Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Welcome back everyone to the House Committee on General and Housing, and it is still Tuesday, April 28. We've been hearing about universal design, and now we're turning today is Youth Homelessness Awareness Day, and we have a number of visitors who are gonna testify, and we're gonna start with our own representative, Kate Logan, and with Faber Ellis, who's the executive director of? Elevate Youth Services. Elevate Youth Services. So why don't you two start? Great.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: You, chair and members of the committee. I'm really happy for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is representative Kate Logan. I represent the Chittenden 16 District, which is mostly the Old North End in Downtown Burlington. And I also serve as the director of the Vermont Coalition of Runaway and Homeless Youth Programs, or BCRIP, which is housed at Elevate Youth Services. I also co chair, along with Faber and one other Executive Director of Interaction at Rattleboro, the Vermont Committee to End Youth Homelessness, which brings together state agencies, providers, and young people with lived experience to coordinate our statewide youth homelessness response. I'll briefly introduce our work, what youth homelessness looks like in Vermont and where your partnership is needed. And I'll start by saying that youth homelessness is not inevitable. With targeted coordinated investment, Vermont can ensure that every young person has a place to live and a path forward. I'll start by talking about Bankrupt. We are a statewide coalition of community based organizations serving youth experiencing homelessness across Vermont's balance of state continuum of care. I don't know if we'll talk that much about the continuum of care, one for Chittenden County and then one for the rest of the state, the balance of state continuum of care that coordinate homeless services across the state. Our providers are often the only youth specific services in their regions. Our network was founded in 1981 and is federally funded. As those funds have remained largely flat over the years, services for youth ages 12 to 17 have contracted. We now serve only the Northeast Kingdom, Washington and Windham Counties. We have one provider here, for example, from Memorial County who used to receive this federal funding from us. But as the grant amount stayed the same, while the cost of everything else has increased, they have not been able to continue on as a provider. So there is a service desk there for runaway and homelessness under the eight of 18 in the Lyle County and in many other places in the state as well. More recently, in 2019, HUD's Youth Homelessness Demonstration Program was awarded to VCRIP and has allowed us to expand housing and services for young adults ages 18 to 24 in additional regions. But still, we don't have enough funding for statewide coverage. For our funded agencies, the agencies that are funded through VCRIP federal funds, VCRIP provides also connected infrastructure, technical assistance, data coordination, and systems design so that our network functions as a coordinated response rather than a patchwork. Across the state, with additional funding from state and private funding providers, a range of agencies, in addition to the VCRIP network deliver a continuum of care, outreach, shelter, transitional housing, rapid rehousing, and long term stabilization services for youth experiencing homelessness. In terms of coordination, we have also created a broader statewide body that includes all agencies providing services to homeless youth across the state. That's the Committee to End Youth Homelessness. And we align our work at the statewide level and center youth voice through the balance of state, COCs, Youth Action Board, whose members actively shape programs and policies. Youth homelessness in Vermont is often hidden. Many young people are not in shelters because there are men that serve them. They're couch surfing, they're in unsafe situations, or they're cycling through instability. Others are exiting foster care, juvenile justice system, or hospitals without housing. So, this is not just a housing issue. Housing availability is certainly a big issue for youth, but it's also tied directly to social service availability in schools, workforce instability, and behavioral health needs. When a young person loses housing, they're far more likely to disengage from school and face long term instability, especially in a state with limited housing and transportation options. But this is avoidable. We know what works. Stable housing, carergent, youth centered, trauma informed services leads to strong outcomes. Young people return to school, find work, and build lasting stability. Ending youth homelessness requires alignment across this building. Across all committees, it means investing in a full continuum, prevention, housing, and ongoing support, and in the infrastructure that makes a statewide response possible. From the General and Housing Committee in particular, expanding affordable, accessible housing for young people, especially those who are attempting to exit homelessness or who are exiting systems involvement, is really crucial. And I would even say that a lot of the work that you're doing on middle income housing programs helps to take pressure off the rental market and makes it easier for younger people to access rental housing. And programs like BIP directly benefit homeless youth. And now that's my opportunity to turn to FAVOR to speak more about the local services that our parent organization provides. And in particular, one of the programs that BPRIP funds, the Youth Mental Disease Demonstration Program, provides is transitional housing and two VHIP apartments that were rehabilitated and funded through the VHIP program that prioritize homelessness. Those experiencing homelessness as renters ended up becoming master lease transitional housing units that are managed by Elevate Youth Services. Generally, I'm a favor for who Who's are in St. Albans? No. Not the ones in Albans? Nope, this is Beazerain and Barry. There are more. Great. My name is Faber Ellis, and I am the executive director at Elevate Youth Services. We're the only nonprofit in Washington County devoted exclusively to serving the needs of young people. Thank you for inviting us here today.

[Faber Ellis]: And today I'd like to talk to you about the housing programs and services that it provides. I passed out a brochure that gives you a little information about all of the services by housing is one component. And I'll get to those apartments in a minute because they're at the end of our continuum of services. At Elevate, we have a program called Return House, which is a five unit building Downtown Mary that houses young people in DCF custody who are aging out of DCF, can't be placed someplace, and we prepare them with life skills to move on

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: to individuals. What does it mean, aging out of DCF?

[Faber Ellis]: They're almost 18. It means that they don't have a foster home.

[Jesse Warren]: Sorry, I brought that program. Okay.

[Faber Ellis]: You want to identify yourself? Sure,

[Jesse Warren]: talk, go ahead. Jesse Warren, director of Return of House. When we say aging out, it means that somebody is an older teenager who isn't going get adopted because the likelihood of that happening is very low. Folks don't want to adopt older teenagers. There's no foster So they've been in some foster home, in theory, and they've aged out? No, it means that they're aging out of custody at 18, so when they turn 18, they no longer are required to be in the custody of the state, so they don't have a DCF worker or a family services worker. They're on their own at 18.

[Faber Ellis]: On their own at 18, right? Absolutely. So return house houses for young people at any given time. And then we have what we affectionately call the hop houses that are funded through the Office of Economic Opportunity, the HOP program. Those are, I hope you're familiar, there are two shelters in Plainfield on the former Goddard campus, and we house 16 young people ages 18 to 24 in those houses. And we're building with the creative campus, we're building a community that will support those young people in employment skills, life skills, education, building mentorships and access to other kinds of really positive opportunities.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: How

[Rep. Kate Logan]: many did you say? 16. So you placed two former dorms, eight beds in each dorm. And they're 18, sorry. Yep, 18 to 24. Same thing with the four units that you're talking about. The units are 16 to 18 in Barrie. How long can you stay in the clubhouse? Nine months? Yes, nine months, but we can extend longer if they're working on their plan toward independence.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: So just going back to As you might have seen, we're rather engaged.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I enjoy this. That's great. Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: We're little docative. So going back to the the idea of aging out. So if they're gonna age out at 18, if they are in foster care prior to that, who's are you able to help prepare them for aging out? When they're 16, 17, if somebody's teaching them life skills, check for That's absolutely what return house is. So they're in return house before they're aging out?

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Yes, if they're lucky. Okay.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: That's a really good point, if they're lucky. They could move in at 16 and be there for two years. Some of them, if they're still enrolled in high school for instance at a age 18, they can often stay until they graduate from high school.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Unique to Washington County.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Yeah, it's the only place that this program is located in And every young person in Return House must be referred through DCF, by DCF. They can be referred from any area of the state. Yes.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Gayle? So I have two questions. Is there a common denominator thread that runs through how these kids become homeless?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: There are so many reasons that young people become homeless.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Is there one or two in particular that you see more frequently?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I would say poverty. I'm going to say three. Four. I'm actually not going to limit myself. Poverty, family poverty, family instability due to mental health issues or substance use issues. Many young people who identify as LGBTQ are not able to stay at home, they become homeless or start couch surfing. And they use own substance use and mental health issues.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: So I'm not gonna limit myself to two then, maybe. No, no. So do you find that once those children are homeless, is there any way to get the families any kind of, there is. Do you play a part in that? Yes. Is that through DCF? No. That's through you?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: We run a program called Country Roads and we receive a grant from the federal government called the Basic Center Program. And that program works with folks who are 18 who are homeless or thinking about running away or who had run away. And we work with the young people and their families or guardians and provide family counseling. And while that process is happening, we provide short term housing in community shelter homes. Those are community volunteers who have agreed to open up their homes and care for this young person for up to twenty one days. Then we have intense counseling program as well.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: What would be the next step if at 18, if they were in the hot house and they haven't been able to grasp the support that you're giving them for life skills?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Great question because there are

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: two other programs that you offer. The

[Rep. Kate Logan]: housing program? Yes, so we also have transitional housing program and rapid rehousing program. So we are young people who are able to live independently, are able to pay their rent or provide medical assistance in either their own apartment or in congregate living buildings. And that's the apartments in Barrie that Kate referenced earlier. We were able to have a duplex in Downtown Barrie with three bedrooms in each, and that's our transitional housing program. All of the young people in all of our housing programs have a case manager, and we expect them to meet with case managers regularly, depending on the program and their lead, that decides the frequency of the meetings. But we work on life skills, job development, we work on hygiene. Is it one case manager for the 16 or? No, we have three case managers in op house sixteen. However, they also work with the transitional housing and rapid rehousing. That's excellent. Yeah, it's great. So one thing that we're working really hard on is providing a continuum of services. So if someone is in Return House and they need housing support, they can move to Hop. And then they still have contact with Jesse and the other staff at Return House, but then they are expanding their supports with the case managers and counselors and have access to every single one of our programs. I would like to say also that all of her services are free to the young people. The counseling program does bill Medicaid if it's a possibility. Saudia, if I add something for that? Yes. I will say that I think there's a gap there because you were asking about youth who maybe can't achieve stability and maintain their own independence for

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: housing. That

[Rep. Kate Logan]: is called permanent supportive housing. And we do not have permanent supportive housing in Vermont for young people. And the prioritization process for permanent supportive housing through the coordinated entry system, again, I don't know, like I apologize for all the jargon. I don't know how deep down the rabbit hole you've gone into homeless systems response jargon in this committee. I'm just following the songs you don't need to There are local bodies that you can get into for services, and you go through an assessment process that determines what kind of program you're well suited for. That's called coordinated entry. And one track, like if they recognize, for example, that you need intensive supportive services because of the disability or substance use issues or something like that, you need a longer term, really supportive wraparound services. That's called permanent supportive housing. And the way that prioritization for that in our coordinated entry system works is that youth are at the bottom of the list. So that's a lot of yeah, I could say a lot about that, but I would say that that's a really significant gap. There are actually really amazing models for how to address this gap in Colorado, if you wanted to learn more. I got to visit them personally last year when I was out there. And I think that that is a direction where Vermont could really effectively move to address some of the chronic issues that lead to ongoing homelessness over the course of someone's life that generally see onset in their early adult years. Can you give

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: a I don't know if this is answerable. The numbers you're talking about are eight here, 16 here, 10 there. Do you have a sense that, yeah, I've looked at these numbers, you have a sense that you are meeting the needs of a significant portion of kids who are just homeless and out there, or do you have a sense that there's a lot of kids out there that nobody sees?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I would say there are a lot of kids out there that nobody sees, and there are a lot of kids on waitlists. Very long waitlists that don't ever get prioritized. Okay, help me. So you're 18, you're on the cusp of aging out, and you go to return apps, if you're lucky. And you're allowed to stay there for a fall month?

[Jesse Warren]: If a kid signs an 18 agreement with DCF, meaning that they need meet with that person every month, they are able to stay until they complete high school. And they created that option because some kids are still 18 in their senior year of high school.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: So it's about school. It's about school, yes. Soon as Thank you're you. Out high And so I guess one of the things is, if you are Okay, so you must have been in the foster care system and receiving services in order to be a part of Return House? Correct. Okay. And what if you're not? That was a point that I was going to raise. The only services in Washington County and through most of the state, I state, is the short term shelter program, posthumptote for people who are 18. And that's only available in the NEK, Washington County, Windham County. If you're outside of those service areas, there's limited access to services. And that absolutely needs services for homeless and one line youth who are 18.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: How many beds do they have?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: So our agencies have, so they're host homes, they're families that volunteer to provide services, typically one to two beds per house. So a few in the NEPA, a few in Washington County, a few in Windham County. I know that Spectrum has the capacity to serve, but hasn't really served youth 18 more than once a year from what I've heard from staff there in one of their commissioner designated shelters. And then Windsor County Youth Services has one bed in Windsor County that can be used for unsheltered youth under the age of 18. And then there's kind of nothing on that entire West side of the state below Chittenden County. There's nothing in Bennington. Nothing in Rutland neither. Nothing in Rutland. Where is the one in Windsor County? Windsor County Youth Services in Springdale. The one bed. Wow, okay. So going back to the services that have contracted for 12 to 17 year old. The services that have contracted. We used to have those services available across the entire state. And over what period, has it just because it's level funded in the, okay, over what period of time, since COVID or before COVID? Well, before COVID. We did have nine service providers across the state up until 2022. And that we then reduced down to three. It was already a stretch, let's put it that way. The funding wasn't sufficient for those agencies and then it became untenable. Of the But How do you count? If we have hard enough time counting unsheltered adults, how on earth do you count unsheltered That is such a great example. Or unaccompanied youth. So the schools are actually the closest that record the unaccompanied homeless youth data. So what we know is only from data that the schools collect because youth can't enter into the coordinated entry system on their own. And the agency of education retains that data through McKinney Vento program. And what we've seen in the McKinney Vento program data is that unaccompanied youth homelessness has doubled in the last five years to about 125 youth per year across the state. And we get referred a fraction We of those never see them. And

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: there are some in addition that aren't even in the education system. Right. So it's an under counting. Way under counting.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: And then about four fifty eighteen and 24 year olds in a coordinated entry system annually. Remember that people who are 18 often try to fly really far under the radar because they don't want to be involved in the DCF custody again. We don't even know about it. I was going

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: to ask, so does and thank you, because that sort of alludes to the point. So the youth that are 18 and no longer in school because it's not mandated after 16 are not counted. Unaccompanied and unhoused are not counted.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Unless they are referred to one of our agencies, but they're not included in the agency's

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: And education's in order to be in the return house, they have to be registered in school?

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Uh-uh. No? No, they have to be

[Jesse Warren]: in the custody of the state.

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: And custody of the state. And then our program- But the school is not contingent?

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: No. Oh, okay.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Yeah. So that's DCF custody for that group. And then our program actually serves youth up until the point that they become involved in DCF, or become referred to DCF and in the custody of the state.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: What I'd like to know, I mean, we have about, I would say, stretching our time, no wait, we have about half an hour that we could spend, know whoever

[Rep. Kate Logan]: it is.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: I'm just wondering whether, I know people have a, I can see my committee is engaged, would it be wise for us to move on to other witnesses or do you want to answer your question with these guys? Don't hesitate to say when someone asks you a question, next, another witness, and then we can hold that question.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: We also have a youth here to speak with youth, and direct service providers from all of the state can share their perspective and have brought other youth stories. And I think that many of us would like to come back for a conversation.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: You stay a little? Someone, you've to go, right? Or do the ones who have to go to another committee already left?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I need to get back to my committee. Just because it's not typically in our jurisdiction, I think our committee is so excited

[Chittenden McGill]: to hear. Yeah.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Go ahead, where you go?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: In terms of housing, what we actually have control over. Do you know of youth who have Yes, we know there's a dearth of housing. Yes, there are always other circumstances. But how does a young person actually get into an apartment at the age of I mean, how do you do that without experiencing prejudice or discrimination, I guess? How does a young person Where does a young person go with that? I get housing case management. I think what you're pointing to is, yeah, that's one of the reasons that you've become homeless, especially over the age of 18, is because they leave housing on their own and they can't find it. Or they find a roommate and then that becomes a really toxic situation and they have to leave, but they can't find other housing because it's hard to rent when you're young. You don't have credit or you have bad credit. You don't have financial history to fall back on. Yeah, so really difficult. Programs that agencies here run, like transitional housing, who provide a youth with up to two years of transitional housing and then a reference. Have you ever worked with a home share Vermont? That's not a great match. I worked at home share Vermont. It's not often just the compatibility of having like Talking about de traumatized youth. Like

[Heather Getty]: need a

[Rep. Kate Logan]: lot of services. With like an elder who's just trying to stay home and needs a little bit. Like, those are just sadly Same with like immigrant populations, it's really hard to do those things.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: And then I'm going to ask the next witness testify or we'll never get there. Well, no, I just had

[Rep. Kate Logan]: a quick question. I mean, if you

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: found a landlord that'd be willing to rent to someone that's 18 years old that has no history, Yeah. Is there anybody that you have that might guarantee that that rent gets paid? Sort of like when you get a car loan. Oh, that's what

[Rep. Kate Logan]: we do. Master do they guarantee the rent? Oh yeah. So the Rapid Housing Program that we were talking And then, housing opportunities program also has a rental assistance. And then there's like housing choice voucher also through HUD. So there are a number of housing assistance programs where the agency providing the service pays the rent to the landlord. The youth is required to pay 30% of their income to the landlord directly. But any one of these case management folks here from Franklin County or the Northeast Kingdom or Chittenden County would be able to talk about the kind of interactions that they have with landlords to help advocate for youth in order to get them placed. And then one of the reasons that landlords have confidence in renting to youth who are enrolled in our programs is because they have access to us. And we are making sure that the rent check gets to them at the beginning of every month, personally.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Asking questions.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: So their housing, is a certain criteria and

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: the case manager follows up to make sure that that housing remains adequate housing for us. Has to

[Rep. Kate Logan]: be inspected before the youth can enter in an on an on-site basis. Animal? Yep, and the case managers here are trained to do those outcomes quality inspections.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Next is Christina.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Think Riley would be the best person to ask to have come up

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: with so much.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Riley?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: That would be great. That's great. Welcome.

[Riley Komprow]: Hello, my name is Riley Komprow. I used

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: to be homeless and worked

[Riley Komprow]: for about stable housing for several years on and off. During that time, I moved in and out of temporary housing, lived in my cars through both cold winters and hot summers and relied on hotel vouchers, which were truly life saving, especially during the winter months. Now thanks to Star Bard and housing navigation with Enkeys, I am housed, I have my own apartment and I'm finally able to focus on my next steps in building a stable future. I believe it is extremely important that the state continues supporting hotel programs, shelter programs, increasing funding for low income housing. There is genuinely not enough affordable housing for everybody, everyone, and as far far too many people are still homeless or about stay stable homes. These programs make a real difference and can be the bridge between homelessness and stability just as they were for me. Thank you.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Thank you, Ryan. Well done.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Any questions of Ryan?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Thank you so much. Thank you. Perfect.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Who would you like to take this?

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: This is your

[Rep. Kate Logan]: first time at the State House?

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yes.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Do you hate it? You. Thanks,

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Riley. Hey, good

[Christina Brown]: afternoon. Thank you so much for the opportunity to speak today and the time that you're all giving in recognition of the experience of youth homelessness in our state. My name is Christina Brown. I am the Chief Program Officer at Spectrum Youth and Family Services. At Spectrum, we serve over 1,300 youth each year between the ages of 12 and 30 years old, with services that focus on prevention and intervention, life skills and basic needs. We provide crisis stabilization, employment coaching, outpatient mental health and substance use counseling, mentoring, affinity spaces, food and material resources, and supportive housing services, including up to 30 beds for youth experiencing homelessness in Chittenden County and an additional 10 in Franklin County. We provide services through the lens of positive youth development with an emphasis on trauma informed care, recognizing the unique strengths, challenges, social, emotional, and cognitive milestones of teens and young adults and catering our programming to match these needs. At Spectrum, we recognize the compounding impact of trauma on the developing minds of the youth we serve, and we pride ourselves in providing responsive, supportive programming that meets the youth where they are at, keeping their dignity, autonomy, and voices at the center

[Alexa Tatro]: of our work. On any given day in

[Christina Brown]: the drop in center in St. Albans, we see 20 to 30 young people, many of them high school students without a safe alternative to spend their time after classes let out. On a single night in our Burlington emergency shelters, 18 youth are sleeping safely, relieved to be indoors. The average week of a case manager will have them driving from one end of the county to the other, meeting youth at the shelters, in their schools, in their homes, and in the hospital, helping them find stability and work toward their goals. When I think of what youth homelessness awareness means in my daily work life, I think about the 22 year old single father self paying in a hotel to maintain partial custody of his child. I think about the 19 year old who exited state custody and entered our shelter without so much as an ID. I think about the 18 year old fleeing domestic violence, unable to stay in the local family shelters with their mother and siblings because they are now by all legal definitions, an adult. I think about the many joyful moments as well, big and small. The young person who recently moved into an apartment after two years of living in Spectrum housing, the other who just celebrated a birthday with ice cream cake at the shelter. We are there when they bring home an A on their math exam, and we are there when they lose the job they've been counting on. We are there in moments of deep grief and despair, and we are there when they experience the elation of finding a caring community. Youth homelessness awareness is seeing these young people for the full, rich and complex lives that they lead, often in the margins of our communities, overlooked and stigmatized for the intersections of their identities as adolescent and homeless. Today, I urge you to move beyond awareness and towards action. As a community, we need to recognize the unique and vitally important developmental stage of adolescence in shaping an individual's future. In the state of Vermont, we must prioritize solutions to end youth homelessness. Data from the National Network for Youth has shown us that half of all adults who are homeless had their first experience of homelessness before the age of 25. The time to invest in solutions to end youth homelessness is now. We must center the lived experiences of young people, listen to youth who have experienced homelessness, recognize their pivotal contributions and expertise, and honor their autonomy. We must invest resources in the services that are developmentally aligned with the needs of this specific population. Youth homelessness and the solutions to address it must be catered to this stage of development. We need to uplift the work of youth service providers and build on their impacts by continuing to support programming that is youth centered and explore new ways of offering services that do the same. We must develop policies and pass legislation that helps to prevent youth from entering homelessness early. This means prioritizing permanence for youth in custody, focusing on kinship relationships, school based resources for children who are unstably housed, supporting the rights of transition aged youth to access needed care independently when necessary, safeguarding the financial benefits for youth in foster care, and especially protecting LGBTQ plus youth who are over 120% more likely to experience homelessness than their peers. An investment in ending youth homelessness is a long term investment in a data driven solution to curb the rise of homelessness across all age demographics. Awareness is the first step. Service providers are leaps and bounds ahead of awareness. We are in community with these young people every day and we need others to join us. Thank you for taking the time to hear this testimony and to bring greater visibility to a population that has too often gone unseen. Questions of Christina.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: At your Brockton Center, you mentioned a number of kids that are there after school, they're not a safe place to be. How prevalent is it for youth to have a location where there are families that is not a safe place to be and that is where they do not want to go? Are these all homeless or are they situations where homes are not a good place to be?

[Christina Brown]: Sure, great question. In St. Albans, our drop in center, while the drop in centers in St. Albans and Chittenden County in Burlington technically serve the same age range, which is 14 up to the 20 birthday in St. Albans. I don't know the data off the top of my head, but the vast majority of the youth are 18. In Burlington, ninety five percent of them are 18 and experiencing homelessness. One of the stark contrasts between these communities is the access of services for school age youth in Burlington. We have King Street Center, we have Boys and Girls Club. There are a number of other after school programs where those youths needs are being met and where they can identify a third space. So we are primarily in Burlington serving youth who are experiencing homelessness for the first time, often when they turn 18, sometimes as minors. In Franklin County, there are not as many services for school aged youth and third spaces where they can go after school if home and with their parent or guardian is not a safe option for them. So our drop in center there does serve for many of them as the safe alternative.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Go ahead. What are the credentials of the caseworkers and the individuals that work with the youth?

[Christina Brown]: Yeah, it varies by programs. Some of our programs do require our clinicians to hold master's degrees in social worker counseling if they are providing clinical stabilization services.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Does that work for the younger is or doesn't work? It

[Christina Brown]: can be a range of ages. It's just dependent on what the acuity of the need is for the population that that program is designed to serve. You will hear after me from our housing case manager who is here today, who holds an MSW and is able to offer services at a high level to the youth who are accessing our support housing programs. Thank you. How

[Unidentified Committee Member]: do kids get to you? So great question.

[Christina Brown]: I think a lot of it is word-of-mouth from their peers.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: They come in, they just show up. Yeah,

[Christina Brown]: one point that I think is important that we see as distinct in the youth population for folks experiencing homelessness at Spectrum and in Chittenden County. We see a number of youth, I think, in our shelter over the last two years in our low barrier emergency shelter, 30% were coming from out of state, which is not reflective of the adult population despite a lot of misconceptions and stigmatization around that population. But for youth, many of them are coming to Vermont seeking community, seeking reconnection with family. Maybe they were born here. Maybe they knew someone here. Maybe they often, youth who are LGBTQ plus are seeking refuge as a safe place where you're Yeah,

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: exactly.

[Christina Brown]: And I think we have great partnerships with all of the other community organizations who are doing similar and adjacent work for other populations. So folks can provide a warm handoff of youth from adult services to Spectrum as in other counties.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Questions, yes.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: And that 30% that you're talking about are 18?

[Christina Brown]: Most of those are 18.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Thank you. Yeah.

[Heather Getty]: I'm talking about

[Chittenden McGill]: just federal law around under

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: This is your first time speaking in this. It is, haven't had the

[Heather Getty]: least this year.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Have to

[Rep. Kate Logan]: identify yourself.

[Chittenden McGill]: I am Chittenden McGill. I work for BPREP, I'm the assistant director. Federal law, if they are a youth from another state, and it's also in Vermont state law, there is a whole process. We have to contact their home state and there's a whole thing. So I just want to make sure folks know that we're not harboring youth, we've away from other states. That is

[Christina Brown]: And a whole to be specific, our housing services at Spectrum, we, in comparison to Elevate and the balance of state where host homes are the intervention for minors experiencing homelessness, in Chittenden County and at Spectrum, we have a DCF licensed shelter where we are able to shelter youth as young as 16, still under that federal guideline of a maximum of twenty one days. The challenge with this is that that is not a minor specific shelter. So we don't have reserved beds for youth 18. We have in that shelter eight beds total, and we can serve ages 18 up to the 20 birthday. So we could in theory have a 16 year old with a 23 year old. This is semi congregate living. So folks share rooms, share communal spaces. There's a twenty one day stay limit. There's a life skills component to it. And there is a 19 person wait list right now, and that fluctuates. And so it's very rare, as I think Kate indicated earlier, it's very rare that Spectrum is able to actually house anyone who is 18 because by the time they come up on the wait list,

[Rep. Kate Logan]: who knows where they are?

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Is this your hand up in

[Unidentified Committee Member]: the air? It is, yes. As best you can tell, how does this crisis play out and how does it address the rural?

[Christina Brown]: That's a great question, and I don't know that I'm the best positioned to answer that question. I have been situated in serving Chittenden County for the last eight years. And in the last six months, I've expanded the scope of my practice and services to Franklin County. I'm still learning a lot about what looks different in more rural parts of the state. I think there are probably some service providers here who could speak more directly to that.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Is Alexa Cashero?

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Oh yeah.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: But you're also with Spectrum, right?

[Christina Brown]: Anything else, yes. She's a direct service worker.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: There's a chair, do you want to come up? Oh, I can.

[Alexa Tatro]: Christina is already talking about a lot of the things that I was hoping.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Good question, sure. I imagine there's certain rules that the kids have to abide by. Correct. What is the process if they break the rules, I'm sure that the process one time takes, but what happens if they just can't seem to follow the

[Christina Brown]: Yeah, great question. I'm gonna answer that in two parts. I'll take the first part and then I might actually ask you to step in. So there are youth for whom our housing programs, both our landing emergency shelter, which is that eight bed commissioner licensed shelter that I mentioned, that's 16 to 24 years old, and it has a life skills component. It's what we would call a mid barrier shelter. So there are a number of rules or community agreements that folks follow as a part of being in that shelter. One of them is sobriety when they're in the home. They also have to participate in case management. Have curfews, they have chores, they have house meetings where they talk about the chores and who's doing those or not. So there's a lot built into that, but a lot of our youth are not able to meet the level of expectation that is set in a program like that. So we at Spectrum, over the last eight years, nine years I guess, we have operated a low barrier shelter for youth as well. Until two years ago, that was a seasonal shelter. We would open it in November, we would close it in March, And we were often finding ourselves handing out tents to youth in March, which we know.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Fortunately today is not the case, but

[Christina Brown]: it's still cold. It's still very cold and living outside is not really a viable option. And it gets hot. And it gets hot. I mean, are so many reasons. No time of year

[Alexa Tatro]: is a time where it's

[Christina Brown]: safe for someone to live outdoors. Flooding, I mean, eating it. But that was the funding we have, that was the scope we were able to offer. Two years ago, we were able to secure the funding through the housing opportunity program, through the Office of Economic Opportunity at the state that, to offer a low barrier shelter year round. So that means those rules are far fewer. There is not an expectation of sobriety. There is not an expectation that you do chores. There's not even an expectation that you meet with a case manager, though we'll offer that. We will offer all of this range of services that we do to any other youth that comes through our doors. But if meeting that level of expectation is just not gonna be in the cards for you because you are in the midst of your first break psychosis and are struggling to get access to appropriate mental health care, we're still gonna make sure you have a place to

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: sleep at night, even if that's all

[Rep. Kate Logan]: it I was gonna say, Representative Pezzo, if you'd like, I have been meaning to, I usually go once a year. I haven't been yet since it's in our area. If you'd like to go to Spectrum, I know that they're always open to folks coming if you want to visit with me. Would love to

[Heather Getty]: ask I mean, I

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: would just imagine that there was health head tilted the minute you said that there's not an expectation of sobriety, but, and I understand that's part of it. I mean, you can't throw anybody out on the street because they're not able to stay clean.

[Christina Brown]: Well, and their journey to get to sobriety, that is part of their goals, it's not gonna happen when they're sleeping in

[Rep. Kate Logan]: a tent.

[Christina Brown]: So we need to be able to meet them where they're at and that's where we're going to have the most impact and actually changing the course of things for them to not experience long term chronic illnesses. Then I wanna pass it over to Alexa who can speak more directly to how she works with youth in our mid barrier shelter when struggling to meet those

[Alexa Tatro]: expectations. Yeah, absolutely. First and foremost, our goal is never to have

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Alexa, you wanna tell us your name?

[Alexa Tatro]: Oh, yes. My name is Alexa Tatro. I'm the supported housing case manager at Spectrum. Our aim is to never have people exit back into homelessness. Of course, the reality is that happens, but we are well versed in trauma informed youth centered practice and are gonna do everything in our power, our limited power to help prevent that. And so if youth are struggling to engage in our programming for whatever reason, either it just isn't a good fit for them or they're never making curfew or they're struggling with substance use or just will not engage with me, It is a very long process to exit in. It looks like a lot of conversations with myself and the direct service staff that work with me. We have a form called a Request to stay where the youth and I collaboratively create a plan of what are your goals? How can I help you get there? And these are the things that I need

[Rep. Kate Logan]: to see for you to stay here.

[Alexa Tatro]: And so that's just a written collaborative plan to hold both of us accountable. And as long as that is going well, that's the only step of the intervention. If that is not going well, it may look like something like a suspension or you can see in practice, okay, please continue. This is what my data deck is going to look like. Sometimes while they are. And those suspensions are usually not long and are contingent on them engaging with a case manager. And then if everything else has failed, this youth has decided Spectrum is not a good fit for them and they do not want to stay with us, that is fine. We will collaboratively set a move out date that is going to work for them because I don't wanna just take anyone notice. And I will work with them then. Okay, where are you going to go? What is that going to look like? How are we

[Rep. Kate Logan]: able to get you there? Yeah, think it would be really impactful. Other members are welcome, but three of us live in Chittenden County. Rep. Dodge, Pezzo and I reach out to Marc for more discussion at some point when we adjourn, I think it would be really impactful for us to see her in our backyard what's going on.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Tom, did you have a question?

[Chittenden McGill]: If you are interested in seeing what the rural models look like, I can connect you Elevate East services. We're going to be giving you a field trip for mine that you've got some and there

[Rep. Kate Logan]: are some other service providers

[Chittenden McGill]: to provide so you can see what it looks like in a more rural delivery.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So just a thought this year. For the two sessions here, we've been talking about different forms of housing that includes people that need specific housing. We've talked about developmental disabilities. We talked about people want to engage in place. I'm wondering to the degree to which we think that we might ought to be looking at some of the housing developments programs that should maybe include some space for this and how what that would look like. So what I would encourage you guys to to be in early in the next session. It's too late for us to draft anything right now. But to to keep don't wait for us. Just be at the door open. But to keep it on the committee's radar as the conversation is as we're, you know, working on expanding housing. Staffing is another question, but beds is a question, right? And that's where we come in as a thing.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Do you mean annual movement services?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Well, yes. I mean, that's Well, that's staffing in the zone.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Yeah. I thought you were trying to go with, what can we actually Yeah. Obviously, the The space, like, we have recovery housing. Exactly. Yeah. It would be a similar model to where we do the youth, the building a part of it, and then the services are in that, but our role would be like recovery housing, how it would both. I think it's great.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Yeah, I mean, we've had testimony here on what the different physical models for disability housing would look like, and there are different variations for recovery housing. And the question would be, not necessarily right now, what would your ideal physical structures look like that could address the various needs that you are dealing with, right? Mean, that's true.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: And the fact that they said they have wait lists, so

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: that means

[Rep. Kate Logan]: there's not enough It's like

[Chittenden McGill]: considering how you can work this in as you're thinking about other things. And I'll give the example of DHIP. Last biennium, I was able to work with you all to get prioritization for youth for transitional housing for youth And experiencing that has, you've heard about with Elevate, there have been in Brattleboro, they were able to do the same thing and get a stand up transitional housing. Riley, who you heard from, his apartment was made possible through VHIP. So those are, even in this committee, the ways where you all can really make a difference. And it is just that, how can we work a little bit of creating that space for youth into each topic you take up?

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Go We

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: both went right into the same time.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: So just so that we to refresh my memory, that the the we are there were you had a legislative ask that maybe this happened before I was here. Maybe I was here and I just don't remember.

[Chittenden McGill]: In the vehicle, we added We were back. Is a prior added to the prioritization for those People exiting homelessness. Yes. Is exiting homelessness. And then we also got in a because due to the flooding we've seen, a number of our Elevate as well as all of our subrecipient organizations lost their transitional housing buildings due to flooding in the past few years. Plus most of our transitional housing in this state for youth. So I worked, we got in that language, there is a prioritization for youth serving organizations who are getting master leasing an apartment. And so that's just one of the, it was a small tiny piece of legislation, but we now have, I think six transitional housing units or apartments around Vermont, thanks to that language, which are serving 40 youth and helping them stabilize. So that's the kind of little tweaks and changes we can make as we're doing our work that can make a massive difference in the lives of the youth we're trying to serve. Go ahead.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: You should first come first or based on me, because I'm sure there's a waiting list that's my own.

[Christina Brown]: Yeah, both. We are required to serve the folks who are experiencing literal unsheltered homelessness first, so those who are most vulnerable,

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I suppose, sleeping

[Christina Brown]: outside, sleeping in their cars before surfing folks who might be couch surfing. But then once we get the folks who are experiencing unsheltered homelessness, it would

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: be personal for certain. I more meant if they're experiencing unsheltered housing and one may have some kind of a diagnosis or running from sexual abuse or abuse or whatever, and someone that just has a really poor relationship with a dysfunctional family and they got kicked out, would there be

[Christina Brown]: first come, first served, or based on need? It would still generally be first come, first served. We're not looking specifically at details of everyone's circumstances. For our mid barrier shelter, which is referral based, so that's where we have the wait list. And our low barrier shelter, it's always first come first served, so people can show up on the night and claim a bed, but we're at maxi all

[Unidentified Committee Member]: the time.

[Christina Brown]: So we're often turning books away.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Gonna sneak in.

[Chittenden McGill]: Christina, we have

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: one more witness.

[Chittenden McGill]: Yeah, I'm just gonna snap Christina and take her over that. Thank you so much. Thank

[Rep. Kate Logan]: you. You. I

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: was gonna say, can you send your written testimony? Did you send your

[Christina Brown]: written testimony? I have not yet, but I will. You.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: And I'm gonna reach out to Marc to get some legislators in the gym or whoever wants to come visit. Please do.

[Christina Brown]: Thank you. Yeah, we love showing the

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: books around.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: I think it's Heather.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Oh, Heather, he's right here.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: You're next. Hello.

[Heather Getty]: Hi, my name is Heather Getty. I work at NCSF, Northwestern Townsend and Sport Services. We cover Franklin and Grand Isle Counties. We're the designated mental health agency and the team leader of adolescent services there. So the staff that I supervise are case managers working with these. I wanted to share a story of a youth that we recently were able to get housed through the VCRIP programs. She started with housing navigation and then we were able to get her a RRH rental, rapid rehousing voucher. I asked her if she might be that I share her story. She said, please do. So, she didn't want me to share her name, so I'm going to respect that. So, let me share the story of a young single mother who came to our program through a referral from our local coordinated entry team. She spent nearly three years without stable housing while raising two small children. She couchsurfed with family and friends, relied on the state motel voucher program, and most recently spent several months in a shelter. She was hanging on by a thread. Homelessness doesn't just mean lacking shelter, it can block every other path forward. During her three years on Houzz, she was unable to focus on anything but survival. This meant she couldn't complete her education or pursue meaningful employment. When you're in survival mode, you cannot plan, you cannot grow, you can't parent the way that you want to. After she was referred to our housing navigation program, a case manager helped her apply for a youth rapid rehousing subsidy. Shortly after being approved for the subsidy, her case manager went out on medical leave. So as the case manager's team leader, I stepped in to ensure the continuity of care and worked with multiple community partners in the area to identify available rental units and see the process through to completion. She moved into a two bedroom apartment with her children on April 1, and when I recently called to check on her and see if I could use her story, she told me that moving into her own apartment has been life changing. She said she can finally breathe again and that she's no longer stuck in survival mode. She's now making plans to earn her high school diploma, find work, save for a car. She reports that her children are frightened. The difference in her voice from our first conversation to our most recent one was evident. She sounded happy and very hopeful. Housing is not the finish line for her. It's the serving line. Without a stable place to sleep, nothing else is possible. With it, everything becomes possible. It truly took a village to house this family. Also have a story from Star Barden.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Before you go on, we don't leave that story yet. So, where was she before she got the apartment?

[Heather Getty]: Right before the apartment, she was in a domestic violence shelter.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: With her kids? With her kids.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: And where did the apartment come from?

[Heather Getty]: Well, so our community partner,

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I work closely with a lot

[Heather Getty]: of community partners, and there's some local landlords who, when an apartment becomes available, they reach out to those community partners first because they know that they're working with the most vulnerable in our community. And one such landlord happened to reach out to one of the community partners at Pathways and said, Hey, I have someone who just gave their notice that they found another place to live and they're going to be moving out of the apartment. I have a two bedroom unit becoming available. Do you have anyone who could benefit from it? And she said,

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Oh, yes,

[Heather Getty]: we have this mom we're working with. So I made sure to get all the paperwork together. She took the mom to see the apartment, meet with the landlord, did a lot of back and forth with getting the landlord's W-nine and all his information to make sure that all the payments can be made correctly and having the housing inspection done to make sure that it was up to par.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: And yeah, and it just worked out.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: And finally, wait, can I ask one more question for members of the committee? I have to go meet with the speaker and Ashley is going to take over for me, and we'll be also, we have one more item today, you just saw our council come in, we're gonna do a kind of a discussion on possible markup of 03/28. So, my question for you is, who's paying for the rent?

[Heather Getty]: So, that's the rapid rehousing factor that's through the youth demonstration project.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Right, okay, thank you. Go ahead.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: The

[Heather Getty]: other letter I'm going share is from Star Bartley, who was here, but she had to leave. She's the case manager who works with Riley, who first spoke. She gets great news and asked if I would read it for her, so

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I'm going read it from her point of view.

[Heather Getty]: Good afternoon. Every day I work with youth and young adults ages 18 to 24 who are experiencing homelessness. These young people are trying to build their futures, finishing school, finding jobs, and learning the life skills needed to live independently. But one major barrier stands in their way safe, stable housing. As a housing navigator, I guide them through the process of finding and maintaining housing. But the reality is there simply aren't enough affordable units. Many of the young people I work with are up against additional barriers no rental history, no credit, often no family support to fall back on, and so they wait. They wait for an opening, for an opportunity, for someone to say yes. Programs like the Youth Homelessness Demonstration Program help bridge that gap. They provide critical support, resources, and real pathways out of homelessness. But the need continues to grow and the resources are not keeping up. I've seen what happens when a young person finally gets the keys to their own place. It's not just housing, it's stability, it's dignity. It's the foundation they need to move forward with their lives. If we truly believe that every young person deserves a safe place to call home, then we must continue to invest in programs and supports that make that possible. Thank you, Star Barden, Housing Navigator, Northeast Kingdom Needs Service.

[Chittenden McGill]: I don't know if there's any other questions?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Anyone else who's scheduled to speak? Well, I just want to say, thank you, Heather. A scientist, and from Franklin County. So I so appreciate the work that you and your entire team does. I always am so happy to hear everything that you're doing, and it's nice to be a leader, because of the hard work that you're all doing. Thank you for everything.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Thank you.

[Heather Getty]: Thank you for your time. I really appreciate Thank

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: you. Thank you so much.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: We were just waiting for counsel, but we are still live. Yes. That's not Michelle at all. So we're taking a quick break. Do know what?

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: I think I can

[Rep. Kate Logan]: unite it because I don't want it. We are no longer out of reach. Oh! So, we're going to be having a discussion in the potential markup of S-three 28, which we had testimony earlier this afternoon on. As a reminder, everybody, if we could wrap up at four, we're all invited to an event in the

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: Cedar Creek Room. What is it? Somebody's Somebody's retiring. Oh, oh, oh, okay.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: So I think it'd be great if we could all be there if possible. Got it. All right, Cameron, the floor is yours. Floor is mine.

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: I think so.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: For the record, Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel. The floor is yours.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I'm going

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: to talk or answer any questions that you all have. I will say, I think we've been discussing the amendments regarding universal design incorporating those concepts. So I'm happy to answer any questions that you have about the language based on the testimony that you've all had from your witnesses. I have been doing a little bit of digging and investigation into how the current statutory language has somewhat evolved over the years. I've just, as I'm learning, I've just begun to scratch the surface. But happy to talk, happy to answer any questions, happy to

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: Awesome, I believe Yes, first question, are we still on version 3.1? Which version are we on?

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: I have not drafted a new version, so 3.1 is the most recent version. That is what I think I walked through on Friday, and you all did not ask for any updates to that, so I haven't made any updates. Great,

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: thank you. You're welcome.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: From the testimony that we had earlier, believe we also are having Kelly Four, the Associate Director of Outreach for AARP, to come in tomorrow to also discuss universal design and housing. So we are not quite done hearing testimony, but does everybody want to start from where we're at?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So we're looking at three twenty eight with a of a focus on universal design at the moment? Is that

[Rep. Kate Logan]: for Correct. Unless there is something about 03/28 that you really don't like that you wanna take out, or if there's something brand new you wanna put on. This can be a whatever discussion you would like to have about three twenty eight.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Yeah, happy to answer any questions on the underlying bill or on the proposed amendment.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I have a quick question. Just off the top, because I am now a little bit muddled because it's the end of the session, and I can't keep my head on this thing. Do you know off the top of your head whether it is 03/28 that has an exploration of building codes,

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: or is that another bill?

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Not just building codes, but manufacturing housing. Yes,

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: it is in three

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Thank you.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: It was part of your, or at least what is coming to my mind. There is some language in three times that I will pull up. It's in your off-site accelerator pilot. And part of that pilot program is to look at so this is going to be page seven subsection f under draft 3.1. What we have here is part of the report on the Off-site Accelerator Pilot Program, the Agency of Commerce has to include any recommendations for legislative action based on the success of the pilot and the report shall include information on whether to enact a statewide building code or codes for off-site construction. Can you repeat paper? It's on page seven.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Got it.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So it's also stated on the top of page seven as the criteria that the pilot will consider in parting the pilot. Alright. So

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: there's I've been doodling all over the

[Unidentified Committee Member]: over some. Just considering where the media would my impression is there's a certain amount of so there's the principles of universal design, and then there's the actual specs of visitability and adaptability that are in varying degrees incorporated into the HFA's policies, Indo2 Homes, and some of the other places. So we're starting to see practical application. I'm wondering if so the letters and numbers are different between the bill and the amendment? Mhmm. If I'm looking at the at the the amendment k. So there's the file will consider the following elements. There's a, b, c, d, e, f, and g. And then separately, there's a number two, which is where that was our starting point for discussing universal design. It would it be the conversation on the table to make that APCDEFGH, I think there's actually be a eight, seven eight, with the bill. Add it to add it to the list of what the pilot can will consider and just simply state housing units funded program. No, that's sorry, the grammar has to be different. So H would be along with aligning this, creating that, establishing it would be applying visible and adaptable standards as defined in, and figure out where, I think it's built with practice safety that actually has, they have work as defined in whatever, to the extent practice. So it's on their radar, there's a standard, there's a code standard to some effect that they're looking at. What are the practices? Rather than simply identifying eight zero two homes later section 10 because not all of these are necessarily eight zero two homes. There are other manufacturers, other designs, other sources.

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: Right.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: What I'm thinking is if we put it in that list, it's one of the things they're looking at as they move forward, regardless of the source of the designs or the units, that they have some standards, that they're and to a degree, they already are. So we're putting somebody on their radar. They're already working on good things. We're including it in that list of things that they're considering. It's an appropriate next step.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Codify the best.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: Well, it

[Unidentified Committee Member]: gives them the opportunity to sift through and sort through how do we do this. Because I can't figure out how to do it, like, in the next two weeks.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: So I can I suggest oh, sorry? So, like, you know, here on line 18 of the latest draft, it says whether to enact a statewide building code or codes. And so I was wondering about, instead of whether, saying how.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Whether if I were, yeah.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Just instead of whether is how. So we're asking them for an answer that is you know, like, we're not telling them how to do it, but we're we're asking them to come up with a way.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And you're not asking them a yes or no question.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Right. Which

[Rep. Kate Logan]: is just too easy.

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: Exactly. My noodle says weather and how. With your Google

[Rep. Kate Logan]: Including weather. Or noodle. Did you say your noodle? My little doodle. Oh, or noodle.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: I use a pen

[Unidentified Committee Member]: to say it equated communications device. That's right.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: The first printing press.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Whether and how to enact a building for the elements relevant to universal design. Yeah, and they may find that looking at it at fire and safety, they do the warranty tweaks, it's doing it. They may find,

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: I don't know, they may find

[Unidentified Committee Member]: a hard incest, but one wider than

[Alexa Tatro]: what besides

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: fire safety? Because that's So really good

[Unidentified Committee Member]: fire and safety, and I want to be careful with, I don't want to saddle fire and safety with the inspections process for the tourists like, hop on. You can see the deer and headlights look when they were testifying. But without burdening them with the administrative responsibility for enforcement, can we use the same definitions that they use when they're talking about multi family units? Because they have criteria that it's when they're inspecting multi family.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Wouldn't we be able to? Is that what you want in the bill?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Well, think it's just referring to the standards that they have I'm thinking out loud.

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Not the idea I'm seeing

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: the way we're looking is

[Unidentified Committee Member]: there a nuts and bolts definition that a builder can work with As the philosophy of universal design, first design is to design, I guess, you know, I guess you follow the philosophy. This practical application definition of Doors that are this wide, increase, you know, put the blocking in ahead of time, make sure, you know, working with thresholds, turn raises, and all that stuff. That's the stuff that the buildings look at. Already some kind of a definition. So it's already the visibility and adaptability are already criteria that they inspect multi family units for. So there's already something there. And what I think is can we refer to the same standards when we are asking for builders to submit their proposals? Say, I go to the Washington State, but you say, how many? What do you want this? How much? What is he want? So it's part of that list of details. I think we already have some definitions and that's where they are. Statute or if it's just their working definition is a reflection of statute. But I that's the closest I can come to it. So what we're asking is that

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: The rules are adopted under 20 BSA Chapter 173. That's correct.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Is there opportunity doing for multi family? And with off-site modular, only difference for me is so when they do single family, they're asked to follow the same standards. Fire safety doesn't necessarily have to go and inspect every single one. But when we're asking for the design to be submitted, it's a determination that should already incorporate that stuff.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: That was what I was sorry, go ahead. Well, I guess I'm a little uneasy about incorporating fire and safety into the language when they're nervous about they don't want to be involved. And we're just asking about, if I just start to finish. So if we're talking about designs, then it doesn't seem to me that it's necessarily speaking to enforcement in the statute that's needed. It's really about just asking that at the design level that we take into consideration these things that we've been learning about, right? About visibility versus adaptability versus accessibility, all of those being increasingly more rigorous, if you want to so I guess it would just make more sense to me to just have language that would call for the design process to include whatever those Adaptability, disability. As defined the way that we just heard, wherever those are defined, right, Lamo? Right? So those are defined under he said They define 2020. Yeah. So that was what

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: I was alluding to earlier when we heard definitely earlier this afternoon, because the thing is, the things we What we're looking for and what we want, we want to be cautionary of. So we don't want to mandate that it's in every single building because that's going to make it complicated for folks to pull off. Right? That's what we've heard. It's that if you say every unit has to be accessible, that may not be feasible and affordable and or necessary. Right? And so these folks at eight zero two Homes have done a really great job of taking into account visitability, accessibility and adaptability. And so, and you've heard prior Shaky that the multi family units have to have those things. So, I think the goal, from where I sit and understand, is maybe to find language, because if folks are already doing it, right, the goal is how do we put language that says the folks who are not doing this to also do this. Because the thing is, with the pilot program, it's not only eight zero two homes. Is that correct or incorrect?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It's anything the pilot program does, which might be designed from the eight zero two homes catalog It may not. Huntington homes. Exactly. It might be and Huntington knows how to do it.

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: But how do you put that language to suggest it? Because whether or not they know how to do it doesn't mean they will. Right?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Well, here's if you if the pilot program is considering, among the other criteria, incorporating visibility and adaptability in all the units, including the single family units, which are the ones not covered. One is the pilot program, which is a starting point, we'll learn something from this. And if you give a, this means that when they put out a request for proposals that different manufacturers it won't just be hunting homes. They'll put out a request for proposal. It will say, looking for these energy criteria in this floor space and these materials and so on, and it will include specs for adaptability, visibility. The contractors then will submit their proposal and say, here's what we can do and here's how we're supposed to do it, here's the timeline, here's the cost, and here's the And if they don't include it, they'll ever get another government contract. So it's in their best to just the fact that we're specifying that we will ask for this in the design. That puts the responsibility. And generally for contracts this size, you know, they're they take the request for proposal pretty seriously. So I don't know that we, you know, I don't know that we have to have an inspector go out.

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: Yeah. No. I don't I'm not saying to have the inspector go out at all. Like, because they already told us they don't have capacity to do that.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah, I think if it's, because right now we, by statute as it exists, it's only required in multi family units. By putting some language in here, we can stipulate that it is also applied to single family units in the pilot program. So that's what I'm Yeah,

[Rep. Kate Logan]: think we're saying the same thing.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And if there's something separate from fire and safeties, if we can not refer them at all, if it's in 20 BSA, that might be the better place to

[Rep. Gayle Pezzo]: Oh, we have a lawyer who can name these fellows. I just might be totally misinformed, but I thought that Vermont doesn't have building codes per se, but that the fire safety codes apply to any structure that's built within the residential area. No. No, multi family. Only multi family. Do you have anything

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: to say, Cameron? I have

[Rep. Kate Logan]: it for 401. It applies to We actually have somebody who can answer this. And modular,

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: it does. For the record, Cameron Woodholtz, don't know that I can answer this specific question that's not, I can get an answer,

[Rep. Kate Logan]: it's

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: not necessarily under my portfolio jurisdiction. Here's a few things that I will just comment. So I'll share my screen and walk through a few things. Have in Vermont this chapter in Title 20 regarding accessibility standards for public buildings and parking. And when you look into this, it's got definitions, the creation of the access board, etcetera. But what does this apply to? It applies to new public buildings and it applies to alterations of existing public buildings. And a public building is a pretty broad term. It's not just any state office, so it applies to private buildings as well. And then where you get the four or more is when you look at the exceptions, because the definition of a public building includes apartments, and then there is an exception to say that

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: There

[Unidentified Committee Member]: we go.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: In the two, the following are exempt from provisions of this chapter unless access standards is required by federal law and it's got apartments or other residential buildings consisting of three living units or less. Those are excluded, that's where you get the four or more. So these are my understanding. These are the accessibility standards. This is the chapter that sets it out. And then you get pardon me, I'm going pull up one more thing. You get these access rules from the Division of Fire Safety and it talks about the adaptable and visitable standards. So these are the codes that these public buildings have to comply with if they're new or if they're being altered, but when you look at this, this is only 20 pages long and when you read through this material, this is all built on the federal ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act. So you actually have to go look at those standards that apply. This is kind of how far I've gone down this learning, I wasn't calling this learning expedition. So then let's go look at what the ADA standards are. This is a 300 page document and so you look at what, this is how far I've gotten. So what are these applicable to is my next question I'm trying to answer for myself so I can provide that information to you all. But then, so no, there's no building code in Vermont. However, when you look at certain provisions of this code that has to be met, as you can see, there are very specific things that have to be met depending on the circumstances, certain widths, dimensions, etcetera, etcetera. And so you have the ADA standards. You have the Vermont access rules, which build upon that and make some alterations to provide greater accessibility. They can't go below the federal floor. They can add to it, so there's some changes here. My understanding of what they're talking about when they say the visitable standards are in your statue, Vermont statute, you do have standards that have to be met for single use residential construction and it's here in 2907. Apologies for, you need to zoom in there, right? So it applies to new construction of one family or multi family dwellings. So you're talking about single family dwellings here. Okay. And what's excluded is a single family dwelling built by the owner for personal occupancy. So why am I bringing that up? If you have, as read these, and I'm just scratching the surface like I said, I'm just now becoming familiar with this so I would somewhat defer this question maybe to the Division of Fire Safety, but as I read it, you have a pilot program where a developer is developing single use family residences that they're then going to sell on the market to other people, they would have to meet these visitables requirements. So it's not just to multifamily or it would apply to multifamily or it would also apply to a single use home. Now, you know, these things, any residential construction shall be built to comply with the following. I don't know, I'm not an expert enough to know how this matches up with general universal design concepts. Does this meet those concepts or is this not enough? Does it need to go slightly further? So that's kind of where I'm at is trying to get an understanding of the applicability of the ADA sections, this 300 page document, how does that match up with the application of your statute, what's excluded and what's not excluded. Circling all the way back around to your question, Representative Essex, I need to do some research here. There's a building code. Imagine that you all would, the Division of Fire Safety would enact fire safety codes that exclude single family residences.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: I just think we're getting a little bit like, we have five minutes left and we're getting a little weedy, like, in what we're doing. Don't

[Unidentified Committee Member]: think it's eight or eight,

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: because I think it's relevant.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: But just

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: to To

[Unidentified Committee Member]: what we're doing Let them work it out.

[Rep. Kate Logan]: We also do have tomorrow, I meant for today just because people have to go.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So that's where I'm at. I was looking at your statute trying to figure out what it applies to, trying to figure out what these visitable standards are That's being referred my understanding based on the access rules that I read, based on looking up the statute and how it's evolved going all the way back to 1996. They added these visitable standards in 2000 and it includes the application to those single family residences. Okay, That's where fire safety has different

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Fire safety inspects public buildings, which a single family home does not. So when it comes to enforcement, these are if you're building a single family home to sell on the market, as a commercial developer, these are part of the construction criteria. Fire and safety doesn't get involved unless it's a public building, which is multi family, stores, partials, shops, putting in place of employment. So that's where their definition of a public building does not include the City of Independence Home for Inspection.

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: I think that's what Cameron was trying to convey is that the clarification is that it's built by the owner. I think that's the caveat.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So this may be sufficient and it's already there.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: So here's where my ability to read the statutes and laws doesn't always vary up with practical what's happening in Brown. I read their own rules, this is the Division of Fire Safety's rules and it says in chapter two here it says application for a construction permit. The owner or a designated representative of a building or premise, you need to go look up the definition of building or premise, shall obtain a construction permit in accordance with Vermont Fire and Building Safety Code for beginning any construction, addition, alteration, demolition, or installation of a fixed building equipment at the building site. And so I don't understand, they have to be able to enforce these provisions, are they? So I need to go look up what a building or premise is defined under their rules to determine whether or not a fire and field safety code would apply to it.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It may not. Might be actually what I don't see in the statute's definition of the twenty days and maintenance, is thresholds for entryways in general. There's nothing about entryways. So that's me thinking out loud and just trying to think of a concise way to say, just keep it on their radar without creating another headache that's already resolved.

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: And

[Rep. Kate Logan]: it is four, so I think we're going to adjourn. I don't think we have much more to think. Tomorrow, we probably will, after we've been able to digest all of this.

[Cameron Wood, Office of Legislative Counsel]: I will keep digging into this. I may not make much more headway before tomorrow because I will be wrapped up all morning in other committees, but

[Rep. Kate Logan]: you for all I you can just

[Unidentified Committee Member]: see

[Rep. Kate Logan]: the conversation. Awesome.

[Vice Chair Ashley Bartley]: Well,

[Chair Marc Mihaly]: we