Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Committee staff/AV technician]: We are live.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Alright. Welcome back, everyone. A little after 01:45 on Tuesday. Next order of business is hearing from our friends and the folks who operate the Vermont Veterans Home for an update on how things are going at the facility. We are joined by Melissa Jackson and Steve McLapperty. Good to see the two of you.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Good afternoon. Good to see all of you.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: And yeah, welcome. We have the update for us to view here. Yeah, tell us how things are going.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Okay. I can So walk you through the PowerPoints. Okay.

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Oh, please.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: All right. So starting on slide two, just reminding everybody of who we are and why we're here. It all starts with a promise. Take care of those who have served our country. It also fulfills the governor's, one of the governor's aims of taking care of Vermont's most vulnerable. We refer to ourselves as a home and not an institution. The staff is very tired of me reminding them that we work where our veterans and members live. They do not live where we work. That makes all the difference. So we've been around since 1884. We started as a working farm, which is on Slide 4, and we are governed by a board of trustees. Two of our members are members of your committee, Sandy and Bob. So our home started as a summer home for Treinor Park, and our first resident was admitted in 1887, and at that time they were called inmates. And we have our records all the way back to our first veteran, and we actually do a lot of genealogy every year. It's interesting. People call and say, Hey, I'm doing genealogy on such and such. And a little interesting tidbit is we still have our jail out back, and we have our matrons book. So it's fun when having a we think we're having a tough day, we'll crack up the matrons book where they'll talk about a veteran coming back drunk again and having to be locked up or somebody of importance visiting. As part of the two fifty celebration, we're going to start pulling the good things out of that book and sharing it on our Facebook page. Slide five is really important. A lot of people don't understand what is a state veterans home. So a state veterans home is a facility, a nursing home, or domiciliary, we call it the dom because no one can say domiciliary, or an adult day center that is owned and operated and managed by state governments. So a DOM is the same as a residential care level three if you're talking to somebody from AHS or Dale. We are not part of the VA. Everyone thinks because of the word veteran is in our name, we're part of the VA. As a state veterans home, we receive funding that other nursing homes do not receive. We also provides us access to funding for grant projects for repairs and building that other nursing homes would not receive. Slide six talks about who we are today. We take care of veterans, spouses,

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: and Gold Star parents. Right now, federal regulations

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: do not allow us to take care of members of the National Guard unless they have been federally activated, or what we refer to as Title 10. Most of Vermont National Guard members have been federally activated, so they are eligible for our services if they should need them. Unfortunately, the question has come up a lot lately, what about children? We do not and aren't able to take care of children of veterans, and we are not able to take care of deforestays of veterans. So we have 130 skilled nursing beds. Right now, our maximum census can be 99. We have a wing or a neighborhood, as we call it, of 30 beds offline. This wing is offline due to the fact that it needs extensive repairs. We've had design work done. We will be speaking with institutions and BGS about obtaining some funding to have that torn down and rebuilt. Right now, we estimate the rebuilding of that wing is going to be about $49,000,000 This is where being a state veterans home is important. The VA would pay for 65% of that project and the state would be responsible for 35%. Yes.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: We got a hand from rep Morgan.

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: Okay.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Yeah. Hi, Melissa. Michael Morgan. I'm a Vermont National Guard retiree. And just going back to what you said about Guard members, they had to have been activated under title 10 to be eligible. Did that come from and maybe if I missed it, apologize. Does that come from state statute sent or sent or is that is that VA regulations? Is that so is it federal or state that's making that prohibitive to take a national guard?

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: It's federal.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Federal? Okay.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Yep.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Yep. Because there's similar language for other things. I assume that was the case, but, just thought I'd ask. Alright, thank you.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: You're welcome. We have our eight bed residential care facility, or Dom. Those veterans that have a lot more are former independent, they can come and go as they please. We have two that drive. We have 192 state employees and then 50 temporary employees. So the temporary employees are like part time employees. They are our state employees. We also have agency or traveling nurse employees that are not included in this number. We do short term rehab, long term rehab, physical, occupational, and speech therapy. We just received some really good news from the VA after almost five years of fighting with the VA, as I'll call it. We have now been given the opportunity to apply to what's called Optum. And Optum is the contracted provider for the VA, for individuals who receive health care services from the VA to be an outpatient provider for veterans who are 70% or more service connected disabled to provide rehab services. So instead of them having to go to White River Junction or other physical therapy providers in the community, if accepted by Optum, they could come here. So what the nice thing about that is, is we don't have to provide any more equipment. We don't have to provide any more staff. We have all of that right here, so we're actually using our current resources to generate extra revenue. I'm working on that application now. We do respite care, hospice and palliative care, and we have guest rooms for family members to stay if they like to be close to their loved one. We used them all during this past weekend with our snowstorm. We had our staff hanging out in them. On slide seven, this is the first of many things I'm so very, very proud of our staff about. We received the National Silver Quality Award from the American Health Care Association National Assisted Living Association. This is the middle of a three tier quality award. We received the bronze award in 2024. We were the only nursing home in the state of Vermont to receive this award. This is a very lengthy application process. The application was close to 40 pages where we have to explain who we are, what we do, our systems, how we maintain quality. And three of our staff members went to Las Vegas and accepted the award on our behalf. We are in the process of working towards the Gold Quality Award and will be applying in January 2027, which is the highest quality award a nursing home can receive nationally. On slide eight, US News and World Report acknowledged us as one of the best facilities for both long and short term care for 2026. Again, the only nursing home in the state of Vermont to receive both of these awards. Then we have our pinnacle performance. On the right hand side of slide nine, you see the various customer service categories. We received best in class awards in all of those categories, making us one of the top 15% nursing homes in the country. This data comes directly from Pinnacle reaching out to our families and our residents asking them about how we're doing in each of these categories. And then monthly we get the results back. We just got ours for January yesterday, and they ask how's the food, how's the temperature of the room, how's communication, those type of things. So I'm very proud of my staff.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: And then

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: on page 10 is some of the comments that come directly from these surveys, and areas appreciated. I love this first one. I appreciate the fact that they walk their walk and they don't even talk about it. I know they communicate and talk with each other. It isn't just about having expensive materials. It's spending the time with them to make them feel they belong and matter. So, which is nice because if you walk into some of the newer nursing homes, you look like you're walking into a five star hotel. So you walk into our building, yes, it looks older, but we're spending the money where it matters with the care and making sure our staff has the supplies that they need. Is not on here is we also were recognized by Google and VisRate as one of the top 10 nursing homes in the state of Vermont. We were ranked number six. So we have quite the team down here. I'm very, very proud of them. Slide 12 talks about our FY27 budget. 72% of our costs are fixed, which is about $23,000,000 These are things that we have little or no control over, our salaries and our benefits, our Medicaid tax, utilities, state allocations. And then the things we have little control over, which is our food and our operating budget. And as we all know, everything gets more expensive every day. So I'm very proud of my department heads. They are constantly looking at state contracts. Is it cheaper to buy paper towels from this vendor, vice that vendor? But it is very, very hard to maintain budgets. Slide 13 is our salaries and benefits. In the past, we've been asked what is our salary and benefit history been? All of our employees, because we're always asked our state employees, So they receive the same benefits as all the other state employees across the state. So that is our history. And I want to talk about slide 14, which is our general fund history. So if you look from '25 to '26, it looks like our general fund allotment or appropriation went up significantly. So what happened from year '25 to '26 is fiscal year '25 in previous, we'd always come back for a budget adjustment because we had what's called Medicaid settlement money. Starting in '26 and moving forward, we are making an estimate of what that Medicaid settlement money is and building it into our budget and not hopefully not having to come back for budget adjustment. So as you can see, FY twenty six to twenty seven shows just that 3% increase in our budget as provided by the instructions from the governor and that joint fiscal. Slide 15 talks about how our budget breaks down with 62% of our budget being salaries and benefits or a little over $20000000.1100000.0 being state allocations, and then 3% for utilities and then 2% being bed tax. So even though we have a 30 beds offline, we did not earn in our licenses for those beds because I was afraid we would not get them back. So we're still paying bed tax on those licenses even though the beds are not being used. So almost 33% of our budget is general funds. The remainder comes from Medicare, Medicaid, private funds and VA funding. Talk about our VA funding on slide 16.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Hold on one second if we could. Could you explain the bed tax to me a little bit more granularly?

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Sure.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: All nursing homes and I believe hospitals, but we'll talk about nursing homes pay what's called a Medicaid bed tax to the state for every bed that is Medicaid certified. All of our beds are Medicaid certified.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So you

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: pay a Medicaid bed tax, and my understanding is we pay that tax and then the state is able to leverage federal funding based on that money. Ours is like a little over, I flipped it back, sorry.

[Steve McLapperty (Finance/administrative staff, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: It's a little bit over $4,400 per bed.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Right. The state gets a certain amount of matching funds from our $639,000 from the federal government that they can use in addition But to the

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: you're still paying the bed tax on the portion of the facility that's not in rotation right now because it's in a decrepit state while you wait for the renovation money. So you're circulating this bed tax.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Why would you So

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So you would have to, like, reapply if you were to, like, pull that out of the mix, then that's probably its own bureaucratic

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yes.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Line to untangle? Yes.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: So up until recently, and I I will reach out and find out, we always had to go through the Green Mountain Care Board if we were doing construction projects, you know, over what was it, dollars 500,000. I can't remember the number now. But when you want new nursing home beds, in the past, we'd have to go through the Green Mountain Care Board. I have to find out if the change also applies to beds. I know there's nursing home closing now, so there may not be necessarily a risk of us not getting the licenses back. In the past, if you gave away your licenses, there was no guarantee you would get them back.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So you know, you should just better serve paying it for the dormant space to retain it. So when the, like, I got you on the gymnastics, it just seems so, like, processed to the process. Right? Hooper of Burlington.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Melissa, do you know how much that $639,000 is leveraged by the state to get what amount?

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: I believe they leverage all of it. I don't know what percentage it's leveraged at. I'm quite sure AHS can give you the direct, you know, the exact figures.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: There'll be a sticky bill to waive it for

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: And with the recent changes with the big beautiful bill, I know some of that has changed, so I'm not exactly sure.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Noted. Anything else for Melissa while we got a pause button on the slides right now? Nope. All right. Thank you for that. That adds a lot of clarity to, thank you for educating us.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: You're welcome. So we get received VA reimbursement under two categories. So VA per diem or the basic per diem is paid to each veteran that is less than 70% service connected, and that's a daily rate of $146.98 for the nursing home and 63 and 26¢ for the domiciliary. And then the remainder of their cost of their care is paid by Medicare or Medicaid or private pay or long term care insurance. This is nice when someone is a private pay veteran because it's like a little bit of a discount for them, helps offset the cost, makes us a little bit cheaper than the nursing home down the road. If they're a full cost of care veteran, this just went up. I used to know it like off the back of my head because it was $555.55 What is it now, Steven? I forget.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: That is a very convenient number.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Oh, there you go.

[Steve McLapperty (Finance/administrative staff, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Dollars $5.67.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: That's $567 I'll remember that now.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: So

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: this $567 is an all inclusive rate. So it's room, board, medications, medical supplies, physician visits, everything. So one of the biggest hindrances in us admitting veterans who are seventy percent or more service connected disabled are medications, especially veterans who are on oral chemotherapy medications. We've turned down veterans who are on oral chemotherapy medications that are 30,000 and 40,050 thousand dollars a month because if you do the math, it's a losing situation. Interestingly, the VA does contract with some private for profit homes in the community and their agreements allow for these private homes to receive reimbursement for medications that are 8.5 of their daily rate. They're getting reimbursed for these very expensive oral chemo medications where we are not. The National Association of State Veterans Home has legislation pending at the national level to change that. Hopefully that will get passed so we will also have that same benefit. Oh, you know, when you don't have someone admitted, you can say no, but you really can't kick somebody out if they're here and they suddenly have to go on this oral chemotherapy medication. So that is a big concern. Another concern we're seeing nationwide is a big shift in what the VA used to pay and that they're pushing off on state veterans homes. So if you're a veteran in the community and you need dental care, they would pay for it. If you needed a custom wheelchair, they would pay for it. What we're seeing on the West Coast and everything on the West Coast eventually filters this way is they're now telling state veterans homes they have to pay for that. A custom wheelchair can easily go anywhere from 50 to $100,000 So again, the National Association of State Veterans Homes is working on legislation to say, what is the deal? These are veterans. These veterans earn these benefits. They shouldn't be losing them because they're coming to our setting, nor should we as the facility have to pay for those. So that's something we're monitoring very closely. So for FY '27, we anticipate that we're going to be receiving about $8,600,000 from the VA. Slide 18 talks about how that breaks down, about 2,400,000.0 in the VA stipend, about 161,000 for the DOM, and a little over 6,000,000 for our service connected veterans. So slide 20 talks about what our current reimbursement rates are. We will be meeting with the Board of Trustees the February, and we'll be making a request to increase the private rates slightly. That only impacts those very few that do our private pay, but it's time to do that. Our Vermont Medicaid rate is an interim rate. When we do our annual cost report, then they provide the actual difference between that rate and our actual rate. What was our settlement this past year? It was over $700 per day, correct?

[Steve McLapperty (Finance/administrative staff, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: It was about $760

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: So we're anticipating for FY '27 that the Medicaid settlement rate will be about $3,700,000 And that's been already built into the budget. Slide 20 talks about who lives here. Our veterans are about 81 years of age. Our youngest is 55 and our oldest is 98. We are still predominantly male, 18 females, 83 veterans including three women. We still have one World War II veteran with us. We are predominantly Vietnam vets at this time. We still have the challenges of higher acuity needs, specifically around mental health, PTSD, substance abuse. The biggest challenge for us is when we have veterans with memory care, dementia and PTSD, and suddenly have an acute onset of behaviors, there is really no place for them to go for treatment. They can't go to an inpatient psychiatric care center because they can't participate in the environment or the environment's not secured so they won't wander away. Unfortunately, although not recently, in the past we've had veterans in emergency rooms for long periods of time while we've tried to find them placement. Am happy to report that in the past I've said we've had a veteran on one on one for twenty fourseven where there's a staff member with them literally twenty four hours a day, seven days a week for years. Now we're using it intermittently. Our staff has gotten very good at identifying when someone's getting ready to have a crisis or changing their environment so that we only need one on one periodically. So our other major challenge is obviously staffing. I'm happy to report that this time last year, were using over 50% of our staff was agency staff. We were down to a little less than 48%. But here we are. What the average hourly rate is? So on the top is our staff with benefits, and then on the bottom is what we pay an agency staff member. So we are continuing to pick away at hiring staff. Sarah Sigsberry joined us as our new DNS in January, or excuse me, July. She was our admissions nurse and she has been phenomenal in terms of hiring. She's hired almost 16 new staff members in the nursing department. That's like her primary job. She's in checking to see when the new applications are in. So that's both full and part time. She has been working very hard to hire and fill positions. We've also had great success with our LNA classes. We've had two classes in 2025. We ended up with four individuals staying with us from that class. And next week we have eight individuals graduating from a class, all of which have said they wanted to work second shift, which is great because that's where our biggest need for LNAs are and it's where our biggest agency uses. And we will be offering another agency, me, LNA class in the fall.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Can I interrupt just for a second to ask there's no agreement ahead of time that if they go through your program that they have to stay with you for a certain period of time?

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: No, there's not. I've tried to work that through. I've talked to labor relations and it's very complicated to make that happen. We'll just leave it at that.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, I guess that's too bad that you would go through all the trouble of training somebody and they wouldn't stay. I know some of the community hospitals have their own programs now, but there is that expectation. However, they don't work with state employees. So, thank you.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: You're welcome.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Slide 23 talks about our expense challenges, the recruitment. Probably one of mine and Steve's biggest pet peeves is the pass through expenses. And I realize it's the budgeting piece, but other agencies not picking anywhere but ADS or HR, if they increase their expenses, they can pass them through to us and we're kind of like a dead end when we don't really have any other place to increase if our expenses increase that we can pass them off to. We have to absorb that increase. We have the eleven fifteen waiver. This waiver, which AHS has applied for us, and if you have specific questions about this waiver, you need to ask them about it because they do all of the legwork for us. What Steve and I understand is this waiver allows us to obtain our actual cost for our Medicaid residents. This waiver is in place until 12/31/2027. We anticipate that it will be renewed. The big beautiful bill does state that when it is renewed, AHS must prove that the waiver, that we are providing care less than would otherwise be, what was the word I want, Steven? That it's cheaper to do it via the waiver than if the federal government was monitoring the program, I think that's how I want

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: to put it. The upper payment limit and

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yes. The you.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: So if it exceeds the upper payment limit, we would lose this settlement money, and then it would result in us requesting a much higher general fund request. Steve and I are trying to determine what current upper payment limit is, but it could be looking at an additional 4,000 to $5,000 request at least at a minimum of our general fund request if this goes away. We don't have any indication that that's going to be the situation, but we want to lay that out there as a a potential option, just in case.

[Steve McLapperty (Finance/administrative staff, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: 4 to 5,000,000.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Yes. Did I say dollars? Sorry. Been a long day.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I had an asterisk on that.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Thank you, pennies. Don't worry about

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: it. Sorry

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: about that.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: No, it's all good. It's all good.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Knowing that the world is very tight and all the changes, both nationally, state, locally, we've been working really, really hard on how can we continue to reduce expenses. So we're making sure that we are doing the best to make sure that our expenses are in line with our daily census, working really hard with our supervisors that just because one person calls out, right, stop, take a breath. Let's look at what our resources are. Do we really need to call in somebody or can we move people around or can we access an administrative nurse to help fill in that gap? We eliminated our contract with our podiatrist because we have a wound care nurse and our in house advanced practice nurse had the ability to do the nail trimming that we were paying a podiatrist for. So we're saving money there. And then we'll be meeting with Doug Pine at classification and human resources to talk about, is it possible for us to bring some of our other contracted vendors in as either full or part time temp state employees and save money? Leaving no stone unturned because some of our contractors are very, very expensive and would it be cheaper to have them as state employees? I already talked about our LNA class as well as the one on one supervision. We continue to watch that. Our admission and marketing are trying to maintain a budget of 90 residents. We were there the other day and then we had four deaths in twenty four hours. So comes and goes. It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately. We have a waiting list. Carolyn, our admission nurse, is working really hard to have admissions. We have one later on this week, one next week, so we are doing that. We continue to reach out to veteran service organizations throughout the state. We're very active in job fairs to recruit employees. And we have a very active activities department. If you're not following our Facebook page, I strongly encourage you to do that. I never know where I'm going to find my staff and our residents. They've been a little bit housebound because of the weather and they're getting anxious. But this summer, they were at the movies, they went to the Saratoga Performing Arts Center for concerts, they went to Lake George for fireworks, They went down to Newburgh, New York to the Purple Heart Museum. They have been everywhere. So we have them everywhere. And then we also have community events. We have this new annual summer carnival that the community comes to, our residents come to, our Father's Day car show, we do wreaths across America. So our residents are really busy. So you don't come here to get to sit in the corner and just wither away. We keep you very, very busy. And

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: After hearing that list, I wanna hang out and do excursions with you folks. Rep Coffin had a hand.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: Just, curiosity, because you said you had a waiting list for new residents. How long is that list? What is the average waiting time or the length of

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: So there is about 40 people on the waiting list, and the and it's predominantly for our memory care unit, which is our secured dementia care unit. So it's hard to say because basically beds come available when someone passes away. So that's the hard part. Yeah. And getting that A wing back open again would be, is very important to us, because that is really limiting our ability to admit.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: So right now it could be years.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Yes, I'm hoping that, because there is definitely a need.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Hence the $45,000,000 construction project with vets that are still paying a tax.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Right.

[Steve McLapperty (Finance/administrative staff, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: And the other thing, people or veterans or members coming in, they want private rooms, which we do have a large contingent of private rooms on Cardinal, the memory care unit, but there are still some rooms that are semi private.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: And most share a bathroom, which is not conducive in our memory care unit. Questions for us?

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Open it up to the tables.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Please, Representative Hango.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: I just wanted to comment on thanking you for the invitation, invitations plural, to come and visit as a committee. And we do hope we will be able to do that when the weather is better. I'm sorry we couldn't do it in the off session. Just really hard to get people together.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: That's totally fine. And if you can't come down as a committee and come down one at a time, let us know. Nights, weekends, holidays, whatever. We'd be more than happy to show you around. Thank you. Works.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: We really appreciate it.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: What's that?

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Lunch is usually pretty good.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So, within the portion of the conversation around the forthcoming budget cycle, If you could send us a budget memo, a budget request letter for us to use when we put our budget memo together for the Appropriations Committee.

[Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault (Member)]: Sure.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: That would be a helpful tool for us once we start doing that work. Budget adjustment is happening very soon. So, once that is gone through its process, we're going to jump right into the whole budgetary process with appropriations.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Okay.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Getting that will, will help us do our homework.

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: Alright.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: We can do that.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Thank you. Alright. Last last call for our friends in the Veterans Home? Yes. Representative Hooper and Brevich.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Representative Morgan raised this question. I didn't know the answer to it. Is our cemetery still active?

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Yes. Yeah. Yep. So veterans, who reside and pass away here and have no other means of being interred are buried here.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Is the VA daily rate for veterans that have rating only, or is it for any veteran who comes in?

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: So the basic per diem, the one whatever is it.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: 145?

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Yeah. That's for everybody. And then the $5.67 is for those that are 70% or more service connected disabled.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Anything else? Alright. Well, thank you so much for the update. Thank you so much for the work you do. Thank you. And we're here as a resource, and we will chat more soon. And, yeah, just whenever you can get us that note on the budget process. We got time. I just wanted to stay in early. It went a little long, so we are moving into Hello, everyone joining us in Zoom land. Melissa. Melissa, good to see you again.

[Melissa Wallet (New England Regional Liaison, Defense-State Liaison Office)]: Likewise, sir.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So, yes, we're moving on to, age five thirty one, an act relating to creating a preference for military spouses and hiring into state employment. We did an introduction and a walkthrough on this. I did see the letter you sent, and I asked the committee assistant to post that for today's testimony. So So we're just looking forward to getting your perspective on this proposal put forward by Rep Stone and others.

[Melissa Wallet (New England Regional Liaison, Defense-State Liaison Office)]: Yeah. Absolutely. So, Melissa Wallet, I'm the New England regional liaison at the Defense State Liaison Office. And we, as liaisons, represent the department and really establish relationships with stakeholders across the country within our respective regions on issues that negatively impact our service members and their families. And one such policy is military spouse employment, because the spouse unemployment rate is sitting at roughly 21% and that, is significantly higher than their civilian counterparts. And like everybody else, our military families rely on two incomes to meet their basic needs. So we think that offering employment preference may be the difference maker when looking at ways that we can reduce, the high unemployment rate among the demographic. But I think, it's important to highlight that military spouses do bring, a distinct talent to the workforce, and this really has an opportunity, to create stronger pathways for employment for those military spouses, due to the high demands of military service. I know Vermont doesn't necessarily have a tremendously large population of active duty service members, but we do have service members that PCS in and out of the state every two years. Because of that tempo, a lot of these military spouses don't have the opportunity to create their, you know, or enhance their own careers and fulfill, those types of demands. So this would offer a little bit more economic stability both for the military spouse and the family as a whole. But happy to answer any questions that the committee might have. Questions concerns I know my colleague Michelle Richard is here from the Midwest she's actually the policy lead for this issue within our office each of us as liaisons are assigned a policy issue to serve as the lead on where we're sort of the subject matter experts on this but Michelle has actually had success with this policy priority in Nebraska and I would like to highlight also New England is starting to make headway on this policy priority too. New Hampshire has enacted this legislation in 2025, and Maine held a public hearing on it last week, and it's gonna get a favorable report out of committee with, support from the Department of Veterans and Emergency Management and Financial Services.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: No, no, no, that's definitely great information for us to have, because we're looking at this very, very attentively. Want to move it along and yeah. Rick Hooper?

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Hi. I many of the things that you just stated, the two income necessary short term employment opportunities, you know, it's embarrassing to have our military have to go through that. The only thing that bothers me about this proposal is it places people in direct competition with veterans themselves for employment. Do you have any kind of history or representation about how that works out in the real world?

[Melissa Wallet (New England Regional Liaison, Defense-State Liaison Office)]: Are you talking about the preferential point system that could be I've heard that question raised a few times in New England and I can speak to Connecticut, it's something that we're working on there also, and they are giving they're looking at giving military spouses a reduced preference. Say disabled veterans get 10 points added to their preference, military spouses would get five so that that competing necessarily isn't there, but a spouse would kind of have an advantage over the general population, if you will, if they meet the basic requirements of the job.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Well, question actually is that gap that you just identified between the disabled veteran and the regular veteran who does not have a disability but has veteran service would then be on the same bar five points with the spouses. The original intent of this was to get veterans working when they came back from war. Now we're thinking of basically making it a not a competition, but a lot more humans available to fill the supplies.

[Melissa Wallet (New England Regional Liaison, Defense-State Liaison Office)]: Yeah, I can certainly appreciate that concern, sir. I think I would just say it's important to note that it doesn't give it would get the military spouse's foot in the door say for an interview to have that one on one conversation and not necessarily employer absolutely having to give them the job because they are a military spouse.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Okay.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yeah, we shall feel free to jump in. Just if there's any, like, background on, like, what the state other states' processes have looked like. Like, as far as the proposal that we have in front of us, like, structurally speaking, you Like I was saying a few moments ago, we have the intent of moving this. So getting your perspective is really valuable at this point.

[Michelle Richard (Midwest Regional Liaison, Defense-State Liaison Office)]: Thank you. My name is Michelle Richard, Midwest Regional Liaison, the Defense State Liaison Office. As Melissa mentioned, I am a counterpart and issue lead on this policy priority. So as you can consider this, as Melissa mentioned, Nebraska passed this bill last year. I cover Nebraska. Ironically, I'm also a military spouse originally from Nebraska. And one of the things that Nebraska did was they opened up their veterans preference to include military spouses similar to what Melissa mentioned. The point system is a little bit different than for the veterans preference, but they adopted two different ways of doing this. They had a public preference and they also created a permissive private preference. It allows private companies to establish a hiring preference for military spouses, just like they can do with veterans, without subjecting them to any sort of backlash. This So policy looks very similar to what many other states are starting to do, as Melissa mentioned, up in the New England region as well. I'm happy to answer any other questions, and I hope that helped provide some context.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Well, thank you. Any questions? We do have one more guest. Seeing no hands. Alright, moving on to our final witness, and excuse me, but Ms. Lejeune, is

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: that Am I pronouncing

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: that correctly?

[Kristen L’Agieness (Military spouse witness)]: L'Agieness.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: L'Agieness, okay.

[Kristen L’Agieness (Military spouse witness)]: Thank you, Chair and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to come in my personal capacity as a military spouse to share the challenges that are experienced by military spouses around the world. This bill is is designed to address those challenges. So if you'll allow me, I'll introduce myself a little bit and share my personal experiences. I grew up in the military. My father served in the eighty second Airborne Infantry working in signals intelligence. He was a native Spanish speaker and also was sent to the language school to learn Russian and Polish work that placed our family in the middle of the Cold War era. Later, I married an Air Force officer who served in counterintelligence. And during his twenty two career, we moved 14 times and lived in The Middle East on multiple occasions. Between 2003 and 2013, he completed four deployments to The Middle East. We have three grown children and two are continuing the tradition of military service. And like many other military families, we accepted these frequent relocations, long separations, and uncertainty as part of our commitment to service. During those active years, employment for me was not always a straight line. Each move meant starting over. New job markets, new licensing rules, new employers, new professional networks. I routinely faced questions about gaps in my employment history, even though those gaps were the result, direct result of military orders and deployments. At the same time, I was deeply involved in community, school, and volunteer leadership roles at each duty station, often coordinating programs, leading teams, managing budgets, supporting military families during their deployments. These roles were meaningful, demanding and skill building, but they were rarely valued the same way as uninterrupted full time employment. I didn't lose my skills during those years, but the hiring process often treated them as if they hadn't counted. One example that illustrates this instability occurred when my husband was deployed to Afghanistan. When his father's health declined, the Air Force granted a humanitarian assignment, allowing him to leave his twelve month deployment early and teach ROTC at Norwich University so that we could be closer to family. While that assignment provided family stability, it required another reset for us. That cycle of relocation restart explanation repeats itself throughout an active duty service members service. This is the reality of H531. The bill does not guarantee employment, does not bypass qualifications. It provides a modest preference, five additional points for military spouses who meet all requirements, pass point based competitive examinations for state employment. That matters because even a small adjustment can help offset the cumulative disadvantage created by frequent mandatory relocation. We recognize this that military spouses are not less capable or less committed. In fact, we are often highly adaptable, experienced in leadership, and deeply oriented toward public service. Importantly, H531 preserves Vermont's merit based hiring system. It's collective bargaining agreements and action standards levels the playing field without tipping it. Military service is not carried by service members alone. It is shared by families. Supporting military spouses during active service is a practical way to honor that shared sacrifice while strengthening Vermont's workforce. And for those reasons, I respectfully support H531. Thank you.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Brett Morgan. Kristen, you say you're married to an Air Force officer?

[Kristen L’Agieness (Military spouse witness)]: I am. He's retired now.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: Wise choice. Wise choice.

[Kristen L’Agieness (Military spouse witness)]: If you pass age 43, we'll stay.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: That's a great bug. We have a retired

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Arabid sitting at the table. We have an active

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Arabid sitting gallery or so. No

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: prejudice in that comment whatsoever.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Noted. I'm showing. I got my poor my poor dude. I'm tearing with prejudice.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Our baby over here.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yeah. Retired army. So thought you said represented in the room. Most of the branches. Yeah. Who's got a space force?

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: Oh, god.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I have a little little Lebanese good. No. Absolutely. So Yeah, well,

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: that was no, but I'll yeah, it was great.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yes. No, bringing bringing it back to the to the matter at hand. Yes. No, we we we plan on doing more. We're figuring out what the goal is right now is we're identifying that we want to continue to work on, so we can attempt to move them all at once. And this one is shaping up to be a priority for the committee. So, thank you very much for your testimony. And are there any other questions for our guests? Thank you so much. We appreciate all of your time, all of your efforts, and all your hard work and service. So, thank you very much.

[Kristen L’Agieness (Military spouse witness)]: Thank you all. Thank you.

[Michelle Richard (Midwest Regional Liaison, Defense-State Liaison Office)]: Thank you.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: All right. Oh, and now that has us shifting gears to H555. We have the esteemed retired civil officer and our current veteran affairs, affairs, mister Burke, director of I did that backwards. It was my dyslexia jumping out for a

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: little bit.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Here at the address, sir, we just wanted to hear from you on this one bill, and and if had commentary on the other one we spoke to, please feel free.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Hi, Robert Burke, director of Office of Veterans Affairs, State Office of Veterans Affairs. I work quite a bit with Melissa. She is the newer. They reconfigured the districts a couple of years ago. So she concentrates more in New England, where it used to go down to Delaware, West Virginia. So we have a smaller Northeast district now. So I get the updates through her for DOD and what their priorities are. My understanding in terms of that five thirty one, I mean, we don't have a numerical based hiring process. So to say, maybe you get 10 extra points, you get five extra points on top of what? You know, we're not examining we're not examining people for service civil service jobs. So how do you how do you apply extras? You know?

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I had Rutland, and had, Hooper.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, mister Burke. That was going to be one of my questions for the previous witnesses, Michelle or Melissa, is but I wasn't sure they knew the answer. So I'm really glad you brought that up. So currently, we do not administer as a state civil service examinations like, for instance, New York State does.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Or state employment. State government. Thank you.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Brad Hooper, Burlington. Period.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: To your experience.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: I mean, it To to my experience and how I so if you read if you read the HR guidance, it says that veterans get a preference. Okay. But they're what how am I going to just because they're a veteran to get extra points or because they have relative experience? So there's no in in terms of the contract, my understanding, I'm not a Mhmm. Person, but there's not a mechanism to say, okay, extra five points, extra 10 points.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: We should bring somebody personal in to see how relevant it is. It used

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: to be Yes.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yeah. You should somebody should come in and explain to you how

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: It used to be the tests were administered for a lot of jobs, but now you moved more training experience as a grid facility in Idaho.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: I mean, my experience since 2014, I didn't take an exam. We don't examine any of the people who've applied to my office or knowledge thereof of a requirement to do so.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: They used to have typing tests, boom, boom, boom, a lot

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: of those things. That's disappeared. Yeah, showing your age. Who

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: would be a good office and contact for that?

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Probably.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Labor Relations. I

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: think he's the cluster team person.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: He's within Beth Fistigie's HR department. Beth Norbert. Okay.

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: I mean, yeah, because it's still up on their website.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: What's that?

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: It's still up on the state website that they are using a point system if this bill was proposed.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Well, let's

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: let's send let's send a note out and schedule some

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: It says they're stopped using it, but how do I if I have a veteran or if I 31 passes, I have a military spouse, I apply those points to one. Because we're not scoring even when we do interviews, we're not we're scoring, you know, one through five, and that's based on experience, education, etcetera. Not, you know, how well you did in the exam, I'm gonna throw you

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: an extra five points. Okay.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Bob, you can continue with this question, then we're going pissing off, Boyd, and Hango, and that over.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: It's all over the place. What states use? Mhmm. Pennsylvania, take a test. If you're a veteran, the top three veterans who are skilled to the hiring agency and they're obligated to just think of finding things, actually hiring a veteran.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: So to offer employment?

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Yes, But for one that's never, to my knowledge, had a very strong part of a veteran other than talking about it, putting it in your side in the bathroom policy. Yes, no.

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: So, we don't have an exam, we also just take it one step further and say, okay, then if you're interviewing two people, and one's Joe Citizen and one's Joe Citizen military spouse, and you're not willing to know which one to hire, you're going to be leaning more towards, you're going to offer it to the military one first.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Yes.

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Without a point system, as I said, they have a If somebody applies, people, then go to the military bank first. That's essentially what Pennsylvania wanted to do. I believe I hear from legislative counsel that the state police is the only Yes. An

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: example. To

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: I

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: just

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: flag that when we do speak to somebody from human resources, that they understand that their website still lists something that's quite outdated. So, Rep. Pinsonault, if you want to maybe make a note of that, what will come in, we could ask them about that. Sure.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Okay. Would actually have some of you from labor relations. Labor relations. Because it's going to be a union issue. And who gets preference for what is? Just to say, Joe.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: There you go.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: But that Rep Stone, is it listed on the Human Resources website? Relations. It's actually Department of Human Resources. Because we want to flag it in CHO.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yeah, it's DHL.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. So we probably The portion of

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: human resources. No. And I understand your point with labor relations on that. Also Yes. That's not a

[Philip Jay Hooper (Member)]: because there's a

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: It's an and. Yeah. Thanks.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Over time, it's bidding the contract and unless somebody puts forward change it, it helps the language in your current state employee in his job, so then you get consideration for motion first before the public, which doesn't always happen either. It's a mess.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Here's an opportunity to tighten it up. Yep. Alright. Well, thank you for that,

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Bob. Thank you.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Flag of me of health. Good flag. I started gladly inviting right behind they opposite of the Tread lightly. I'm

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: gonna tap the brakes on further commentary. Oh, okay. So so I guess that's the conversation piece in and around the 05:31. But now for five

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: five five. So Please. Yeah. I I watched last week's testimony, and so I'd like to understand better the motivation and reason behind I'm not clear because we have a disabled veteran license plate, which is the same, and it keeps she it's the same sort of buying information that you submit to get it as a regular, placard or handicap, plate. So I'm not trying to understand the goals.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So the intent within this is for I just read it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess I'll I'll defer to the bill sponsor if I may. Clarification?

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: Yeah, and I can also throw you in VL, but you have some good stories to better highlight how this might come in practice or not. Do you want to say your piece first, just to kind of like

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Okay.

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Do a storytelling. So

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: What this talks about, okay, is put the license plates for disabled veteran. Well, Vermont standard for dis disabled veteran to receive a license plate is different than, say, New Hampshire. Okay? So you can be a 100% disabled veteran. And if if the bill is saying, you can be a 100% disabled veteran, then still not be eligible for those plates. Correct. Let's say disabled veteran. But the same veteran in New Hampshire with the same disability as you is eligible for disabled veteran plates. What is asking on this bill is that you can use metered spaces if you're a disabled veteran without having to pay the metered time. It excludes disabled veterans that may be 70 disabled but not qualify for that plate. Correct. So this bill, you know, how do you distinguish because the Vermont disabled license plate has a wheelchair on it. You can't get that without Right. Being

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: So this establishes a physical limitation Yes. An ambulatory condition Yes. Where, you know, the the test is you can only walk or get yourself x number of feet yards to the front entrance of a business store, etcetera. Sure. You can be a 100% disabled to the VA and still be running track at 65 years old. Yes. So do you have an ambulatory condition? No. So how do you my confusion is how do you section out and do you put a percentage limitation? My concern is the degradation of this. Correct. Right? So we don't have DV plates as other other states do. We have this, or we have nothing. Right. Or you you get a flag plate, you get a campaign plate, etcetera.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Right.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: But none of that entitles privileged parking, closer parking, paid parking. Am I correct that any handicap placard plate in the state of Vermont can be free at a parking meter anytime? That was my assumption. Is that not the case? I don't wanna admit that. I mean, I

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I lean towards your opinion, but

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: I don't know for certain. I I just always felt my opinion. I always thought that that was the case. Right. You know, like, pull up in State Street, you have that handicap placard or plate, Pull up in a meter, you don't have to plug underneath.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yes. And I don't know if that's, like, a regular practice or a law.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Town by town. Yeah. I I'm just curious. I mean, it's definitely the right thing to do. Right. Because when you have two handicap spaces and you have 98

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: other spaces Yeah. Logic would dictate. Yeah. But again, I don't know if that's statute practice or yeah.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: A couple years ago, I saw a placarded parking space that had a meter at it, which I consider to be weird. Well Which would speak

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: They finally took the ones down State Street down Yeah. Yeah. Two years ago. But that that's just know, so how how do you set up? So we you I you know, this would my in my mind, this would stay the same. Mhmm. And the state would issue a DV plate, you to convince DMV the need for, and you want to establish a DV plate. What are the percentages? Who's going to be the judge of you being able to get that DV plate? Right? Is it gonna be my office where you're gonna have to come in and show a summary of benefits letter that you get every year? You know, for the property tax exemption, so it's 50% or greater. Not

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: sure.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yeah. What is it? It's a parking meter with a handicap symbol on it.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha.

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: I think the main reason is because as somebody who works with people who are disabled, I think that the scope of what it requires to have a disability on a parking plate is too low. Patients who have PTSD, who have traumatic brain injury, who have other things that may not affect their ambulation or their vision have reasons to park closer to where they need to get. And so I think it's the least we could do to expand scope, particularly for our veterans, to have the ability to park close to where they need to be. And I can tell you that as an occupational therapist too. It's not just my patients who have had a total knee displacement that need to park closer to buildings. You have PTSD, for example, some of my patients don't want to park in the back of the parking lot because it may trigger them. They want to park where they can see everything and they can be closer to the door and if you're in need of. So that's just an example of my real world experience working with some of our veterans here in the state who aren't going to qualify for what I think is very narrow

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: scope to get that disabled parking qualification.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: I concur with your thoughts and your professional knowledge. I just who's gonna who's gonna set who's gonna come up with that percentage? 50? 60? So it's 50 for the property tax exemption. It's 60% or higher for fishing and hunting licenses. You know, for the property tax exemption, if you're a 100% permanent in total, you're a one time filer. Everybody else is an annual filer. So, I mean, somebody's somebody gotta come up with the verbiage, a percentage based on and and who's gonna confirm that? Who and how is that gonna be confirmed?

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I'm just making notes. But, yes, we

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: hear it often that people are like, I came from Florida, and I'm a disabled veteran, and I am a disabled veteran employee. Well, this is the disabled veteran employee in Vermont, and here's the doctor's form that you need to take and bring to your doctor, have to certify and bring back to DNP. Nothing to do with us. Different parameters. Yes. Same as a handicap placard or a regular. Indi cap. Yeah. No.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: And the the different percentage thresholds that you were just citing, whether it be for, like, property taxes and or, like, pushing puts those things. I I that was such a conversation a long time ago. I forgot those even existed, right, as a different measure. Yeah. Why is

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: it why is it 50 for the proper tax and 60 for a hunting and fishing?

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Right.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: There's I don't think there's any

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: It was a compromise at some point Yes. Twenty five years ago. Right?

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yes. Alright. I got Coffin, then I got Jujin.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yeah. I

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: this is just a commentary that what I worry about because this is for parking meters and, you know, we're looking at for the parking piece. Okay? What I worry is that having people and being a disabled veteran myself, I wouldn't use it to park in a handicapped spot. But would you have somebody that doesn't need to park in a handicapped spot using that plate to then park in a handicapped spot just to have the closer for convenience. For convenience instead of actual need.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: You make that plate ineligible. And yeah. It would have to be a separate plate. Plate. Does not equal this for handicap parkings, hosted handicap parking spaces. That's what we need That's separate plate. Yeah. Because you're make

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: it To make it right so that Yeah. Anybody that actually needs that handicap spot gets it. Wouldn't lose that ability.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: If that was my concern about the degradation

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: of That makes sense.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Of debts.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Alright. I had Nugent and then Sean.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: You're good.

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: I would say the beauty about this is that I heard this when I was at an NCSL conference, and a lot of other states in the room do this. In Vermont, I think we get so tangled in the weeds because we probably mucked things up for lack of better terms, with a lot of other bills making it like 20% for this, 30% for this, 40%, we're playing prices right or something, it's throwing out numbers. But the good thing is we can look to other states to see what they've done and model our legislation off of that. And then also recognize when other people come from other states and have a disabled veteran, like put that in the bill too. If somebody's visiting here and they have a DB plate, let's let them park there. But I don't wanna just stop because perfect is the enemy of good, because a lot of states are doing this. I will say that it felt really kind of silly for me to be sitting in the room with an NCSL, and they're like, Here's some great bills that we're all doing across The US. And I'm like, we're not doing that in Vermont. This seems like a really low bar thing for us to do, compared to some of the other bills that we've had to struggle to push through this building. And times fast. There's so many other states in the room, be like, yeah, we'll do it.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Do they have a spreadsheet? Oh,

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: I'm sure they can give it to us. I'm sure we could reach out to NCSL. Yeah, they're usually really good. But this was a low bar one that a lot of people around me from blue states and red states were doing, I was like, surprise we're not. I just want to keep that in everyone's mind.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: We wouldn't

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: be like, first ones, maybe one of the, late to the ball game, one of these.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: But no. I believe, you know, if we're gonna do this, it should be a new license plate, a DV. And as far as the percentage goes, if you have a rating and you have the proof of it, you should be able to just bring that to the Yeah. DMV. Say, I have the the disabled rating and get the DV plate rather than one with the handicap symbol. Right. And at least then the state is recognizing, you know, we have we're making a recognition of the disabled veterans. And if there's a metered parking place and you can park in it without having to pay, great. But just recognizing disabled veterans the way other states do with the DV plate instead of a handicap parking facility. That's my opinion, my thoughts on it. Mhmm. But it would take a different license plate to do it rather than that license plate, but not take away that plate because that's important. And

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: what does that process look like? I guess that's, like, probably a better kind

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: of question for counsel. We just asked for a license plate to be made for Yeah. For to support soccer.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: No. But I I I personally have never gotten the right process for a for a license plate.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yeah. There's through transportation. Yeah. Yes, please. It was through transportation.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: I'm

[Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault (Member)]: confused about what's wrong with it as it's written.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: I don't understand what the problem is.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: Can I yes? Yeah. Because the way it's written for a sorry, this for a veteran to get a disabled plate, all Vermont offers is this handicapped plate. Right. Have to qualify. You'd have to qualify to be handicapped to get a disabled plate at the Metro.

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: A civilian's definition A of

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: civilian's definition of disabled, but you can have a VA rating from 0% up to a 100% for dis for disability, be it just be considered as a disabled veteran, but not qualify for that plate. This would be a recognition of disabled veterans by having a DV plate.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: Okay.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: There's there's a different way that they look at it.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: With no discrimination.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: With no discrimination.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Oh, no. I got No. Was Evans is gonna finish the question. Yes. Got pissed on. Hango.

[Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault (Member)]: So the discrimination is against

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: Oh, I don't see it as discrimination.

[Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault (Member)]: Oh, okay. You said so I was confused. So can would it be possible to just add language to the existing criteria for the disability to include also veterans who have anywhere on that scale?

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Do you really bring up a certain percentage, you mean?

[Sandra "Sandy" Pinsonault (Member)]: Or any disability rating at all, depending on how generous or inclusive

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: So we include anything we want.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: That's what mister Burke was referring to. Okay. Different qualifying thresholds as a percentage of whether it be for homestead exemptions on your property taxes or even a And I don't know

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: the Okay.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: I don't know the federal restriction on the use of this if you can take or the date its qualifications. So you couldn't say, okay, you have to have that medical form or a disability rating to the VA of x percent. I don't know if then you can use that if that is federally controlled. So, pissed off, hang of a Nugent.

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: So my husband was 100% disabled because of his brain cancer. He had all his arms, I mean both arms, both legs, but he couldn't, he'd fall down every 12 feet. So if I'd had a handicap sticker, which I did end up getting one of those placards, but if I had a license plate for a year and a half, because it took me a while to get that thing, I could have just parked much closer and not felt guilty that I was parking without one because I did a couple of times because I had to. But that's a classic, I mean he was 100%, but he didn't qualify for the ambulatory wheelchair sticker.

[Kate Nugent (Member)]: And that happens more than you know.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: I agree with that.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Hango, Nugent, Morgan.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: I'm good now. She

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: passed last time, she's angry.

[Philip Jay Hooper (Member)]: It feels to me that maybe This is what I understand about what this bill would do. That in Vermont, we have a disabled plate for civilians. We also have a disabled veteran's plate. Is that true? So all this bill does would extend parking privileges to people who have the disabled veteran's state in Vermont or from somewhere else. It doesn't, as far as I'm understanding, wouldn't require us to change the plate itself. Requires the privileges to go with the plate.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yeah, but the qualifications for this plate, it's still a medical

[Philip Jay Hooper (Member)]: Yeah, but it wouldn't touch that, I don't think, right? Because it's just affecting privileges that go to the plate we already have for veterans.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: But I think they already apply.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: They already apply if you have that.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: But this plate, I think it's civilian or veteran, the application is the same. Now, if you just add a veteran's, you want to extend it to anybody who has a veteran's plate. That's a

[Philip Jay Hooper (Member)]: Okay. So we have two so it's the same

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: application Right. For

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: So that that's why speaking about a DV plate, so now you're you're creating another category. Right? Veterans, disabled veterans, disabled veterans, and DV Mhmm.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Veterans. Okay, that's not what

[Philip Jay Hooper (Member)]: I understood, guess. It sounded like their veterans have a different

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: threshold, or maybe we need them to or something. Well, you could. Yeah.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Sorry. That's fine. That's fine.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yep. Over to Morgan.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: So it sounds like if I hear you correctly, Bob, it would do you immense good if somebody were willing to put into the legislation, if we were gonna press forward, a percentage that would align, give somebody that status, it wasn't nebulous, not when I say not fair to say nebulous, but

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: it is a different bar

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: to get that wheelchair symboled disability plate due to ambulatory conditions, as you stated. And so, that would take away some of that component to get into that, what I guess, let me, for lack of a better, and call it the gray area of somebody being physically, truly physically disabled versus not, you could, I guess you could, I'm just playing devil's advocate, just throw out, that number of saying that you could encompass a greater group of people, whether that's we agree or disagree, that's good or bad, I don't know, just the thought. And then to further add to it, like Bob said, it's it's, it may be worth, I don't know, know, not certainly maybe within this bill worth a deeper look or dive to go. Is everything just one standard? You know, the fishing license, yeah, at 60, the the $40,000 tax exemption at 50. Take it all, like, pick a number fifty, sixty, 70, what whatever I don't know. Is that worth, because I think that's what you're struggling with. Right, Bob? I'm here if

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: I'm hearing you correctly. Well, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask But be brutally honest. I'm not looking I'm gonna ask somebody to come to you with a different similar issue.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: Okay.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Hunting and fishing licenses, 60%. The legislation says certificate from the Veterans Administration. Yep. Right? So I've got a I've got a army retired on a disability, 60%, not rated through the VA. He cannot get a free hunting or fishing license.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Does he get it from

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: the military? The military. The legislation specifies certified by the Veterans Administration. So that that statute needs another sentence. So, Or,

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: go ahead. But discharge retirement is due to disability.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: Well, there's nothing says that couldn't care.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: No. No. No. No. I mean, if we're gonna continue to work on this, we might as well have continuity within the function.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: That's what I'm driving at.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yep. I I think the I think the fairest way is to create a different a DV. Yeah. And you're not touching this, and you're creating another category, or disabled, specifically for disabled veterans. This person is disabled and happens to be a veteran.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: And I believe I believe Maine and New Hampshire, I've seen both have a plate that literally says disabled veteran on them. Yeah. I believe I've seen it in both states.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: But to representative Morgan's point, I would I would put a limiting percentage. Yes. Yep. Yep. Agree. A minimum percentage. Yep. Rate. Because you got

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: a guy at 10% tinnitus. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. So Make it at a threshold that's starting to get within what Bob is interpreting to say is within reasonable.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Mhmm. That doesn't have to be only physical. It's certain Sure. It should be other No. It shouldn't

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: be. No.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: Yes. This

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: bill. I

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: think yeah. No. Yeah. No. Absolutely. You and me on that one. Absolutely.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: And and I think

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: most veterans would concur with what he said. They would go, you know, I think that's kind of a you know, and it doesn't have to be 50. I'm just throwing that out as a number. Yep. Mhmm. You know, I It's my wife. Like I said, I don't have a specific dog in the race in terms of where that's true. So, it's the topic. Come to that. But yes, I've always thought that was interesting that one was 51 was 60. Well, random, I sort of guess.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: All our guys haven't pulled the tape. Yeah, there

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: you go.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Notwithstanding the hunting and fishing license issue, because that just brings a whole new dimension to this bill, I think we should talk to Damian Leonard from Legislative Counsel, because he was, for a very long time, the military ledge council. And he is now the transportation Correct. Ledge council.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: What a convenient nexus of portfolio management in this particular conversation.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: He could do a 101 on license plates, you know, specialty license plates.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Damien Damien would have the I'd work for Damien. He would have the inherent knowledge of how things have come.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: You might know the specificity 100%.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: He sat at the table and drafted the language for probably most of these veterans. Representative Hooper.

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: I I suppose this would be a bad time to bring up that you can't get a a veteran's legislature plate.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Oh, what? My god. Legislature.

[Melissa Jackson (Administrator, Vermont Veterans' Home)]: The plague.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Don't push your luck.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Slam a bee right in front of it. Wow. And just like I had, like, two connecting

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: lines in my house.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Really, like, dazed. That joke? Yeah.

[V.L. Coffin IV (Member)]: I'll be okay without that.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Okay. Good. Good. I was like, that is

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Nice try, Bob.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: It's kind of either former legislators or just now.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yeah. Yeah. You do that?

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Attach that under this bill. Redefining veterans

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: for the purpose of that bill. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Enough crowd work at the table here. Valid. Alright. We got a couple of things to noodle on with this one. Mhmm. Any questions for mister Burke while we have him in

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: the witness chair? Nope. Alright. Thank you for that. Hango.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: I was wondering, since we don't get to see you

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: very often,

[Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: do you have anything

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: for us for future? Oh,

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Since you asked. The email that you sent from looking for support for representative

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Tina? Purely informational. I'm not looking for support for anything and neither is the caucus.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Yeah, it's just it's a psychedelic. So, it's treatment for PTSD, TBI. It's psychedelic Psychotropic conduct. Psychotropic. It's from an African bush root. Bush root. No. It's different than No. It's different than that. The so the the VA has done some some test case and some research in

[Robert Hooper (Member, Burlington)]: in the psychotropic spread.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: It's not mainstream. So it's not it's not allowed in The US. It's not allowed in Canada. Oh, no. It is allowed in Canada and Mexico. International Olympic Committee has it as banned substance. I just I I looked up if somebody wants. I have a paper from Stanford Medical that I was reading just before I came over here. It kinda watched Johns Hopkins was doing a lot of research on this as well in the last Could have been that. That's the one that popped up Yeah. From 2025. So it's just an FYI.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: So for people who are listening, this is purely as a courtesy for the National Guard and Veterans Affairs Caucus member to share with colleagues in an easy way, which was through email, a letter that was signed by a number of retired military and government officials in support of this experimental therapy.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: And I going to reach out to my colleague in Texas to see what he knows about the reference to ongoing, trials, ongoing research in Texas.

[Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And I believe is going to have a bill on it at some point. Just curious kind of an FYI. Thank you, though.

[Robert Burke (Director, Vermont Office of Veterans Affairs)]: Cool. Anything else?

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Thank you for your time, sir.

[Michael Morgan (Member)]: It's all. Thanks, Bob.

[Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Alright. That's a wrap for formal work at the table. All have bad stuff moving around right now and no shortage of bills and email volume to work on for the remainder of the day. So we will do administrative office hours for the rest of our time in the buildings. Thank you, sir.