Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Right here, live. Alright. Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to government operations military affairs. It is Wednesday, February 4, a little after 9AM, and we are picking up work continued work on five eighty eight, our OPR bill. And our first witness of the day, it's already seated with us. We have lieutenant Stephen, detective Michael Steuben, lieutenant of the Bureau of Criminal Investigation for the Vermont State Police. How are doing, sir? Well, thank you.

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: First time here. In this committee, yes.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Alright. Nice to meet you. Pleasure. So, yeah, I see you're set up for a slide deck for us. And, yeah, we're all yours. Great.

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: So I've been asked to come in and just talk a little bit, give a bit of overview of the illicit massage, business, as a whole, a little bit of what we have going on in Vermont. As I said, like student with the state police, lieutenant of the Bureau of Criminal Investigations. I've been with the state police since 2003, approximately twenty three years of service, and will be around for about another seven months until I retire. I've been doing the human traffic coordinating with the state police since 2019, and one of the responsibilities with that is, for investigations into illicit massage parlors. So hopefully for today, we'll talk about the appearance of the illicit massage parlors, the business profile, the victim profile, the client profile, the business model, and then some of the investigatory obstacles that we've encountered while doing some of these investigations. So this is kind of what you'll see. It's it's, standard kind of across all these different businesses. You'll notice that looking from the outside in, they're usually all blacked out, have a little bit of what the photo indicating a little bit of what the business is. But the reason why they look like this is cause they don't want everybody from the public to see what's going on on the inside. So these are just some photos of a few different, parlors that we have throughout the state. And as you can say, they all look the same. So they're all modeled, in the same appearance, and it's because they all have the same purpose. It's the privacy and and seclusion that draws in the clients that they serve. So that's what you'll see, and that's a real good way to to identify, these types of businesses, as they present themselves. These are some of the advertisements that you'll see when you visit these websites. This is obviously not traditional, for what you would see a legitimate massage parlor. These are just crop photos that all of these different parlors use, and and it's not that these specific, ladies are working in this parlor, but this is just universally used throughout, the country for these types of, businesses. Whereas this is what you get when it looks like for a legitimate, massage business. Much more open, looks more professional, and you get a sense of the type of work that they're doing, and not just selling the person that's in the photo. So the business of illicit massage is very highly organized. Usually, organized crime, it's very they're all run-in the same manner. The women that work in these, if they're on the East Coast, they come into the country primarily through Flushing, New York. If it's on the West Coast, it's usually in through California, most of the time, Los Angeles. One of the hallmarks of these businesses is that the women that work in there are constantly moved around. If not up and down the East Coast, well, then definitely regionally, and throughout the state if there are enough of them, to keep them employed. So, you know, that's we'll talk about some of the obstacles that we have for investigating these, and, obviously, it's very tough to prosecute a crime if you don't have a victim. And so if your victim disappears, either before you can even start an investigation or during the investigation, then that absolutely compromises the investigation itself. Victim So movement is a big issue. They are extremely profitable.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: It's Quick question just on what you were saying. On the on the East Coast hub out of Flushing, my family's all in New York City. I speak city well. So are we seeing that or are you folks seeing that? What what, factions of the organized crime syndicates? Is it like the Eastern Europeans? Is it Italians? Mostly,

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: since it's an Asian business, it's usually organized Chinese Grand families that that run it.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Triad type of thing. I don't yeah. I'm not

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: sure exactly how they identify themselves, but, yeah, that Flushing, New York is the hub for that. Okay. They're extremely profitable. It's primarily a cash business. As you can understand, if you're frequenting this type of business, you don't wanna leave a paper trail. So you probably don't want your wife or significant other looking at the credit card statement and seeing all of these, expenditures to, these illicit massage parlors. So they are primarily a cash business. A lot of it's not reported, so it's all, tax free. And you're talking even on a smaller one, say, for instance, a business down in Brattleboro, you're talking about over a half million dollars going in there, cash free or tax free on cash. One of the hallmarks of these businesses is they only take male clients. If a female tries to call and schedule an appointment, they are turned away. So they are male only. They're open seven days a week, most holidays. So, you know, these women that are working in there, there's no time off. Every day, all day, usually about a ten hour shift or so. Opens around 09:00, or so in the morning, and then stays open till nine, 10:00 at night, and that's seven days a week. And it's a similar similar business model throughout every single one of these, whether you're in Vermont, Massachusetts, California, or Iowa. They all operate on the same model because they're usually run by the same types of of groups, and, you know, the model works. So, why reinvent the wheel? And they're they're hidden in plain sight. They're in strip malls all throughout the country, all throughout Vermont. You know, they've got a a legitimate business on one side, you know, maybe a Verizon store on one side, and a furniture store on the other, and they blend right in. And that's how they succeed, because they don't draw attention to themselves. Any questions on the business model? Yes,

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: ma'am? I

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: was just thinking about the buildings and how just wondering how they're able to function for as long as they are without even I would imagine they would need a zoning permit often, just even to operate it. They get all the necessary permits with

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: the town and all the licensing because it's basically just money. They have a person on the backside who has a Korean record, no criminal record, no issues or violations within the state, and that's the front person. And, you know, that's that's who they, put up as a figurehead to the business. And they don't they don't cause trouble. They, pretty quiet. They clean. They take care of themselves. They operate under the radar.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Yes, sir. No. I'm good. Yeah. Yeah.

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: So who are victims in this? Majority of the time, they're Chinese and Korean females. Like we said, brought in for, this purpose or at least transitioned to this purpose. What makes it hard is usually a language barrier. Know for the state of Louisiana, we have a Mandarin speaking trooper, but we do not have, anyone who speaks, Korean fluent. So when you're trying to do these investigations and you're using a translation service, maybe over the phone, it's very clunky. It's not very smooth, and it's it definitely posts. There are postings for these. We've done some investigations, talked to some of the, females that have come out of there, and they've applied for a job, saying doing a different type of service, they show up to these, businesses. They're usually taking away from their comfort zone, where they have support systems, and, they end up doing a job that they didn't sign up for, which is massage with, sexual activities associated with it. We talked about how they're moved around quite a bit. They don't stay in one place for too long, unless they kind of develop a following, and maybe they'll stay a little bit longer if the business is good. But if the business isn't good, then they'll send them to the next place, and they'll just, kinda complete a little bit of circuit. They do have a little bit of autonomy, so it's hard to say that they're being trafficked per se. Because, if they get approval to leave, they are kind of on their own and allowed to travel freely, go on a vacation or whatnot. But when the time to come back, when they're told to come back, they come back. And they're confined most of the time to either the business or they're put out in housing tied to the business. So there's always some sort of a control aspect over that. Most of the time, you'll find that they're actually living, working, eating, sleeping within the business. And they don't stray too far from the shop. So they really don't have that autonomy that you think that most people who have a job do. Their fee, their they make their money off of the sexual activities that they provide. So, the business gets the money for the massage, and then any extras that they receive for any sex acts that they perform is what they keep. And by keep, they make the money, but then they have to pay house fees. They have to pay for either living there or for their rent somewhere else, for food, for supplies for the business. So by the end of the day, they it may look like they're making a decent amount of money, but when you deduct everything that they have to give back, there's really not much money, if anything, that they're left with. So, you know, you add that to the fact that they're really not free to go because it's controlled by somebody else. They really are trafficked in these situations.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: You were talking so outside of the the the front, the the business itself, You mentioned that they were having to basically pay money to the house off of their proceeds for the sex work. Could you describe or give us an idea of what, like, living conditions are like? Transportation conditions? I just the guys are just where they'll be shuttled in and out. They'll have somewhere else where the people are being domiciled. Could you speak to that with a little bit of

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: Yeah. For sure. So as far as the living situation, well, we've seen in our experience, well, they'll all be put up in one room. So if there's four people, they're all living in one room, sometimes sleeping in the same I wouldn't even classify it as a bed. Sometimes it's just a piece of plywood thrown down with some blankets and pillows, and everybody lives in the same place, and sleeps in the same place, same room. They, will have maybe a small eating area where they're all, will eat together. The lady who kinda runs the day to day operations will be responsible for the cooking, providing them the meals and, cleaning up the place, laundry, things of that nature. And then that's what they'll be, paying for. As far as transportation to and from, that'll all be coordinated by the business, but, again, will be paid for by the worker. And that can get pretty pricey if you're coming and taking a taxi from New York, to Vermont, you know, talking 4 or $5,600, which they're responsible to either pay upfront or to work off. As far as the clients, the profile that we've seen, the ages, there is no specific age. It ranges from someone in their twenties to we've had, people up until the mid seventies. They tend to be white males. There's a few outliers to that, but that's the majority of it. And it's all economic status. It's from those that are retired, those that are laborers, those that are, professionals, lawyers, doctors. It doesn't really matter. And they come from, majority of the time, they're out of state folks that will come in. That's why you'll see a lot of these parlors set up right on the border, especially that's how it is in Vermont, so that you can get those influx of people from either, say, New Hampshire, New York, Massachusetts. But that's not to say that there's not local Vermonters that are also frequent in these establishments. And they go to this place for privacy. Obviously, you can see how the buildings are designed or the the fronts of them are, where it's all whacked out and you can see him, and that's what they, that's what they go there for. They the the clients that attend massage parlors, the illicit ones, are really their own community. There's forums that are set up where you can go online. You can give your reviews. You can ask questions. They have their own separate language that they use to talk about the services that these places render. The girls that they requested, they'll rate those as well. So it it it is quite a little tight tight knit community, of these folks that, frequent these massage plotters, and it's a lot of repeat customers, that go over and over again, and build a relationship, so to speak, with the workers inside. So how does the business work? You can either do it by appointment or walk in. It really doesn't matter. As we said before, there's initial cost to the house of $80 for the massage. Like that that it's usually paid in cash, probably about 98% of the time. Then you're brought into a room, not what you would think of for a massage, typical room for a legitimate, business. You're undressed. You have the option to get what they call a table shower, which is to go down and get a shower before your massage starts. They'll bring you there. They'll bring you back into the room. There's usually about a half hour of a legitimate massage. After about a half hour or so, they call it the flip, whereas the, woman performing the massage will ask if there's anything else that you would like. And sometimes if you're new, it'll give you a list of what those services are and the costs that go with it. If you're a well seasoned customer and you already know what you want, then you just ask for it at that point, and that's usually when the cash is exchanged. And then the services range $40 on the cheap side for just the basic, hand job, all the way up to 200 plus for, full intercourse. And it does vary. We've seen them give, the same services for different price. So it's not like there's a set standard for The money usually is taken out of the room, put in a safer place, and then when the masseuse comes back in, that's when the sex act is performed. After the sex act is performed, the client will get cleaned up, will get dressed, and then they'll head out. And usually, the whole process takes about an hour. And then this process is repeated for every customer that comes through. Sometimes you'll have as few as two, workers at a time, up to maybe four or five depending upon how many clients, come in throughout the day. When we do these types of investigations, you know, we've these are kinda some of the obstacles that we've run into. The language barrier is huge. The victim movement, it's very tough to do an investigation and have a successful prosecution of a case, if you don't have a cooperating victim. The onus is really, on the victim to get everything. Licensing, registration, all of that is placed on the victim, and that's an obstacle for us because we try to do these investigations victim centered, so we don't wanna prosecute or penalize the victim. There's very little, onus on the business itself. So there's very little, when we do these investigations to place on the victim to hold the or to on the business to hold them accountable, and that's, part of, why I'm here today. So, having a way to hold the business accountable, is really ideal, if not on the criminal side, to at least have some sort of, mechanism on the administrative side. And, you know, that these investigations, they take a lot of time, take a lot of resources to do a criminal investigation. But there was if there was an administrative mechanism, you know, maybe that would save us time and resources of putting into some of these criminal investigations. I have a question.

[Unidentified Committee Member (female)]: So can you talk about how it I was just thinking about how difficult if there's difficulty in prosecuting these and stopping them from showing up. But can you talk about, I just I worry about. Like the women who are working there, I feel like they are also victims. I mean, I think that they they are the victims right in this situation, But they are also the ones who are technically committing a crime. Right? Well, it's like, where's the line between that? Because I feel like

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: it's kind of a dual criminality, right? They're committing a crime because they're being forced to commit a crime. And they are the victims of this, absolutely. And that's why we didn't want to that's why the way the system is set up now, it puts all the onus on the victim, and there really is nothing, on the business. And, you know, I'll give the example where we had gone to a a parlor and talked to the owner of it, and she was licensed. And she's like, no. I'm the only one that works here. Well, I went around back and encountered another worker who was there, and she did not I'm sorry. She was not registered. And when we told the owner about that, she's like, okay. I'll just get her registered. And that was it. There wasn't really no other recourse after that. So we're trying not to penalize the victims for the crimes that they're asked to commit. So, having another mechanism for that for the businesses, would be helpful.

[Unidentified Committee Member (female)]: K.

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: Thanks.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Anything else from the table?

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Or we have a pause in the Okay.

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: That's all I have. Thank you very much. Do you have any additional questions?

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: Could we get that slide done?

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Yes. Yeah. I'll follow it along, later on. No. Appreciate it. Yeah. So the I mean, finding a path to accountability for the business is a necessary tool. Yes. It'd be very helpful. Yeah.

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: One Just some so, yeah, finding a path for the to get the business to hold the business accountable, but is there a way to help these women that are being trafficked in the map or at the end of that? Where where do we is there anything we're doing to try to get these women out of this situation or help?

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: So we do provide them services when we do come in contact with them. The confinement to the industry is really hard for a lot of these women to break. So it's not an easy well, if you're just feeding this, then, you know, make everything better, and, we could put an end to this. I think if you gave them less of an option of where to work, especially in the state of Vermont, that would be one way that we could help these workers out. I

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: was wondering if there was a process in place besides limiting their places to work.

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: It's the same process as exists for most of the victims that we have for our crimes. Try to get them services, try to get them set up so that they have other options besides doing this type of work. Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member (female)]: But can you talk about then about the people who the men who frequent these establishments? Are there are they being charged with things? Are they being kept track of? Or is there a way to just thinking about if we one way to stop it from happening is to stop people from feeling like it's something accessible and permissible.

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: So we haven't done any we haven't had any successful prosecutions for these businesses, at least during my time. But one way to do that is to, you know, either get cooperation for these victims or to I'm sorry, for the people that frequent these businesses or to prosecute them for solicitation of prostitution.

[Unidentified Committee Member (female)]: And can you prosecute them for solicitation of prostitution without bringing charges against the women who are there? Just

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: Yeah, well, I think, State's Attorney Brown, Stephen Brown is going to testify afterward. It's probably

[Chair Matthew Birong]: a better legal question for him.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: Okay.

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: Rev Hooper. Two places of entry usually say are primarily legal or illegal?

[Detective Lieutenant Michael Steuben, Vermont State Police (BCI)]: A combination of both. I think, what happens is may they may come in legally and then they're overstays, so their visas have expired, or they may be coming in, illegally. I think there's probably a combination of the two. It depends if there you know, I I know that there have been investigations where legal status has not been an issue, and has never been pursued, because they are looked at as victims.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Any other questions for the Lieutenant? No? Thank you, sir. Thank you for your time. It's Journey. How are you?

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: Good morning. I'm good. First

[Chair Matthew Birong]: time here?

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: First time in government ops. Yes. Yes. Happy to be here.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: So, oh, the table is yours. All right.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: Yeah. Thank you. So, my name is Steve Brown. I am the Wyndham County State's Attorney. I've been a prosecutor for most of my career. I started in 2007, and I became state's attorney in 2024 when Tracy Shriver retired and was appointed to fill out the rest of her term. I have been involved in human trafficking cases in our county since, I think, a little after Mike took over, but I think Mike got me hooked in pretty soon after he, started his work, in this field. So, again, thank you for having me. This is a really important bill, and I think this bill will enhance public safety. I had some prepared remarks, but I think I wanted to address some of the great questions I heard this morning. We 100% looked at the women in these cases as victims, and my office was not prepared to charge any of these women for any of the conducts that they were engaged in. After hearing about living conditions and hearing about their life in these massage parlors, and you putting massage parlors in quotation marks, there's no way we would have charged them. The cases are extremely difficult in their current state to prosecute. They are a very costly endeavor. Hundreds of hours of investigative time goes into investigating these cases currently, and we don't have a good administrative hook to address the conduct that we are seeing. I think licensure provides a great level of protection to multiple parties. It protects the bonafide massage therapists who professionals who are out doing the work that we expect massage therapists to be doing. It protects clients who are arguably in their most vulnerable state when they are with a massage therapist. We want clients to be with professionals who are licensed, fed background checks, who have had minimal levels of education and qualifications to perform this work. I think this bill will also protect the women who are currently being trafficked, are being employed in these massage parlors. Without licensure, it allows virtually anybody to get the registration and to open up one of these facilities, and we know from our experience that they are very good at masking their business, and licensure will provide a great level of protection, and it will allow us to effectively enforce the law, which we really can't effectively enforce at this state. Could you just like on that piece, explain in a little bit more detail from your perspective how this gives you better capacity? Sure, sure. So, our aim when we investigate these businesses is to shut the business down if it's performing illicit, activities, right? That's our goal. And, right now we have no effective hook into the business. The individual, massage therapists may have their registration, but it doesn't allow us to address the organization, which is the business that's running, the operation. So that's the biggest issue, because that's our goal. And we have laws on the books, but we have to design our cases expecting that the women who we encounter when we execute a search warrant at one of these facilities are going to disappear. They they have no ties to Vermont, and, once law enforcement leaves the establishment, they often are gone, and we never see them again, and we're not charging them. We could charge them and keep them in Vermont, that is any main, and that is not something that my office was ever prepared to do. So we are left building a case, with, virtually no witnesses. We have the customers, but the customers don't know where the money is going. We can't follow the money trail with the customers alone. We know there's acts being performed, legal acts being performed in these facilities, and we know they're taking in money, but we don't have the ability to effectively attract that money through the establishment. This law will allow us to actually address the business enterprise, which we can't do currently.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: No, thank you for that clarity. And that was the way I really understood it in a little bit more of a nuanced level, but I wanted to get that out there on the record. Any questions at this point from the committee?

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: So I think one of the big questions the committee may have is, what is this going to cost the state? Are there cost concerns? And that's a fair question that you all should have on your mind. I would suggest that it'll be far more costly not having a licensure bill than it would be to have one. It will save money in the law enforcement side of things, it will protect people from being crime victims, and it will, I think, the customer experience, knowing that they are walking into a legitimate facility with professionals who've had background checks, who have passed the requisite requirements to be called a massage therapist. One of the things that I really liked about the bill when I read through it is the expansive definition that you all have included, and I think it's 54,014, the definition of massage. The definition is fantastic. I think it is very broad and it's all encompassing, and it would be difficult to try to escape the umbrella of what I think you're trying to regulate.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: I mean, I guess I kind of like leads in or actually almost answers one of my questions for you was, you find the words on the page that we're considering right now to be appropriate to do your job effectively. Or do you have other suggestions for us to consider to enhance your Sure, ability to

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: do so I'm a frontlines prosecutor. I have spent my entire career on the line, prosecuting cases. I am the first one to admit that my expertise is not bill drafting and writing legislation, but from what I read here, I think your law achieves the goals that we have and would give us an essential tool that is currently missing from our toolbox. So yes, the answer is yes. I think the law gets the job done.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay, I think that was a really close, We're not gonna go Nugent then Oregon. Was

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: very close.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: No. It was. I'm trying to, like, play this game fair right now. That was that was a tough call. Nugent. Thank you.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Just clarifying, are we talking about H588 or H623?

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: Understand we may be here under H588. I read both H623 and H568, because I think they're somewhat related, at least in my view. Yeah.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay. So I was working on woah. Woah. Woah. Then I was I was reading through five eighty eight because that's what we have on our agenda this morning.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Yeah. My understanding is that one has a registration process and not licensure, and 623 has the licensure.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Thank you for asking that question.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: Three has the licensure. Yes. That is correct. Yep.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay. So because I was looking at the definitions in May that we've set up for, like, the establishments. Yes. So okay. That pivots my question for the clarity. Yeah. Do we have that on our

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: June as you know? That's 06/23.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: A copy if anybody would like to Yeah.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: We don't have that on our I mean, I have a copy here somewhere.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Under Bill's.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I got a hard copy here somewhere. Yes. So we've been focusing on the language. It's $5.88 right now. I'm trying to consider components of the other proposal representing Casey. So we had five eighty eight discussion here. So I was just looking at I'm sorry to jump, Bill.

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: That's not

[Chair Matthew Birong]: No, that's alright. This is why I didn't know this is an important conversation.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: This is how we're doing this. You can become one.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Rep Morgan, feel free to

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: jump in with the so with this if we did some type of a licensure, would it allow us that might be a question for the lieutenant as well or both. Hate to use the term raid the facilities, but would it give us the ability to go in there and go, show us all your licensure, show us the legitimacy of your clients, I mean, excuse me, your employees, so to speak. Would we have that ability to reach in Yeah. And legitimize their businesses or not?

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: So, I think this is probably also a question for detective lieutenant student, but the bill, I think, would allow the regulators to go and check these facilities to make sure they are in compliance with their licensure. Yes, absolutely.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Which should, in theory, put somewhat of a pinch on them, I would think.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: Right, anybody who has walked into one of these illicit businesses knows almost immediately that this is not a legitimate business. It's obvious. And there's a lot of red flags. I mean, you've got people sleeping in one room, you've people not leaving the facility, you've got people, it's just, is very obvious.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Does it look like your traditional, as the pictures lieutenant use, it's not a traditional look?

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: It is not your spa at, you know, one of

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: the resorts it provides, that's for sure. There's a clear divide. Yes.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: That is an understatement. So

[Chair Matthew Birong]: I'm just gonna freestyle here for a second. So I have the so $5.80 is the bill we're working with.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Sure. We

[Chair Matthew Birong]: have here I just have, like, a breakdown from our council. So this is the section that I was looking at. So it's relatively mirrored to my understanding, but I wanted you to just put eyes on that. Well, and we have plenty of time for this, so please take your time and digest that.

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: Yeah. I was looking at 588, and all I could find was registry. And that's like the

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: would strongly urge the committee to adopt a licensure apparatus for massage therapists and not registration, which we currently have in place. I mean, there's a registration component currently, which is not effective at all.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Okay. And I'm running through this right now. I'm looking at the 623 while you're looking at the 588. Go ahead. Yeah, I'm seeing the difference.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: Yeah, I think 588 is a step in the right direction. It is a small step. I think 06/23 is a leap forward for the profession.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Taking some notes. So with a with a structure in there, speak to the, I guess, to this step, like your idea, like your your sentiments with that. Like, I understand that six twenty three is a much useful tool? So, I looked at six twenty three and I read through some of

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: the other professions that we regulate in Vermont with licensure. Many of the professions involve professionals touching another human being, okay, so nursing, dentistry, cosmetology. Why wouldn't we also want massage therapists who are working on you in a state of undress in a private room? Why wouldn't we want that person to be fully vetted, to have all of the qualifications that we expect that they have, and to have a background check? Because licensure allows the state to run a criminal background check on a person who's applying for a license. And we can all think of people that we don't want licensed as massage therapists with certain criminal convictions. And that doesn't currently exist now. The example that Detective Hooper gave would allow that person who was found in the back of the business to quickly go online, pay a registration fee, and be legitimate under state regulators. That's scary. Robert Hooper. So if the representation

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: of VSP is that a lot of these people are trafficked and background check. Well,

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: people potentially wouldn't even allow to be licensed because they wouldn't be able to show they have the qualifications to be a massage therapist under the law. So, I think the expectation is that with licensure, it would push people out of the business who are not legitimate, because they aren't able to have the qualifications to meet the minimal requirements to be licensed in the state, just like any other profession.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: No. I I I absolutely understand where you're coming from. I think I guess the next thing for us to do is just to have a conversation with secretary of state's OPR's office about what more could look like within the bill that we're moving. Sure. For this conversation is the five eighty eight. Yeah.

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: I'm confident. What I see is I the licensure because then each massage therapist would have to be licensed. Business would have to be licensed. Correct. So if one of these illegitimate businesses starts, they get licensed, and then they bring in unrigging, you know, once massage therapists that aren't licensed, How do we enforce that if we're like, oh, well, this is a legitimate business they license? The investigation side of it needs to

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: be enforced. Well, there would be there would be administrative remedies against the business for for allowing an unlicensed therapist to work within the umbrella of the business.

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: Right, but how do we get to that to make sure that everyone in that building is licensed without investigation?

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: So I think there would still be investigations, but the investigations would be a lot less complex. So perhaps it could just be a customer made a report, they're able to then investigate and we have what we need versus months and months of undercover work and surveillance and details and subpoenas and search warrants. Think it's a much more, it's a much easier path to remedy than what we currently have. Okay, yeah, I just Yeah, it's a great question. It's a great question.

[Rep. Robert Hooper]: I wanna make sure that we have the enforcement ability.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: The enforcement ability is laid out in 06/23.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Okay, understood.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: Do we have any other questions right now for her state's attorney and or state police?

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Okay. So.

[Unidentified Committee Member (female)]: Thank you.

[Stephen (Steve) Brown, Windham County State’s Attorney]: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[Chair Matthew Birong]: No, that was a dark

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: but important slug of testimony. So,

[Chair Matthew Birong]: appreciate the education and the realities. All right, committee, we got twelve minutes for our next order of business. So, Nick, take us off until we reconvene eight forty one, animal welfare.