Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Welcome everybody to the House Committee on General and Pounding. See many faces here. It's April 16 today, Thursday, and we are going to start our day with an update on paid leave and how it's working or not working, etc. We have four witnesses, and I think we'll start with Beth Besigi. Beth, do you want to come up and join us? Beth? But you know what I'm going to do? Let's see Clark. I'm just looking who's here. Clark is here. Let's and go introduce ourselves, even though Beth has been with us, there are too many new faces in the room.

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: I'm Debbie Dolgin and I represent St. John's Mary, Concord and Kirby.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: I'm Carlton. Beth is Chester Crafton.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Good

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: morning, Ashley Bartley, Fairfax in Georgia.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Good morning, Mark Mihaly, thank you, Mark Hewlett Callis, Emilie

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Krasnow, South Burlington.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Good morning, I'm Elizabeth Burrows, and I represent Heartland, West Windsor, and Windsor. Good morning, Gayle Pezzo, Chittenden, 20, Polchuck.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So there you go, Beth. As we discussed before, you actually started testifying, feel free to have Clark or whomever you want comment, or even if you want to testify jointly, if that's fine too.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Okay, well thank you. Good morning, I am Jeff Fastidge, I am the Commissioner of the Department of Human Resources, and with me is Clark Collins, who is our Director of Benefits, Wellness, and the Lead Management Unit. And I'm excited that we're all talking about this topic today, because family medical leave insurance is an important benefit for the state of Vermont employees, as well as the Vermont workforce and our economy. Workers frequently need time away from the job, whether to care for a newborn or support a family member facing a serious health challenge, recover from their own illness, and these are just all common human circumstances. Our workers expect more than a paycheck, they want to see an authentic commitment to economic security. They want to have fair wages, comprehensive benefits, and paid time off, as well as an employer that's interested in the employee's well-being. But not every employer can afford to provide all of these and remain viable, which is why this paid family leave program, we call it FMLA, is such an important resource for both employers and workers. The availability of the FMLA benefit allows employers to retain employees and for employees to maintain an income during periods when they cannot work. And for our state, the program sends a signal that this is a place where we care about each other and where work and family go hand in hand. With this approach to pay time off, balancing both access without a broad based tax, we're creating the conditions for Vermonters to thrive at work as well as their communities. As employers compete for workers in a tight labor market, this program helps retention, which is a more effective workforce development strategy than recruitment oftentimes. I'm very excited that we watched this program in three phases, they have all been completed, and the program is fully functioning in 2023, in July 2023, working with our vendor, The Hartford, who was selected following a competitive bidding process, we began providing the family and medical insurance to state employees. So in July 2023, state employees began having access to this benefit. And since then, we've had more than 700 employees benefit from the program. And having our employees participate in that really created and launched the market for this insurance program in Vermont. Being a small state, oftentimes we're not the first place that private insurers would want to go to offer our products. Having a large employer wanting this program really launched that market. So then following this phase, in July 2024, The Hartford began offering this option to Vermont employers, including the very smallest of businesses who who had the option to opt into this program and offer this program to their employees. And then finally, last summer, July 2025, Vermont workers whose employers did not offer the insurance to their employees were able to individually purchase the insurance. And I would like to turn it over to Clark to just talk about the highlights of the FMLA program for our state employees. Question before

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: you turn it over. How many state employees, Barbara?

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: We have about 8,500 state employees. Okay.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Just I guess for your benefit, particularly Mr. Clark, kind of what's in my head, and I don't know about others, but I know we're going to want to hear how does this function, kind of how much it costs, whether people, whether you're seeing growth in the number of, you know, how many private employers are involved, how many private employees, what kind of absorption are we getting, and whether there are problem well, I guess you wouldn't say they were problematic. Notable exceptions to the policy that show up, so that there are gaps in coverage. And finally, whether there is some sort of complaint process or other process to hear grievances about this and whether you have what kind of grievances you've heard. I just want to kind of lay out, if you'll forgive me, let's Yep. What I think are the common sense questions that anybody would want. Okay. Yep.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: So, I think the how does it function from a state employee perspective, I think that's one of the first questions and that's how, that's what part of what's prepared to talk about. And I think he actually was able to dig up the policy, I think that was a question that the committee wanted. Yeah. I think he has that for you as well.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: My experience is I never know for sure what's covered until I read the poll, which takes a while.

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: Yeah. So for the record, I'm Clark Collins. I'm the director of benefits and wellness for the state of Vermont. And also I oversee the leave management unit. The state plan, so this is the you know as Commissioner Festigie mentioned, there were sort of three phases to the rollout of the FMLA. So I am going to speak on the actual first phase which was the offering to state employees. So the plan itself covers any kind of medical leave whether that's personal, whether that's someone in your family. It covers that for 60% of pay for up to six weeks. And that six weeks can be taken in sort of conjunction with personal leave, meaning you can use your sick time. However they can't be used at the same time, meaning they are not supplemental but they can be used in conjunction. What I mean by that is if someone is out on an extended medical leave, they can use their personal sick leave for a portion of that and also use the FMLA benefit for another portion. So what it does is it gives people that might be low in sick leave or frankly don't want to use their sick leave. This allows them to have a wage replacement while they're out on a medical leave. And the medical leave obviously can be runs a pretty good gamut of from everything from maternity to parental bonding to again if someone is ill or needs medical attention in your family or yourself. So that is generally speaking what the plan covers for state employees. The cost is roughly about 2,600,000.0 per year and this is on the state. So the employees themselves do not pay a premium, this is offered to employees. So this is employer paid, but the cost is about 2,600,000.0 per year.

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: Is that go ahead. I have lots of questions.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: What is the eligibility requirements for this benefit?

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: The base the base eligibility is that it is pretty much available to Allstate employees and not necessary not temporary employees but all full time benefits eligible employees. And you to have worked here for a year. So there's a twelve month waiting period when you first come on board. An employee has to be on board for at least a year before the benefit kicks in.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Okay. And what about part time employees? I'm sorry. Did I miss that?

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: No. So it's full time benefits eligible employees.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Okay. And some of our part time employees are benefits eligible. They have to work a certain number of hours to be eligible for benefits. Then would those employees be eligible for this as well? As long as they're eligible for programs like our health insurance, then they would be eligible for this. When setting up the plan, why did you choose to not allow individuals to use their pay supplementally? Why do they have to take it in two separate times? We have, from a practical setup, we allow supplemental pay for workers comp and it is incredibly difficult to track and maintain, like it was just incredibly difficult. So, we really wanted this program to be as simple as possible to implement. What qualifies for this insurance is in line with the federal FMLA and that's purposeful so that national employers who have Vermont employees could at least purchase into this program as well. But it's just a challenge to try to run two programs simultaneously from an administrative perspective. In our program, this is 100% administered by the Hartford. Our employees need to be not being paid that day to be eligible for this insurance. If the employee or for four hours, if the employee wants to take four hours, wants to work four hours and do the FMLA insurance for four hours in an eight hour day, that works like for a standard short term disability program. That's not usually how they work, it's usually a block leave and this can be used intermittently. Can an employee who's on short term disability also utilize these benefits as well?

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: I was just

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: going to say state employees we don't currently provide a short term disability plan. So it's you have your sick leave and then this can you know again can work in conjunction with it. In terms of phase two and three which is the which are the non state employee employers that are offering it, I would actually defer that to the Hartford I believe that is up to the and they can confirm this but I believe that's up to the employers themselves about how the how they design their plan.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Okay. And so I just want to add one more thing, Representative Bartley. With respect to that, just our benefits are kind of historically they're not what you would see in a normal employer because how our sick leave works and we've had this benefit for long time, it doesn't expire. You don't get it paid out when you leave, but there are employees with longer term employees with a lot of leave that they might have. We haven't That's one of them. Had a need as much for a short term disability program or a long term disability program. The Vermont Statement Association does offer a short disability program that plays for too. Combined with, you know, with Ashley it's pretty generously but we still have employees who get newer employees or employees that have, you know, lots of things happening at once run out of, you know, do run out of leave. So we were really happy to be able to offer this for employees, for those people that need it. It's not it's not it may not be as used as much for an employer that doesn't offer like a generous leave program already. But but right now, how it's it's not the traditional, you know, have your whatever is the combined time off and then you could go on a short term disability insurance and then a long term disability insurance which you see more often in the private sector. We're a little different we're quite a bit different than that. And alright. One sorry. Okay. Two questions. Does anybody else hear

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: that? Yeah. I think it

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Sorry, it's okay, I did hear that too.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I hear it online too.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Okay. Sorry, that's what I was concerned about. Had to live in Vermont, we

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: really live in Vermont,

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: was that Is that a mouse? Is that a mouse?

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Sorry. Another question would be, so for this specific leave program, the Hartford administers it, how many individuals administer like the HR portion of the state benefits? So like health insurance and those programs. Clark, go ahead.

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: So I currently have a team of, it's obviously myself and I have a team of four benefit specialists that handle the that handles sort of the day to day administration of the state benefits.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Sorry, one last question. When is your open enrollment for healthcare? Yeah. The month of November. Okay, thank you. Yes, go

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: ahead Gayle.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: How many full time employees do you have at that 8,500?

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: It's most of them are full time. Most of our employees are full time. Okay. That's another, the way the way we work with positions, so I don't know if you know this, but we have a position cap in state government. So if we want to have more positions, we actually have to come to the legislature. So two part time positions would be two positions, a one full time position. So it's not a really full time equivalent thing. So it's, unless you're doing a job share or unless you don't have the budget for a full time position, it most positions, if you have a position in state government, you want it to

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: be full time. But only the full time individual are eligible?

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: There are part time employees that are benefits eligible depending on how many hours a week they work. So I have people in a job share, they are

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: both eligible for benefits because they're working more than enough hours to be eligible. They each work twenty hours. I just arithmetically, you have 700 employees on it and you have, you're spending 2,600,000.0 that comes out to like $3,700 an employee. Is I that

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: think that well, I think part of it, what you have to remember is we were in the bidding process for this. It was launching a brand new thing and part of it wasn't just offered to save employees. It was to develop a technology to bring in the to bring in the employers as well as individuals. So, you know, moving forward based on our claims might we get a better rate potentially.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So the, I'm just trying to reflect this back to you. In other words, what your contract with The Hartford was more than just insuring a certain number of state employees, it's setting up a whole program. Yes. And so some of the money is paying for that. Yeah. But it's 2,600,000.0 for fiscal year twenty five-twenty six?

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: That's correct.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah. So we're fairly so it's not this is not given that the state is paying this, why do you think that only 700 out of or 10% of less than 10% of state employees are participating?

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Because they have we have other generous leave plans. So this benefit is a 60% wage replacement where if you take a sick day, you get a 100%. So it's generally more used when people are perhaps on bonding or if they

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: are out of sick time. So if

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: they have a longer term illness or a family member with a longer term illness when they have gone out of all of their sick leave.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Steve, as you just said, I think you just said in response to the question that sick leave accumulates, you don't get paid out when you leave, but it accumulates while you're there. Without limit.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: If you're a long term employee and never has any time off or sick, could have over a year of sick leave. So that might, that's why I think our utilization is likely less than you might see for an employer that really didn't have the generous payee program that we already have. But for those employees it is truly meaningful that take that because going with as anyone knows going back, any kind of paycheck is going to be, you know, they would have to make a decision to they come to work and not provide the care they want to for a family member or come back sooner on an illness that they may have, might be better for them to be not working. So I think that, you know, the fact that we have this extra program is, it's been extremely beneficial to the

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: employees who have had to use it. Elizabeth?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Thank you. So in the very beginning you said 700 state employees helped

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: to launch this program.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: So over time that's how many employees have claimed seven fifty seven employees have approved claims under the speciality Okay.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: They are all in.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Got it.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: All employees, once they have reached the federal standard for Family Medical Leave Act under that, then they would be eligible for this program as well.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: And so, seven fifty seven are over the course of the whole life of program? Yes.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay, thank you. Okay, I understand. I really didn't understand. So, this is something where you have to enroll. You're enrolled automatically. Right. It's just a question of

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: It's not an opt out for state employees like our life insurance program is an opt out. So when you come in, you're signed up for life insurance and if you decide, hey, I don't want to pay this premium, you can let us know and then we can opt you out of that program. On this program there's it doesn't cost the employees anything so I don't know why somebody would I guess it's a lot of people I doubt they could, but I don't know why they would.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Right. So everybody's in, all 8,500 are in, but only seven fifty seven claims have been made over the last three years. Got it. How many?

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Two and three. Seven fifty seven. How many years? Three. July '20

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: what? '2. '22?

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: No. '23.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Right. '23. Yep. That is three years.

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: So it'd be, yeah, it'd be three years and three months.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: Yeah. I had a question about the part time employees qualifying. Yeah. You had then said that you had some employees at two because they were twenty hours a week. Mhmm. So does that mean point five to 50 is qualified for?

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Point five. Above. Last five employees, yeah. Is it point five? I don't know if it's at fifteen, if it's twenty hours. I'm not sure what the threshold is for if it's twenty hours. For some reason, think it might be a little lower than that, but but I'm assuming you know.

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: I I yeah. That's correct. It's it's point five Feet's are eligible. Yeah.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: And and above, it's not anything below?

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: Correct.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: Thank you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: And the definition of illness is the same as what? I mean, what's it

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: As tied the federal Family Medical Gene Act, the same definitions.

[Clark Collins (Director of Benefits & Wellness; Leave Management Unit, State of Vermont)]: And also the Vermont State FLA too as well.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Great. Other questions of either Clar or Beth? While they're here, members of the committee, this is your shot, not that we can't have them back, but

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Yeah, and we can stay on for, I don't want to speak for Clark, but I can stay on for both our phones and all the other witnesses go.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: There is even a chair. Alright, thank you, Beth. And thank you, Clark. Appreciate it a lot. Kim Ruddin, I think is Kimberly, Kim, however.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Yes, good morning.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Good morning Kim, welcome to our committee. You want to introduce yourself, tell us what you're doing, what your position is, and tell us, give us your testimony.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Yeah, first I'd like to say good morning, Chair Mihaly, Vice Chair Bartley, and all the members of the committee. Thank you so much for the opportunity to be here today. I'm Kim Rutland, I lead the absence management program

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Hartford,

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: where I oversee paid family and medical leave and disability programs nationwide. I'd like to begin by thanking the Departments of Financial Regulation and Human Resources leadership and the dedicated state staff who've worked over the past several years to build and expand a paid leave program that reflects Vermont's values and delivers meaningful support to working families. The Hartford was honored to be selected as the insurance partner for Vermont's family and medical leave insurance program in 2022. Since then, we've worked closely with the state on a thoughtful phased rollout beginning with the state employees in July 2023, expanding to employers in July 2024, and then extending access to individual workers and self employed individuals through the individual purchasing program in July 2025. That approach has allowed the program to grow deliberately with each phase informing the next. Phase one focused entirely on the state of Vermont employees continues to serve as the foundation of the program. From 07/01/2023 through the March 2026, The Hartford has paid seven fifty seven FMLA claims that are split almost evenly between medical and family leave reasons, representing more than $2,400,000 in benefit payments. We've also seen meaningful utilization trends. About half of the claimants use the full six week benefit. The average leave duration was twenty three workdays and 45% of leaves were taken to bond with a new child. Utilization has increased by nearly 60% since the program launched, reflecting Kim,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: hold on. Is it important? I'm lagging here. No, I'm lowering. Slow down for a minute. Okay, so the average was twenty three workdays, the average claim, And you were just saying some percent, x percent, are leave taken to bond with a child? 45. 4645%,

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: yes, they were taken for bonding.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. Go ahead. I just got behind.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Sure. No. That's okay. I'll slow down. Utilization has increased by about 60% since the program launched, which is reflecting growing awareness and confidence in the benefit among state employees. Phase two then expanded the program to the employer market. So since quoting began in February 2024, The Hartford has provided two eighty three quotes or renewals to employers with employees working in Vermont and about 28% of those chose to purchase coverage. While overall growth has been gradual, this is consistent with what we typically see as employers evaluate a new benefit and integrate it into their existing offerings. Participating employers have been predominantly small businesses, largely in the two to 50 employee range, and about 95% have elected to offer the benefit on a non contributory basis, meaning that the employer pays the full premium. To date, the employer program has paid nearly 3 quarters of $1,000,000 in benefits, representing more than thirty five thousand hours of leave. From a geographic perspective, Chittenden County leads the state accounting for roughly one third of sold employer policies. Phase three, it introduced the individual purchasing program with the first enrollment held in May 2025. During that period, The Hartford issued two ninety one quotes, including both traditional employees and to self employed individuals. Ultimately, 67 individuals purchased coverage, 65 are currently enrolled, and since January 1, the program has paid 22 claims. I'm sorry, there a question?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Three, sorry. 23 claims, okay.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Yes, 22 claims totaling nearly $65,000 in benefits, and nearly three quarters of those claims were for bonding with a new child. As we look ahead to the twenty twenty six open enrollment beginning May 1, we expect continued gradual growth as awareness of the program increases. At its core, paid leave is about people. It allows employees to balance the work with family and health needs, reduce financial stress during life's most critical moments, and supports retention and workforce stability, particularly for small employers. The Hartford is very proud to support Vermont in delivering this program, and we remain committed to our partnership with the state as access to these benefits continues to expand. I'd just like to thank you for your time, and I'm happy to answer any questions that you have.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I know there are going

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: to be questions, and we're gonna start with our vice chair. Thank you. So I work in human resources, and I handle lead for about 1,000 employees. How many individuals do you have on your team that deal specifically with Vermont employees?

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: I'm going to have to get back to you with that number. I don't have that exact number in front of me at the moment.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Okay, and if someone goes on leave and Actually, never mind, I answered my question.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Okay.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Other questions? Yes, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Kim, I wonder whether, so you have all of, and I haven't had enough coffee today to do the math myself. But I wonder whether you have broken out data of how much has been specifically paid out for how much has been paid out, not how many, for bonding with a new child?

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: For bonding with a new child, let me see here, because I've got the total number for the individual phase, for phase three, is that your question? Or just overall in the program?

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Overall, yeah.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: I would have to go back and get that breakdown for you, but I'm happy to provide that as a follow-up.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Would really love to see

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I think the answer is quite a bit.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I think that's right.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Yeah. We can break it down by the differences between the leave reasons, so I'll be happy to do that.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Can you give us a, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: It's pretty easy to do, I

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: can do it. Don't worry about it. I just wonder whether you've had it easily accessible. I know. Kim,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: can you give us an idea of price? In other words, with phase two, how do you price it with an employer? Is it per employee? And if so, how much? How is it priced? And then for phase three, what's the cost if someone wants to buy it?

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Yeah, for phase two, employers work with their benefit brokers in The Hartford to select from a number of plan design options. These are different ways that they can allow them to best support the needs for their employees and their business, and the cost varies. Some of the factors will include the number of employees on payroll, the salaries of the individual being covered, the number of weeks they choose to offer for leave, and the percentage of wage replacement, so there's a number of factors that can affect the pricing.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Got it. And for individuals, how does it work, and what's the cost?

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Yeah, it's similar. So, there is just an overarching plan design for the individuals, but factors like the salary, you know, those kind of things are going to pay into that, but for reference, a plan similar to the Vermont state employee model, which is a six week duration for medical and family leave, averages about 5 to $10 a week per employee.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: For an individual? Per page three?

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: You know, that's just a ballpark, you know, in terms of like if we look at what it is for the state, it wouldn't be exactly the same for individuals, But just to give you kind of some reference, it's a pretty, you know, low cost in terms of maybe 5 to $10 a week on average.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So if it's $10 a week, that's like $500 a year, kind of in that range. So, free to Yeah. Yes, go ahead.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: I'm just curious about the comparative situation of ensuring Vermonters versus others. Is there anything sort of uncharacteristic or something that you would say that Vermont really, like, we take more leave for caring for elders or, you know, or is it our demographics kind of help to determine, I'm sure, some of the how we compare to other states. And I'm just curious about what your stats say on that.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Yeah, The Hartford has extensive experience administering paid leave for employers all over the country, and that includes states like Connecticut, New York, Massachusetts. We offer private plans and or administer self funded plans in all states, but it's really, it's interesting when you look across the country, most of the experience is very similar. See a lot of leave for employees for their own medical conditions, for those baby bonding type events where they're welcoming a new child into their home, and family caregiving. I wouldn't say that I've seen anything that stands out. There's nothing concerning for sure about Vermont's experience. It's in line with what we would expect, employees' own health conditions, taking them away from work, and then that need to especially bond with the baby or care with a family member.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Yes. So it's $2,600,000

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: We're Is that actually checking on that number, sorry. But it's close. That was the number for this last fiscal year, for the package of services that Hartford offers the state, which included insuring individuals as well as other functions to make the whole program work. And that's fiscally? Yes.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: And it was 2,400,000.0 used? So the claims have been, yeah, the claims over that time period have been 2,400,000. Is that any different than it was last year? So we're gonna dig in to provide some more details on the numbers for you, since you're asking about that, we'll get that information for you, so you can take a look.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: That would be great, this committee is sort of satiable.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Yeah, I've been texting the clerk actually about that.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So I just want to go over, I think you answered this question. So you have relationships with about how many states that are similar to the state of Vermont, I mean, excuse me. You relationships like your contractual relationship with us. With how many other states?

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Vermont is actually the only one where we are administering on behalf of the state. So in the other states that have paid family medical leave programs, we offer private plan administrations, but we are not the state administrator.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: You're not the state the states themselves do it?

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: They do.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Uh-huh. That's interesting. Alright, so this is a one off for you guys.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: Yeah, and we're very committed to paid family and medical leave. We see the benefits that it brings employees, so we wanted to take part in the program with Vermont. It's a really unique approach in that, you you've got the state one or the state employees in phase one, the employers that are, you know, just not in the state print plan in phase two, most of those actually pay the full premium for the coverage for their employees and then for the individuals, so we just really wanted to be a part of that because it is part of the way that we can expand, you know, the access to paid family leave in the state.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Great. You have a question? So where does

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: that $10 go from?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: The 5 to $10 is the average price for a three, for individuals. In other words, if you alone, not because you're employed, wanted to have a plan, you could buy it from Hartford, and depending on how much you make and how long you want it to cover, you know, weeks, but a plan similar to the state plan, Kim testified, would be about $5 to $10 a week.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: That's right.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: For a sort of figure of fifty weeks, $500, something like that. Questions of Kim? I see, Tom, you're thinking. He's thinking how it on. I'm absorbing. He's

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: absorbing. Can I

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: say to him? Yes, go ahead.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Yeah, and

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I think that these conversations are important, just in context, so there'll be plenty of time to,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: you know,

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: discuss later on in another.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah, get people back.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Get people back so that they can work on things.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Beth, what is it? Oh, just, we paid in fiscal year twenty five, 2,100,000.0 to that

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: group. Okay. That was $2,100,000 to the Hartford for administration? For the whole program,

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: for whole

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: For the whole program, that would include the claim made and, well, they pay the claims made.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Our employees still pay the benefits to the employees. Actually pay a little extra so they file the taxes as well. They do that as well. And then, yeah, for soup to nuts. Basically, when the employee says, I wanna explore participating in this, we let them call Hartford and they do all the paperwork and they look at their, they make sure that their condition is eligible for the benefit. So, they need a lot of, they're gonna need medical documentation, so they have to provide that and then our employees aren't seeing that which is actually

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. Any other questions? Kim, thank you so much for taking time to go outside. Know you're a busy person.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: You very much.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Take care. Okay. So our last witness is Ratchet Elias, if I'm saying that right. Yes, you are. Mr. Chair? Yes.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: If time allows, I wonder if you would do something a little unorthodox and allow me to make a, not to testify, but just share a couple things. I'm sure that time will allow. Thank you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Right.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: On this topic.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Well, I'm going to keep you fine tonight. Oh, I'll be short. But I know that common sense would limit it. Anyway, I mean we have to

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Thank you all for inviting me to speak with you today about Vermonters access to paid family and medical needs. And I'll just preface my testimony to say that I think we're all in agreement about the goals here and what I'm going to focus on is whether the current path is a path to achieve those goals. My name is Fretchen Elias, and I represent the Vermont Paid Coalition. We're a group of more than 80 businesses, organizations, and everyday Vermonters who believe that nobody should have to choose between making a living and caring for themselves or a loved one. The evidence is clear. Universal access to paid family and medical leave benefits everyone. Families who have access to paid leave are healthier, more economically secure, and less likely to require taxpayer funded public assistance resources. Access to paid leave is good for the economy, too. It increases labor force participation among new parents, people with chronic illnesses and caregivers for older Vermont older adults. And for these reasons, 14 states have already passed a universal paid leave program, including nearly every one of Vermont's neighbors. And the Vermonters themselves want paid leave. Around 80% of Vermonters support the idea of a universal state administered paid leave program. And we've come close to making that happen several times, and the governor has vetoed it, opting instead for the voluntary coverage approach that the state implemented beginning in 2023. As a result of that, state employees now have access to a partial paid leave benefit. And what I again want to address today is how this voluntary approach is working, particularly for the remainder of Vermont's workers. What does this access to the Hartford options mean for them? And in theory, it means that their employers could choose to provide this benefit by contracting directly from the Hartford, as you heard. And this option became available to employers in 2024, And as you heard from Kim, individual Vermonters who don't have a paid leave benefit through their employer can now choose to buy this benefit again directly from The Hartford. And this option became available in 2025. My understanding is that it was available as a month long enrollment period in May, I guess prior to it taking effect in July, because she referenced July. But there's a month every year where individuals have the ability to enroll. So, what we're seeing, as expected, is that the voluntary approach to partial paid leave has had limited impact on Vermonters' access to paid leave. My numbers in the testimony I submitted were that only 63 of Vermont's roughly 17,000 private sector employers have actually chosen to offer paid leave. And I think if I did my math correctly, two eighty three quotes, because this was from last fall, but two eighty three quotes and 28% choosing to purchase, that gets us up to 78 private sector employers, again, out of 17,000. That represents, using the number 63, that represents just 1,800 additional employees covered, which is less than a fraction, it's a fraction of a percent of the private sector workforce. Let me interrupt, I'm just trying to get Sorry, if I'm reading too

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: fast No, it's okay. You said that we have about 17,000 employers. Yes. Of one sort, I mean.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Yeah. In the private sector.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: In the private sector, it could be does that include, in your mind, generally self employed individuals?

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: No, because again, they are in a different category. Yeah, so it's entities,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: corporate entities or nonprofit It could be two people, but if it's a corporation, yeah, alright.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Not ten ninety nine, right.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: And with nearly 70% of the workforce as a whole lacking access, this rate of adding access is racial in terms of actually doing the job of excluding it to ask us. And to your point, Chair, the same is true for individual enrollment. And here, my numbers are the same as what Kim said, because there's only actually one month per year where individuals can purchase the plan. So there's been one month of that so far, and there'll be another month in 2026. And 67 individual Vermonters have purchased this individual version of the benefit from The Hartford. And we don't have as good numbers as of how many self employed or contractual workers there are, but it could be up to 100,000. 25,000 to 35,000 self employed versus Vermont, and another 65,000 or so businesses with no employees, so sole proprietorships, as I understand. So in this case of individual enrollment with the one month period each year, Recently, someone from Hartford, Vermont, Karen Mowry, shared her experience with trying to purchase individual benefit with a letter to the Valley News. And I'm going to read an excerpt from that. A trip to the ER this past summer because my husband wasn't feeling well turned into immediate surgery as a result of a cancer diagnosis. Our family soon learned about the gaps in Vermont's paid coverage that caused many families to scramble to patch together care and financial resources. I remember when I heard on the news that there was a paid leave program in Vermont. I immediately thought of a coworker of mine who had spent the last couple of years balancing work, PTO, and unpaid FMLA while caring for her husband. I thought that would be a great resource for her, never thinking that I would be in the same boat. I was told that I could sign up as an individual under Vermont's voluntary plan on The Hartford's website, but what I discovered was that if I had wanted this coverage, I had to have signed up in May. It was now August. So guess what? I'm not covered and out of luck until next year. The Hartford's rep couldn't even tell me what the premium might be if I did sign up because I wasn't eligible at the time. Another key difference between the voluntary approach taken by Vermont and the comprehensive program offered by 14 other states is that in Vermont, the benefit is offered, because it's offered as a commercial insurance product that employers purchase on the private market, Each employer negotiates directly with The Hartford to purchase a customized product for themselves, which means they set the eligibility terms and the parameters. And so that means a specific benefit provided can look very different from employer to employer. An employer can require a waiting period of six months or more before an employee becomes eligible. They can require a benefit elimination period, which acts like a deductible, a period of time after the qualifying event during which the employee has to take unpaid leave before they can access paid leave. They can choose to offer it as an optional benefit so that their full employees can opt in or decline. They can choose to offer only bonding leave and not caregiving for sick or dying loved ones. They can choose whether or not the benefit qualifies for job protection under PFLA or FMLA. And they can choose whether it can be combined with other benefits, as we were talking about before, to supplement the 60% and get the wage replacement higher. And so what this often means, as you can imagine, is that individual employers negotiate a benefit package that's inadequate for their employees' financial needs and therefore inaccessible to those who need it most. So this means that practically speaking, paid leave may still in fact be inaccessible, even for the small fraction of the private sector workforce in Vermont whose employers now provide a version of the Harvard's plan. And this trend is already evident in responses to a recent survey of over 700 Vermont workers that was conducted in the fall by medical studies at UBM's Larner College of Medicine. I'm gonna read a few of those survey responses. FMLI, the abbreviation for this plan, only covers a percentage of salary and could not be combined with FMLA backed PTO to bring wages up to 100%. So it was functionally useless for our family when we had a child in early twenty twenty four. I instead burned my entire PTO leave bank and have limited time off since. I explored this for maternity leave and I was deeply disappointed. It pays you 60% of your income and you can't combine it with your paid time off, unless so you can survive off of 60% of your income, it's useless. I could have taken paid leave, but cannot afford it. It only pays out 60% of my income. So I had to take my vacation time and sick leave instead. FMLA is inadequate. The process is convoluted and does not pay you more than 60% of your pay. This is critically detrimental to folks who cannot afford to lose almost a third of their pay. It was incredibly stressful managing finances and leave to support my maternity leave, even with the FMLA benefit, as it doesn't fully cover the salary you miss. We had to, and this is the last one, we had to significantly dip into savings and acquired new credit card debt to fund my leave and my husband's six week leave. He received three weeks of pay and took three weeks unpaid, but we couldn't afford for him to take more time off. I had a traumatic birth and my son had a birth injury. It was challenging for him to have to go back to work so soon. I'm pregnant again and expecting in February. I anticipate we'll need to take funds out of our retirement and savings accounts to fund the unpaid part of my leave, and we're struggling to figure out how we'll pay for our son's childcare. So what this suggests is that two years after adopting a voluntary approach, the data available suggests that fewer than 2,000 of Vermont's non state workers now have better access to a paid leave and benefit. And even those who do have this benefit may not have one that meets their needs. And what's more than low enrollment rates associated with voluntary approaches like these can't generate a large enough pool for the system to be affordable in the long term. A universal program in which all employers participate creates an equitable sharing of resources among businesses of all sizes. And I also wanted to point out that we do have lessons from New Hampshire. I said that nearly all of our neighbors provide a universal state administered program. New Hampshire is the only one that does not. They took a similar approach to Vermont, so voluntary purchase approach. They contracted with a different private insurer, MetLife, to provide a partial benefit to New Hampshire state employees. And they took a little different rollout. They offered it in starting in twenty twenty twenty three. They offered all three phases at the same time. So the New Hampshire state employees, the private employers, and the individuals could all purchase the benefit from MetLife starting at the same time, which means we have more data on the private sector uptake because it's been around longer. And their option for individuals is actually a little more flexible than Vermont's. They allow a two month open enrollment period every year instead of just one. But even so, after about three years, less than 3% of the New Hampshire workforce has access to the benefit through MetLife, and roughly half of those workers are New Hampshire state employees. And only about 8,500 private sector workers have access through the MetLife benefit. And that's out of a total workforce of roughly 700,000. And the New Hampshire data also shows that a voluntary benefit option won't move the needle on equity. Currently, in Vermont, and this is true nationwide, the workers most likely to need paid leave are the ones least likely to have it: low income workers, women, the self employed contractual workers. And if you look at the data after three years of offering a voluntary benefit in New Hampshire, you'll see that this trend is still true in New Hampshire. The workers that are most likely to have a paid leave benefit there are those in the highest income bracket with postgraduate degrees and working for the large employers, I. E. The ones that probably have a self insure program. So just in conclusion, the state's experiment with a voluntary leave benefit confirms what we already know, that a voluntary approach doesn't and won't meet the needs of Vermonters. And that's why 14 states and the District Of Columbia have opted for a universal program. The fourteenth state was Virginia just a few months ago, past one. And we know from their success, because some of these have been around for a long time, that universal paid leave is a cost effective way to ensure financial stability for workers, improve health outcomes for families, and help small businesses attract and retain employees. And the Vermont Paid Leave Coalition will continue to advocate for a comprehensive paid leave, family leave, and medical leave program. Only a universal publicly administered program will expand access to all Vermonters, especially those who need this benefit most, put Vermont small businesses on an even playing field with big companies, and make Vermont attractive for young people starting again. Thank you. Questions for Gretchen?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yes?

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: I was just thinking, comparing it to the other states, is it at all possible for Vermont to combine with another state, or it has to be state by state?

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Don't, I would have to

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Like a regional I'm state,

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: not aware of other because there are so tiny states doing that right now, but

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I mean, are certainly policy discussions at some point, but it's interesting.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Could we ask the Hartford whether they know? Oh,

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: yeah. Do

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Kim. Kim, are you still on?

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Yes, I'm here.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: Go ahead and ask Kim.

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: I just had a question if The Hartford could put Vermont with another state and do more of a regional plan rather than just Vermont.

[Kim Rutland (The Hartford, Absence Management Program)]: I think we would defer to the state for how you wanted to handle the program, and if you wanted to approach a design or a partnership, we're open to that discussion.

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: That's great.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: In these other states, 14 states, does the state usually, is it a completely state plan or do they operate through a private insurer?

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: It's either, it's a mix. Some of them have a completely state administered plan and some of them do have a private insurance company's involvement, But in all 14 states, it's a benefit that all employers participate in. I was

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I wonder, you may not know this or have any thoughts about it, but I was actually a little surprised about the 5 to $10 number. It seemed low to me, in other words. So much insurance is so expensive if you're talking 5 to $10 a week, or let's say $2.50 to $500 a year for a major insurance product, that's pretty inexpensive. Do you have any thoughts as to why the uptake is so low? I agree with you, it's very low.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: I guess I had a, I was similarly surprised, but for a different reason, because I believe the universal program that we had put forth to the legislature a couple years ago, the estimation was that it was about between two

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: dollars and $3 a week, so it's even lower than this.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: So I was like, oh, that's

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: You mean in other words, the cost to whoever was administering it?

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: The premium. The premium, if it was

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: not paid by the state.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: So I guess my reaction was that 5 to 10 sounds higher, but I would want to go back and look at others, and I don't know how. Obviously inflation in the past couple of years might have affected that.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Do you think the low uptake, is just a result of people don't want to pay the money, don't know about the program?

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: I think self employed and sole proprietorships are scraping by. They're looking very closely at every cost. Probably, I think they would need even lower premiums than the five to 10 is my guess.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: And are most of the 14 states that have the universal insurance paid leave, is it at no cost to everybody, or they pay sort of

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: I think it's a mix, and I do have that data, I can definitely provide a breakdown.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I think what would be helpful for the committee, I've seen it, but it would be helpful, I think, to get a chart to look at, if you'd like, the different states and the data.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: That would be very helpful. My apologies. I do have that and I should have submitted that along with my testimony.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So some of them have the equivalent of a copay and others don't?

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: Yeah, it's definitely a mix. I think I would say that most of them have a wage replacement rate that's higher than 60%. So that's another factor that's coming up, but 60% doesn't cover the costs of taking leave. So what happens if you offer a wage replacement rate at 60%, especially if you don't allow it to be stacked with others, then the employee doesn't feel like they're financially able to take it. So in the case of the self employed worker, that might be a reason. And I do know that most of the states with universal programs offer a higher wage replacement rate.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Thank you.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: And is that wage being able to stack multiple benefits on top, is that just an employer decision? Like if my employer decided to go with this program

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: It is their decision.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: He say, feel free to use your sick time one day a week while you're out, and it will try to balance it out a bit.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: That's one of the many things that the employer gets to decide on this. So again, in most of the states with the universal program, they have more standardized definitions of what the benefits are.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Thank you. Any other questions? Yes. Thank you very much.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Joan's gonna leave for a minute.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yes. Thank you. Thank you.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I just wanted to, for the new members of the committee and the public, to share my experience. So I guess I'm witness with lived experienceRef Krasnow. So when I was 12, my father, the late Vermont state representative, Jerry Krasnow, was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer. During the fifteen months of his illness, my mom and my older sister and brother put their lives on hold to care for him and his medical and physical needs. My mom took an unpaid leave of absence from her job, my sister quit her job, and my brother took a leave from graduate school. There was no other option. We rallied together as families do, but at a great expense financially and emotionally for us all. After my father died, it was just me and my mom. And as a teen, I promised her I would always take care of her the way she took care of my dad and me. When she got sick with stage four ovarian cancer, I found myself needing to make those same decisions my brother and sister had made twenty years earlier. I took on caretaking responsibilities and struggled to balance my career and personal ambitions with her health needs. I do recognize my privilege that I was able to make that choice, and I recognize that so many Vermonters cannot. My siblings and my peers and I are considered the sandwich generation, defined as those who have caretaker responsibilities for their parents and their children. In order to care for both generations, my generation is forced to make difficult choices between saving for their own retirement, funding education or living expenses for their children, or paying for the health care and caretaking needs of aging parents. We are talking about parents with cancer, physical disabilities, and dementia. We are talking about the choices of paying for an in home caregiver for a parent with Alzheimer's or paying for a child to attend college. This is not sustainable financially or emotionally. And I believe that we would fix this with an equitable paid leave. I started my first campaign for legislature when my mom was in the last few months of her life. I couldn't bear the thought of spending any time away from her, and I worried constantly how she would be cared for. But my mom knew how important this was to me, and she believed that I would win and be able to be here with you all. She did not want me putting my life on hold anymore and wanted me to be here to be a voice for those who struggle. So I'm here today, and I continue to bring Gayleaf to the conversation because I think that we need to have an equitable paid leave for everyone. And I will continue to discuss that and talk about that in this building until I believe that we reach that for all Vermonters.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Paid leave, as I remember, just for information, paid leave was not Paid leave was proposed, vetoed, and almost overridden, but not quite as one vote.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, and we worked on it for six weeks in this committee, at least my first session. It was a lot of hard table time.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: I think that was the year between painting and childcare.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Right, we had a lot of choices. It's hard. Right.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Alright, I think what we should do now is take a break, and then we are going to take up, go back to S230. Sophie will be here at 10:50. So we'll reconvene, why don't we try to be here at 10:45, yes? What did you mean by almost vetoed? It was vetoed and then almost overridden. Okay. We're gonna reconvene at 10:50.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: 10:50?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Five-zero. Oh, ah! Okay, great. Try to be here

[Beth Fastiggi (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Human Resources)]: a little Long, bit wait.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah, long.

[Gretchen Elias (Vermont Paid Leave Coalition)]: I'm going

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: back