Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: Alright, we're live. Alright, thank you for your patience on that little time out. So now we're going to start picking back work, picking back up work on $5.88, which is our OPR bill. And we have some testimony coming in today, around the conversation on the, massage therapist licensure. I'd like to start with that. And we do have someone joining us remotely. So, I want to start there. And we have representative, I'm just going get my list here. Henry Banks, are you there, Henry?

[Henry Banks]: I sure am. Yeah. I'm ready to go whenever you'll have me.

[Speaker 0]: The the table is yours. Please go ahead.

[Henry Banks]: Alright. Firstly, good morning. As you said, my name is Henry Banks. I wanted to thank you all for the opportunity to submit testimony on h five eighty eight. I am a cofounder and codirector of the Astar Collective, which works to promote public health and safety and evidence based policies that protect sex workers and survivors of trafficking. We also provide direct services, helping people to leave exploitative situations and help with emergency housing, food, medical care, other basic necessities. Because individuals are vulnerable to exploitation when essential needs needs go unmet. While this legislation focuses on licensing for massage therapists and massage establishments, Many of the discussions around licensing are driven by concerns around human trafficking. It is important that policy decisions reflect the realities of trafficking and are grounded in evidence to avoid unintentionally harming workers or communities. And that's where my 2¢ can, I hope, lend its hand? Human trafficking is a serious crime involving force, fraud, or coercion for the purpose of exploitation. Vermont already has strong anti trafficking laws that provide law enforcement with the tools needed to investigate and prosecute traffickers. Research and experience nationally show that additional criminalization of unlicensed massage work does not reduce trafficking and can, in fact, worsen conditions for those vulnerable workers caught in the crossfire. When enforcement efforts target workplaces, immigrant communities, or unlicensed businesses under the guise of anti trafficking, Workers who are not trafficked may face arrest, deportation, or loss of livelihood. Fear of criminalization discourages victims from seeking help and erodes trust in institutions, pushing workers into more isolated and unsafe conditions. Asian and migrant massage workers in particular experience racialized gender policing, which can amplify harm rather increase safety. And the enforcement mechanism here appears to be criminality, which is where the danger lies. We do wanna be clear that we support massage therapists who wish to obtain licensure. Absolutely. Licensing can be a positive tool when implemented with accessible requirements, training, support, and protections for workers who face barriers such as cost, language barriers, documentation status, or other challenges. Our concern is ensuring that any licensing system does not rely on punitive enforcement or criminalization, which can undermine the safety of the communities it is intended to protect. So trafficking is most effectively addressed through prevention and protection for survivors. Rights based strategies that we're fond of include the expansion of access to safe and fair labor opportunities, affordable housing and health care, providing culturally competent outreach, language access, and immigration support, strengthening labor protections and access to resources for the most vulnerable workers, guaranteeing the protections and rights of individuals who have been trafficked, and encouraging survivor leadership in efforts to combat trafficking. We do encourage the committee to ensure that any licensing or enforcement provisions support worker safety and economic opportunity while avoiding unnecessary criminalization. By centering worker protections and support for vulnerable individuals, Vermont can more effectively address trafficking and support trained massage professionals. I wanted to thank you for your time and consideration on this matter. That is all. Do I have any questions?

[Speaker 0]: So I would phrase you use just shortly ago is to try and prevent criminalizing practices. Could you repeat that again for me? I was having a problem with my computer pulling up here to read the testimony.

[Henry Banks]: Sure, do you want me to just read the last paragraph one more time?

[Speaker 0]: Yes, please, one more time. That'd be very helpful.

[Henry Banks]: Absolutely, yeah. So the more systemic trafficking or anti trafficking approaches that, you know, we might encourage would be to expand things like access to safe and fair labor opportunities, affordable housing, and health care. We know that people turn to more shadowed, sex of labor when barriers are up to mainstream labor. We want to see provisions culture, like, providing culturally competent outreach, so addressing maybe language access barriers and immigration support, strengthening labor protections for those workers themselves and access to resources for the most vulnerable workers. Again, this is more, you know, when we talk about policy, what systemic changes we could make, guaranteeing protections for individuals who've been trafficked, and encouraging survivor leadership in the decisions around the anti trafficking measures in an effort to combat trafficking. Because we do know that folks with lived in lived experience have a unique kind of wisdom to these matters that may be outside stakeholders or those of us with more academic or peripheral understandings might have. Did that did that sound familiar?

[Speaker 0]: Yes.

[Unidentified massage therapist (licensed in Hawaii)]: To what you would

[Henry Banks]: okay. Perfect.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. No. No. No. And again, I was just having, a little bit of a computer moment. So I wanna make sure I fully understood that last part. So Yeah. And any questions from the table? Any of our members? No. Okay. No. And I'll review the written testimony later, once I start going over this as a review, again. But thank you for your time, and, we'll definitely circle back if we have more questions for you.

[Henry Banks]: Gorgeous, I am absolutely available. Thank you so much for your time.

[Speaker 0]: No, it's appreciated. And let's see. Who do like to go with next?

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: There are some people who are testifying not, related to the session updates if you want to continue to search that would be conversation others who refer to as well. Okay.

[Speaker 0]: Well, I guess we could go over to the CPA portion, if we want to go into that portion of the conversation.

[Sadie Fischesser]: Riel again.

[Speaker 0]: Good to see you.

[Sadie Fischesser]: Good to see you. I'm Sadie Fischesser. I'm the executive director of the Vermont Society of CPAs. Great to see you all again. Thank you for having us back. We're talking today about the possibility of joining h seven zero seven into folding it into h five eighty eight, the OPR bill. Right now, we are in conversations with OPR about that. All parties seem amenable. We are doing some wordsmithing that I think we'll continue to work on. And hopefully, we'll have that finalized and be able to move it over. Just as a reminder, the portion that we're interested in is related to opening up an additional licensing pathway for certified public accountants in the state of Vermont. As I sort of alluded to last time, there is a great shortage of accountants, not just in the country, but also in Vermont. And this is one way that we're hoping that we can address that shortage by not taking away anything that currently exists, but by adding an additional pathway for people who get a BA in accounting with an accounting focus and have two years of experience that they would demonstrate. We think this is a strong way to address that concern while maintaining high quality. All three pathways would continue to include this passage of the CPA uniform exam that's administered nationally. It's a good way for us to keep the public trust and at the same time make the profession more accessible. The other piece that I mentioned last time is this does remove a potential financial barrier for people who have the BA and then have to get an additional thirty hours in any subject area. So it could be unrelated to accounting, but they still have to get thirty additional academic hours, which can be a financial barrier. And, just a reminder, this is part of a national movement. So there have been over 23 states have already passed similar legislation. And the other concern is that as we move forward together, especially in our region, other New England states, some have already passed this legislation. New York has already passed it. So we wanna make sure that we are making it, equivalent here so that we don't lose people to our neighboring states, but also to make it easy for them to work across the border and serve their clients and the public as they do.

[Speaker 0]: Okay. And so, I'm happy to hear that you're refining the proposal with the Secretary of State's office, OPR specifically. Can you give us a sense of the direction that's heading in, for our own sort of base of

[Sadie Fischesser]: Yes. And we are literally talking There are three places in the legislation where we use the term substantial equivalency. OPR is interested in retaining that language. We're very open to that. We had changed it, I think, to comparable in H-seven zero seven. There was a piece where there's some repetitive language that they suggested we remove. We're amenable to that change. It does not change the content. It actually makes it more flexible if there were changes further down the line, that we can make those changes in admin rules versus having to reopen the statute. Mostly Those And are mostly the areas that we're working with them on. But again, we don't I think we're all in strong consensus, around the major points of the legislation, they're open to having it come as an amendment.

[Speaker 0]: All right. Well, thank you for helping us stay in front of that as a committee, so it's always very helpful for us when the, whatever entity that we're trying to work with within government, then like yourself in the real world, can you collaborate and find an agreeable language structure that makes our lives a bit smoother? So thank you. Hope

[Sadie Fischesser]: so. Yes. Thank you.

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: We also have Alex. Can you hear me with us? It's good. How are you, Alex?

[Alex Smith, CPA]: I'm doing alright. How are you?

[Speaker 0]: I'm well, sir. Welcome.

[Alex Smith, CPA]: Thank you. Thanks. I'm Alex Smith. Not a Vermont native, but I did graduate from Norwich University and then I started working at Fothergales Gallon Valley, just down the road from here as an accountant. I recently passed and received my CPA licensure as of September 2025. Quite frankly, I'm the only one out of my class, both the class after me and the class before me. So, out of the last three years at Norwich, I'm the only one to have gotten my CPA license. And the big the greatest barrier to that was absolutely, the credits requirement. My senior year at Norwich cost $62,000, So adding a whole another year for that, most people my age, we either can't afford it or we don't find a good reason for it, especially when all we see as an accountant is, hey, you're gonna go up, you're gonna pull fifty, sixty, seventy hours a couple months of the year, and then you'll work still mostly full time for the rest of the year for reasonable salary, but nonetheless, it's right now the accounting profession itself isn't too attractive, and then pushing for licensure both as an accounting practice and the financial costs surrounding it is not anything attractive to anyone my age, but life would be a lot easier with having that second year of experience because I think it depends on a per student, per person basis. Some people find a lot they learn a lot more academically, but I also see a lot more real learning, real education out of the actual work practice, just grinding out tax returns, grinding out an audit, making those real mistakes, and having someone who's done it for decades right behind you, making sure that, yeah, this is the right thing to do, this is the wrong thing to do, make sure you look into it. And so, I would say, going into my third year, I learned quite a bit more from the experience side than from the additional 30 credits, of which not all 30 are even accounting related. So that's definitely what I want to push for this flexibility for the CPA position. I think there's quite a bit more in terms of accounting shortage that needs to be discussed, but I think that's going be a lengthier conversation.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah. We got a little time right now. Do you mean? No. I'm just curious with that tee up.

[Alex Smith, CPA]: Yeah. So, I mean so when, people my age, people think accountant, they they're like, oh, what does an accountant do? Oh, they balance out books. Oh, how much does an accountant make? If you Google accounting, they're going to be like $45,000 a year or something like that. Something really low because it includes like part time bookkeepers, includes AP people. It doesn't really include what partners make at large firms or even smaller firms. And so it's just seen as a boring job that doesn't make that much. And you have to get all these additional, all this additional experience and education in with it. And there needs to be a huge restructure of that understanding. Like, without accountants, without proper accounting, you have another Enron. Without proper accounting, you have another 2,008. So then the entire United States economic structure is balanced, quite literally, based on accounting. And there needs to be an understanding that the world that the financial world that we work with is based on proper accounting, proper we can't fund anything in here without accountants making sure that state taxes are properly accumulated. We can't give out the grants that we need in the state for proper health, for proper health care, any sort of receivables that we desperately need in quite a few places, even down to property taxes. The education system can't really work without it, and we're kind of faced with this kind of point of friction here where three quarters of CPAs are going be gone in the next five to ten years due to retirement and so there's just a larger idea, larger picture that we need to get CPAs in or people willing to become CPAs soon.

[Speaker 0]: No. Thank you, Ed. No. That was really good as to why and I really respect the Edron reference as someone who has made more than one Arthur Andersen quip in this over time when funny conversations get a little weird. No. I thank you for that because it is that historical components that he does to these very economic movements that are because of flawed accounts of practices. So, no, I really appreciate that perspective.

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: Yes, Israel. I agree. I think that not all students, or not all people in any trade, you can learn by book. Think hands on, being mentored by somebody and learning is an option. I think that should be, I mean, have journeymen for electricians and journeymen for plumbers. Why not have journeymen for all other sources? So, I think it's a great idea to have an alternative instead of just book.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Thank you. My dad was an accountant, and I just, maybe I'm a little off

[Heather Chapnick (President, AMTA Vermont Chapter)]: the bus, but I

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: also think we better get here at this at some point soon, because the accountants don't leave their offices between February 1 and April 16. So it's nice of you to be here. But I do have a couple of questions. And my first is, can you talk about, first, you mentioned that there are classes that you take in that year, that second year or whatever it is, that aren't accounting related. So I was wondering, or is that what you said, they weren't?

[Alex Smith, CPA]: Yeah, so I think it's, I believe it's a requirement of 24 out of the 30. My situation was a bit different. So I had AP credits, I took classes during the middle of the year, and then I also just got my general bachelor's in accounting. I just had quite a few other credits that I've accumulated. My other degree is financial economics. So with those two bachelor's, I ended up at right around 150.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Okay. Right. But you're not having to take basket weaving or something? No,

[Speaker 0]: no, it's

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: not accounting related.

[Alex Smith, CPA]: If you walk into a master's in accounting anywhere, if the class isn't specifically accounting related, it is some sort of basic understanding of financial understanding, maybe project management, maybe general business management or financial economics sort of course. So, when I was touring Masters, taking a look at Master's programs everywhere, everything had some sort of financial backing to it or if not direct leadership in the financial area. So, like, Oh, you can just take six credits of gym with it.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: No, it

[Alex Smith, CPA]: was all directed.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: And then my other question is, can you talk a little bit if you can't understand, can you talk a little bit about maybe some things that one would learn in the workplace environment that you couldn't really learn or that would be more difficult to learn in a classroom setting and maybe vice versa? Like what might you learn in a classroom that you would be, if anything, you would be missing out on just in a working as an accountant or working with an accountant?

[Alex Smith, CPA]: Yeah, absolutely. So in the classroom setting, it's really you're taking the introductory step. My first tax class and only tax specific class for individuals, it was walking through the ten forty. It was walking through step by step, line by line, what goes into a ten forty, what kind of makes those adjustments. But when you walk into the real world, now we have to take into consideration, well, even just now is Section 1A that just popped out with the IRS. You need to understand that program intuitively and you also need to understand what the communication you need with clients. That one's very heavy. It is, okay, this is what the form says. I just popped in a bunch of numbers. I popped in your interest statement and your W-two, and this is what the form says, but then you're kind of looking at it and it's not quite right. You can notice that, Oh, for some reason this state didn't withhold your taxes at a proper rate on the W-two. Oh, this group, their W-2s were actually incorrect. They accounted for your S Corp health insurance on your Social Security and Medicare. But if you don't know, you can just see a W-two and assume that's fine, whereas there are mistakes and not just both not just on your side, but what on your receive that you need to intuitively understand. Like, I remember my first year, I got so many documents sent back to me because on those little 40 pages of ten ninety nines on your brokerage statements, there's 13 there's one or two pages with one or two numbers that are really hidden. They're actually like, oh, this is a non taxable item and it saves people thousands of dollars, where if I was just listening in on a class, they're gonna be like, okay, yeah, interest, this is treated like this. Dividends, this is treated like this. But when you're with them in person, they're like, okay, this statement's coming to you. We need to look out for this very specific item because the broker's statement isn't gonna visibly tell anyone that they're not going to go in-depth with explaining it to you, and that can go across almost every form. We have experienced professionals that know what's right and then actively learning what's right, at least forty hours a year, education. Whereas, we have a lot of professors that understand the concept of taxes and audits, they probably did it in the past, but every year changes. And those professionals know what changes every year. Those professionals can tell you what to work on every year and what to look out for. Whereas some whereas the professors are getting they're just getting a new book, and there's like, okay. We're we're learning this now. Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Anything else, Ross? No. Thank you for that. That was great. Very helpful. So, think that takes care of the CPA portion of the conversation. So, for our next guests who are all coming in on the, SARS Therapy conversation, I guess why don't we start with our guests on Zoom? Going into order, I guess we'll start with Laura Marley. Hi, Laura.

[Laura Morley]: Hi. Thank you for having me. Yes. I'm coming to you from down in North Bennington.

[Speaker 0]: Well, welcome. Saved you the drive. Gotta love the technology.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: I would

[Laura Morley]: love to have been there in person, but alas, I have class soon. So I'm just gonna go ahead and read my testimony. I also submitted that via email.

[Speaker 0]: Yes. Thank you. Is on our site.

[Laura Morley]: Thank you. My name is Laura Morley. I've been a massage therapist since 2000. I was educated and licensed in the state of Florida. I held my license in Florida for eight years before returning to live in the Northeast. I currently have a practice in North Bennington, and I teach a massage therapy program in Bennington that I created two years ago. I am very much in support of licensing massage therapists. Since there are no standards of education whatsoever in Vermont, I have modeled my massage therapy program after the national minimum of educational hours, which is five hundred hours. That's so my students can sit for the M BLACS, that's the massage and bodywork licensing examination, even though that is not required in our state. My students are deeply immersed in anatomy, physiology, and pathology, as it is imperative that a massage therapist know the important structures, functions, and diseases in the body to avoid endangering their clients. We often encounter pathologies that would need adjustments to the therapy we're providing or at times massage must be avoided entirely. Bottom line, we need standards of education for massage therapists. It's irresponsible that Vermont is one of the only states left to not require licensing for massage therapists. Massage therapists are part of the continuum of healthcare in Vermont. In Florida, we were regulated by the Department of Health. They adopted licensure in 1990 in Florida. I was always proud that my license looked just like my mother's because we were both governed by the Department of Health and my mother was a critical care nurse. If it's OPR's job to protect the public, they are not fulfilling their role. Related to ensuring that massage therapists are properly trained and doing all they can to prevent sex traffickers from operating in the name of massage therapists and massage therapy establishments. This can only happen with licensure. Things I have experienced working in a state without licensure. In 2012, the FBI raided two illegitimate businesses using massage therapy as a front for prostitution right on our main street in Bennington. Unfortunately, those raids did not result in arrests and those businesses are still open today. At the time, I spoke to County Attorney Erica Marthage and asked if massage therapists were licensed in Vermont, would that have helped with prosecuting these individuals? And she responded without hesitation, yes. Other things I have experienced. We are a big state for second homes. I am constantly fielding calls from clients who reside in other states and they're here on vacation. When I can't get them an appointment, I offer a referral to another reputable therapist. I quickly explained that they wouldn't wanna just find a therapist via Google as we are not licensed in Vermont and have no standards of education. The general public doesn't know this. They assume we have some sort of credentialing and are shocked and nervous when I share this information to them. These people are coming from states where massage therapists are licensed. Bottom line, massage therapy is health care. That's not an opinion. It's a fact. We're muscle therapists, and Vermont should be licensing us to establish standards of education, establish a scope of practice for us, and require continuing education to stay up with changes in our field. Thank you. That's everything I had to say, but I'm happy to answer any questions.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. Represent Waters Evans.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Well, aside from, of course, the the horrible things that go on in in these illegitimate establishments as far as, like, you know, the victims of trafficking and all this stuff. But I'm also wondering if do you think there's an economic impact on your business because of those establishments existing in the lack of licensure?

[Laura Morley]: It does make people nervous when they see that prostitution is being done in the name of massage therapy and then wonder about other massage therapists. It's shame that we are used as a front for prostitution. Obviously, the fields are very different, but that's been an easy use, especially in Vermont. And as we're surrounded by states that are licensed, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, and Canada all require licensing. I do believe it's an easy setup for someone who has the wrong intentions to be able to quickly call themselves a massage therapist. Any one of you in the room could call themselves a massage therapist today. So it makes it easy for someone with ill intentions to set up a practice. Has it affected me economically? No, I don't believe so. But there's other reasons other than money to have licensing.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Thank

[Heather Chapnick (President, AMTA Vermont Chapter)]: you.

[Speaker 0]: Any other questions? No. Thank you very much. And feel free to stay with us while we continue this conversation in case anything else pops up.

[Laura Morley]: I wish I could. Unfortunately, I do have to get to class since I'm the teacher. Then

[Speaker 0]: go on. I just wanted to extend the invitation to Thank hang

[Laura Morley]: so much. I'm so grateful to have been here today. I did testify in front of OPR in 2015, but unfortunately it still didn't get us anywhere. I will always stand up for my profession. Thank you so much.

[Speaker 0]: Oh, thank you. And now also on Zoom. Laura, how are you?

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: She's gonna show us for a background.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah, looks like somebody is in a much lower corner.

[Unidentified participant]: Hello. How are you?

[Speaker 0]: How's the weather?

[Unidentified massage therapist (licensed in Hawaii)]: Thank you for the opportunity to testify in support of licensure of massage therapy for Vermont. I have been licensed in the state of Hawaii since 1981. And I don't don't support the provision, the OPR bill, I support the establishment and individual massage therapy language in the H six twenty three. I have training in Hawaiian lomi lomi, sport massage. We had world class teachers because of the Ironman Triathlon, Swedish, Esalen, Pohaku, hot stone therapy. I'm a trigger instructor, lymphatic drainage, etcetera. I continue to take classes. I moved to Vermont in 2014 and was shocked to learn that there were no requirements for opening a massage business. None. Anyone with absolutely no training can hang up a sign and say they do it. Having practiced massage, being appropriately educated and trained, I can tell you it is totally absurd and incomprehensible to me that Vermont, unlike the 45 other states in the nation, does not license therapists. It is 100% a public safety issue for the health and well-being of clients, as well as the protection of the public against illicit activities. Registration has just been taking my money and giving me nothing in return. The public now assumes that massage therapists are qualified, vetted, because they can post a piece of paper from the state for just applying. This is craziness. As an analogy, I know that when a licensed plumber comes to my home, I feel personally safe having a stranger come into my home who I do not know. Why do I feel safe? Because I know that they're licensed. I know they are qualified to do a competent job, and I know that they will be held accountable if they engage in unethical behavior. Finally, I ask that you listen to the vast majority of the members of our profession, as well as the vast majority of other states and support licensure of massage therapists and establishments. Thank you from I happen to be in Hawaii for the birth of two grandbabies right now.

[Speaker 0]: Congratulations. Thank you. And

[Unidentified massage therapist (licensed in Hawaii)]: I still practice here.

[Speaker 0]: Amazing. I was more focused fixated on the grandbabies. So have they arrived yet or are you still waiting?

[Unidentified massage therapist (licensed in Hawaii)]: One has arrived and one is due in two weeks.

[Speaker 0]: All right. Well, congratulations on both of those. So, mean, I understand your point of view on the like the licensure for the confidence that it provides for like the public and also for the same structural safeguards that I can apply to it. So I very much appreciate that point. That's the conversation the committee is wrestling with right now is like, we have the proposal of one bill, but we have this other bill that is an extension of conversations that we had last session. That's the depth that we go at this stage is the choice that we really have to hone in right now as a committee. So I really appreciate your professional perspective on that. Any questions for our guests from Hawaii or in Hawaii? No, thank you for your time and your testimony. We will, as we work on this, if we need anything else from you, we'll definitely reach out.

[Unidentified massage therapist (licensed in Hawaii)]: I'm happy to answer any questions.

[Speaker 0]: Well, if you feel like hanging out with us for a little while while we have one more guest with us, please feel free in case anything comes to mind for you.

[Unidentified massage therapist (licensed in Hawaii)]: Thank you.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you. And that's who's over to Heather Cheadle. How are you?

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: Hi, How are you doing? I'm doing alright.

[Heather Chapnick (President, AMTA Vermont Chapter)]: Thank you for having us here today. So, my name is Heather Chapnick. I'm the president of the Vermont Chapter of the American Massage Therapy Association. I'm a board certified massage therapist for the National Certification Board for Therapeutic Massage and Bodywork. Who's been practicing for almost twenty years and currently running my own business. I'm going to speak to the need for massage therapy licensure as part of the continuum of care in the world of healthcare. There are other there are others from law enforcement and the prosecution community who are interested in testifying and are more well versed in criminal justice than I am. So I'll leave it to them. In my mind, there is no question that the state of Vermont needs to needs licensure, not registration, of massage therapists and massage therapy establishments. H five eighty eight contains a provision that requires registration of establishments. We are in support of licensure of establishments and individuals, and that is in the language in H six twenty three. Vermonters are increasingly seeking massage therapy for healthcare reasons. They're coming to our practices with a variety of complex health conditions and trauma. They often turn to us as muscle specialists who help them when other methods seem too invasive or when other medical treatments have failed. It's imperative for massage therapists to be held to an educational standard to learn the skills to practice massage safely and the contraindications so as to not harm clients. It is essential for health excuse me. It is essential for the health and safety of Vermonters. Massage therapists work alongside physicians and physical therapists, chiropractors, acupuncturists, and other health care professionals. Some of us work in hospitals and some work with children. We are seeing as part of one's healthcare team, yet all of the other qualified professionals in this team are licensed with the exception of massage therapists. Vermont's current massage Vermont's current massage registration requires zero regulation or requirements of professionalism for our industry. Yes. OPR has investigated some horrible cases, but they wait until bad things happen rather than go ahead to get ahead of the situation by requiring standards for how we practice massage therapy in the state. And that also begs the question, how many bad things have to happen before it is determined that there is a danger to the public? How many people have to get hurt before OPR can see that they should license massage therapists? How many trafficking cases do we have to have in Vermont before we can say enough is enough? We wait until someone is seriously hurt because somebody who simply calls themselves a massage therapist that has no education or training hurts someone because they have no clue what they are doing. Vermonters deserve better. They should be protected by the state entity that is charged with ensuring that professionals meet meet state requirements. They must there must be a standard of education, training, liability insurance, background checks, and ethics before someone can call them a massage therapist in our state. Let me leave you with these questions. Would you want your massage therapist to be licensed, educated, trained, have liability insurance, and pack pass a background check? Do you believe that licensure will protect the public? I hope you can join me in answering yes. Thanks for your time. And I'm happy to take any questions.

[Speaker 0]: Any questions, rather? Pretty straightforward.

[Alex Smith, CPA]: Yes.

[Speaker 0]: No, and I mean, I don't want to be like duplicative with my comments, but all of the points and cases you're making are definitely compelling. So, thank you. And we're going to keep working on this bill in the next two, three weeks. So, the discussions that are around its various components, including this are going over. We just wanted to have you folks come in and speak to us very bluntly and directly about the as to why.

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: I'll give you the blunt answers. This

[Speaker 0]: committee really respects blunt and direct. Point of comfort for you. Alright.

[Heather Chapnick (President, AMTA Vermont Chapter)]: Well, thank you, guys.

[Speaker 0]: Alright. Well, thank you. And I got a couple of different things that we need to hone in on this bill. So I will have a conversation when we break about that, start communicating with various folks to get that organized. And so the last thing we have on our agenda, we did as per the earlier parts of the day, we're ahead of schedule. So if we're prepared as a committee, we could probably have this conversation about Budget Buddies since the BAA is moving and we're going start looking at the big bill soon. So, like something we like to do earlier?

[Heather Chapnick (President, AMTA Vermont Chapter)]: It has to be adopted.

[Speaker 0]: Has to be adopted as an amended edict. Oh, I thought you were talking about like amending the agenda.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Real good. I

[Speaker 0]: got stuck in a city council format there, I

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: think we can go straight to Budget Buddies. We're ready.

[Speaker 0]: All right.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: I mean, I shouldn't speak

[Heather Chapnick (President, AMTA Vermont Chapter)]: for Rep Hango. Rep Hango,

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: are you ready? You're driving the Budget Buddies shift. I'm ready. Okay.

[Speaker 0]: All right.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Who's your assistant?

[Speaker 0]: Even the she, was he now?

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Yes, so no. You're ready

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: to spread your wings and fly on your

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: own now.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: So Nick, can I ask you a question? Did you happen to email this latest spreadsheet from Autumn to everyone or not? Okay. So you'll be getting this in your inbox. But here is a paper copy for folks. There is another copy from the bulletin board that we can refer to.

[Speaker 0]: I thought that was a bill sign in sheet the

[Alex Smith, CPA]: other day when I watch it.

[Speaker 0]: I was like, wow, somebody's being a little raisin. So

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: we had a little bit of a tough time last year figuring out exactly with the committee's jurisdiction splitting up exactly what this committee had jurisdiction over when agencies and organizations come to us with budget requests. We did some research into it this year, and I think this is pretty comprehensive. We tried to take some of what you were responsible for last year and give you similar areas of jurisdiction. In some cases, that wasn't possible. But we think we've covered everything. So what you have on this sheet is the section number in the budget. This is the big bill, not the BAA, but the big bill that's gonna be coming. The section, which department or agency or organization is responsible for making the budget request to us. And we are hoping, if anybody is watching, that everybody does make a formal request to us in writing, to our committee assistant, Nick, who's going to share it with us. And then the category of the budget that we're in, and who on the House Appropriations Committee is your budget by, and then finally, who from this committee is the policy liaison? So if anybody has any issues over what you have been assigned, and we did try to thoughtfully assign folks to these jurisdictions, Please see us sooner rather than later, but we've shared this with the committee assistance in House of Probes. And so, should be on the same page that if a budget request comes in for libraries, Bob Hooper is going to need to go see Lynn Dickinson about it if there are questions. And we will use the information that we get to build our big budget letter, which we send to House Approach and say, we have heard from all of these agencies and departments and organizations, and yes, we agree with their request, no, we don't agree, or we would like to amend it in a different way. Sound good?

[Speaker 0]: Well, first and foremost, thank you for where it goes, because this is a far more refined list than last time. Well, we were kind of, you know, the first, the first year of the biennium, with a lot of us new to the committee and then also new to the positions within the committee, we wound up going down a couple of rabbit holes that we didn't need to. Missed a couple. And I'm very, very much appreciative of your work and Rutland Waters Evans. And Rutland Waters Evans work. And so work with our former committee assistant who is now in the preparations committee to help refine this for us as well for functional format. Right. I just wanted to say that on the record.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Thank you. Autumn was a great help. So if anybody has direct conversations with any of these agencies or departments or organizations, please let them know that we're expecting a letter and a request to come in to testify. We're not really gonna go after them to say, hey, how much money do you want in this year's budget? They need to come to us and we're hoping that they all do.

[Speaker 0]: Appropriations people? The The agency.

[Heather Chapnick (President, AMTA Vermont Chapter)]: Yeah, yeah.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: For instance, we've gotten a letter from various agencies already, like public safety. We've gotten something from the ethics.

[Speaker 0]: So is that what you like us judge the greatest commissioners

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: and secretaries? If you have a conversation, like for instance, if you go to the governor's coffee hour and you see somebody from the agency of administration, you happen to be there. It's not your policy area. Budget more is happen to be there. You could say, hey, Commissioner, our committee is starting to look at budget letters. Do you have one for us? Or are you going to one for us this year? Please schedule that with our committee assistant. I'm just going to send them a

[Speaker 0]: note. You

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: do not have to do that, but if you would like to go the extra step, you're more than welcome.

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: I'll be forward leaning to that.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Great.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Any other questions?

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: Rep. Pinsonault. Who would I be looking for, for the Agency of Education Pre K to 12?

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: That's a really good question. You don't necessarily have to go looking for that. No, if I see somebody in the hallway, mean, that a day, why would The agency is so big, I would check with the Ed Committee.

[Speaker 0]: Or Rembaroike, who has the contact in Appropriations. I think the contact in Appropriations would be a good first stop at poking

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: I don't even know who he is.

[Speaker 0]: He's a long standing former member of this committee, actually. And

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: you could even go down and see him in Room 9 and just say, hey, who do you deal with at the AOE in this section of the budget? That was a good question, actually. Very good.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah, but I think utilizing the budget buddies down there for points of contact cases is probably a good person to go that way instead. Go to them first, then see who they recommend you reach out to because they know the ones who are like the

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Yeah, yeah.

[Speaker 0]: What eConversationalists. Okay.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: And my understanding is now that they have passed the BAA out, they are immediately taking testimony starting today or yesterday on the actual budget.

[Rep. Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault]: Rep Nation? And apologies if

[Unidentified participant]: you already said this, but is there a format or any particular points you

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: want people to hit on in their letter?

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Good question. A while ago, I may have shared with the committee and I will do it again a couple of documents that house appropriations built these two documents, questions to ask in the budget process. And I will share those again, because they really want answers this year as to whether it's necessary or not to consider these funding requests or position requests. Touching on anything new or face. Do or change, slightly change, maybe an increase in some part of their budget. Any other questions?

[Speaker 0]: No. All right. So we all have different bills that we have in motion right now. So before we get to the floor, just utilize some time to start honing into that stuff because we gotta although it is still January, it's not gonna be January long, and the clock is gonna be getting and faster and faster. It's gonna get some faster.

[Unidentified participant]: Like that scene in Willy Wonka?

[Speaker 0]: Kinda. Oh, good good good. That's good pull first. Okay. So, we're just gonna, like, work on our sections of portfolio on active bills until the floor. So as far as formal committee work is going on at the moment, we are gonna go offline. We are fifth