in the Vermont access network ask this year for operations.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Rebecca?

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: I think it was our omnibus bill last year, was it not?

[Chair Matthew Birong]: It was this very same vehicle that we're building. That's why I was like, great timing. Yeah. Robert Hooper, Burlington.

[Chief David DiBiase]: I know if you saw, I saw the increase in coverage that contribution last year gave to a particular certain area that probably tripled the coverage area moving the antenna from, you know, all up to the top or something.

[Lauren-Glenn Davitian]: For GDR and GTH, yeah, they move the antenna up, you need to increase your coverage area. And I think you remember that Lamo, Lady Stanick, testified earlier. They are so articulate about the value and importance of radio during these times. Certainly community television doesn't necessarily have the reach because we can go out and we're also on the internet, so as long as there's power, people can watch these emergency programs that we produce also. But radio is certainly the most reliable means. If they were describing, can get into your truck and listen, and that's that hasn't even occurred to me. Of course, that's true. That's what people need to do in those circumstances.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Yeah, and I'm just trying to think about it. I I want to digest the memo before I ask questions, but I guess I think I'll address there. I think I got enough input from our conversation before you sat down. Anything else we'll do?

[Lauren-Glenn Davitian]: Just a question. Sure. In our letter to the committee assistant, to your committee, by the way, the committee assistant, would you like us to mention the omnibus bill or just? The request is fine. We know

[Chair Matthew Birong]: what the vehicle is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So just like- that's fine. Speak to the need for the larger ask, Vince, let's in the governor's budget request.

[Lauren-Glenn Davitian]: Yes. Yeah. We calculated those numbers many times. You know, the gap is more in the order of 2,500,000.0, but we're not expecting legislature to make up that whole difference, of course. So, that was how we came up with that, with the Secretary of State. So, thank you.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Rebecca, the other hand.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: I do believe that Lou Mulvaney Stanick has addressed most of this in her letter to us, but if you would like to just close the loop and have something under your name, that would be great.

[Lauren-Glenn Davitian]: We've got it coming from Paul Snider. Wonderful. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Alright. So, moving on to console. Does it just get hold on one second Tucker hold on one second Tucker hold off. Yeah, I'm going to call a short time out on committee right now, just to do a little bit of document review before we start speaking with counsel. So, let's hit the pause button until