Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I know it's a fairly busy life that you've got.

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Oh, no. It's quite alright. Thank you for thanks all of you for taking the time to, come over and see us.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Well, we are this is again, I'm just welcoming everybody back to the General and Housing Committee, and it is the April 22, and we've been discussing universal design. Our next witness is Jason Webster. Jason hosted us at Huntington Homes a few days ago, but we asked him to come back because we wanted to talk a little more specifically, Jason, about accessibility, visitability, etcetera, and your units. And I guess the question, at least for me, is what do you guys do in this regard? Do you do it automatically with everybody? What do you do automatically with everything? And what do you do just in response to customer orders?

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Okay.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: That's where where that's what we're talking about right now.

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Okay. Yeah, I don't, I'm happy to answer. Again, Jason Webster, for the record, Jason Webster from Huntington Homes. Yeah, I'm happy to answer whatever. I haven't really prepared anything. I'm happy to answer whatever questions you might have of this. Know, I would say, you know, from a big from big picture, do we incorporate kind of universal design? I think just big picture trying to organize the way all of this fits into the scheme of other things is that, you know, there's ADA requirements for that get triggered depending on a project size that will require, you know, a certain number of units be built to, you know, an ADA standard, you know, that's not going to get triggered until you get into commercial and multi family. It would never the ADA requirements aren't triggered by default by on single family homes. The ADA standard is, you know, it's a very specific standard. There's a big thick book and you read through it and it's basically, you know, you just follow your way through the book like other codes, you know, if I meet this condition I have to do this and whatever. There is then also another standard which honestly I'm not sure when exactly it's triggered, but it's probably the standard we see more often, which is the adaptability standard, which isn't the I should

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: interrupt and just tell you that we we had Mike Jaroscher, who runs the fire safety building code operation in here, And he this morning, and he talked to us in some detail about visitability

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Correct.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: And adaptability, both of which apply in the multifamily situation because they really don't enter into the single family.

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Say into single family, that is correct.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So we do, we are familiar with those concepts.

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Okay, great. So we can, I can skip those, and Mike, you heard it from the source with him, right? There's nobody that's going to know the trigger points on that better than Mike is. The and then there's this, you know, then there's then there's, then there's kind of the adapt not the I'm sorry, I'm blanking on the words. Then there's this concept of universal design, which in my mind universal design is it's more of a concept than it is a code, meaning that there's no there isn't necessarily it's something any client could certainly ask for, and there are certain aspects of it that depending on the project would be very easy to integrate, if even at no cost. But there are other as a concept, it kind of there are other I'll come back to this and explain what I mean by this there are other single family homes where universal design almost is it's I'm not going say there are components of it that might be applicable, but there are other components that are essentially mutually exclusive based on the design of the home. Again, it's more universal design in my mind, it's more of a concept than like a hard code follow this path. What I do worry about meaning there's a lot of kind of what's it it means different things to different people what I do worry about putting universal design language into legislation is that there is a little bit too much interpretation or discretion between the parties as to what does that mean, and so some parties might say well this, you know, I did check the boxes for universal design, and other parties might say well no, actually you didn't, because there are certain things you didn't do here. I think as in legislation it might be if it's something that you want to incorporate into legislation, would think that a reference to the more of the code based programs might be easier and less subject to interpretation by the parties. So if it was a visibility or an adaptability or an ADA standard, at least there's a reference document to go back to, and it's not up to the two parties to argue about what they thought it meant. And then you know in terms of you know from a building perspective, what does it mean? Are some things that don't cost any more money, right? It's part of design which may or may not cost any more money. So 36 inches wide doors, a 36 inches wide door versus a more standard 32 inches wide door cost wise they're nearly identical. The only thing is that the 36 inches wide door is four inches wider. That will eventually translate into some overall design changes, right? Because it's, you know, most some rooms in a configuration, a 36 inches door might be absolutely no different than a 32 inches door or a 30 inches door. You know, sometimes like specifically in like hallways and stuff, every six inches wider door that you specify makes things six inches wider, depending on the door configuration and the layout of the way a hallway is. So if you put it, you know, each one is six inches bigger if you put four of them next to each other, you know, you've taken up two feet of space, which might have translated on the other end of the house to the room that was necessary for an entry closet. So sometimes it's not just an automatic, sometimes it'll trigger other things that have to be adjusted or looked at. So you know the doors isn't an issue. The no you know it's easy enough to order doors that have you know exterior doors with you know no height thresholds. Want to be really there is a downstream of that you do want to be careful about where you put those doors. You don't want to put those doors under a drip line or somewhere where they're going to get a lot of water because just because they don't have a back dam to them. They are significantly more prone to water leakage than a kind of a standard door threshold would be, but that's you know again it's part of if the design was already that way it's a non issue to do it that way. The bigger ones that are more significantly impacted by construction methods and design and again might not be an issue might be an issue, would be the single level. If the house is built slab on grade and there's an attached garage, it by default is single level, right? Where the garage slab elevation and the house elevation are at the same height and there is no elevation difference to do there. More typically though, locally we see, you know, platform framing, which is where you have, you know, a top of a foundation wall and then there is a wood frame floor assembly that sits on top of that. And so it's not impossible, but it is a different process in order to recess that wood floor framing so that your grit you know it's typically what's called a mud sill detail and that would then allow the top of your wood frame floor framing to align with your slab elevation. In some houses that's not a problem, in some designs it can be. I have lots of clients that ask for that detail. We incorporate it in lots of builds. I wouldn't say that that detail with wood frame floor flush garage slab to flush wood frame floor It's a it is a more complicated detail. It introduces some sequencing events where some sequencing that is a little out of normal between your framing and your and your concrete contractor.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Does that mean, Jason, that that's going to affect price to some extent?

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: That will affect price, yeah. Mostly, not necessarily from the framing contractor because they're still nailing stuff together, they're just nailing it in a little bit different place. More significantly, that price difference is going to come from the concrete contractor because instead of simply pouring everything at one height, now they're pouring things at different heights, different elevations, sometimes they can't be poured at the same time, so one thing has to be poured, concrete contractor goes away, excavation contractor has to prep something differently, and then the concrete contractor has to come back and do it again. Again, it's dependent on the details, it just depends on the design of the structure sometimes it doesn't matter, sometimes it does. And then so that's one, and then the other one is single floor living. And in some designs that's not a problem, right? Some designs are single floor anyway, so everything was on one floor. Some designs are two floors, and so there is, know, there can be a primary suite or it's something people ask for all the time with a primary suite or a bedroom that's on the 1st Floor, and then they might put you know the other bedrooms, guest bedrooms, kids bedrooms, maybe their current bedrooms on the 2nd Floor, and then they move down as we want to. Again it gets into design things, If we're talking about a you know if somebody's building a 3,000 or 4,000 square foot house, there's plenty of square footage on that Ground Floor. If it's a two story house, there's plenty of square footage on that Ground Floor to put a primary suite into that 1st Floor. But if somebody's only building a 1,600 square foot house or an 1,800 square foot house that is two stories, most of that 900 square feet that's on the 1st Floor is already fully consumed by the living space, right? It's already consumed by the kitchen, the mudroom, the dining room, know the living room that people want down there anyway, and so it's much harder at that smaller square footage in a two story house to find room for a primary suite or a bedroom on that 1st Floor. Does that make sense? Yeah. If the house is big enough, anything can happen. It becomes more challenging as the house gets smaller, because there's some things that are mutually right, you just don't have the square footage to find that space on the Ground Floor. So I would say in terms of like, you know, are people asking for it? Sure. I mean I have a project that you know where design development work right now for something we'll build you know later this year, where it is important to him. He's actually thinking this is his downsizer house and he's not only thinking about accessibility issues for himself, but I mean he's even gone the next level, you know, he's thinking about you know creating spaces internally, you know, for a caretaker, right? And so that's something that's part of his design. It's well into a 7 figure house, right? It's inexpensive, but that is something that somebody's asking for, so we see it. I guess it all comes back to if the question is can universal design be incorporated for little to no cost? The answer is it depends.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Just going through a few other issues that we've heard about, accessible bathrooms, for example, is that something that is hard to design or cost is is costly or not?

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Well so it is they are more accessible bathrooms are more expensive, generally that means that and again I need to say they might be more expensive because it depends on what was going to be built to begin with, right? If was already going to build a custom tile shower with a custom glass enclosure, then to have it with no sill doesn't cost any additional money. But if somebody didn't have, you know, wasn't spending 10,000 or $15,000 on a custom tile shower and instead was putting in a, you know, one piece acrylic shower unit, then you know they are going to spend a net thousand dollars on a no sill, you know, or an ADA thresh, you know, low sill shower unit shower stall. In terms of the like clearances available in front of the fixtures, right, so that somebody can turn a chair around in there and have room, that can be no cost depending on design. If they have the space to do that, that's fine. If it's a small house and they don't have the space to do that, you know that extra couple feet comes at the expense of somewhere else in the house. The is where I see people doing a project over time instead of it in one shot, because there is a vanity you know most people like their vanities with a cabinet underneath with doors and drawers so that they can store things. Obviously you can't roll underneath a vanity like that, and so you know a universal design or an adaptable design or an ADA design would be something where you can roll underneath it and you lose that storage that's underneath. So what I do see are people putting in kind of the standard stuff now, but we're setting up future plumbing to come out of the back of the walls instead of going through the floor, so that down the road that vanity could be removed and roll under could be installed. And whether we it through a wall or whether we plumb it through a floor, there's no cost to that. It's really it's the fixture at the time and its usability, right, as to what somebody's looking for.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I take it that the height of plugs and all that stuff is not a problem.

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Yeah. That's not a problem. I mean, that's pretty we I'd say almost every house at this point puts in the comfort height toilets, they put in you know the elongated bowls, that's I had a funny build years ago for a younger couple on Nantucket, and we never I don't know why we never talked about toilets. It's always a weird conversation to have with a client. What do you want for a toilet? And we ended up putting in kind of a standard round front toilet, and that was something they really questioned after the fact. They're like, why did you do that? Know, we we wanted the taller one.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: What about the kitchen?

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Kitchen can be significant. Most, if it's a custom kitchen, right, again it depends. If it's a custom kitchen and somebody's building it, you know custom really doesn't matter if there's a change in cabinet heights because somebody's building the kitchen anyway. You have be a little mindful of the appliances and the appliance locations as to what height they get installed, what the door type is. I can't really speak as to if any of those appliances are more expensive than other ones, that I don't know. Where you do get into some more considerable cost though is in the more basic, more you know budget friendly kitchens. Most of the stock cabinet companies are going to most of their offerings, most of their product line is going to be around kind of the industry standard 36 inches tall countertop height. Most stock cabinet companies will have a small line of accessible cabinetry, so those are you know cabinets that are you know at a shorter height. They might have some different door and drawer configurations in them, or the sink base has been designed to roll underneath, but usually what you'll find in their offerings is it's a significantly reduced option for what they'll offer in that line versus what they offer in their other line.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Is there a price penalty?

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: That I don't I'm not sure that the stock cabinet companies would be are charging more for those cabinets. I think it's just fewer options.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Right. Well, I've been monopolizing the conversation here, guys. You got the guy. Ask him questions. Don't happen.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I think you did a great job at the tour, answering a lot of these questions as we were going through, which was really helpful because we were able to see it, ask the questions, and then see the response and what you were saying. So I feel like it's a disservice to the viewers because we were able to be in there and ask these questions and get to see in real time. Just gratitude and thank you for that.

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Well, yeah, again, thanks for coming and, we'll do tours for anybody that wants to come see.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: By the way, do you think one of the things we're hearing about and seeing in catalogs is manufactured housing companies are sort of branching out beyond single wides and double wides into, you know, ranch houses and regular houses that are built to state code, whatever that is, rather than that code. Do you see that in any real way competing with what you do?

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: I'm not, you know, I think the factos would be able to answer that question better than I would because they they have both, you know, they have one foot in both markets, right, where they they sell both product lines. And so they they'd be more familiar with, you know, how does the specification level of that upper line line up with, you know, what's being built otherwise locally. I just I don't know that answer. I mean, is something, you know, something we've looked at, something we've looked at there, you know, there'd be no reason that we couldn't apply, we could apply and become a HUD builder. Right? We could we could we could we could be certified to build to this to the to the HUD code. It's important to us though, and I'm being very careful in how I say this, it's important to us though to we have a floor of kind of a specification level that is important to us that we don't want to dip under, which the HUD code would definitely allow us to dip under, But we could become a HUD builder with a very and then seriously exceed their specifications. But be able to we're building a much different product but have a HUD certification. We looked at that years ago, philosophically I didn't agree with it, but you know we could have done that. We were looking at and I think you've had a lot of conversations about kind of existing manufactured home parks, which some towns zoning will further define that as being specific to HUD construction. Other towns don't make that link, right? They have a different term of what can be built in their parks, and we looked at it years ago as to well maybe should we just because there were, you know, people that were and it still is happening, right? Where there's a park not too far from where I live where, you know, they've been pulling out old, inexpensive, affordable, old manufactured homes and replacing them with essentially site built houses. They're playing around with the rules in the town and the rules in the park to allowing different construction to go in there. It's gentrifying the parks. I don't agree with that, but, you know, that's happening.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So you could, for example, just see let me see if I understand. In theory, you could build what looks like what would be a high quality single wide or a high quality double wide because you'll put in your Andersen windows. Correct. I'd still

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: put in, exactly, I'd still put in plywood sheathing, know, you know, our you know high insulation walls, Andersen windows, you know, essentially what we do, but go get a HUD certification. Right. I don't I'm not saying that I'm not I don't know why I'm bringing this up. I don't wanna do this, but it it is something we could do.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. No. I appreciate that. Questions for this nice man? Jason, this has been really helpful. Yeah. I really appreciate the detail. I think it's been useful for us, and thanks a lot for your time.

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: Yeah. Thank thank thank you all, and I'm always available. Email, phone call, testify, whatever you need. Keep up the good work.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: All right, take All

[Jason Webster (Huntington Homes)]: right, take care.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So at this point,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Miriam, if we don't do the field trip,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: we have nothing scheduled in the morning, right, as of now. But what I would like is if you could,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: well two things, one is I think it would be interesting to hear from,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: what's the name of

[Unidentified Committee Member]: the consultant to UTL,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: because I would actually like to find out what is it that they're putting in the single family residential houses and are they doing more than accessible or visitable in their others or not? The other is whether Sarah and Kelly could possibly be here tomorrow instead of Friday.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Sarah may be telling you now she's out of the country.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. So see about that, and everybody please watch, you know, check before the end of the day, check your schedule, check to see where things are. And maybe it

[Unidentified Committee Member]: would be good if there is a change, Miriam, if you could

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: just message the members of our wonderful committee. Is there anything else right now? Can I safely take us offline? We are adjourned.