Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Welcome everyone back to the House Committee on General and Housing. It is still Friday, 04/10/2026, and we're about to start s 03/28. Before we do, just some committee committee business. We're at a period of time, I don't know how long it will last, where the number of bills that we have is not as pressing as it usually is. We have three Senate bills, one of which we just voted out. One of the things that I've asked our committee assistants to consider are two possible field trips. One would be to Huntington Homes, and one would be to actually visit a manufactured home park, for example, one that happens to be a limited equity co op, possibly, and rather large and possibly where a member of the committee lives. But the other that I'd like you to think about is, this is also an opportunity to do what we did in the beginning of the session, which is to hold hearings on subjects of importance. If you have ideas, think about them and talk to them. So, our next item, it's an S-three 28 item, which is housing, this housing bill that came around with the Senate, which we've been working on for a considerable time, and our witness, Lauren Dibbert, is Deputy Secretary of State for the Secretary of State's office. Lauren, come in. I don't think you've been

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: here, have you? You know what?

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I mean, in this committee.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: No, I have not. For the record, my name is Lauren Herbert. I'm the Deputy Secretary of State, and it is a pleasure to be here.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Well, we will introduce ourselves to you. Great.

[Rep. Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: Debbie? I'm Debbie Dolgin, I represent St. John's Great Concord and Kirby.

[Rep. Thomas "Tom" Charlton (Member)]: I'm Tom Charlton, Athens Chester, Graduate.

[Rep. Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Ashley Bartley, I represent Paratax in Georgia.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: And I'm Marc Mihaly, and I represent Callis and Plainfield at Marshfield.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Hello, Emilie Krasnow, South Burlington.

[Multiple committee members (various)]: Saudia LaMont, Royal Washington.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Rep. Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Hi, I'm Elizabeth Burrows, and I represent Heartland, West Windsor and Windsor, collectively Windsor one. Hello, I'm Mary E. Howard and I represent Rutland City District 6. Welcome. Hello.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: Chittenden 20, Colchester.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: Yes, I have been in this committee in this space. I spent quite a bit of time in house general previously, and in fact, I just wanna say a huge thank you to your committee assistant, because I was running up the stairs, because the last time I was on fifth committee, it was upstairs, so I knew where I was going, and I was all set, and I was running, so thank you very much. And the other thing is that I always like to see what art is in the committee when I I come love all three pieces of your art very much, and what a wonderful way to be grounded in your work. Thank you for that. So thank you very much for the opportunity to testify on 03/08. 03/28, yes, the numbers all get jumbled for me. And I understand the ask of this committee or the ask that's proposed before this committee. Hi.

[Multiple committee members (various)]: Hi. This is Leonora Dodge.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yes. We introduced ourselves, yes. Thank you. And

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: I want to say first and foremost, the Secretary of State has many areas of jurisdiction. We really pride ourselves on providing as much information to the public as possible when we can on our subject matter expertise, I know you probably heard from business services a little bit more, but our areas of expertise, just for those of you who aren't as familiar with our office, are the Office of Professional Regulation. We regulate 53 professions, businesses, and individuals across a wide variety of professions. We obviously house the elections division. We oversee state and federal elections with the help obviously of our candidates. We have the records and archives administration, which is a wonderful place to visit if you ever need to play a field trip. It may not be to very this committee, but wonderful place to go. And then we have business services. And we also have a municipal division that answers questions primarily from the public about open meeting law, public records, municipal law. We are sort of a space where the public can go outside of the cities and towns or the town courts. We do get questions about common interest communities. Interestingly, and I know you've heard this before, this area of the law is very complicated. It is very location specific and community specific. It is also an area of law that really doesn't have government involved. It is an agreement between private individuals just by nature and a contract between those individuals essentially. So we do receive questions frequently about what type of business should be registered on behalf of the common interest community. We really can't answer questions about this topic at all. Because the area of law is so complicated, it's so community specific that when questions come to us, we point people to the law. And as I understand the ask of this amendment is that we would have information on our website about the law. And we can agree to do that. We are fairly I spoke with Rep Krasnow about this. I have to be very careful and we have to be very careful about what our office takes on as a responsibility. Certainly we can't take on responsibilities without funding and staff if it's a big responsibility, because we're very lean and mean. We really want to provide excellent customer service. We pride ourselves. We are so mean. But we do try to use our resources judiciously. And we try to make sure that we can deliver on what we've promised. And if you ever have a constituent who doesn't find that to be true, please send them my way. I think we deliver on excellent customer service in all of our divisions, at least we strive to. That being said, I do think that we can provide publicly available information around this topic. I want to be really careful about what we promise we can do. So in the testimony that I hope you all have, we have a draft of what we would anticipate we'd be able to put on our website. I recognize this may not meet the full needs of what people are looking for, but this is what I know we can provide without greatly expanding our involvement in this area. It would be basically pointing people to the law and making sure that people understand how to find information, and then recommending to people that they should seek outside experts, and that we won't be able to answer the questions. So this would be something that would be on our website. I don't know exactly where on our website it would be. And I did provide some modified language to the amendment as I currently understand it. And it's on the second page of my testimony, essentially taking out create and maintain a free website. And this is because I've spent years trying to take out paper application out of statutes because I think we have an idea of how we want to deliver information at one time. We put it into the statute and the way that we deliver information changes all the time. So I wouldn't be opposed to if you wanted to say public information, but information to the public, I think, meets that. But if this passes, what we would do is put this on our website, because that's how we interface with the public right now. And we would be able to give information about the government statutes and law. Well,

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I will start by saying thank you so much. I wore my voter priorities today. As the, I don't know how others feel, but as the lead sponsor and initiator of this, I am very comfortable. I've forwarded your language changes to our legislative council, so that should reflect in our new draft. I'm very comfortable it checks the boxes of intent. When you start with a bill, it's often a wish list of what you'd like to see in the world and the realities are here. And I'm just really grateful that your office has even been willing to post this. And I think for our constituents, it gives us a place that we can point to and very appreciative again of your feedback. And I'm very comfortable and happy with the language that you proposed and that's how I feel about it. So I appreciate it. Thank you very It's my pleasure.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: And this is a question that we received too. We received questions about uninterested communities and this is how we are answering them now. So this is not a significant change in our practice. It's just making it more public on That's the all I wanted. And so that we could constituents know that

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: a place to read about it. And I think I had this conversation with you also about if there are changes, right? Like, so for instance, there's a study going on with legislative council be reviewing some different HOA, you know, and if need happen to make a change in a following biennium that you would also have the capacity to keep it updated. Yeah. It won't be very I mean, I can't remember. I don't have off the top of my head the last time we've changed the HOA rules with the clothes hanger thing and the other things, but it's very few and far between. But that was just so it stays current.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: Yeah, the proposed language that we have would encompass every change that, I mean, you would change it in these sections of the statute. So it would all be in there free. Whether or not we would have the knowledge that A, something was changing and B, the capacity to provide information about that on this site, I don't know. I'll forever just email over the changes for my technology. No, that's perfect. Thank you. I know that the Secretary of State has always had a very strong tradition of wanting to provide information to people so that they can help themselves. And so if there's a significant change, we would want people to know about it. It's just, I can tell you, even in the subject matters that we are very much responsible for, there are bills that pass that we don't know are happening. We're doing changes. So I don't want to promise that we will track this issue, but we'll do our level best and we are committed to providing.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Thank you. And I had wonderful experiences with your office. I know that I appreciate your honesty about not wanting to overpromise and under deliver. So I have the utmost confidence that this will be what we need. Thank you.

[Multiple committee members (various)]: Elizabeth? May I make a suggestion? Yes. I am a person who has never lived in a homeowner, I don't know, a life association. I didn't know before this session that they were also called common interest communities. Common interest communities. And so, if you could, with your language, write just it for me. Not me, but people who don't have any idea what you're talking about. Or that an HOA is in statute a common interest community, because I think people who only know the acronym HOA may also not know that that's action. So they may get to the link and see a common interest community and be like,

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: what? I think that's a great recommendation. And this language is not set in stone, this language is

[Multiple committee members (various)]: thrown That's why

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: I'm saying that. Yeah, no, but yes, I think as we prepare this, we can definitely add a definition of a homeowner association and a common interest community and say that they are the same and governed by these statutes.

[Multiple committee members (various)]: If you're looking for that, then here's the tip. Yes, is a good teaser.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I agree with you. Even me, I've lived in HOA for twenty one years and when I first worked on this bill with Cameron and he called it that, I was like, what's that?

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: Yeah, It adds a level of confusion and complexity that we can help Thank you. Other

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: questions or more?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I was just going to say along the same lines, just a suggestion of maybe just stating more explicitly, if you find a conflict between your bylaws and the laws,

[Multiple committee members (various)]: again consult an attorney because

[Unidentified Committee Member]: it's more complex than this supersedes that. There's no easy, but I think that's where people are gonna find, that's

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: what's gonna

[Unidentified Committee Member]: prompt people to look things up most. So I think just being really explicit about.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: Yeah, we can modify that last paragraph. Yep, does that make sense?

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, so I guess the next steps will Oh, there Marc, great. The next step will be, I have sent your language to Cameron. And then once I get that from him, I will send it to you to double check it's exactly what your language looks like in his writing. And then when we see our next draft of the bill, it will have that reflected in there and then the committee will review it. Yeah, I guess

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I'm probably the next comfortable in the sense that this says governing statutes. I think that it's important that the governing statutes include relevant state statutes. The reason is, I think, now to some extent, and certainly when we get through with it, the subject over the next year or two, one of the major sources of inquiry would be, well, our HOA has got to say this. It's badly built under state law. In other words, if someone contacts your office and says, well, we'd be discriminated against people of color our is that okay? In other words, state law trumps whatever's in those documents, state law trumps it. And so I think a lot of people who call or who will be looking to your website, they know what's in their documents. What they don't know is what state law requires. That's why I think your website, you don't have to give legal advice, but letting them know where they can see what's in state law.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: Yes, that's why we have this proposal, to make sure that everyone can find the law. I think that's the hardest thing for folks that contact us, and I'm sure your constituents too, laws are not written to be accessible and laws are not easy to And to Representative Burrows' point, there's a lot of things, even I as an attorney that have worked for the state for a very long time, I have struggled finding the area of the statutes that address a particular issue because of the way that things are named and the way things are called. That is a very persistent problem and continues to be difficult. So if we can help people know where to start looking, that's a great first step. And the hard piece for our team is just, we do want to help people when they call us and we can't on a lot of issues because it would be unethical. Can't be somebody's lawyer, we can't give somebody financial advice. We have to be pretty firm on that, but what we can do is tell people where to look in the law and then advise that they seek counsel or a financial advisor, depending on what the question is.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: And that's kind of our job too, right? I have constituents who ask me those questions too, and I say, I can't give you that, but I can tell you where to find this, who to talk to, same thing. I can't give legal advice, which I've been asked. I can't do this or that, but what I can do is what you said, I think our government, having those places where people can find it, is really good and accessible. And so, again, I'm really grateful that you're even going to take any of this on. Because not all the sources of our government are open to that and providing that service to people. Any other questions of Lauren? Lauren, your office has been great on civics issues,

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: and civics education. I'm very familiar with that, with the efforts. Anything else? Great. Well, maybe we'll make sure that you're applied to

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Yeah, I'll sent it to Cameron, and then I'll email you what he comes up with, and then you'll see it before it gets. Thank you.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Great, thank you very much, Have so a

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: good good We've people our way to have concerns about any of our issues.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Oh, yes. Anything else I can ask. Thank you very much.

[Multiple committee members (various)]: I find it ironic that statutes that require plain language are not themselves speaking language.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: I know we have a lot of opportunities. A lot of opportunities. Even if we're online, lawyers are going to continue to lawyer and we love them for it. And we should always strive to simplify our language a little bit more. And we're doing a huge accessibility work on our website. And a piece of that is to ensure that we are lowering our grade level reading because we tend to write as players and that's not helpful. It actually hurts us because then we're not clear and people call us. So that's a big thing that we're working through is, what are our common questions? How can we answer our common questions as simply as possible on our website? And this is a help to us because then we don't get calls. So, we want to help people, but if we can help people without them, you need to call us even better.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I love frequently asked questions because it's always a question I have.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: I mean, I seek them out everywhere I go. And I think the way that technology is changing, people expect a very different level of ease of using a technology platform or using a website. And so people, I mean, I'm not young anymore, but people are now just expecting checkout carts and IA chatbots and easily to answer questions. So those are all things that are top of mind for us as we move through how can we provide services faster, the way that people can sort, and in a way that continues to allow us to have a small team but provide excellence.

[Multiple committee members (various)]: Those are

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: the big things. You, Sean. Thank you. Members of the committee,

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: we do not have, at this point, anything else scheduled for the day. Does anyone else I mean, at this point, our pending issues of importance, March 28, we have scheduled bench council to come back for the next draft, March 28. We also have 02:30, which at this point is in semifinal condition.

[Lauren Herbert, Deputy Secretary of State]: Semifinal.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yes, semivinal condition. We will be convening Tuesday after the floor, no. At 09:30, we'll be convening before the floor I at nine

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: didn't know about that.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: That's Alex. Is that when he was available? Was I'm when he was

[Multiple committee members (various)]: not going be able to make it. Won't make know that already.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. Well, Alex Farrell is testifying at 09:30, then we have the floor, and we have two other items. We will Yep. Thank you. Is there anything anyone wants to say? No. We are then