Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Speaker 0]: Welcome everybody to the House Committee on General and Housing. Today is Wednesday, April 22, and what we're doing today is looking into the issue of universal design in housing. We have some draft language, which our council went over yesterday. It could be possibly incorporated in 03/28, but whether it's incorporated or not, we wanted to have some witnesses to tell us about what's going on, and our first witness is Mike DeRocheers, who's the Director of Fire Safety in the Department of Public Safety. Welcome, Mike.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Thank you. Good to be here. I appreciate the opportunity to come in here and kind of talk about this for a few minutes. Just for the record, I'm Mike Giroultra, I'm the Executive Director for the Division of Fire Safety. I've with the division now, it's going on thirty six years. So it feels like a long time. But nobody gets older, right? Nobody gets So I'm going start out just with a couple kind of eye level nopes. First of all, we don't regulate single family owned or occupied homes, so just so you're aware of that. But the Division of Fire Safety for years has regulated accessibility here in Vermont. Fact, since 05/04/1977, Vermont law has required new construction, addictions and alterations in public buildings to be accessible to people with disabilities. The Division of Fire Safety enforces the Vermont Access Rules, that is through the authority of 20 BSA Chapter 174. So also including, we enforce the Americans with Disabilities Act, the ADA accessibility guidelines, and if you read about it, it refers to it as the ADAC. So in 1996, Vermont adopted the federal accessibility rules, which are referred to as the ADA regulations. And all residential construction under the authority of the provision of fire safety must meet either the adaptable or visitable requirements that are in the access rules.

[Speaker 0]: So when you say the access rules, ones in 20 US, PFA 174? Correct. And those have been around since 1977?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Been around for decades.

[Speaker 0]: And this is only multi family, or?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: No, that's what it is, well, what I'll do is I'll kind of explain high level what is required for what, because it is a very complex arrangement here. So all new residential construction under the authority of the Division of Fire Safety has to meet what we call visitability requirements. And what visitability means, I'm going to go over some of my notes here. At least one 1st Floor exterior door that is at least 36 inches wide. 1st Floor interior doors between rooms have to be 36 inches wide, or open doorways that are at least 32 inches wide to accommodate walkers and wheelchair access. Anterior hallways that are level and at least 36 inches wide. Environmental and utility controls and outlets that are located at heights that are within 15 to 48 inches off the floor. And then in the bathrooms, there has to be reinforced between the stump bays in order to accommodate grab bars to be installed at a later date. So structurally, it's all there. Those items there are required in all residential construction under the authority on fire safety now, and has been for years. So that's that's the first thing.

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: So this is multi family construction that's under your jurisdiction, correct?

[Speaker 0]: But not the single family.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Right, so, right, so I'm gonna try to do this not to confuse anybody. So we have two tiers of accessibility requirements for residential construction, and they're defined as either visitable, which I just went through, and then you get more restricted based on the number of units, you then get into what they call adaptable dwelling units. And when you come into the adaptable dwelling units, those usually come into play when you have four or more dwelling units. So if you have a triplex, like three units or three townhouses, those three would have to meet the visitable standards I just mentioned. Once you get in the four or more dwelling units, at least one of those units has to be adaptable. And that is, the entrance has to be on an accessible route, the public and common use areas are readily accessible and usable by people with disabilities. Usable doors that are at least 36 inches wide with a clear opening of not less than 32, and no threshold greater than a half inch. So threshold at doors, no more than half an inch. And then a rail in through single storey dwelling units are through the primary level of the multi storey dwelling units, 36 inches wide with a 32 clear doorway. And then again, light switches and all that stuff between 15 inches and 48 inches, reinforcement in the restrooms, and usable kitchens and bathrooms, and those can be designed in accordance with the Fair Housing Act. So the Fair Housing guideline, which we have on our homepage, provides guidance on how individuals can maneuver around a kitchen to access controls, the range, refrigerators, dishwashers, all that stuff, so they give you all kinds of different layouts and commentary, and they show all the design parameters of that.

[Speaker 0]: Is that, are the fair housing rules federal or state?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: They're federal, but if there's federal funding involved in the housing project, those guidelines will come into play. One's to have a unit that is adaptable. So for triplexes and stuff, are three units in less than one unit. Elizabeth, go on.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Just so that I understand, out of a four unit building, one of those has follow these rules. You have a 10 unit building, does that mean one or two? So is it one out of every four, or is it in a four plex?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: They all have to be visitable, And all the then at least one of those, if there's no elevator in the building, So if it's three stories or less, then all the units have to be, I'll just make sure I'm right here. Right, if there's no elevator, all ground floor dwelling units shall be adoptable. So in buildings containing four more dwelling units with no elevator, all the ground floor dwelling units shall be adoptable.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: If there is an elevator? That mean that they

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Say all the units would be adoptable. Okay. Yep. I mean, there's so much technical stuff here, I would You know, you're talking about door approaches, all kinds of different design parameters here, you could sit in a class for days on technical design parameters. The concept of universal design, I have not been involved in these discussions of universal design, I don't think it's defined anywhere.

[Speaker 0]: You go into that, just want to go back, Mike, to one thing. So, I'm with you, I get everything you said, but the usable kitchen and bathroom in terms of the fair housing rules, is that only applicable to projects with federal money, or is it when we adopted those in some way?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Bear with me just a minute.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: He said that in 1996, they adopted the ADA accessibility guidelines.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: So, usable kitchens and bathrooms designed such that an individual in a wheelchair can move or adopt a space in accordance with the mandatory provisions of the Fair Housing Act. So that sounds like that is under the adaptability requirements, so that apply. Whether there's federal money or not, yeah.

[Speaker 0]: Alright. Is there I'm not sure I understand the relation so I'm just going to reflect back and see if I've got it right. Everything we're talking about applies only to multifamily. Or a duplex. Yeah, a duplex.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Plus one in each family.

[Speaker 0]: Not a single family. Correct. Okay, if it's a duplex or more, all new residential construction, all the units, have to be visible. Correct. Adaptable applies to the ground floor residents in a building with more than one story?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: A building containing four or more dwelling units with no elevator, so say you have a five unit townhouse building, there's no elevator, because it's not required, all ground floor dwelling units shall be adaptable.

[Speaker 0]: For more than four? Yep. More three, except four and above. Four and above, yeah. And if there's no elevator, adaptable means accessible common areas, the doors, low thresholds, a usable kitchen and bathroom via fair housing rules.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: For example, if you had a four unit townhouse arrangement where you had common area where people had a washing machine and dryer for example, the dining room. Right, those particular areas would have to be accessible. So any other common areas, if they had a game room or a day room or any of those type of

[Speaker 0]: configurations. And accessible is defined?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah, so it would be under the provisions of the visitability standards. Because those are in alignment with, as far as like door widths and all that, they're compatible.

[Speaker 0]: Okay.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: So what they've tried to do is address, I think what the intent behind universal design, just by reading what I have read, would be that if you have people aging in place and that kind of stuff, that your major elements are in place, so you don't have to make major structural modifications down the road to, you know, if you're ending up in a walker or a wheelchair or something like this. I think this does a pretty darn good job at that already. But I just thought I'd do a real quick overview of what we regulate right now. We also have the access board that is under the Division of Fire Safety as well. So if people want to apply for variances, because there are circumstances where a variance may need to be required because of either landscape, could be cost, it could be they're proposing some type of alternative or equivalency office prescriptive code requirements. And so the board, there's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine individuals on that access board.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Can I ask a question about the access board? It's not really related to this, but if a person wanted to add a ramp onto their house, would they go to the access board, or would they go to their zoning board? Where would they go?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: If it's a single family home, they would probably just go into town. And again, we don't regulate that. But if it's in a public building, then they submit a permit to us. And then we look at the slope to rise off the land and handrail, all that typical stuff.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Gotcha, thank you.

[Speaker 0]: So in terms of, interrupted you when you were about to start talking about universal design. Yeah, sorry.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: I don't know where that's defined. I haven't been involved in conversations or study groups dealing with universal design. What I can say is that we've worked alongside ACCD on some health initiatives in the 08/2002 Homes aspect, where if you're trying to come up with conceptual designs of housing to reduce costs, can we provide input into that, which makes sense to us? If we can do things to bring predictability to the permit process, we're all for that. Not only that, but then we can make the buildings even safer. So we're all in on this. The universal design, I just wanted to go over what we regulate, because this could have a lot of implications on rules, right? On our standards and rules and statutes that we enforce now, depending on how we're gonna define universal design, right? What does that mean? So I haven't seen any real detail as to what universal design is, but I wanted to put forth to the committee what we do now for regulating accessibility. And I think if you go across the country, we actually do a real nice job here in Vermont, relatively speaking, because we're into the residential construction. Most states probably don't get into the residential construction because I think the ADA regulations probably exempt them. Right? They exempt churches, they exempt, I think residential construction, townhouses, all that stuff, is probably exempt from the ADA federal regulations. So Vermont has its access rules that go way beyond the federal requirements. So I think, as far as initiatives on helping our disabled folks here in Vermont, we do a pretty decent job on the residential construction side on this nail. So I'm just saying to the committee, if something universal comes out, please just recognize that these standards are in play right now, have been for decades, and we would have to make some considerable adjustments to our rules and so forth if there's gonna be modifications.

[Speaker 0]: Before we go into questions, I just wanna clarify one thing. Do any of these visibility, accessibility, etcetera, requirements attach for an existing building that comes in for a permit for modification?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yes. So if you're going to take an existing apartment building and renovate it, then I've been out in the cold for a while, so just bear with me a little bit. There's disproportionality provisions where if the cost of the modification to make it accessible is going to exceed over 20% of the cost of the project, that would be considered disproportionate, and you would be exempt from having to make that specific improvement. However, we also have the authority to prioritize things, you start with outside the building to get folks in the building, so when you prioritize stuff you look at getting access to primary function areas, is what they term it. So there are times where maybe they can't make a unit accessible or change the restroom to make it accessible, but maybe they can put a ramp up to the building and reduce the threshold to get into the primary function areas and stuff. So there's a lot of, the variance board also plays into that too sometimes, because it gets a little complicated when you start getting into the disproportionality provisions. But there are provisions in rules and the statute for renovations to exist in residential construction.

[Speaker 0]: Yes.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: This has been helpful. What I'm getting is that we don't have any of these regulations for single family homes. And I guess my question is if we were to change the rules for this pilot program, that some single family homes in all of the stock in Vermont would suddenly fall under at least this regulation that you already oversee for units 34 and above. Would that be feasible, like in terms of the oversight or the I mean, it's designed, I suppose the level of reinforcement is like, is it complaints based or or the

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: you

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: know, when somebody goes to design a four bedroom a four unit, what's the process? And how onerous would it be to add these, however many, what have we been talking about the pilots, like 300 extra units? What is the manufacturing housing pilots supposed to?

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: It was three or five, I don't remember, I don't know where

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: it So, you know, between maybe up to 500 units that could be single family or could be duplexes, say. So they might not fall to the four and above threshold, but if we were to add that many units to the stock that has to be complying with these rules, would that be, like, really onerous for the state as of now, like, with with our staffing and resources?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah, we definitely would not support getting to any of the single family owner occupied homes at all, whether it's from a design perspective. I would also add that

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Sorry, you're saying, just to clarify, you wouldn't get into it, meaning can you be more specific? Sorry. So we're considering adding legislation that would say, when we design a single, a duplex or a triplex, where we will be using some state funds to put these out into pre buy purchased modular housing, how onerous would it be for the state to apply these housing requirements?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Well, I think it would be a challenge. Two things here. One is, if it is just a typical contractor or architect submitting a set of plans to us, they have to meet the visitability requirements if it's under four units. That's already in play. The modular homes are exempt from these accessibility rules. So if you're building, like purchasing modular homes from out of state,

[Speaker 0]: or mean manufactured

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Manufactured homes. Those can't, my understanding, I'm not going to get into it, I'm not an attorney, I can only tell you that, that's what the law says, is that they're exempt.

[Speaker 0]: I think the question is, let's say that that we were to a certain number of homes, single family residences, have adaptability or visitability requirements, does your outfit have the ability to administer that? No, sir. You don't have a personnel to do that.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Right, we just, I don't know how that would work legally for me. If I'm understanding, you're asking if we can exert jurisdiction like over in this pilot program for a structure that we currently don't have authority to regulate. So I don't know how that legally

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Well, we would give you the authority. The authority is not the problem, we've got you covered. Not a problem. We can lift that way. It's the actual oversight. We have CHIP programs and we have TIF districts. We're trying to encourage more housing to be built anyway and a lot of multiunit, which I would imagine is already going to be done. There are going be many more than four And unit housing projects so why would this suddenly pose, I'm not quite understanding why this would suddenly pose

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: much Well, because, heavier yeah, there's been, there's a lot of outside forces that would like to see us into the single family owner occupied homes. We don't have the resources for that, We don't want to get involved in the single family owner occupied homes. And we have opposed things on the energy efficiency side of things, dealing with single family homes. And this thing has unintended consequences of us being the state division of fire safety stepping into single family owner occupant homes. And so my position would be that we would oppose extending our authority into single family homes, even for a pilot program. If somebody wants to maybe sit down and say, does this particular concept here meet visitability standards or something In the design. Right, or something like that. But if we're gonna have legislative mandate that we're in the single family homes for anything, as I sit here right now, I would have to oppose that.

[Speaker 0]: Is someone in the Saudia?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: So just

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: trying to give some definition of what what we're talking about. I think, looking for your reflection on if we say we're making the bulk order of 40 of the same unit, and what we need is for somebody to review the plans before they're built, maybe somebody to go to the plant certified they're being built that way.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: That's it.

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: Maybe we don't call it jurisdiction, maybe we just call it something else. So that in the instance where the state is backing these particular units, that we know that they're visible and adaptable the best way. Yeah, I would- Without setting up responsibility and jurisdiction over every single time

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: the health and safety of some outward. Yeah, I would, my position would be that we would oppose any extension into single family owner occupied homes. So do you. If you're going to get into a design situation like that, you can hire an architect.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, thank you. Two questions, good morning. Good morning. Sorry about that. So two questions, which one, or a question or statement, rewinding back to the not being covered under manufactured homes or modular homes, because I know there are manufactured homes that are duplexes, and so are those not covered as well, even if it's multi unit? Four units and above. But he said manufactured homes are exempt. And so, my question is, because visibility is for duplexes.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah, is for all multi family housing. Yes. Whether it's two units, four units, five units. Adaptability is, I think, at four units and above.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Yes. However, manufactured homes are exempt and there are manufactured duplexes, so I'm wondering if those are also exempt because they are multifamily. Great question, and he's looking it up. Yes, I was just clarifying.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: I'm gonna have to get back to the committee on that, in the statute what it says is residential construction shall not include a single family dwelling built by the owner for the personal occupancy of the owner and the owner's family, or the assembly or placement of residential construction that is prefabricated or manufactured out of state. That's what

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: those Out of state manufactured

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: the homes. In state manufactured and modular homes are not exempt? No, I think the Prefabbed.

[Speaker 0]: Only the, it says single family residences or prefab or manufactured out of state. I think the manufactured is the only one that has the out of state, and they are all at the moment manufactured out of state. Okay. Including the people. Can we dive down, let's see, don't want to

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: put somebody's hand up. And Debbie had their hand too.

[Speaker 0]: Okay, go ahead. Debbie, I think you're next. I was just curious on these the egress for these buildings. If you're on the 1st Floor, you got ramps to come in, low thresholds, so I thought they may get into the unit. But with the egress, don't you need two ways to get out?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Not in residential construction, there's Boy, you're gonna make me dive into the bleeds here. If you get into more than three units, you're then into what we call an apartment building area. If you have a common entrance, and you have apartment entry doors that open into the stairwell, you can have a single exit, provided the building is sprinkler, you have no more than four units per floor and the building is less, or is three stories or less in height, and now you have one hour fire separation between the dwelling units and so forth. So there's, you're dipping into a whole another set of standards that provide fire protection and safety for those occupants that are outside the realm of the accessibility. And then when you get into exit enclosures in these multi unit apartment buildings, then you have to provide areas of refuge in those stairwells where somebody that is disabled can go into these two hour rated exit enclosures and all this kind of stuff. But the buildings are sprinkled. And then there comes into play some communications provisions along with that. Depending on how many units you have and how high the building is, horizontal and vertical fire separation between all the dwelling units, and fire doors on your apartments and on and on. But it's a good question, because we look out for that when we look at these multi unit apartment buildings.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Elizabeth? No, I was actually I trying to

[Speaker 0]: have a question. Can we talk for a minute about not manufactured housing, but prefabricated off-site modular housing, like what, let's say, Huntington Homes does? First of all, if they, like, when we visited their factory recently and they were in the midst of constructing a seven unit apartment building, know, in units, would that be covered?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: They would make those units visitable and so forth.

[Speaker 0]: Are they required by your would you guys inspect them, how would that work?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yes, it would get inspected.

[Speaker 0]: In their factory, or on-site?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: I can't tell you if it would get inspected at the shop or not. Or design versus, like, design would come to us, and the permit would come to us, and we would issue a permit.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: So,

[Speaker 0]: they fabricated that pre fabricated exemption, then I'm not sure what it really means, because there

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah, that could be like, well, you could take mobile homes, for example, things like that. That's one way you could interpret that. But I'll get back to you on that, because that area right there is a good question. Don't have the specific answer for you.

[Speaker 0]: One of the interesting things, just for you to think about and maybe get back to us, is what Jason Webster, you know, from Sure. He said, you know, they do a lot of housing for out of state, and what they do is they of course, most of the states they do it for have building codes that apply to single family residences, but apparently, whether it's a duplex or whatever it is, a state will hire a third party approver, and they come and they send them, and then Webster sends them the this is not news to you, then Webster sends them the full the plans, they okay them, it's consistent with code, and then they come to the factory and sign off. But we don't do that, do we?

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: We do some third party inspection services, I just don't know the exact details on how that works, but I know that there is oversight on these out of state manufactured homes.

[Speaker 0]: Other questions of Mike? Michael, this has been really helpful.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Well, I sound like I may have confused y'all.

[Speaker 0]: Actually, I think that's pretty clear. I mean, there's some open questions that we've left with you. I'd like to know what this prefab means, and you're getting back to us on the manufactured home exemption as it applies to duplexes. What other questions? Didn't we have a third question for Mike that he said he'd get back to us? No, okay. Thank you.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Thank all of you. Sorry if I confused you all.

[Speaker 0]: To egress, no, I think he It's really complicated.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Think you actually cleared up lot for me. So thank you.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Alex. Good morning. Alex Farrell, Commissioner of the Department of Housing and Community Development.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Chair, are you a sling? I am. Don't ask.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: All right. Fell

[Speaker 0]: in Ugo's on my way to the table, and dislocated my shoulder, causing me enough pain that I immediately ordered a Scotch, but it didn't do much good, and so I drove myself to the hospital where they relocated it, but here it is.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: The relocation's not very comfortable as I can.

[Speaker 0]: Actually, you know what, the guy was amazed, I said to him, give me morphine or something and then relocate it. He said, you know what, it's not going to hurt, and it didn't.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Pain just went, just like they say,

[Speaker 0]: from a 10 to a three. Wow! Instantaneous. That's good. But yeah, it's there. Sorry for the sidetrack. Yeah.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: It's a concern for your well-being.

[Speaker 0]: Thank you.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: All right, so I'll try to cover a fair bit of ground here because I think there are a couple of conversations happening at once. There's this broader conversation of universal design. What does that mean? Will this committee seek to define it or will this committee seek to adopt a definition that exists somewhere else? And then there's this discussion of the proposed amendment, which then again, branches off into two more detailed conversations.

[Speaker 0]: Also, Alex, I just wanna put on the table, I wanna revive something to just put it on the table. Remember our housing bill last session had in it a study with a committee designed to see if we couldn't come up with a definition of universal design, because the feeling was we didn't want to apply it if we didn't know what it was, like to be hip or whatever. And that got taken out in conference, which I remember all too well. And I think a question sort of in the back of our minds is, is that something we should do again? Would it be valuable or not? So, if you don't want to comment because it's off the cuff, don't, but if you do, don't resist yourself.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Sure, I may as well comment. I think at this time that may be a very worthwhile conversation. Don't want to speak. I haven't conferred with Director Derocher on that. So I don't want to say because I suspect it would likely involve his shop. So I'd want to confer with him for taking a firm stance, but I'd offer that perhaps that might be more productive than just applying it to programs before it's defined. So I'd say let's keep having that discussion. So I think what I want to do is set the stage because eight zero two Homes is implicated in the amendment. I think what I want to do is just give an update on eight zero two Homes, maybe a reminder of the process, who's doing the designs, where we're at right now. Maybe further set the stage by just saying, do appreciate this discussion of universal design. I do think it is good to get a better understanding, a shared understanding of what are we talking about here. I did spend a little time looking at the National Association of Home Builders and they share some examples of what universal design is. And it's consistent with, I think, what our understanding has been of universal design. Things like no staff entry, one story, widening doorways to 32 or 36 inches, more floor space and more open concept. These things I think were probably already all picturing, but these are listed out as examples. Again, I'd wanna do more research to better understand if someone has set a standard that could be clearly applied to say construction plans, similar to the code that Michael was discussing. So that's where I think we want some more clarity. I'd also offer, and this is just to sort of state it so it's agreed upon, these do have cost implications. I think Director Rutger would say, all the existing regulations have cost implications. It's not a bad thing, it's policy choice, right? That's fine. We just wanna recognize that they do have cost implications. A 30 inches door is gonna be a lot cheaper than a 36 inches door. So again, that's fine. We may decide we want to, in certain cases, make that investment upfront for accessibility, for marketability, for whatever benefit we want in the long run. I just want to agree upon that there are cost implications. I'm gonna shift gears. I'm gonna give an update now on where we're at in eight zero two Homes and some pieces of that that

[Speaker 0]: are

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: coming. So this is going be a bit of a refresher for most of you because I did this earlier in the session, but I think it's worthwhile. So as a reminder, eight zero two Homes is the third phase of a multi phase initiative. As sort of a further reminder, this was not legislatively initiated. This was not mandated by the legislature. This is an initiative that we took pieces and parts from our own budget to cobble together money so that we could undertake this initiative out of our own funds that had been appropriated to us, but not necessarily mandating this initiative. So this is something that we have chosen

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: to undertake on our own.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Here's where we are right now. We are reviewing some of the feedback that we've had as a result of the community engagement, the design workshops. You can see here we're about to send a statewide survey. There's also what's not on here, but which I'll talk about in more detail later, but I think it's relevant to the timeline. We have submitted an application to AARP to help us with more engagement and more design expertise on some of the age in place and accessibility components that are already factored in here. Did you say you have or you will? We already submitted a grant application. We'll hear back next month. So hopefully within the next couple of weeks, we'll hear back from AARP on that. So that's already happening. I'll talk more about that later. Gotta

[Speaker 0]: ask you a question about Oh, the last slide, sure. So where we are now is schematic design. That's not plans, right? It'd be a component of the plan,

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: so this would be the electrical, the electrical would look like in these critical break plumbing, so where some of the mechanics will be in these designs.

[Speaker 0]: I heard somewhere, I can't remember where, that we have schematic designs for both off-site modular and stick built on-site, is that right?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: That is what will be the final product of the catalog. Okay.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: It will have both.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Okay, thanks.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Yeah, which is an important component. So it's likely that you all haven't spent a ton of time looking through these designs, which is perfectly fine. They're still underway. But so as a refresher, when you look at each design, you will see what site the design is intended to cater toward. So you can see right here, in this case, a narrow site. You could probably picture in some of your villages or downtowns where you do have homes that are sort of thin and long and so we're trying to accommodate that recognizing that we do have a lot of these sort of vacant spaces in downtowns and build centers. You can see up here each design will identify which site type this is intended to accompany. So something like an outbuilding, we might have more flexibility because you've got open space, but you'll have some designs, like I said, narrow or wide where we need to alter the design to accommodate the site that it would be intended to fit on. Next, you have home design goals. So based on which sort of policy initiatives this is seeking to achieve, next to the design you'll see highlighted here. So as an example, stick with this right, what's called a railroad flat to single family. The design goals are age in place, be workforce housing, be a good starter home. And then at the very bottom, you're going to see are these designs intended to be occupied? So are these going to be for sale? Or are these going to be rental? So property owner is going to build it and then rent it to folks. All right, so those are the indicators on the right as you're looking at these. And when you flip through, what you'll see is we're trying to create a catalog of 10 that are diverse and can check a variety of policy boxes. So what we're trying to do is not blanket achieve any one policy objective on all of these. We're trying to create a suite, at least in this first set of 10, that will accommodate a lot of different scenarios. We've tried to, like I said, I guess aside from being straightforward enough designs that some of the folks coming out of our small scale developer academy could utilize these designs. So straightforward enough is one of our only blanket policy goals, as is to some extent cost trying to have smart designs that keep costs down by doing things like designs that will have reduced waste. So not as much cutting two by fours, things like that. Those are some of our blanket policy goals. So cost depends on attainability of these for small scale developers. Other than that, we try to create variety in the design so that different folks, different sites, different communities can access these for different purposes. We don't want to do too much blanket application of policy across the whole thing. And you can see these do go from those first couple that you saw that were single family up into duplex. And now we're going to start getting in, you can see intergenerational triple decker, where we're going to achieve multiple policy sites within one site. So each of the homes will check a different box within this site design. And now you're getting into the sort of larger multi family space four unit. And again, trying to create designs that if you don't have a nice wide open lot, but you've got a narrow space, here's how you can put four units on one of those lots. And it's going to blend in. It's going to look just like the neighborhoods you all live in. Glad I saw this. Some of these are actively being, I should say redesign, not redesign, are actively being redesigned. And again, here you can see up to the three story, four to six tenant. So those are the designs. That's where we're at in the process. Before I move off with this sort of direct update on eight zero two Homes, are any questions on these?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Thank you. And I

[Speaker 0]: think

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: this is very similar to what you presented to us earlier in the session. I wonder whether in this pilot study, if eight zero two Homes is used as a template for manufactured housing, how would you prioritize what's being ordered?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: So this is a good opportunity for me to step back and tie together several pieces that both in July and 03/28, I think there's an applied connection, but nowhere is there an explicit connection. So you have the LIAC increase in the credit facility. You have this pilot, which does not have any funding attached to it. And then I think there's sort of this unspoken potentially the developer who develops this could utilize this capital, right? So those are the three things that nowhere is it sort of barely stated, but those things are tied together. So I would, I'm not gonna say defer, but I would look to accommodate the developers sort of intent for a neighborhood. And that begins a negotiation process where we want to see a mix of some of these units depending on what the site is. So right now in Manchester, we're working with a gentleman who's interested in a demonstration project. Modular. What's a demonstration project? Sure. Just a project, but which I use the term demonstration project to mean that it would utilize elements of, say, this space, Gayle Pezzo, so that it could be a model for us to point back to to demonstrate how folks could

[Speaker 0]: And also, I assume, give you information on In other words, I assume at some point you're gonna want people to try these out and see what happens. That's right.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: That's right. And so when we can work with a developer on a larger project, which I think is the intent of the pilot listed here, we want to be able to find what worked and what didn't and then show others that it can be done. That's sort of the goal.

[Speaker 0]: Yes. Can I ask a question about eight zero

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: eight

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: zero two two Homes catalog is, it's not even funded from the legislature? You are funding it on your own. Once it's done, it's released to the public, are we then relying on state funds to build these homes, or are we relying on private developers? Okay, that's good.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: That's a good clarification. Yeah, that's right. So we used funds, and I guess to be entirely accurate, I should say yes. We cobbled together funds from our own budget. Our budget is always aside from the federal funds in one way or another appropriated by the legislature. But we were creative in pulling pieces from our own budget, sort of sacrificed other aspects of our operations so that we could fund this.

[Speaker 0]: So eight zero two Homes exists as an administrative process. It does not exist in state statutes. There's no place that says eight zero two Homes in the BSA. Or Homes for All.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah, that's right.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Representative Bartley makes another point that's important context, is that this is voluntary. Folks can or can choose to utilize these plans and these designs if they see enough benefit or they may not. So one of the reasons we're trying to create a suite of options is so that one design may work great for one builder or developer, but the others don't suit their needs. Which brings me to another point, is that this is the first 10. Our goal is to, over the years, keep building out a catalog that can check other policy initiatives. So just to give you a sense of some of the other sort of policy initiatives that folks have been interested in sort of applying blanket to eight zero two homes, we've had to sort of say, let us accommodate them by design, not blanket over the entire program. So historic preservation, that's just my department. They had a strong feeling that if we're going to create this catalog, these should all uphold sort of the strictest standards of historic architecture that suits the character of the time and the architectural design that these are attempting to emulate, that has the potential to complicate the designs, increase the costs, make them less accessible. So we had to say, yes, we're gonna take elements of the historic architecture, but not apply it like it, not apply the high standard. There's a question about efficiency. It's been said, these should all be sort of the highest standard of energy efficiency sort of above and beyond the twenty twenty four RVs. Again, we are achieving a very high standard of efficiency, probably more than a typical private builder developer would just opt to anyway. But we needed that flexibility for each design to not just say blanket, these are all going to be the most efficient. We're trying to keep these costs as reasonable as possible while still achieving the policy goals that you can see highlighted in each design. Yeah, accessibility is another one that came up. Should each one of these designs meet sort of the highest standard of accessibility. We're striving to incorporate as much as possible in the designs, but then also recognize that, say, maybe some of the 2nd or third Floor units aren't the most appropriate place for that. So let's utilize the opportunity with those 1st Floor units where we can have a ramp like this, what we see on the side to incorporate those elements. So we sort of shy away from this blanket application of policy because that could become inefficient. All right. Was there any others on these designs?

[Speaker 0]: I'm assuming that you're going to get into I mean, I'm curious how accessibility and visitability relates to these designs, but I assume that you're getting there.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Yeah, well, I mean, I think what I'd say is, you know, that is So Mike set a good sort of basis for the regulations that these will have to be aside from the single family. Even in, if you go back up some of the single family, design elements are already incorporated, say this is a single family, but it's being designed with age in place and mind. What I would encourage if the committee wants to hear more about specifically what design elements are incorporated in which designs, we could have you Teal appear before the committee and they'd be able to give you far more detail than I could. I really can't speak to the details of construction plans and the design systems, but I'd be more than happy to get you to.

[Speaker 0]: Chris is a witness, would he know more?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Chris isn't able to make it today, but he would also say that UTL would have to be.

[Speaker 0]: UTL, okay. Yeah. That's the company that's designed this.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: That's right. That's That's who right, we contracted with. So, that's sort of the blanket.

[Speaker 0]: So single family, okay, the multi unit, the multi family units, they just comply with what Mike was telling us about. They comply with visitability, or if there are more than four units or more,

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: adaptability. As a baseline, but because of some of the intentional age in place components, I don't want to say definitively I've been told that I'm confident that they go above and beyond just what's required. But again, our application to AARP is specifically geared towards getting more engagement and specific expert oversight so that we can make sure that where we are trying to encourage, say accessibility and age in place very specifically, that they help us find the best ways to do that. We're going to engage with I think the goal is to engage several 100 Vermonters over the age of 50. Rehabilitated conversations with several dozen residents over the age of 50. That's what AARP's role would be in helping to. So I think that sort of tees us up and you can probably sense from some of my comments already where I How I'm thinking about this amendment, which is that, I think as drafted, I wouldn't be supportive of this amendment, not because I'm not supportive of, I think the intent. I think we're all on the same page with intent. You can tell we're already doing that in eight zero two Homes, trying to incorporate accessibility and some of these design elements as it is. So I'll start with eight zero two Homes and then I'll work backwards in the amendment, go back to the outside construction, etcetera. I'm starting with eight zero two Homes. But I think some of the language in here, it's prescriptive enough to just say each draft of design. And I think you heard me clearly earlier say, I don't think it's wise to apply a blanket to all of the designs. We are being very intentional to make sure that we have designs in the catalog that would accommodate these needs so that different designs meet different needs for different populations. So I wouldn't be supportive of the eight zero two halls catalog component of the amendment. I I think to the point that was raised earlier, have a little discomfort. I mean, it's certainly within the authority of the legislature to start, I'd say, imposing new mandates on an initiative that was undertaken administratively. It isn't something that we are eager about if we're already undertaking an initiative to have an unfunded mandate come in of partway through the initiative. So then working backwards in the amendment to the pilot, I think I'll make a general statement about the pilot because the pilot is something that I've talked with a lot of members of this committee about, and in concept, it's something that we, as the administration, have initially raised as something to consider. However, since the budget didn't allow and there's not an appropriation tied to it, I think there needs to be a new element of the pilot giving flexibility to acknowledge that this is contingent upon funding. I think the underlying assumption that I stated before is that it's contingent upon LIAC funding. I think we're at the point now where it needs to be explicitly stated that without LIAC funding, ACCD can't be held responsible for seeing this project move forward. We can't compel someone to undertake a development

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: without funding.

[Speaker 0]: As you said earlier, the assumption in the pilot program is that these are private projects, so they'd be funded by a capital stack that might or might not include lack funding. Right. But, in other words, it's not done through some revolving fund that involves the state, And that lack of involvement is either some sort of guarantee or warranty for a bulk order to allow someone like Huntington Homes or whomever to open up a major change in their production line or maybe as part of the capital stack, but it's still a private enterprise. So, are you talking about administrative money for you guys? Well, no, let me be more clear. We can layer on all the requirements we

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: want in a pilot project, but then what authority or what leverage or what means do I have to impose any of these, whether it's universal design or anything else on any pilot project? If it's just a developer undertaking this on his own, and I show up with a piece of paper that says, all right, now you're gonna do, make sure it meets all of these requirements, you're gonna make sure they all meet universal design, They're going to say, No, thank you. I'm going to do the development the way I want. So if the intent is to have a project that moves forward with certain requirements and with certain elements and utilize as modular, there will need to be funding to enable sort of mandating that, I'd say. And it would need to be commensurate with the costs associated with whatever requirements are in the pilot.

[Speaker 0]: But let's forget for a moment about any mandates, because they weren't there, let's say. As I understand it, the idea simply is, it is voluntary, in that you would be playing the role of aggregator. In other words, a bunch of smaller rural projects would come in and in some way you would aggregate them into an order, which wouldn't be three units here and four units there or five, it would be 40 units. What we've heard from Jason Webster is, yeah, well if you want to make it cheaper, would be great if they were all one type of unit or close, you know, like, which imply it implicates eight zero two homes. Right. But it's all voluntary. Yeah. So if if it stays that way and there's no imposition of a standard, then we move ahead as we have in

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: the legislation as it exists. We certainly can. Think there just needs to be the understanding that there's a very real possibility that ACCD could come back in three years and say

[Speaker 0]: Nobody showed up. No, exactly. Right. Okay, Tom, and then Yes, go ahead for Tom first. You're next. So

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: making sure I'm clear, or to Tony's question, we have three complementary things here. We have the LIHEAP funding, we have the bulk purchasing program,

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: we

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: have eight zero two homes. Yeah. They may or may not be used in combination. Correct. Applying the standards we're talking about to eight zero two Homes, that's a that that's required for developers who are using the plans that are not using Wi Fi. Might build as their design or not. Have bought purchasing pilot program, which may or may not involve WIAG or two homes. It might be a design that Huntington already has in their catalog that suits. It might be a design that someone else comes up with for farm worker housing, or assisted living for people with disabilities, intellectual disabilities. It might be a different design entirely If we were to, even if they use LIAC, they might not be using it or to homes. I mean, they're using it bulk purchasing, but they're a large enough contractor to put in a whole fault border of their own, they might not need anything, something like that. That's right. There a spot? To which of those three things would we, if we were to attach some requirements to the effect of, you know, the building specs would include accessibility, excuse me, not accessibility, visibility and as or defined by, because what I hear fire safety describing is a significant overlap. If if we're asking that the homes that are built in the bulk purchase program incorporated those same things in the building specs, I don't know if that captures what we're looking for. And and, you know, ask you to put it in the building specs for single family homes doesn't necessarily mean that to be inspected and everything else. It just says this is what we want to get inspected to. And then he gives the contractor something to base their pricing on. When they get down into the weeds and the nitty gritty, he could say, yeah, can go tell you these for Make my money. So I I know just posing the question out loud. Is that the place in to to say, you know, bulk purchases will include the building specs, these out. Does that capture it or is that the spot?

[Speaker 0]: I think this is committee discussion, but did you have a question?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: I was gonna say yes. And I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing if a developer decides not to use state funding. If a developer decided to find other funding, that's a good thing, not a bad thing, right?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I'd offer that absolutely. I mean, most development happens without state funding. Just to circle back to my earlier point, though, if they're not utilizing funding from us, it just means that there's just no reason So they would adhere to if we could insert, say, this universal design requirement in here, it's just one more reason someone would choose not to do this potentially. Which is not fair. Sure. I mean, depends on what the committee's goal is. If the committee's goal is to make it more likely that someone would take on a pilot project, you'll want to sort of maybe reduce the requirements. If the committee says, No, let's set a really high standard knowing maybe no project happened, but that's okay. We wanna see what would happen if we set a high standard. Then that's an option too, but I think just those realities have to be acknowledged.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: And I would say on the

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: other side of that, that

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: if

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: our goal is to create housing, that's not necessarily reliant on state funding. It's our treasure. This is our state treasure. And if the goal is to build as much housing as possible, that not relying on state funding is actually not a negative impact. Not at all. But the question is, what do we want to spend our treasure?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Was there another personal question for Alex? And additional context is, I think, to a point you made up, Charlton, is that someone could choose to seek LIAC funding and say,

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: But I'm not going to do it. I'm not going You're

[Speaker 0]: pilot program. I mean, the concept of the pilot program was different. Okay. Any other questions of Alex?

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Just going back, I'm sorry, hopefully it's quick question. Just going back to sort of mid beginning of the testimony, did you say that many of the elements are already being incorporated that according to private safety standards?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Certainly, mean, that would fall under their jurisdiction already will meet all of those as a baseline, and then I'd say in many cases they will exceed that. It would be interesting for U. E. To speak to.

[Speaker 0]: Yes, in other words, one of the questions, it's an open question, I'm hearing you say, we're talking about Multifamily residences are gonna have to comply with visibility and accessibility. So the question is, what about the single family residences? Of the 10 designs, how many are single families?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I believe two.

[Speaker 0]: Okay, so we're talking about the railroad flat.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: And the starter home.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Railroad flat, starter home. I'm sorry, there are three because there's a, it's called the four square starter home and then a paired starter home. So it's, well, I guess the paired is technically a duplex, which would fall under standards that might disrupt. So it's really two that wouldn't, but I'd say again, sort of to my comment as to why do I not want language like in this amendment that applies blanket across all of this, but we have one design that intentionally incorporates age in place and accessibility requirements. And then another that is more trying to achieve just let's just have a starter home. So it might have different design elements that, you know, don't intentionally take that extra step.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Right. Yeah. Which is, that was just another final question. Is that, you said it's a catalog, so of, to not mandate, I'm not, because I, what I'm trying to understand is, I don't think the intent of the amendment was to mandate a specific thing for each unit, it was to say to incorporate to the best of their ability, the elements of similarly to the way the other thing is. And so I'm curious if in the catalog, if those elements could be just added as how complicated that would be to add them as options in the catalog or choices for the units that people wanted. Because if you're gonna be making options, is that not an option to put that in there as an option? Does that be

[Speaker 0]: the way

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: That's can get a great question. Yeah. Could we essentially provide here's the base design, here's how you can modify it to meet certain-

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: There's some elements that could amplify the accessibility of the design.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I think it's likely that that will be a part of science. I want you to come to give you more specific answers, but my sense is yes, that can absolutely be accomplished. Really the goal and the intent of our grant application to AARP, and we're grateful that they've already been participants in this whole design process is to engage more in exactly asking those questions. So I guess just summarizing, I'm not supportive of the language, not because I'm not supportive of the intent. We're already doing it and I'm almost never eager about new mandates on

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: a program

[Speaker 0]: we're already

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: undertaking.

[Speaker 0]: So I just want to again reflect back what I'm hearing from you. You're concerned about, in addition to just the, don't want rigid requirements, you have a little bit of a concern that comes from the, if you will, administratively voluntary nature of this whole program? Yes. Okay, it. Any other questions for this man before we let him go?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Thank you, Alex.

[Speaker 0]: Much appreciated. Could you send Miriam the contact for UTL?

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: I can, yes.

[Speaker 0]: And next, Dan? Is it Sam and Ashley? You know what, Ashley? There's another chair, why don't you vote right there, why don't you vote

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Just need a bed here.

[Speaker 0]: Better than

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: once, I'm hard to forget.

[Speaker 0]: So, why don't you identify yourselves again, just for the record?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: De infecto, affecto homes.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: And Ashley Beverly with affecto homes.

[Speaker 0]: So, we're discussing accessibility, visitability, and the whole concept of universal design, and people wanted to talk to you because we wanted to know whether in the manufactured home world, people are thinking about this, and whether the homes that you get meet any of these criteria, whether the HUD design has elements that meet these criteria, whether there are options that can be ordered, how does it work? That's what we're trying to get a sense of.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah, mean, they will accommodate. I have been told by our some of the reps, they they don't do for instance, like, they won't do a handicap accessible shower, for instance, they'll do a a low threshold. You know, there there's terminology that they won't cross the line on, but they will do the low threshold, which is a collapsible barrier, roll in shower, you can have a seat, it's got grab bars, they'll do higher toilets, you can have grab bars there, they'll do three foot entry doors, three foot interior doors, you can get the roll under a sink in the kitchen, you can

[Speaker 0]: have a But these are options.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: There are options, but there there are accommodations in terms of accessibility accommodations, yes. Yeah, they're not standards, but I mean they're not a as long as like for instance, like you'll have a hallway, if you've got a hallway and you want a three foot door, you've got your moldings and you want a little space, of course any bedroom that's off the hallway is going to have to shrink as a result, but it can be done. So it's, you know, sometimes it's just a matter of manipulating one or the other, it's nothing, I mean, sometimes it's just a little bit of money.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: What does that cost, what does that little bit of money look like? Like if you're looking at a plan and so were to implement that, how

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: costs I mean, to give you an example, the toilets are, for example, like the higher toilets, let's say they're abusive on the cost, we can get them low for, you know, worst case a couple $100, I mean it's a

[Speaker 0]: So, you guys do this?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: No, if we had to, we'll get a case like that, but I mean like the doors, 30 to $50 per door for a 36 inches versus a 30 inches, as far as the shower, the low barrier, the low threshold, let's say we start without seats, you're gonna be, depending on the factory anywhere from $1,500 up to $3,000 The rule under the pedestal sink, 100, dollars 200 versus the standard. You could do a house, know, with the basic accommodations, I'd say for 3 to 5,000, I think would be pretty reasonable. With the exterior doors, we always try to do 36 inches, because at some point someone gets a refrigerator that doesn't fit, I get a call. You know, and there was no reason not to, because it fits.

[Speaker 0]: So you guys usually inspect something at 36 inches?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: We usually do the exterior doors, but I always tell people if nothing else, especially for the master bedroom, bath and closet, if you want to age into the home, it's just plus moving stuff in and out of there.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah, it's just the functionality of the space, the three foot interior door, especially for bedrooms, is just more accessible for egress as well as furniture.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah, well, that kind of stuff is not a big deal.

[Speaker 0]: But is there anything in the base design at all that addresses these issues? No, I gather.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: No, I mean it's set

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: to it'll be set to HUD code, the HUD you know, all the manufactured housing guidelines, you know, for instance, have to have, you know, for the fire and safety, for example, I don't know, but as far as you'll have like distances, sizes of windows, but that addresses those kinds of things, nothing that's above and beyond normal accessibility. But they do have options, but it's not built into the face design, no, beyond.

[Speaker 0]: Do people typically order or do they just typically come in and buy? What's on the lot?

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: There's been a little bit of a shift in that trend recently. COVID put a little bit of urgency on a lot of things, but housing specifically. So there was a shift to people just taking what we had in terms of inventory and making it work for them. As interest rates are unpredictable and continue to be unpredictable, as the economy continues to be unpredictable and costs unfortunately continue to increase both on the house and the infrastructure side of things, we're noticing people are more trending back towards wanting to spend their money on what they want long term versus taking what's available. And like Dani alluded to earlier, we do see more and more people thinking of that long term aging into what they are purchasing versus it being a five, ten, maybe fifteen year and then selling it again. People just aren't moving up and cycling through the housing cycle the way that they used to. They're purchasing and staying put if they're able to purchase.

[Speaker 0]: Yes.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Do you think that changes the Vermont housing market insofar as, if we were, let's say for funsies, that we built for that market, that this effort was geared towards people who single were families, let's say, just for funsies. I know that's not what we're doing. But let's say we were building all single family residences and that we were building in response to the market trend, which is a lifelong help versus a ten, fifteen year long residency. Do you think that would help our housing stock as far as, one of the areas of need is homes that accommodate older Vermonters. Do you think that could eventually cycle through to the degree that we can alleviate that need? Are you following me? Or have I had too much coffee? I

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: mean, you're saying that trend will resolve

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: If we invested in that trend, would we eventually, because right now we have, we already know that we have the terrible dichotomy of lack of inventory and over inventory, like too much underutilized housing, largely because we have older Vermont shirts living in housing that is too big for them or doesn't fit them.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: To get them to rotate Exactly. If they

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: were able to move to housing like this, then

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Free up

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: the We've been talking about trying to unclog that for years. Do you think that that think in terms of the Slowly. In theory, the catch to that or the other side of that is unfortunately it's not just the inventory that's dictating that cycle, kind of occurring how it has naturally, if you will, over time. It's also people's the buying power, affordability, costs you maintain long term when you're getting into property tax rates, insurance costs. That's what I see a lot of our older demographic that we would have seen honestly coming in to downsize because they were selling their family home that they no longer need. It's a hard justification to not have a mortgage and they know what their costs are with their property taxes and mortgage insurance is right now. That realistically, even if they were to sell just because of costs with new infrastructure, new construction, and again, interest rates, mortgage rates, things like that, that even if the inventory was there at an affordable price point, a lot of them are going to be really hard pressed to give up that either low, low interest rate that they locked into for refi during the COVID era interest rate times or get into any kind of payment that they're not serving up. If they like their neighborhood, their area they know back. So leaving what they're familiar with, especially in a very unfamiliar world is a very hard thing to do regardless of the financial aspect. And that's where, not to get off topic, but like the ADU stuff, the duplex stuff, I think that's where that would kind of help not solve a problem, but help alleviate some of that congestion in what should be the natural real estate cycle that's happening.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Right, our idea, I mean our in house idea, which I think is the idea of a lot of partners is an ADU is good because you age out of your house, the kids can't find a house, you put the house on the property, the kids watch you. It's a perfect scenario. We think that ourselves, that's with push, it's one thing we're seeing with that. I mean it's a little more complicated for the financing side, that's one thing that's holding

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: it up, but I

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: think that's a good answer to it because either, you know, for instance, we have a double wide duplex. Family comes in, they've had their house for twenty five years, thirty years, kids can't find a place, parents want to help them out, they buy a two unit house, sits on their property, resolves everything. You've got two families that are housed and everyone's happy. I mean, that's kind of the idea, we're, that we're seeing, I mean, financing is a little more complicated on that's, I think that if that can get freed up, those kinds of programs, that will kind of take the spirit of that law or that bill and allow it to happen. It's just otherwise you have

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: to cash or you have

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: have a tremendous amount of equity.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Think those kinds of things too will

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: help facilitate additional housing. Have

[Speaker 0]: you had experience selling these double wide duplexes? We've just started.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: They're like relatively new in the HUD industry within the last couple of years. So we just were able to start bringing them in for inventory. But last year, we got a single wide and now we have both a single wide and a double wide for display on our lot.

[Speaker 0]: We did see the single wide with them yet. Is have you noticed yet? Have you sold one?

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Not yet. Again, the financing is kinda tricky because it's not considered a single family home. It's a multi family home. And that's when it classifies it as a commercial product for the loan side of things, which- And the insurance as Yeah. So nine heads out of 10, not even nine heads out of 10, banks are going be looking for at least 20% down, which again, lot of people just don't have. Champion housing doesn't apply because it's single family only, which does make sense to a point, but that's another conversation I won't get into.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: No, but those are the kind

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: of things that I think those can help of reach the wheels of things, to keep things moving. I think in a lot of ways the parts and pieces are there, it's just it's not, know what I mean, it's

[Speaker 0]: not current. Got it. Questions for Dan and Ashley. This is actually really helpful. I know we've only been here for a few minutes, but I think it's what we need to know. By the way, I do have one other question. You know, came, when we were visiting, I grabbed one of those catalogs, these companies, and they're way beyond single whites and double wides, they're making 1,500, 1,200, even 1,800 square foot manufactured houses.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Do

[Speaker 0]: you sell a good number of manufactured houses that are not single wide or double wide, but are just houses that are gonna go on a lot somewhere?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: The modulators you're talking like the because there's there's two types of houses we sell. There's the HUD, which is the single wides and double wides, Then there's the modulars that are built to state code, like, you were to state build a house.

[Speaker 0]: Oh, so wait. HUD on the HUD code is only for for

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Single wides and double wides. Yeah. Which now they're doing duplexes, but they're still some single wides and double wides, but

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: those are the HUD code.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: The modulars, which you're probably looking at, you know, for instance, like, you can either have a ranch, a can, a two story, in fact, you're gonna have multi year.

[Speaker 0]: We think of those as still manufactured. They come out of the factory in Pennsylvania.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Right. Yeah. They technically, exactly. It's just it's just like the They

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: don't fall under the umbrella of manufacture, technically, but the the building code, the construction, and the financing are different on the hub side of things versus the modular, which is the site specific. They're built, but

[Speaker 0]: they're produced in a factory, so to what code are they built? To the state codes.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: To building codes.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah. Boca, or you'll have, you know, for instance, like roof load. The easiest one's always the roof load.

[Speaker 0]: So some sort of but they don't know where they're gonna be used.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: We have to we have to provide a site address for building specs and quoting purposes early on in the project so that it can conform to full zoning requirements.

[Speaker 0]: And when you do it in Vermont where there is no code, what do you do? Well, there's there's

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: There are load and Yeah.

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: Engineering criteria. Yeah. Electrical

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: and Right.

[Speaker 0]: Is that just the the we use the international building code for that?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: It's well, we it's it's a yeah. There's elect there's updates for the outdoor. There's insulation. The insulation's a lot more stringent for the site build stuff. But yeah, as far as, yeah, it'll be built to, with the, and then for instance, they'll have it stamped, typically they're out of the NTI out of Indiana. They send the plans off to be inspected with criteria on the insulation factors. But yeah, there's certain things that we have to do, for instance, like the smoke detectors will be to whatever we need here, we do triple pane windows, higher insulation on the outside walls.

[Speaker 0]: So they are all built to order?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah. And unless if we have like a stock model, for instance, we may sell a house that we spec for, know, Vermont the the a house like for a lot that we put on our property, we put it at 16 on center, that'll go up to 90 pounds. It may only be rated for 50 because the site address is 50. We can just get it specced out and confirmed for another area. But usually it will be overbuilt for wherever it's going. It's just that's the only time where it's not site specific, it's a lot of them.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: And most of that, like 98% of our market for the modular side is order. They're ordering, they're choosing their customizations. There's more flexibility in the modular design in terms of what can be left out and finished locally, like flooring, toilets, that kind of thing. With the single white, double white, you don't have that option. Everything has to be installed at the factory and approved before it can ship. I apologize that I was having word outside the door, but can you just reiterate what you mean by HUD code?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: HUD is, for instance, trailers.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: You just wanna say

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah, HUD code for manufactured housing, not for

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: The module, Right? Because there's Yeah. So let's put everything under the let's say manufacturer's umbrella for everything.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Yeah.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Then you'll have modular, which is state specific code.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: And then mobile or HUD code, which is Got it.

[Speaker 0]: Double wise and Yeah. Single Which now under the if the senate and house didn't get it together, won't have to have chassis.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Right. And I wanna that's right. They're gonna work on a multi level too.

[Speaker 0]: If they if they don't if they come to you, the single wise, let's say, come to you without a chassis, how do you move them?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: They would come with a temporary chassis. Temporary? Yeah. Like our modulars typically well, the modulars always come with a with a metal frame under them that's lag they're lagged to that, and then they'll take out the lag bolts and then they crane it off of that and then the frames go back to the factory. Those are reused several times. They're so expensive.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: We can't lose them.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Let's say you were building a HUD code home, could you add on facets of adaptability or visitability to

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: the HUD code?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Wait, more accessible showers and things? Oh yeah, yeah, put it.

[Speaker 0]: In other words, I think that, remember fifteen minutes ago when they were going through all the different Yep. Like, you know, a higher toilet, more accessible shower, and that's with the double blinds and single blinds. You could also spec in Europe for Do the larger any of these designs that are in that catalogue, are any of them multifamily?

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Not probably in the ones that were in our lobby. Again, the market needs shift and more and more people are looking at either diversifying their income streams to help offset cost of living or looking into multi generational homes or housing, either for aging parents or to have family close by or help out with childcare, whatever the case may be. Sorry, my brain just skipped a beat.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: It's heading that way, it's heading that way. There's some of it- It's

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: not there now. It's just a push of, yeah, there's some, more and more of our factories are starting to see kind of, again, more of a national trend towards multi generational and multifamily housing needs So as a I think we're starting to see a little of a trickle in the factory brochures that are produced and printed that we then distribute. We've already put together some of our own internal stuff to utilize within our team, but not necessarily for handouts for people.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Some of the factors too there, it depends on how busy they are. The less busy they are, all of a sudden they're much more flexible. For instance, if they're in the meat of the market, I mean they want single family ranches and caves and occasional two stories, but if the more difficult the economy is, you know what we've seen, there's some of them that do a rich faculty, like projects with fifty, sixty, 70 units, and they do college dorms, they do all sorts of things. It's just, it's cubed, mean it's a big Lego set, yeah, they can do it, it's just that sometimes it's just a matter of what the economy is calling for. Did you say Ms. Krasnow? Ms. Krasnow.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: What?

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Thank you.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Aside from the purchasing of homes, you all also have like developments that you do that are rental available.

[Speaker 0]: Correct.

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: Yep.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Are those units modulars or what are those stick builds?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: We started stick building.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: You started stick building your developments? Yep. Okay, great. Were there? I'm just trying

[Alex Farrell (Commissioner, Department of Housing and Community Development)]: to They were, yeah.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: We're copying the same plan we templated for the approval, which is that we found it's a bit more cost effective and it keeps the guys busier because we have them all winter. It's just more reason to-

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Keep some inside before it's a little warmer, which makes them all happier over the winter months.

[Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: They're very

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: important to keep them around. Well,

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: are any of those units accessible or adaptable?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: They are both. They are. Yeah, because typically what we'll do is, for instance, the downstairs units, we'll do one with the barrier, low barrier, and then the other one has a tub shower in the main, for example, but in the event where someone needed it, it's got the spacing and it's got the, you we do the grab bars. We don't do the roll under kitchen, with the bathrooms as far as the sinks and the bathrooms, I'd say, they're all pedestaled. But yeah, we

[Speaker 0]: try to account for it,

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: plus I think we have to, but it's a good thing too, mean we want long term people.

[Speaker 0]: But you don't do the role under kitchens because that's a real modification.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: It's a modification, it's one

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: of those things here for, if it ever comes up, we'll deal with it then, but it's just for, you know, to Yeah. It's just that sounds terrible, but it doesn't look as good at first if it's not needed. Know, it's one of those things where, plus you lose some yeah. You lose some functionality. But if it's there, I mean, obviously, we can do it. If it was needed, that's not a problem.

[Speaker 0]: Other questions of these wonderful people?

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: I do wanna say I appreciate, so I went back after our field trip, it's been another day, another Because I was like, oh, we were looking at the rental units. We were looking at I'm like, it's really impressive. Yeah. The amount of stuff that you guys are doing to try to address the housing aspect. And that's why I asked because I know you do have other than just selling of the individual homes. I looked at the communities that you have, that you're working on and I think it's fabulous. It's a lovely way to do that. That's why I wanted to see how much of that can be done and is being done in a way that can meet the need. And you attested to the conversations that you've had with folks who are some looking to age in place and thinking about those modifications ahead of time. And I also, we had a very interesting conversation about other things in regard to the rental units and it was just really great. So I just wanna say thank you for contributing

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: in

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: a positive way to the housing landscape and in a diverse way, because I appreciate housing diversity. And that's part of what it is. It's not just, we need more units, we need

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: Right, the right units.

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Other

[Speaker 0]: questions? I have one last question. I'm dying to see a factory. Yep. They're too far away for us to go on a committee visit, because, you know, they're in Pennsylvania, right?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Right, every time when we have tried that.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah, have you been?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Yeah, I've been to a few of them, but it's something, yeah, it's a-

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: It's really, yeah, you never, I mean, I've been to a couple too over the years, and it's just like setting a house, right? If you see us setting a home, you see a crane out there, like if you have a minute, and watch, because it really is, it's quite a feat to see what they do.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: From a metal, yes, from the behind us, from a metal frame, next thing you know, they're flipping later. I mean, it's just, it's quite a, it's a yeah. If you ever wanted to set up a time, I I do. Yeah. Would say And one

[Speaker 0]: thing, I'd just let you know, the off session

[Michael Desrochers (Executive Director, Division of Fire Safety, VT Dept. of Public Safety)]: Yeah.

[Speaker 0]: I'm at least gonna call you, and I may see if anybody else wants to go along. We don't have any money for that kind of multi day trip that I have found yet, but we'll because I don't think we could get to the factory and get back in a day we'd have to stay overnight.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

[Ashley Beverly (Fecteau Homes)]: It'd be a long day if you try to.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: You're saying it, yes.

[Speaker 0]: Where are these places?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Well, on the fact that we deal with seven of them, whether it be like Nifflinburg, Elizabethtown, but they're all, most of them are Central to South Pennsylvania. Some are a little bit more West like Clarion, but they're all about eight, seven, seven and a half to nine hours away.

[Speaker 0]: Yeah, and has Quebec got a factory?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: There there are factories, but I would the only thing I would say, it's not gonna be there's gonna probably be different building techniques, plus their their HUD, I'm not familiar with their, well, equivalent HUD.

[Speaker 0]: Right. Yeah. Okay.

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: That I'm not familiar with.

[Speaker 0]: And when you visit, do they take some time so you can sit down and ask them questions?

[Dan Fecteau (Fecteau Homes)]: Oh, you if you if you were to go, I could set it up with one of the reps that they'll they'll give you a tour of it. I mean, it's a you walk through the stations and you'll see, for instance, this is the, you know, the sheetrock, the electrical frame rail, in whatever position each one is, and they'll go through it.

[Speaker 0]: Well, I'll be in touch with you over the summer, and I'll let everybody know what's going on, and then I don't know whoever wants to ride along, but we'll have to pay for a motel and meals and all that. So, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it. Thank you. Members of the committee, our next witness comes at eleven, we're gonna take a fifteen minute break. I'll tell you, our next witness is someone you know. It's