Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Welcome. Sorry, the mic? Oh, yeah, think you can hear me. Okay. Welcome, everybody. We're having a joint Welcome to Fair Housing Month, April Fools Day. It's April 1. We begin Fair Housing Month, and we're having a joint session of Senate Economic Development Housing and General Affairs and House General. And we're looking forward to hearing from our three expert witnesses this morning to set us off and launch us into Fair Housing Month. You all for joining us. We're just gonna quickly introduce ourselves, and then we would ask our Caledonia to launch us and get us going into the day. So why don't we start with Keisha and introduce ourselves and right around. Senator Keisha Rawlins, too. Good morning. I'm representative Mary E. Howard that represents Rutland City districts.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: Chittenden, Chittenden County. Good morning, senator Dave Reeks representing Rutland County. Representative Leonora Dodge, Chittenden 23. Senator Randy Barack, Franklin County and Northern Grand Isle County.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Allison Clarkson, chair, senate economic development, Windsor

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow]: I'm

[Rep. Elizabeth Burrows]: a representative of Elizabeth Burrows, and I represent Windsor one, which is Heartland, West Windsor, and Windsor.

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: I'm representative Debbie Dolgin. I represent St. Johnsbury, Concord, and Kirby.

[Rep. Thomas "Tom" Charlton]: Hi. I'm representative Charlton, and I represent Athens, Chester, Grafton, and Windham. They're on the borderlands between Windham and Windsor County. Joe Parsons, absolutely beautiful town. Very tops of the ground.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Welcome. Thank you. And Caledonia, if you'd introduce yourself and go for the guest. Sounds

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: great. My name is Caledonia Livingston, and I am from CBOEO, which is the Champaign Valley Office of Economic Opportunity. My role at CBOEO is the Fair Housing Project Education and Outreach Coordinator. The Fair Housing Project is one of our statewide housing advocacy programs at CBOEO. Through our HAP program, our housing advocacy programs are we're deeply committed to the principle that housing is a fundamental human right. Our mission is to ensure that every Vermonter has equitable access to secure and maintain a home free from discrimination and unnecessary barriers. We provide housing education, support, advocacy, and direct services and referrals for clients that we work with. Through my specific role, I work with clients who are experiencing illegal housing discrimination, as well as people who are inquiring about fair housing laws, and want to know more about what their rights and responsibilities are under both federal and state fair housing laws. The Federal Fair Housing Act was initially enacted in April 1968, which is why we celebrate Fair Housing Month in April. And that was passed after Doctor. Martin Luther King Jr. Was assassinated and the political climate in the country shifted to finally address the need to make housing policies that actually prohibit discriminatory practices. Prior to this legislation, housing practices like redlining, blockbusting, steering and restrictive covenants were perfectly legal and perpetuated the rampant discrimination and segregation that we were seeing in The United States at this time. Black Americans and people with disabilities were disproportionately affected by these practices and had limited access to safe and sustainable housing. The legal definition of fair housing is the right to rent, buy, finance and live in a home free from discrimination or harassment based on membership in a protected class. There are several protected groups classified under both federal and state fair housing laws. I have them listed here on the slide, as you can see, seven federal protected classes, as well as several state elected protected classes. These groups of people have proven to be more at risk for experiencing housing discrimination, just based on who they are and their demographics. Citizenship and immigration status are newly implemented protected classes based on the work of the two committees here. That was a huge fair housing win for us. So thank you all so much for your dedication to housing equity and justice. Despite the implementation of fair housing policies, and unfortunately, the weak support and enforcement systems in place, we see that housing discrimination is still heavily prevalent throughout the country. Can I

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: just ask since I cannot read the small print? Oh, yeah. No. You don't have to go through all the federally protected classes. What should Vermont protected classes that are not federal? Mean, I know the two you just mentioned very well. What are the others?

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: So people in receipt of public assistance, gender identity and sexual orientation, marital status, so that includes whether someone is or is not married, age, and also people who identify as a victim or survivor of abuse, sexual assault or stalking. Age is not a federally protected class.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: No, not. Thank you. Yeah, I'm on the road. Okay. No worries.

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: Great question, actually. Despite implementation of these fair housing policies, there is weak enforcement systems throughout the whole country. So discrimination in housing is still very prevalent. Vermont echoes trends in illegal housing discrimination like the rest of the country. Through client work and consultations, most of the fair housing complaints that I assist people with filing are based on disability, race and family status. However, due to a lack of education around what people's rights are, and or fear of retaliation, many complaints go unaddressed and unreported. It's crucial to consider fair housing laws when making housing policies since many people in protected classes are disparately impacted by laws and regulations that might seemingly be neutral on their face, but create detrimental harm to vulnerable populations. Policies that shorten eviction periods make it even more difficult for people with disabilities or people from other countries whose first language might not be English, as well as single parents who work and maybe don't have the time to address legal proceedings or conduct a housing search. All of these vulnerable people would not benefit from shorter eviction periods. Systemic barriers create real harm for individual lives. And I see this every day in the work that I do. People in protected classes need affordable, safe and sustainable homes that they can maintain without further limitations like being discriminated against. The Fair Housing Project conducts necessary work to educate and inform Vermonters of their protections and responsibilities under fair housing laws. And the work that we do can help prevent illegal housing discrimination. We also help people build the skills to advocate for themselves and refer people and find resources that they can utilize to rectify discriminatory practices. We connect people to our enforcement partners like Vermont Legal Aid and the Vermont Human Rights Commission, as well as enforcement at the federal level, which is the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Unfortunately, the current federal administration has changed the trajectory and priorities of fair housing enforcement at the federal level. And that has both reduced funding and also created many caveats to fair housing programs that currently receive federal funding. This reduction in funding greatly impacts the work that we can do. With these changes, our education outreach efforts can no longer educate people about Vermont protected classes and the merit of these laws if we're using federal funds. Fair housing laws are only as good as the enforcement and funding that back them, and failing to adequately carry them out results in a housing environment that is unjust, unfair, inaccessible, ineffective, and ultimately unhealthy. Thank you so much for your time today and for considering fair housing implications of housing policy as you continue to work in support of all Vermonters. Questions or prayer?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: I just want to thank you for coming. And I know that you have in the past undertaken investigations directly into unfair housing practices. And so, thank you for your contribution to our state and to the ability for people in vulnerable categories to find fair housing.

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Time for questions. Afterwards as well. So once we've had all three testify, then we will open it up also for more questions. It's very curious.

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: You. Thank you. The last thing I'll say is that we have lots of Fair Housing Month events coming up to celebrate Fair Housing. So check out our website at www.fairhousingmonth.bt.org. And you can check

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: that out. I'm just gonna

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: build on Leonora's question, which is, I'm just curious. I know what big enforcement abilities are, but I'm just not sure what your enforcement abilities are. When you talk about When Leonora refers to that, I don't know that you have staff for enforcement.

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: We don't do fair housing enforcement.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Do investigation. Okay.

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: Education and outreach. So we work directly with people experiencing legal housing discrimination by doing consultations with them. And we're kind of the first point of contact or first line of defense for people who experience illegal housing discrimination. We sometimes don't always have to file a formal for housing complaint. Things can be settled through writing a letter or talking to a housing so on and so forth.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: So you do some investigation and then partner with whoever does enforcement. But they also,

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: you'd like, you'll call a housing provider and say, are you aware of that, etcetera. This is the law, yeah. Does it produce results sometimes?

[Caledonia Livingston (CVOEO, Fair Housing Project Education & Outreach Coordinator)]: Yeah, yeah. I have to think, so sometimes people are just unaware that they have these fair housing responsibilities and writing a letter can go a long way.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Yeah, just talking. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. And Rachel, is Rachel here? No, Rachel isn't here yet. So big, do you mind sort of jumping around and joining? Not at all. That leaves

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: more room for me, you know, I can always feel it.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: And thank you for your testimony last night too with that. You're welcome. Thank you.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Okay, I'm just going to switch over to sharing this slide deck instead. Hello, everyone. My name is Big Hartman. I use theythem pronouns. I'm the executive director and general counsel at the state of Vermont Human Rights Commission. It's my pleasure to speak with you today about fair housing. HRC is a state independent state agency who is tasked with enforcing Vermont's Fair Housing and Public Accommodations Act. So this is our state version of the federal Fair Housing Act And I'm going to give you a little bit of an overview of what we do and give you some updates about how things are going in the last year. Happy to answer any questions anyone has along the way. Some of you are probably familiar with what our complaint process looks like. But basically, we have an intake process where we are very commonly receiving calls and emails every day about folks who think they might have experienced discrimination. We field those calls. We do not accept every complaint for investigation. We simply do not have the capacity for that. We have nine staff members, which includes four staff attorney investigators. When we do decide to accept a complaint for investigation, that is handled, a very comprehensive investigation is done by our staff attorney investigators who are impartial. So I just want to be really clear. We're not advocates for the complainants or the respondents in these cases. We are impartial, neutral investigators just looking to see if the law has been violated. Can you give us

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: any sense as to, in that first step, the proportion of complaints that you just don't take? Yes.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yes, I can. And there is some information about that in our annual report, which we have copies of up in the card room today, if you'd like a hard copy. I would say it's around 10% of the inquiries that we get actually become investigations, maybe even fewer than that. In terms of, are

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: there ones that you just don't even do it at intake? You can't just handle an intake because you review all of them and then do some sort of triage?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yes. We're required to review every intake that comes in by our statute. And as you may recall, last year, the legislature created a new intake full time intake person position in our office. And very often, folks are calling us in the housing realm, not necessarily discrimination, but they're explaining to us, like, My landlord didn't turn the heat on yet, you know, things that are really landlord tenant disputes. And very often, our number one referral is to CBOEO who has that tenant rights resource hub and has a hotline. That is our number one housing referral, and it's a really important resource in the state.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Will CVOEO handle statewide situations.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yes, it's not just a local to Champlain Valley. It is a statewide service. Thank goodness. I'll continue on. Throughout our investigation process our investigators are tasked with seeing if there's a way to help settle the case to resolve whatever the dispute is. So that we don't need to move forward with a complete investigative report In cases where we aren't able to resolve those complaints, our investigators write an investigative report, making recommendations to the human rights commissioners, where five governor appointed commissioners who meet once a month to review the investigative reports and make final determinations. In cases that we do find that discrimination has occurred, we then are again engaging parties with settlement. A lot of cases settle after a reasonable grounds determination. And if they don't, we have the ability to take those cases to court for an enforcement action where the Human Rights Commission is the plaintiff. And we, in 2023, got a full time litigator position who is extremely busy with a full caseload of enforcement actions in court. So here's just some information about what I could share with you about what's happened so far this fiscal year. We're three quarters into the fiscal year. On average, we receive at least one call or email about housing discrimination every single day. We have opened 70. So out of those calls, we have narrowed those down to 70 what we call inquiry files in our office. That's something that's They've submitted a questionnaire. They have given us enough information to believe there may be a discrimination complaint there. And we conduct intake meetings for those cases. So already this fiscal year, our intake coordinator has conducted 57 fair housing intake meetings. Those tend to take around an hour where we are meeting one on one with the person and perhaps an advocate. Often folks do not have advocates in these cases or representatives of any kind. And we're trying to get enough information to see if we would accept the complaint, what would we draft, what will be right in that complaint draft that we often assist parties for draft. For their initial filing with our office. So far, we have accepted 24 new fair housing complaints this year, and we have 48 open cases that are under investigation or in litigation. We have completed 17 fair housing investigations so far. Seven of those had reasonable grounds determinations and three settled before we went to the commissioners with an investigative report. So these numbers are up. They're up every year for the last few years. And we are expanding our capacity a little bit each refining our practices so that we can process more people's complaints than ever before. Some examples of common fair housing complaints that we process vast majority we're talking about individuals with disabilities. Reasonable accommodation requests, some change in how the landlord does things or their policies that enable a person with a disability to have full use and enjoyment of their dwelling. A lot of cases involve people's needs for assistance animals in their home to help them with their disabilities. A lot of issues related to parking, access to parking and accessible parking, and other accessibility issues in housing in Vermont. Question for you. So much of Vermont's housing is old, with narrow hallways and no elevators or even the ability.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: What do you do in those situations where you get people saying, can't get in and out with a wheelchair? What do you do for them?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: So folks have the ability to request a modification of a property to see if there could be a ramp installed, for example. That's a little bit different than an accommodation. A modification is a change in the physical premises that's needed to accommodate a person with a disability. And there's also accessibility rules. Older buildings often don't have to follow the new rules that have been implemented in the last twenty to thirty years. But new buildings are supposed to be built with these accessibility rules in their permits. But there are in old buildings where it's not at all feasible to make modifications, there can be reasons for landlords to deny those requests for modifications. But it's a reality that a lot of folks with disabilities are shut out of housing in these rural areas in older buildings that don't have ramps or accessible parking or other amenities that are really necessary for their mobility around their house. Aside from disability related cases, other common claims we see are the next largest category of cases involve race and color based discrimination, national origin discrimination, and discrimination based on receipt of public assistance. This is actually still an area that I think there's a lot of education needed, especially for landlords and housing providers to understand that they can't just say, I don't take Section eight. Housing Choice Vouchers are designed for folks to be able to live where they can find housing. And those house that housing provider needs to provide basic habitability and fill out a little bit of paperwork. We are still doing a lot of education through the complaint process for landlords to understand that they cannot just have a blanket no to all people who receive that housing choice voucher. Or who have social security disability for their income, for example. So if you require employment references, you might accidentally be shutting out people who don't work because of a disability, and that would be discriminatory. We do see a lot because there are a lot of fair affordable housing providers. We do see many cases involving those housing providers. And I just thought it would be worth mentioning to folks that we have seen over the last several years many, many inquiries from people who are recipients of the hotel motel program. They are receiving housing. Those programs are subject to the fair housing rules. Even HUD has interpreted it that way. Even A couple more updates from our office. As I mentioned already, the legislature wisely created an intake coordinator position for our office. And that I was able to hire someone who had previously worked at our office. He could start in August and hit the ground running. Handed him over 100 files on his foot stay, and he is still trying to weed his way through that in addition to processing every new inquiry that's coming in every day. We also received an additional staff attorney position. I also filled that with somebody who had previously worked at our office. Again, another person who was able to hit the ground running. We do see with such a small team, though, that when we have one person move on, like right now, we now have a vacancy in a staff attorney investigator position. What that means is somebody's entire caseload is frozen. New complaints that come in, I cannot assign to an investigator because everybody is swamped, and we do not want to burn out any more staff members. We really need to sustain the team that we have and build some more institutional knowledge. I've been with the Human Rights Commission for almost five years, and I am the longest term employee there. So that's concerning. Also, as you all are probably aware, last year, we implemented new legally protected categories. That is immigration status and citizenship. We have partnered with a community organization, and we collaborated with them to conduct some informal investigation around housing applications to see whether landlords were aware of the new requirement that they not require social security numbers as part of an application.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Sorry.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow]: Oh, maybe you were going to finish, but I'm just curious how that's going.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: It's going. What we found in that maybe one month of housing application, public inquiry, was a substantial portion of landlord applications still ask for a social security number and require some extra steps to if someone doesn't have a Social Security number, to and some folks still are not aware that they can't just deny housing because you don't have a Social Security number. That was part of the new law that was passed last year. So we're going to be handling that with informal inquiry, informal investigation process. I'm not going to initiate a new complaint unless I have someone really like bearing down and kicking, you know, saying, no, I'm not going to comply with that. But we are going to be undertaking to contact all of those housing providers and make sure they're aware of the new statutory requirements and see if they would be willing to change their application, make it clear that there are other forms of ID that they can accept for applications. And then the other thing we're trying to do to get the word out about those new legally protected categories is right now we're in a drafting process for HRC guidance document about how we're going to apply these new legal protections in Vermont. So I'm doing one for Fair Housing. That one's almost done. And I'll also be putting one out hopefully this calendar year about public accommodations protections for people based on immigration status and citizenship is

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: a serious issue right now. What's

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: is the Vermont Landlords Association is that a membership organization, and do you have any relationship with them?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I don't know about It is

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow]: a membership.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yeah, I'm not sure about that. We don't have any kind of formal relationship there. I do think that they that's an avenue through which some landlords can get some advice about and maybe some training about fair housing.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: Does CBOEO have relationship with them?

[Jess Hyman (CVOEO, Statewide Housing Advocacy Programs)]: Yes. Jess, I'm from CBOEO Statewide Housing Advocacy Programs. So we do partner with the Vermont Landlords Association, it's a membership organization. In fact, the Definitive Guide to Ranking in Vermont, which is a fantastic resource that outlines both tenant and landlord's rights and responsibilities, was co authored between CBOEO and the Land Homes Association, and we have partnered with them in the past on for education. Great.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: So that could be updated to reflect. Has it already been updated?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: It has been updated with the new protected class.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: Right, thank you.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yeah. And our office also offers every other month, I do a three hour free online fair housing training that it's geared towards landlords and housing providers, of That's great. These are your responsibilities under this statute. It's an opportunity for them to ask us a lot of questions, hypotheticals, and get the information that they need. So we've obviously updated that training to make sure we're trying to get the word out as much as we can about What's

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: What's that? That?

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: Attendant, does anybody come?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yes. Hey. They come and they love it. Feedback has been really positive. I would say I get between ten and twenty five folks each. Cool. That's good.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: That's a lot of fun.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow]: -And I was just gonna also add, you know, we, as legislators, can also do promotion. Like, in our newsletters about Fair Housing Month, I usually add something in my piece monthly for April. And then in South Burlington, we're having several events that the city's putting on as well. So we can do our part as well to promote the different things going on as well in our communications with people.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: And last year, as some of you may know, we held a civil rights summit that included a couple of panels about fair housing. We are going to have that again this year. We're planning on it taking place in September, one of the last two weekends of September that will be in Randolph, but it will also be a virtual option for attendance. It was really well received last year. CVOEO was a crucial partner in the planning and execution of that event. And we are going to try to keep up with that each year as resources permit.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: If you guys know what we need to do, let us know. Right?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: What's that? We'll let you know by date. Yeah.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: The sooner you know, the better.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow]: You'll be invited, I'm sure.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: Yes. But you don't think they'll just pass us by?

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: No. The invite last time.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Okay. And so this year's summit, we had a couple of panels that addressed housing justice issues. You can read more about this in our summit guide. We have a summit report document that we published in January. We have copies of it up at our table today, and I believe I brought some with me as well, if you'd like to hear more about what the summit recommendations were. Basically, we use this event as a forum for community leaders and advocates to come and share ideas and strategies about what can we do to advance civil rights here in Vermont when we feel that our federal government hasn't been a partner anymore in civil rights enforcement. So we move policy forward on housing justice. The recommendations from the summit included creating a state funded rental subsidy recognizing the decline in available section eight funding to pass a just cause eviction law. Adding housing status as a legally protected category. This is something that's been advanced several years running and has not yet gained enough traction. There's a lot of different ways to advance inclusionary zoning that I know many of you have been working on. And we have been also urging an update to the Roadmap to End Homelessness, recognizing so much of fair housing is interrelated with the homelessness crisis that our state is dealing with. Lots more I could say about that, but I'm going to move forward. Just want to talk a little bit about what's happened with HUD in the past year. We have seen a dramatic shift in fair housing policy. Historically, HUD has funded a portion of our fair housing enforcement work through a federal program called the Fair Housing Assistance Program, or FAP. The FAP program seems For several months this year was just non existent a lot of staff were let go or furloughed for extensive periods of time and when they returned, or even before the first shutdown in the fall, the new guidance from HUD has been very concerning to me and counterparts across the country who are trying to continue to move the needle forward on fair housing. So they HUD has narrowed the construction of protected classes under the Fair Housing Act, saying not only HUD, but also other FAP agencies should only be applying fair housing protections based on the plain language of the federal Fair Housing Act and attempting to kind of have us not enforce the state legal protections that we've gone out of our way to add over many years. They have revoked a lot of prior guidance documents, documents that we have been relying on for decades, not just like new Biden guidance documents. So that is a void that we plan to try to fill by implementing our own guidance documents that will help the public understand how we plan to continue to interpret our state law protections. There's been a new urging that we prioritize cases where there's only strong evidence of intentional discrimination, meaning someone needs to overtly say, I'm not going to rent to you because of your race, which is not really how discrimination plays out in the real world in these times. And they have also imposed new requirements and expectations for entities like ours who receive federal funds for fair housing activity. Those new requirements are being challenged in court. A lawsuit brought by 15 different states, including Vermont, was initiated, I think, in the last two weeks in 15 different states. We

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: What's an example of those kinds of requirements?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: So one requirement is that we will not use fair housing law to advance protections for people based on gender identity, even though that is a fair reading of sex based discrimination under federal law. Another requirement is that we will ensure that anyone who's filing a complaint with us is in compliance with immigration laws, which would also violate our new state law. So those are a couple of examples that are really disturbing. They also do not want us to be using disparate impact analysis in our cases, which is really the way that we address systemic problems in fair housing. And how do they

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: communicate their displeasure? I mean, there threats of lawsuits? Are there threats of DOJ?

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: What's It's been

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: How they voice this discontent? It's been attached to the cooperating agreement for us to renew our contract with them this year.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: And are those requirements, relate to how you use federal funds or what you do altogether? Both. So in other words, theoretically under these amendments to the cooperative agreement, you couldn't say, well, we are going work on the protected class of gender using state funds. That's not an answer.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: That piece we may work around, we just wouldn't try to dual file those claims with HUD like we had previously. And therefore, we wouldn't be getting paid for those cases from But when it comes to disparate impact analysis, the guidance document that they wanted us to sign off on basically said we would not have any disparate impact findings of any kind, not even related to housing. So we do employment discrimination, and we do public accommodations discrimination, and we wouldn't be able to use disparate impact in those cases either. So it was not something that I felt we could, in good conscience, sign on to. And we're very pleased that there are so many other states joining us in the challenge to that in federal court. Yes.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: What is the timeline for renewal of the contract? And are all of

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: the states the same timeline? Typically, the performance year has aligned with our fiscal year. And so at the beginning of this fiscal year, usually by September, I would have received our funding for the cases we closed the year before. We would use that for this fiscal year. And we would sign at that time the agreement for the year moving forward. They did change the performance year along with all these other changes so that now it aligns with the federal fiscal year. But we have not received our payment for the past year of work that we perform without these new requirements in place. And so that is another part of the lawsuit.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: And are they holding it specifically for that reason? Or why have we not been paid for that?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: We have not been paid because we did not receive a voucher to sign off on until this month, and we did

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: not sign that. They say why?

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: No. They said they were implementing new voucher process fees. Just to tag

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: on to Ashley's concern, how

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: much money is at stake for Salt? For the work we performed in last fiscal year that we did not receive this year, it's $187,000 which is almost double what we've ever received in the past because we've really doubled down on our fair housing enforcement, seeing it as a place that we could expand our budget. Terrible. So we did not receive that money. There was a short that means we didn't do a lot of things we were planning on doing this fiscal year with that money. And by just doing the bare minimum, we only needed $25,000 out of the budget adjustment to just maintain status quo. So that did go through, and we will be Okay for this fiscal year. But we aren't able to do any of the additional projects that we had planned to do with that additional funding. And we are not planning on receiving any federal dollars next year.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Geez. And that's what percent of your budget? Historically, it's been around 10%. So we have three more minutes. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Elizabeth. I want to Rachel's not joining us. Elizabeth has a question. And then I think we may have questions for both Caledonia and

[Rep. Elizabeth Burrows]: I was going to just quickly comment that things like the disparate impact requirements, the fact that they haven't been paid over the last year is not because of something that happened in the beginning of the last year. It is a series of requirements that have rolled out over the last year and mostly unrelated to your work. You've been working all along. Disparate impact came into, or rule came into effect, I think, in February. And so they're not getting paid because of some action on their part. It's really the Changing values. Way that HUD is running.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: The disparate impact requirements and other requirements for processing Fair Housing under the FAT program, they did announce those to us in October, I want to say. It could have been the September.

[Rep. Elizabeth Burrows]: You weren't but you were already not getting paid.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Right. Usually by then, we would have received our funding for the prior year's work, which is basically getting paid per case.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: I'm pretty much out of time.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I think that Jess Hyman may have been planning to speak. Am I wrong?

[Jess Hyman (CVOEO, Statewide Housing Advocacy Programs)]: Could I ask just one thing? There's not. Senator, we If could introduce

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: yourself. I'm sorry.

[Jess Hyman (CVOEO, Statewide Housing Advocacy Programs)]: Thank you. Jess Simon with CBOE with Statewide Housing Advocacy Programs. And I just wanted to, number one, pass along Rachel Patterson's apologies. She's ill today and and regrets missing testimony. And I just wanted to add just a a one quick thing to follow-up on Big's information about federal funding for fair housing enforcement. That same hit has happened with federal funding for fair housing education outreach. So true historically, the fair housing project of c v o CBOEL, which serves the entire state, has received, education outreach funding through HUD to do the work. It's basically been the primary source of our funding, a 125,000 a year. And in the past last year, our funding was cut. It was eventually renewed due to federal lawsuits. And we were offered the opportunity to have another grant this year to continue this important work, we use to educate the general public and also housing providers, service providers, and municipal officials because fair housing law applies to land use as well. And we've received the new funding, which was great. However, as Korea mentioned, it comes with a lot of strings. For example, the basic fair housing information sheet that you have in front of you, we cannot print with PEDFUD funds because it lists the state protected classes, and it also mentions that we provide interpreted workshops and translated versions of our materials. So this essential information that's important for everyone who lives in Vermont, whether you're renting, whether you're a homeowner, whether you're a housing provider or service provider, anyone living in our communities, this we've not used federal funds to share that information. So fortunately, this is core to CDOEO's values, to provide information, to get information to people where they're at. And so we found other funding to share that information. But it has a it has an impact. It has an impact on our statewide enforcement, and it has an impact on the ability for all of us to be able to understand our rights and responsibilities under fair housing law. So I just wanted to add that extra little bit of information. That's a mess.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: Yeah. Thank you. Very much.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Thank you all. I assume you've sent all your materials to Kiara and Miriam. We put them up on our website.

[Jess Hyman (CVOEO, Statewide Housing Advocacy Programs)]: We're so grateful for all your work and for the opportunity to be here today to celebrate Fair Housing Month. And today, the governor file has signed the Fair Housing Proclamation Right. As well. Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Good. Good. Thank you. You.

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: And I guess we are jointly Can

[Rep. Saudia LaMont]: I say something really quickly?

[Rep. Leonora Dodge]: Saudia, please.

[Rep. Saudia LaMont]: Hi. Thank you so much. I just wanted to thank thank Jess and Caledonia and Big for their testimony today and all the work that they do in our state. And I wanted to echo Rep Krasnow's statement on not only can we raise awareness around this, but we can also host workshops and do things for our constituencies and our communities. I know I'm hosting one in Lamoille County on April 20. Caledonia will be coming to do some tenants rights workshops and training with my community, and I encourage other folks to do the same. Thank you.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Great. Thank you, Saudia.

[Rep. Elizabeth Burrows]: Thank you, everyone.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: The month is now clearly officially launched.

[Big Hartman (Executive Director & General Counsel, Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Please come up and visit us at our table, Marc, and speak with our community engagement.

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow]: Thank you for being here for not just the members of this committee, but being upstairs. Interactions with everyone.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Yeah. Perfect. Thank you, everybody. We'll see you at 11AM twenty seven. 10:00. I mean, 10:00. 10:00. 10:00. O'clock. We

[Rep. Emilie Krasnow]: should be eleven.

[Sen. Alison Clarkson (Chair, Senate Economic Development, Housing and General Affairs)]: Ten. I'm at