Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Alright. We are live. Alright, everyone. Welcome to house government operations and military affairs. We are joined with our counterparts from the senate, senate government operations for this joint hearing. It is 02:30 on January 20, and we have counsel Tucker Anderson with us, and we're gonna be reviewing, reports, repeal survey process that this committee has been undergoing for a little while and just working with our counterparts and colleagues to make sure we're all swimming in the same direction on this project. It's something that seems to have not been done for quite some time now. So as we're continuing our work on government accountability across the board, this is not a glitzy example of it, but what is deemed to be a necessary one. With that, council.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Good afternoon, Tucker Anderson, Legislative Counsel. How would you like me to proceed? Would you like me to give you some updates on how the process has unfolded so far? Do a little table setting perhaps for your conversation with your senate counterparts. That sounds like a wonderful start. Alright. Well, the update is that this Friday is the deadline that you set out in your reports repeal memo for all of the committees of both the House and the Senate. All the surveys have gone out. One exception exists out there, and that's that the legislative council attorneys that work with the human services and health care committees in the house and Senate health and welfare in the Senate prepared their own lists prior to the start of the session. Comprehensive lists. It not only encompass the reports repeal survey, but include quarterly reports that come to those committees, ongoing reports that are biennialized. So a much broader scope, much more comprehensive list than what we put together for the reports repeal. And acknowledging that that effort was put into it and that I would not or perhaps could not duplicate it, I sent emails to the chairs of those health care and human services committees and asked them to reply directly based off of those lists with their recommendations for how repeals could be incorporated into the work that you're all doing. And those emails went out last week touching base and letting them know that that's how the process would carry forward and that I would interrupt feedback once the committee starts moving forward with the committee bill. There's also the reason that that took slightly longer is that there was also some confusion, based on reports lists that were sent to every single committee in the house and senate, not produced by me or this committee for the reports repeal survey, and, committee chairs expressed some confusion about which list they were supposed to be using or referring to. The timing was very poor on that.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I don't have a Senator Clark.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: I'm just curious if any senate committee other than health and welfare has actually had you in to go through all these reports. Given that we have three hours a day, I had not fully taken this task on board. But maybe we could speak offline because making the time to do this work is a big ask right now.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: No other senate committee has, on board this week except for state government operations. So senate go ops last week, scheduled me to testify about their survey. And, before jumping into a vivid section of the list, I recommended that instead they discuss their survey with all of you for the following reasons. You started with the list last session and had an opportunity to do a full analysis of the reports that were listed here, whether they had been submitted, and an opportunity to communicate with the agencies tasked with providing these reports to the general assembly. So my recommendation or efficiency's purpose was to have some discussion with the house government operations committee about the work that you've done before having legislative counsel in the senate gov ops committee go through a line by line dissection of the reports and the survey.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Representative Hooper, Randolph.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: What is the vimisection?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: It is a dissection that takes place while the creature is still alive.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Pardon me for not knowing that, but that is where my mom would

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Take little cat building serious here.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Being right.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Just for anybody listening, Tucker, the results of these surveys that you get back by Friday will become a bill, which will start in the House with us, with this committee. And anyone who has not replied will see in the draft of the bill that those reports are to be repealed. Is that correct?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: That is correct. Yes, the failure to respond by the deadline is interpreted by this committee as an indication that the reports should be repealed. All of them. All of the reports in the survey.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Senator Clarkson.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: That's okay. I'm happy with yourselves. And might there be an extension for extenuating circumstance? Perhaps.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: But as a reminder, the bill will not be passed by this committee. It has to go to the house and then pass out of the house, and then it will go to senate government operations where there will be further opportunity to add, amend, or change as necessary. So really, the deadline is the first stop on the train line, not the last. Right.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Representative Hango.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And I think in all of this, we need to remember that we won't just take the bill as Tucker drafts it and pass it out of this committee. We will take testimony on it. So if House Agriculture has not, I'm just going pick on that for the heck of it, if they have not returned their reports to us, then they are welcome to come in and testify and say, we need to keep this, this, and this report, but we want to repeal some others. And the third option is to extend for another biennium to see if they really need the report.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Senator Gallimore.

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, it seems like I picked the seat, the one seat that would emphasize my stature.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: I'm here.

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: I don't think anybody can actually see me on the screen, But that's okay. I have a fairly

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: loud voice.

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: So procedurally, if I could suggest to my four colleagues, as we go through each of these reports, we either say yes or no. And it seems like that would be the way to do this. Unless there's serious discussion about these are the folks that have done the work. Yes. We have not delved into this at all.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: So, mister chair, I would be interested as we go through this to hear what the reason I'm sure you will.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: I'm sure you will. I know the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Because I'm not sure I should vote if I haven't read them. Okay. Just saying, maybe we

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: should only vote if you have read them. If we haven't read them, that's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: a good reason not to get them. Not necessarily.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Okay. Thank

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: you very much.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: So I just want to make it clear that our committee did this work last session. So it might be a little difficult to recall from memory why we made the decisions that we made about the individual reports. I would have to seriously look back at my notes to understand why I made the recommendation I did, because we each took a couple of reports and dealt into We talked to the agencies. We talked to whoever the report was originating from. And then also spoke to people in committees that were ultimately getting the reports. So it might be a little hard to do that explanation. We probably should Could we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: then just start going through this? Yeah, and see what you chose to keep and what you chose.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: We are prepared to do so.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: That makes sense.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Are we?

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Anything further from Thompson?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: I don't think so. No, that'll

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Eugene. Just for, do you want to just work from there and you stay there, or do you guys want move out there? Our

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: lead on this project was Rut Nugent.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Yeah, she's been in the central warehouse for all of the

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: feedback. I was more of an investor. I'm going to stay with you. You don't need to let her go. I always hold them close. I could stick with seat.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Nugent, how are you?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: I'm good. I

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: don't have a lot to add from what Tucker just to let you know about the process, which is what Lisa also described, is that we split up these reports that our government operations committee was assigned. Or we split up the reports that we normally get, by each individual on our committee so that we could, not all have a lot of work to do, And we can tackle it. Should all have a spreadsheet that I sent to our committee and your Senate committee as well. I've never actually counted. So there's 19 reports on here.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: And it

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: sounds like we want to go report by just share each person's recommendation. So this spreadsheet came from Tucker originally, and it has a link to the statute that is relevant for on the left hand column. And often, that is where you find most information as far as the agency that is tasked with creating the report and also possibly the person who does it. And so from that, each, group of people or person on our committee went to that statute, read it, looked into what the report entailed, communicated with the agency, and then, heard back from them about whether the report was still relevant. And then, there's a few notes. So there's a few breadcrumbs in terms of how we got to the recommendations that we made. But the three recommendations were either to repeal it so it's not useful anymore, extend it that it's useful but maybe not permanent. So we should keep getting it until the next time that we do this reports review, which does come up every five years, I think. When was the last time we reviewed them?

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Don't know many times. It

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: is a biennial reports revealed, so it is supposed to come up once a biennium. And if you choose to extend a report, you extend it until a review four years in the future. So you pass over review of the report next biennium and save it for 2030.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: May I tack on to that question? Which is, so then why, if it's a biennial review, or a bi biennial review, why do we have so many that have already expired in 2020? Why are we revisiting? I don't get the expiration column.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: That is because in the twenty nineteen-twenty twenty biennium, there was no reports repeal because of the COVID response and focus on those issues. In 2022, House government operations declined to take up the, reports for repeal review and last biennium process stalled, specifically because committees did not return their surveys. And it would have just resulted in the a bill proposing to repeal all of the reports due to the General Assembly if it were in the list. Thank you for that historical context.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Representative Hango.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And I just want to build on that and say that when we heard that, that it really hadn't been looked into for that many years, we felt it of utmost importance that we just do it, no matter how difficult or painful it was going to be, that we really needed to do it.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: I find it exhilarating. It's like organizing your closet or something.

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: That's why you're the lead.

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: A bookshelf of reports. Yes.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: We are organizing three ring binders with dust on them. Yes.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Also, it'll help our government partners do their work better so that we make sure that we get the reports that we still want. Right. So the last column is retain, which is the recommendation is to keep it forever. So I didn't get to that point, in case you're wondering. So, Mr. Chair, should I just call on people in order of reports?

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I will hand this

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: over to you, and you navigate those. You need this. Sorry.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: So VL and I mean

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: Okay. No problem. So the first one with the, court administrator from the court administrator's office, the report from the superior court on public records. This report's never been submitted.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Oh, god. That's right.

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: Also, I couldn't find anything where it says they had to have the written. It's a request. It's a request. It has expired in 2020. So the feeling I had on it was we've never missed it from the point when it was first asked for, okay, in 2018, that it hasn't been missed. But if we needed the information, we could request it.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Okay. The information's available, but we don't need it in report form?

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Correct.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Alright, so repeal

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: would be

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: the So I would I would suggest repeal as it expired in 2020. It's now 2026. And with not looking at these items, take some of the workload that we would try to force on them and let the courts do. What the court needs to do. That would be my recommendation on that.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: I guess I'm wondering what the intent of the report was because I actually have a concern when we, the legislature, ask agencies or the administration to do things that they just don't do. And so I'm a little curious what the intent of the report was and if that information actually might be valuable. So I've got I made two extra columns on mine. One was that I needed more information and one was that it doesn't need to come here. And so I am a little curious about what why we asked for that report in

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: the first I would have to reread it

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: to Okay.

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: Go further into it.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: I think I think there was a clause in there that it recommended that they submit a report, but it didn't say. Some said they must submit a report by certain deadlines. Some said it was suggested. This was a suggested, but it never said must or shall. And they never did it. Nobody ever requested it, I guess. Did you

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: talk to Terry about its value and whether it was valuable or whether was emails. Or is it just always done, and therefore we could always just call up the data

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: if we needed it, or whatever the report's about. Public records.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: I mean, did Terry say it wasn't particularly valuable? Is that why we didn't

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: Hango?

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: Sandy was the key point on the emails.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: I have a suggestion that we go through what House Government Operations recommends. And since we completed our survey, we put it in the bill. And when it comes to you all, if you want to do an extra dive into it, you do that dive, and then you can amend it as however you want to. And of course, it'll come back to us. And if whatever you're recommending is reasonable, I'm sure we'd concur with it. How's that sound?

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: It sounds like, let's move it along. Good idea.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: That sounds like a legislative process.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Thank you.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: That's political.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Ref Watters, that makes you have the next one, would you like to?

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: I do. The Genuine Progress Indicator is an alternate way to analyze macroeconomic performance in the state of Vermont using different factors than maybe what they would use normally. Think it's the state. Right, thank you. And unfortunately, it's a partner, it was a partnership with somebody at the University of Vermont. That person unfortunately passed away, the person who was running that project. There's currently no money appropriated for the project. The report hasn't been issued since 2018. So it seems to me like the avenues to continue this report are And I believe my recommendation was that we not do There's it no one to do it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: So we repeal it. Although wouldn't it be nice to know if we

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: were making progress on things? In this particular, man, this was a really specific

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: we're seeing what we're using as committees, what reports we're familiar with. And if we're not super familiar with it, it might be an indication that we're not using it as much as we.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I have Hango, then Clerks.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: And I just wanted to say there's a little asterisk here on REV Waters Evans bill report that says not indicated to be written. In a lot of cases,

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: statute that a report needs to be delivered to the committee in writing.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: So sometimes agencies or organizations are delivering them in testimony, which may or may not happen cases, every year. If it's not specifically written in statute that it needs to be written and needs to be delivered annually or quarterly or whatever, then it may not happen.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Erin Clarkson? So, I think Brian and I are the only people in the room who actually got this report every year when it was brought to, or every other year, when it was actually done, I guess, at the beginning of the biennial. When we had Sue, Pat McDonald's sister, who ran that office in state government, and we have this report. So actually, I have seen its value, and it informed your work in government accountability somewhat. So it actually used to have value and actually was presented in a way that was very compelling and interesting for us to see actually how we were doing and what we were making progress on in terms quality of life in Vermont, the economic indicators. I mean, there were a whole range of progress measures that were used. It was actually I remember it being useful. For seven years now. I know, darling. But we It used to have it. And it used to be productive. So we can maybe chat about this further. I just want you to know that for those of us who actually were, did get this report, it

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: was useful. And I I I believe, if I'm recalling seeing this in my first term in house general, think, look at some

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: of the policy choices. So Anyway, just saying it. At once, it at one point, it was useful.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Yes. I think in this matter, it's not whether or not it was useful. There's no one who can do it, and there's no

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: money for it. It can't happen. That's tough.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Right. Hooper, you have the next one.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Which one? This is Burlington.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Do you want to take it?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Well, I'm going

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: to say repeal the ones that I'm but you can say.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: This is the treasurer's office level meetings, the committee of many people that are involved in local development. It happens, but it hasn't happened. I don't know if anybody's got it. A group that meets it to call the treasurer and we're talking about just before the treasurer made the call. Do you know anything about it in addition to that?

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Bob, it looks like from your notes on the spreadsheet that it's kind of at will. It is helpful when it's needed to keep it. Yes. Rep Morgan, you have the next one.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Report on drone usage by the law enforcement agencies. The Commissioner of the Department of Public Safety, you can see her answer there if you look at the spreadsheet, was that they are neutral on extending this. Feel that there may be some legitimate privacy concerns, and therefore that probably if we had to on the side of caution, have reason to continue to report the information. So, pretty self explanatory.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Thank you. Rhett Hooper, the younger, has the next one.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Oh, that's Retention. Retention. Extending?

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Extend at the moment. Yes.

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: You can probably guess. Struggling to figure out what we needed these for. I think

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: we should be able

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: to make progress.

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: I didn't get I got I left a lot of voicemails, and, I don't have compelling reason to say that we need to keep this.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Are you talking about the questions?

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: One, two,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: 3, Department of Defense. Oh. I

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: mean, we're still discussing hold on. Were we still we were off the drones, and we're moving on to Yeah. Rotation work. Okay. Thank you. For a

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: report on the drones given. Indeed.

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: Yes. The use of tasers, maybe. That seems like but, like, if if I'm the one having the answer, I don't Somebody else wants to put that data, they can make a case for it.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Senator Clarkson? Are

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: we on corrections?

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: So, this is of concern for anyone interested in budgeting, because a lot of budget in the last few years by the administration has been based on vacancies. So I think, I don't know if this report was in or that was, they have a huge morale issue. This is the department you've heard the report from HR, this department has a huge morale issue. This department needs our time, attention and money. Think it's indicative of some of the This report is indicative of some of the challenges this department faces. And we're responsible for overseeing the departments and state government. I I think this deserves digger deep bigger, bigger, deeper digging.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I got where you're going on that inverted yep. Thank you.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Senator Vahosty.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: I agree with senator Clarkson. And in addition, we've heard pre regular, assertations by the union that temporary employees state government are being misused to avoid providing benefits. So I've got a pretty hard disagree on the repeal of that. Yeah.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Nothing back, no work and then having to stay for another

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: You don't actually have a recommendation, Cheap? That's correct. I think that it's not fun that we're doing this exercise and how there's extreme disconnect between the legislatures that make the decisions that we need to do these things, and then the people who are like, oh, we need that data, we should look into it. Cheaven, do it. Nobody's read that in this room, and maybe, okay, you guys can put on your reading list. But I think these are asks that are

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: So, what I understood at the beginning part of this particular conversation was they were non responsive to outreach?

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: Yeah. And it's probably like, yes.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: I left some phone some voice mails with people who

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Okay. So why do we why do we follow-up on this one again? Because we still have a little clock it. So let's mark this for further follow-up to get feedback from corrections. We'll start an email chain with some folks over there.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: To me, that's my larger concern about government accountability. If we've asked for information and they're just ignoring us, that's a problem. I don't think just saying, actually, you didn't give it to us, you don't have to anymore, is not reasonable response to them just ignoring the legislature. I

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: guess what I'm trying to say is that there is a disconnect between the decision making and the information that we need to make those decisions in a lot of ways. And right now, we're spending time trying to figure out how wide that disconnect is, and for what reason. I don't really Okay, let's keep these reports for the next time we do this exercise, and then have

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: Well, no. I think

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: We have ambiguity about the relevance of all this information. Agencies that are understaffed don't have the resources to deliver on this stuff. And we know this, and we still are where's information that you can't give us because there's just hard people

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: to do it? I think this is really helpful. And also just win it.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: One time.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: I think it's really helpful to think about this and why a lot of the state workers have a lot on their plate. And I wouldn't assume that they're just necessarily ignoring us. But I think that seems like more of a philosophical discussion. And I think what we're trying to do right now is just to make sure everyone in the Senate of Ops knows the status of the reports. So maybe it would make sense to try to just keep going and then

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: move ahead to the further. I next

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: had a question as to where this report was actually supposed to end up. Is it supposed to end up in our committee?

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: I think that's why it's on the Yeah,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: that's what I thought. So, I'll think about that. Never mind. Okay.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Patrick, correct?

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Council. Congressman Anderson, Legislative Counsel. I was going to offer first a response that this was supposed to be a quarterly report submitted to your committees by the Department of Corrections, but there was some overlap with another reporting duty, and that reporting duty was eventually codified into the FSA Section three thirty one, and it requires the Commissioner of DHR submit an annual report containing information about all of the temporary employees in state government. And I looked, it has been submitted annually, and it does contain information about the temporary employees within the corrections department.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: So, that's helpful.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, that's very helpful.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: So, with that knowledge, would it be okay to repeal this one from us as we get it yearly? We don't have to request it before. It appears that it's duplicative. Yeah, so we could leave.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Just leave that one right over.

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: Good luck. An owner do cleanup process.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: All about cleaning up.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Really? Representative Hooper or Burlington? Next

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: time, yeah.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Well, Sandy's comment, corrections, I think, this point is a different problem. And if we're seriously going to monitor the problem, their staffing levels and their contribution or extraction from the economy they will rise for quality over time it's significant for a lot people in correction etc Three times what they shouldn't be because they're it's called in for eight hours and have to stay over for sixteen. And they just know slides.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Thank you. Rep Morgan.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Yep, State Ethics Commission annual report recommending, as pretty self explanatory, maintaining the report and revisiting it on the next cycle. Thank you. Pretty straightforward.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: The next one is me. This one is performance accountability requirements in contracts and grants, and spoke with the current performance officer. And this report is not a good fit for their office. There are more consultants who design evaluation criteria, but they don't have insight into the programs that are being evaluated. So, it's unclear if it's, Being used and it also appears to be duplicative with other grant reporting requirements. So, the recommendation is to repeal that one. Doctor Hooper of Burlington, we have the next one.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Greenland Security retirement plan doesn't exist.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: On the notes, it says to retain it. When you first did your research. So that maybe I should have put that under repeal. Yep.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Yep. So it's repeal. That one's repeal.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Next one is a Cooper Randolph, I think. Justice.

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: Stronger opinions will prevail. So I'm gonna say the senators who feel like looking into this can do that. I guess you can put me on the same sort

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: of follow-up list if you want.

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: I also did not get in touch with

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: you. Perfect.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: The next report, Brett Boigny?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Is she here? Yes.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Yes, I said retain this report. This is the EMS advisory commission committee, and they are developing and maintaining a five year statewide plan for coordinated delivery of EMS and Vermont. This work is currently ongoing. So at the moment, retain it, but maybe not fully. Thank you.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Bret Morgan

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: is your

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: last but not.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: The Department of Public Safety licenses issued to service members and veterans, and Department of, Public Safety's recommend repealing it because the data to them is not something that they are able to track, and I don't think it really has value to them for their agency. I would think it'd be something more track I know, for instance, as a veteran, that the DMV tracks that data, and they have that data for when you when you renew a license, they ask you your status, and they get that from you. And you don't have to declare you are, but you can't. And you get a little guy saluting on the bottom of your license that owns that. So I I don't see it as a item of use to the Department of Public Safety. So they recommend three p a.

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: So, Mike, can I ask you, is that just driver's licenses?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Yes. Because we

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: thought it might or phishing or Yeah.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: And if they get it was deeper than that, it wouldn't that have an OPR nexus to it, though. I'm trying to recall now.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Okay.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: I would think. I I have to I could look at that, but that's a good question. Yeah. That's what we thought

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: when we first looked.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Do you recall again? I don't do you recall it from there? We haven't

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: discussed it. It says department of public safety, so my assumption was not OPR.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Yeah, exactly. There's no don't

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: see Phishing is also a question because we give other licenses to veterans. We do.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: That is true. It said Department of Public Safety, I wondered if it was law enforcement certifications. I had questions about

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Actually

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: actually, the next

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: one is Secretary of State.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Sure. But we have the links that hyper over to the actual

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: just clicked

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: License for an individual to look back at License by another state or has received a designation by the US Armed Forces, electrician or equivalent. So these are, like like Oh, so so reciprocal. Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Intraceptical. I said that's the next one, the secretary of state one.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Well, again, that would be yeah. That would then be a secretary of state database. Again, not a DPS function in That's my why

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Okay.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: But am I missing something? Click on

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: the right one.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: The, oversight of all of those inspections is the division of fire safety, which is within DPS. Public safety. I do have to fortunately or unfortunately, but I wanted to jump back momentarily to the electronic control devices report, representative Hooper was covering. All of that information is available on a public facing website. It is updated quarterly, which is something that is not required under the specific language and reports requirement. And in fact, it's put on a form that is created by the BCJC, and they allow you to view and download the forms for any report of the use of an electronic control device. And the only reason I know that is that Senate government operations last biennium took look at this, and Senator Norris did a full report and review of the use of electronic control devices. So just noting that if it's something that is of value moving forward, in the reports repeal bill, you could always codify the requirement that BCJC continue to do what they are voluntarily giving on

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: their own website.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: That's not

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: my recommendation. Publicly releasing information about the use of electronic control. You, Tucker.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Great.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Back on mine then, I'd be happy to reengage Commissioner Morrison, and I'll have to get back. And Or to follow. Yeah. To be honest, because I don't want to sit here and try to bat the inside if I'm we need more, I'll be honest. I'm not going to bat anyone.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: I believe Rep Stone is online, and he's available to report on the next one. I am. Hello, everyone.

[Rep. Mary-Katherine Stone]: So, I had Act 119 from the year 2018, and that's just focused on improving professional licensing pathways for service members and veterans in Vermont. There's more detail to it than that, but that's the basic gist of it. And I contacted the SOS office, and they said that due to a whole bunch of reasons, it just fell through the cracks. So there was a new system that came on board. The NGLP system was launched in July 2018 right after this act was passed. Then they had, like, a change in administration staff. Ultimately, it was just a my bad, and it was overlooked. So the recommendation is for that we propose the reports continue in 2026 so that we can look at the data again after that collection and then revisit the relevance of it after doing so.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Great. That's great. Thank you. Next one is Rep Coffin.

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: Okay. So Yeah. This, again, refers to, act one nineteen, different paragraph, on but it's, again, service members, veterans meeting criteria to obtain food, lodging, licenses. And if I can jump ahead to the next one down, which is saying it's in mine as well, from the Department of Motor Vehicles and for veteran certified to perform inspections. I believe that we should keep both those reports based on we passed a bill last year to try to promote getting veterans moving to Vermont given the tax break. And this could be one of the metrics to see if we're still if we're getting an increase Free point. In those veterans coming in that are doing these kind of jobs. That's that's my opinion on it that we should extend that.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: So it's a report on who actually takes advantage and gets these licenses. Got

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: it. Got it. Interesting data sets that

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: look at represent oh, I'm sorry. Senator Velowski.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: I'm wondering if there was any conversations. Our committee talked a little bit about condensing those all into one report that was biennial rather than annual. And I just want I don't I'm not sure if you had any of that conversation. I'm also wondering if you were in touch at all with the Governor's Veterans Advisory Council on their suggestions on those reports. No. Okay. I was

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: just going by the reports and the contacts we made.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Okay, thank you. Rep Coffin, would you are you recommending to extend it and then look at those metrics again?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Yes. Okay, great.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Alright, next one is Rep Waters Evans.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Yes, this. I spoke with the assistant auditor, and he said that he is only required to do this report when there is a privatization contract to review, and that he is happy to continue doing so, and that that office would be happy to continue doing so in perpetuity. So I believe that the recommendation is that we should retain it. That means keep it forever, right?

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Yep. Okay. I just moved that incorrectly noted before.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: Okay. Not so good at reading categories, but I was really good at talking to the assistant. No, think I did.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: He is like conversationalist.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: So, it's done? No, I think we should retain it. We can just keep it. Because if it's useful and he's doing it anyway, their office is happy to do it.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Yeah,

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: I think I had put the wrong column, so

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: I did

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: it now.

[Rep. Chea Waters Evans (Ranking Member)]: All right. Press Boyden. Government accountability. Sorry. Move that.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Yes. The Department of Human Resources positions of seasonal employment. I chatted with Catherine Russell over there, and she let me know that they have been filing this report since 2020. And since then, the legislature has not requested any follow ups on the information. The information can also be found online on our database And that this report is very labor intensive. And she said, I don't believe it adds value for a DHR or the state of Vermont. And she issued a whole memo to me, or to us. So her overall recommendation was to repeat it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Great. Because it's duplicative. I mean, it's already in the big HR report.

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: Yes, it's available elsewhere. But they still issue it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: I love the fact that Katherine Russell ended up there. Many of you may remember, a committee assistant here for many years.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Doctor. Hooper, Doctor. Bennington, I think you have the next one.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: This was problematic because the officer of quarantine administrator was completely uncooperative, maintaining a position that they won't hold or deploy any temporary employees when you have a newspaper article in your hand right in front of your sitting bay, they deploy a lot of but they had no real desire apparently to talk about it.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Are you recommending that we retain that report or?

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Sure. Good luck. Think I'm also recommending.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: So the judiciary hasn't submitted this? They were reluctant to continue. Well, I'm unclear.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Yeah, it could have been just because I was asking to.

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: So is that an example where

[Rep. Philip Jay Hooper (Randolph)]: we have

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: a I'm unclear.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: They're. They're only a temporary thing to the moment.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Think to employees, period, state government need us to pay attention to, and how they use them for a bunch of reasons. All right, so Yeah, and Representative Hango. Sure.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: I think maybe because they have not had temporary employees employed in the last two years, they were probably reluctant to say that they wanted to continue to report. So I think extending it would be a good compromise between repeal and retain.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Great. Doctor. Hango, you have the next one. Oh, that was what I was going to say.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: This one is a really specific report that I had to go to appropriations to ask about. And the recommendation is to retain this report even though it is only needed when House Appropriations Committee requests it if the amount recommended by the governor in his or her budget does not match the amount that is recommended by the retirement board or boards. So there is this mechanism in place if there's a disconnect. So I would recommend retaining it so appropriations can do their due diligence if there's a disconnect and request the report. Senator Vinodsky? I see that this is

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: a really big long list of places that it's going. And I'm wondering if there's I see two pathways. One option would be that it only go to appropriations when asked for and the joint legislative pension oversight committee, or that we add the joint legislative pension oversight committee. I am not seeing a long list of individuals or committees that it is going to. So you're working off a slightly different Oh,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: they're by chance. There's six.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: Yeah, so I see House Appropriations, House General, House Government Operations, Senate Economic Development, Government Operations and Senate Appropriations. And I'm wondering if it makes more sense to go

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: to the two Appropriations Committee and pension oversight. I think you're working off from Tucker's spreadsheet and I'm working off from Robert Hugent's spreadsheet, which doesn't include that level of detail. But I will defer to you on what you think would be appropriate places for it to go to since it is by request only. And I think Rutland Hooper of Burlington also had a question about this or no?

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: I'm not entirely sure that the situation exists where the recommendation from boards can be refused by the governor.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Can be what by the governor? Yeah, I don't I just know that if the governor says one thing and the board says another, appropriation somehow has to reconcile that. Former representative Jim Harrison gave me the answer to this, because no one else seems to have used this report.

[Sen. Tanya Vyhovsky]: It's been a long time since the governor's recommended match.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: That could very well be. And all the only folks who have been here that long would remember. So I guess retain and take the recommendation of the senator on which committees should access to that report. Thank you

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: very much. And then the last one was me, and it was connected to the one that Robert Hango just reported on and has the same recommendation.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: There's another one in the bag. On cybersecurity? Oh, that one. Oh, there's one that goes from the Agency of Digital Services on the annual report. Oh, the cybersecurity.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Oh, used to be our committee's jurisdiction, and it is no longer. It's the EDI committee now, Energy and Digital Infrastructure. So that was a real problem for our alleged counsel. They spent a lot of time sifting through how committee jurisdiction has changed and which reports might be going to different committees now, or need to go to different committees. So it pretty much took him all summer to figure all that out, which is why you all are getting this so late in the Senate.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Thanks.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: There's a lot of bad thing that went into this one. Representative Morgan.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Alright. Did my homework while you're all talking on other things. Thank you, sir. But circling back to the Department of Public Safety because I now I my people brain remembers this one. So it's yes. It's not driver's license. The licenses are for the following things. Electricians, plumbers, RNs, nursing assistants, certification inspectors for mechanics, culinary specialists, and there is a fire safety nexus as Yes. Hucker alluded to, but underneath fire safety, it delineates electricians, plumbers, so people of that nature that do that kind of work that would be related to fire safety. So I think that gives even further credence to the fact that this clearly belongs in the real house of OPR, not

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Well, except OPR doesn't oversee those licenses. Right. Right. The Department of Public Safety does. True. True. Fire.

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: Well, no. No.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Because you know this.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: He said

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: fire. He was only talking about fireworks.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: No. Plumber, electrician, all those are overseen by DBS. All of them.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Okay. Well, then, but they well, their words were but, like, we put that they they aren't tracking them, but we can make them, I suppose.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Well, to go back to what VL was saying, if we're interested in seeing the success of other policies, it would be just interesting maybe for another year or two. We could we could put

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: it into the retain. I don't have a real dog in that fight either direction.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Rep Hango? Just

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: to clarify, Rep Morgan, the Department of Public Safety oversees the Division of Fire Safety. And Division of Fire Safety, if I recall from my general and housing days, are the individuals who license those types of trades that work on residential and commercial construction.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: Yeah, that's what I'm I'm reading I'm looking at the last. I did miss the last That's

[Rep. VL Coffin IV]: where it dovetails,

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: but it's Yep. Yep.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Yep. So

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: I didn't read far enough. I I was scurrying to read those twelve eighty. So, so, yeah, we could certainly retain and kick it to the next cycle and have them report.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Great. So extend, so retain it and then check it out again.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Also next time Mike Derocher's in here, you could say we're interested in tracking. This change in the law in terms

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: of

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: military pensions. How many more applicants do you have? We probably have to ask for it.

[Rep. Michael Morgan]: So, yeah, we'll leave it at least another cycle then.

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: That's it. Okay.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: I mean Right. So

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: that's the rundown as far as our jurisdiction's concerned with this

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: with these items. You for doing this work.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: It's been a long process. I mean, we started this in what we

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Yeah. Or I feel like we've been given a much shorter ramp to work on this. No. But even so, I mean, I have another committee that I that I you know, I have over 60 reports that we have to look at

[Rep. Kate Nugent]: Yeah.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: That come to the Senate Economic Development.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Was working diligently to get these things itemized. Like I said, it was a lot of back end.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Yeah, I appreciate that. I'm very curious to see how we get that done.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Rosemary?

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: May I make this suggestion? Because we had to set this arbitrary date of Friday the twenty third to get the ball rolling in the House. Just wait for the bill to come to the Senate. And it'll come to you with your reports being repealed, and then you can change it all. And we'll see

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: what the House Commerce and House Joe did.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: Right. And so in the meantime, you can be doing your research and have some answers ready and see if it matches what the House wants to do. Don't feel like the Senate has to have their answers by Friday.

[Tucker Anderson (Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you, Senator Weston.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: Yeah. This is probably reading all

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: the balance. We even cc'd his Gmail.

[Rep. Lisa Hango (Vice Chair)]: But thank you. And we appreciate that this looks like we're asking for the impossible. By Friday. Yeah, no,

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: you're right. I actually took your earlier suggestion. Are we dismissed?

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: I was about to ask if there was anything else from the table before we broke off for the day.

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: No, I don't have anything. I appreciate your hard work and the ability to get together and chair. And I guess I'm gonna see you all tomorrow.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson]: That's right. Mhmm.

[Sen. Brian Collamore]: At another time. Bingo.

[Rep. Robert Hooper (Burlington)]: Who, what are we doing tomorrow? A secret.

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: Alright. With that, that's a wrap. Thank you very so much for your time, senators. Nikki, can take us off for

[Rep. Lucy Boyden (Clerk)]: the

[Rep. Matthew Birong (Chair)]: day. Committee, we all have different