Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Thank you. Welcome back, everyone, to the House Committee on General Announce. So we have heard an introduction and a walkthrough of s three twenty eight, which is an act relating to housing and common interest communities. We heard from the sponsor we've heard from the chair and member and a member of the committee, the Senate Economic Development Housing and General Affairs Committee, and from our counsel, Cameron Wood, who specializes in housing, and Ellen Tchaikovsky, who specializes in land use. Now we are going to start the arduous process of taking testimony on this bill and related issues. And our first witness, as is always our first witness, is Polly Major from BHCB. Polly, take it away.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Thank you for the record, Polly Major with the Vermont Housing Proprietary Board and it's great to be back with you all. You've invited us in to talk really specifically about section nine, which is the farm worker housing report, but also to provide broad comments on the bill. So I'll save my broad comments, which are just supportive to the end and start from the farm worker housing section. So as you heard in the overview of the bill, there is a section that asks the HCB to do an update to the Vermont farm worker housing needs assessment. So I wanted to share kind of how we first came to doing a needs assessment, the program that got stood up because of that, and what we think we can report on moving through that. A picture of cows, because I don't often get to use all my wonderful cow pictures in this room. I usually get to do that with your colleagues in the ag department. In 2020, BH- Are

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: these stock photographs, or do they let you go out with the camera and take pictures?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: I don't get to take the pictures. This is a farm that we visited on an All Stafford retreat this summer. It's in Hartland. It's a project where BHCV did the conservation easement on the farm, but excluded a portion for the farm to build housing. They have kind of a collective model with, I believe, people,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: like

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: I believe, living there, and really a kind of agricultural collective It's

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: also where our colleague John Bartholomew lives.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Lives at

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: Cobb Hill. Well,

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: I think half or all the staff wanted to move there after we visited on an August day last summer. In 2020, building off-

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Just a second. We're looking at, we're taking testimony now on 03/28, Mary, and we are looking at the farm worker housing Go ahead, Polly, sorry.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Sorry about that. That is all right. I'm coming from Senate appropriations, so we had thirty minutes for our entire budget. So I think I'm running a little fast on this after. So in 2020, the HCB commissioned a report that was a farm worker housing needs assessment for the state. We did this because we've been building on advocacy and previous work by Bridges for Health, by Migrant Justice, and by UBM, all who are really both elevating the need to improve farm worker housing in Vermont and elevating really dire living conditions on some farms. And also the needs of farms to have funding to invest in the housing that they were providing to their workers. And so we commissioned a consultant, John Ryan, with Development Cycles to perform this needs assessment. And in doing so, as he looked at the landscape, he identified with Bridges for Health, about 600 farm workers who identified that they were stressed by their living situations, that the quality of their housing was inadequate. And so that in this broader needs assessment, which I provided to you all, that was really the identified need of the housing that we needed to improve. Coming out of this report with this kind of clear problem statement, BHCB put out an RFP asking for an entity to establish a farm worker housing program that would, we asked for proposals on if you were to invest dollars in farm worker housing and manage that program, how would you do it? The strongest proposal came from the Champlain Housing Trust. And over the course of several years, Vermont Housing Conservation Board directed a portion of the one time appropriations we received from this body towards the farm worker housing program stood up by the Champlain.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Can I ask you a favor? One of our members is waiting to get into the room. You have Miriam isn't here at this moment. Do you have the Zoom?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Let me see what happens if I say

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: Oh, she's here. There she is.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: You've already, You

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: want me to hit admit?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: No, no. Okay. Yeah, it's just Okay, go on.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: So the way CHT's program works is that they provide forgivable loans of up to $30,000 to improve housing. They're forgivable over the course of ten years. And then they provide loans up to $120,000 for the replacement of housing, 30,000, which if that is forgivable. And these repairs really run the gamut of the needs that were identified in that housing needs assessment. So septic repairs, electrical, mold remediation, some really dramatic before and after pictures are coming out of this program. And also really impactful stories from the farms that are served. Were just able to support one farm as they did a total replacement of a manufactured home that was housing five different workers and a child and put in place a modular dwelling with five bedrooms and they're really seeing especially health impacts for the child not living in that cramped and poor housing. So the farm was really happy to be able to provide that and just with the challenge of being a farm right now, many farms just don't have the borrowing capacity to do the repairs that they want to do. And that's what this program is able to give them.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Is there a match requirement?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Often $30,000 and especially for replacement $120,000 doesn't cover the full cost of the project. So a lot of the time the farm is coming with matching or is adding to these projects. And so thus far, there have been 74 repaired units and six homes that have been totally replaced, 300 farm workers. So if you think if the beginning total was six, we've done three, but that was five years ago, so housing does degrade over time. There is continued need out there and this program is making a dent in addressing this need of the farms that are coming forward and seeking this support. I will kind of reiterate that this funding has been one time funding that has been part of the large housing appropriations that have gone to the HCV and our board's gonna face really difficult decisions as we move forward on how do we balance the need for farm worker housing with shelter, with recovery residents, with general rentals. Debbie?

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: I just need it explained again. The 30,000 forgivable, does that, like, go into their how do I say it? Their income or their do they get, like, a $10.99 on that? Do they have to pay income tax? I guess that's it. When it's a $1,030,000 forgivable, and why take ten years?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: So one of the reasons for that ten years is to ensure that you're not taking out a forgivable loan, getting it forgiven, and then maybe flipping this to be Airbnb on your farm, something like that. We want to make sure that the use continues to be farm worker housing. In terms of how it intersects with personal income, I imagine that's why it's designed that way, but you go administer the program so I can get a confirmation from My

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: understanding is that a grant would be income forgivable loan. What I remember is that a grant is income all in the year that you receive it. Forgivable loan, it's $3,000 of income over ten years, so it doesn't impact one of the years.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: I will get clarity.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: That's what I remember too from VHIP conversations. Yes, because I

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: didn't know that ten year period as well.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Can I ask a quick question too? Yes please. Are these homes also eligible for VHIP?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: I do not know. VHIP doesn't have a requirement for not occupied. These homes are occupied. They're also not traditionally rented. So this program is really tailored to a very unique form of housing. So, I going to flip over to the language here.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And can you remind us how much went into this program?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Thus far, I have those numbers right up on another version of the slide and I took them out. Think it's around $2,000,000 and I would have to double check.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thank you. So, 2020 was the study, so did it start in 2021? I believe it started

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: in 2020 this year. Okay. The total board investment. So this program is not established under statute and it has never received an appropriation for farm worker housing specifically. What BHCB has received is housing for the creation and preservation of affordable housing, including housing to serve these various populations or recovery residences underneath and farm worker housing has been included in that. So that's been the authorization that allows us to for the board to direct dollars towards this program. We are not receiving that in the series budget. And therefore, if the Champlain Housing Trust wants to continue this program, which there's continued demand in pipelines, I assume they do, they would be asking for funding out of the Vermont Housing and Conservation Trust Fund, that base budget from VHCB, which could fund this activity, it funds a lot of activity. So I think that gets to the conversation around the report and our goals of the report. And if we identify additional need, what is our capacity to actually meet take on projects to meet that need? So there is a very committed advocate, Buster Caswell, that I'm sure many of you have heard from. He's a farm worker himself and is passionate about farm worker housing. My understanding is that he's been asking for an update to the housing needs assessment and that's one of the reasons why the Senate and Natural Resource Committee put in language asking BHCB to do an update of the needs assessment. Because of the conversation, because the national national atmosphere right now around labor and farm labor, I would not recommend actually doing a needs assessment that is going on to farms and identifying farm labor right now. And so what we said was, and this needs assessment is metals from 2020. So we know we still have other farms to serve. We have a pipeline of farms coming forward saying, yes, we wanna do this housing. What I think would be useful right now is an evaluation of the program that was stood up, this pilot program that CHT is running to ask the question, how is it doing in meeting the needs that were identified in this needs assessment? And are there other barriers to improving farm worker housing that aren't being addressed by this program? And that report is what we could bring back to you next session and say, what else could, how is the current program doing? What else could be done? The language that is in the S328 right now has both a reference to the farm worker needs assessment, but also talks about the on farm housing program. I think we might want to clean that up a little bit because the program that the HCB has funded is specifically a farm worker housing program. That is because that is the news that was lifted up by the advocacy community. And frankly, program designed for investing in owned homes is going to be very different than homes for workers or rental homes because the value of that investment is either accruing to the owner of the farm or it's for the homeowner. And so that's why there is this distinction. I understand, especially throughout conservation work with farms, on farm housing is a really important issue and needs attention as well. It is a slightly different issue than I feel like we can address in our report that's reflecting back on the program that we set up that's specifically farm worker housing. So I have some suggested language here that just focuses it on the program evaluation. I think the policy question for the committee and your colleagues as you're working through this is, do you want a land use report that's asking the question, what are the barriers to on farm housing? And that's a big important question. I'm not sure VHC B is the land use expert to answer that, but that's what I heard Senator Ron Pinsale talk about in her introduction of the bill. Or are you looking for a needs assessment that would be going out to farms and saying who lives where and in what conditions and what's the need that we need to address. And I know there was a bill in the attic committee that was asking the agriculture department when they do farm inspections to also inspect housing. And I think my reflection on that is that might identify housing that needs improvement, but the farm might not have financial capacity to do it. So that would drive a pipeline for this program. But that needs assessment would be a different type of report that you could do. Or do you want a program evaluation that says, Hey, in the last five years, we stood up a new pilot program. How's it doing? What changes do we want? And that's the type of report that the HCP as the funder of the program would be well sorted, well situated to do. So that's the language I provided here is if you want that program evaluation, that's something we're well suited to do. You might wanna have a larger conversation around what are the land use barriers to on farm housing or what is the broader need for on farm, whether it be farmworker or farmer housing. Those are my 2¢.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Questions? I have a question. Okay, so as I understand it, a true assessment would mean of the need, mean going on farms, quantifying the need, and you think that's beyond what VHCb has the resources to do and would be better done by the state?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: I don't know if it would be better done by the state. I do think that would take resources, whether it was VHCb hiring a consultant to do that, probably a UBM researcher or the state doing similar, a needs assessment typically is a larger study that takes an investment.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: And you're not interested in looking at all the land use barriers because it's beyond the entity's expertise, the Commission's expertise. I guess my question is, if this hadn't appeared in this, would you even want to do the assessment of the program or is this superfluous at this point? I ask because you said, look, we know what we're doing, we know what the need is, we have a line of people who want it, we just don't have the money.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: I would be interested in doing it because I do think it's really important when we stand up a new program to several years look for later, reflect back on how is it doing, how is this working for the farmers and it can, we're administering programs. I think we just have a lot in front of us and keep on moving forward and it'd be helpful to have a reason to say, how's it going? Are there any changes? Can we improve? We always want to have that feedback system where we're asking recipients or people who decided not to apply, is this working for you and what can we change? So that's what we would do here.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Great. But do you need us to tell you to do that?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Here's the other side of the story. We would love to report back to you because as I said, this has been funded through one time funding and this program to continue is going to need the support of the legislature to do so. Yeah.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: So, do any of the committee members online have questions or members of the committee sitting here unelectronically and in person? Yes, Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Thank you. Just forgive my ignorance in the question that I'm about to ask, but but is there a role for LAOB in this?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Of course, we'd be happy to, especially as we're thinking about the design of how we're getting input into this feedback on this program, we would work with them on that. Thank you. This program was one that stood up before polyofy was maybe in the same year that they were statute was passed.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: You very much, Polly.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: I have thoughts on the rest of the bill.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: I'm sorry. The last

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: thing I wanted to do is cut you up. Quick thoughts. First, just appreciation for the work of the Senate Economic Development Committee and putting it together, brought support for the bill. And specifically, although I know that there's a different path for them, payment assistance really support the work that does to support access to home ownership through the down payment assistance program. The treasurer's 10 to 12.5 for Vermont program, that's one that we have seen build gaps in some affordable housing projects like Reade Commons here in St. Albans. It's a helpful source. It doesn't displace the need for the deep subsidy through VHCb, but it helps in the funding stack. And finally, a piece that we work closely with the Disabilities Council on, the Service Supported Housing Advisory Council, I think has a lot of promise as a new entity to help advance projects that provide housing for Vermonters with intellectual and developmental disabilities. I know you'll have Kirsten Murphy in later to talk about the Council its makeup, its purpose. I think as a funder of Housing for Behavioral and Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities, one of the reasons why we're excited to sit on that council, but have that council as a resource, is I see it as a valuable place where developers can take projects and have some early feedback on how to best design those projects to meet the needs of this population and get feedback on does this project design really meet within the service regulations coming out of Dale and AHS? Does it really meet the design needs of what the self advocates are saying that they and their peers, places where they and their peers want to live. And so it would just be valuable both for creating a pipeline and for really designing, making high quality design projects. So we support that and look forward to participating on it should it become an entity. Thank you. Just

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: FYI, I will talk to representative Durfee. I would suggest a flyby to him on the farm worker housing program.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Happy to do that, and we've been updating his committee pretty regularly throughout the years on the program. I So would be great.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Okay. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Thank you

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: all. Our next witness is coming in by video and I see I see again a fancy electronic vision. There she is. We have we have the electronic version of Joan Goldstein here with us. Joan, welcome.

[Joan Goldstein (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Economic Development)]: Thank you so much. Good afternoon, chairman Mihaly and the rest of the committee. Can you hear me okay?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: We can hear you. Just FYI, we we had a walk through of 03/28, including the provision about VITA, which looks almost identical to the provision that we had in July. And we just started taking testimony and you're up.

[Joan Goldstein (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Economic Development)]: Excellent. Thank you so much for the opportunity, and thank you for including it in your bill and the Senate Economic Committee for including it in theirs. And just just so that you know, I know we spoke earlier in the session, and Maura Collins of VHFA and I worked together on language. And I do see that the language was tweaked a little bit. So I just want to make sure that in the tweaking, we're not leaving something out. So originally, the language as set forth was going to be the first part after consultation and with deference to the Vermont Housing Finance Agency on applications that are eligible for financing from both. Joint financing with a financing lender for multiunit housing developments of five or more units when requested by a financing lender. Our original language was provided. The foregoing shall not include financing for developments determined by the Vermont Housing Finance Agency as being for occupancy by persons and families of low and moderate income as such term is defined in 10 BSA six zero one(eleven), or otherwise receiving federal low income housing tax credits, state affordable housing tax credits, or financing with mortgage revenue bonds, multifamily housing bonds, or other funding issued by Vermont Housing Finance Agency. Although it feels like the language then got simplified to just you can't do anything that the HFA is doing, there is a slight nuance that the language I've set forth by Maura and myself is very specific, and would probably prefer it that way, just because there may be an instance, like in a mixed use type of development, where VHFA may be funding the housing piece, and Vida may be asked to do the commercial piece. So we don't want to preclude any of our normal financing. Let me put it that way.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: So, Joan, let me try to clarify this because this is sort of news to us. First of

[Joan Goldstein (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Economic Development)]: It was it was a it was it was the way we had requested it for quite a long time, and then something must have just changed right around crossover.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Well, first of all, just really basically, because I don't remember, is the language in July as it left the house? Is that the specific thing you just read, or is that the one channel which

[Joan Goldstein (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Economic Development)]: This was the language I just read was an agreement that we've we sent to house commerce, oh god, early in the the year, and then my understanding was Senate Economic did adopt that language. But somewhere between that earlier in the session and crossover, it did change to a very simplified, the basically saying what whatever BHFA is not doing. And so I think there was a reason for the specificity. So I would just ask I mean, I could send this. I know we sent it to house commerce and sent it to senate economic, but somewhere along the line, it changed. And it it looks like it's just simplifying it, but I think in the simplification, it might be leaving some things out that could cause some issue.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: I think what would be helpful to us would be is if you would send the committee, you can just send it to Miriam, your preferred language and a very short statement of what you just said to us, in other words, what kind of project might excluded in the more general language that you'd like to have included. Okay?

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: Okay. I will do that.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Right. And I will, for members of the community, I will talk to the chair senate I mean, house economic development just to make sure we're at

[Joan Goldstein (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Economic Development)]: On the same.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Any

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: anything else, Joan?

[Joan Goldstein (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Economic Development)]: No. Just thank you very much. I'm we we look forward participating and doing our bit to ease the housing crisis in Vermont and to extend what we do right now with all commercial banks.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Excellent.

[Joan Goldstein (Commissioner, Vermont Department of Economic Development)]: Thank thank you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Thank you very much. Alrighty. Next up is Chris Deleeuw, who's president of the Vermont Bankers Association and knows this committee too well.

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, committee members, for the record, Chris DeLillo, President of Vermont Bankers Association, I'll speak very briefly on two sections. The first is section number five that you just covered with Joan and we would support any language that Joan and Laura Collins agree on. So whatever you need to do to get it back to that point that was submitted to the House Commerce Committee, you are absolutely supportive of that and glad that they were able to reach an agreement that works for both parties. The second section is section four, this deals with the common interest community study.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Chris, can I,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: sorry, Mary? Yeah, go ahead.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Can I ask you, can you flesh that out a little bit for us? Like why the bankers would want that language? Is it just because it's gonna enable you to conduct your business safely? Is it encourage business?

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: The answer is we don't like to see our friends fight,

[Polly Major (Vermont Housing & Conservation Board - VHCB)]: and

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: both of them are very close friends and partners of our community, and if they, when they reached an agreement that worked for them, we felt that was most important and allows for additional capital if necessary in the marketplace, so it's more we just didn't want our friends fighting. Yep.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: So it worked out very, very well. And it is your impression, Chris, that the language that Joan read was actually agreed to?

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: The language that was submitted to the House Commerce Committee was the language that I understood they both agreed to. Okay. How it got changed, there were few amendments along the way in the Senate that happened at the last minute, maybe this was one of them. The house commerce submission was the language I understood they agreed to. Great, thank you. The second issue is the common interest community study, this morphed into a study from, I believe it was a Senate Appropriations Committee offered this recommendation. And we're very supportive of that. When I initially testified in the Senate, I had indicated that we didn't have a problem with the approach they were taking on that language as introduced. Subsequently, in working with our folks, we said, you know what, there is a problem that if that language is introduced or adopted, could create difficulty for selling mortgages in the secondary market who have very specific criteria on owner occupied primary residence, and we didn't wanna run into that situation. So we like what's been put in here as far as the study is concerned. I don't think you need to change this at all, but I would just say, I think it's more than just legal issues, it's more about policy issues and how markets function in this area. And I think that also is part of the consideration that you all should be looking at, because if you can't sell a mortgage in the secondary market because of deed restrictions, As you know, we've talked about this before, that's problematic out there for a lot of borrowers. So the study's perfect and we will be more than happy to volunteer our resources and thoughts as that study develops over the next few months.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes. I guess I'm just a little confused because my thinking was not that we would create statewide further restrictions. If anything, we are trying to make sure that the communities have leadership that's well informed and that they are setting up bylaws that are consistent with state law.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: That was the purpose behind our bill, which created the resource center. I think what happened is, as part of just sort of a larger inquiry into what is the state of the law on common interest subdivisions, there was a discussion of all kinds of things and one of, you know, they the senate apparently went into it a good bit and realized that maybe they bit off more than they could chew, and so they went to a study instead. Emilie?

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. I'll also add some context, and thank you for this testimony. I think one of the flags that I raised as well to the senators was that, you know, insurance policies would also go up if what the original language that was introduced was to allow unlimited, no restriction of rentals. And so that would folks who are already on fixed incomes in my community were concerned about, you know, if more than 20% of the units were going to be for rentals, it would increase our premium significantly. And also, as just mentioned about obtaining a mortgage as well. So I think that while the intent was to not restrict and allow, you know, more rentals and and not discriminate against that those decisions, it would have had some unintended consequences for people that were already in the unit. So I appreciate the testimony. And and as we continue to study this, that's a a huge flag for me. That would have been a real problem in at least the area where I live, that was a huge concern.

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: Yes, this is more of a thoughtful approach, we're gonna crawl before we walk or run, and I think that study can give you some really good information as to whether changes need to be made or may not going forward.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Could you it would help me just a little understand a little more. Were there discussions of changes that would have made it harder to sell loans to condominiums or whatever on the secondary market?

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: Yeah. If you look at bill the as introduced in the Senate, had any covenant restriction or condition contained in any deed, contract, security interest or other instrument affecting the transfer or sale of any interest in a common interest community and any provision of governing document associated with a common interest community, such as a declaration bylaw rule that either effectively prohibits or unreasonably restricts a unit owner from leasing the individual owner's unit for residential purposes or is in conflict with this section is void and unenforceable. So that means that if we had a restriction in a deed or covenant that was void or unenforceable, we would have run into a problem selling that in the secondary market because the secondary market is looking at primary residences, that's what they're willing to accept. You also had another section of the bill that deal with proposed family childcare homes And I think you'll hear from VHFA tomorrow that they also have some limitations on how much of a residential unit can be used for commercial purposes. So again, I think that's why it's best to step back and look at these issues to make sure we're not creating any unintended consequences before we go ahead and adopt any public policy in this area.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: So in the world today, loans are sold. Absolutely, yes. And there are they sold they're sold where the bylaws or the governance codes and restrictions are silent on rental?

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: They well, they don't have a are they that I can't answer because I obviously have not looked at every bylaw or code out there to see whether they are silent or whether they are affirmative in their position on primary residence. Right. But if we're selling them in the secondary market, then the affirmation of it as primary residence is what's critical. Yeah.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Questions of Chris? What's your support of the study?

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: Supportive of the study, supportive of the language that the then BHFA send to you, of the tax credits for the down payment assistance, very, very critical program to get a lot of individuals who are struggling to come up with the money they need for a down payment to get into housing, so that is vital as well.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Can I I just wanna thank you, Chris, because I was really concerned about as it was introduced with so the study looks good to me as well, but I had great concerns that I think you shared, and I appreciate your advocacy on those issues?

[Chris D'Elia (President, Vermont Bankers Association)]: I'm happy to help.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair, House Committee on General and Housing)]: Any questions? Thank you, Grace. Thank you. That's it. Right? So tomorrow, members of the committee, tomorrow we start at nine at 09:00, and we're starting with a joint hearing of senate economic development and us. And we'll be in Room 11, and it's because of Fair Housing Awareness Day, and we'll have three, at least three, perhaps more, testimony, and that will go from nine to 09:45. And then at ten, we're gonna have more testimony on 03:28 and some committee discussion before lunch and floor. After the floor, we're gonna talk briefly about the fate of s two thirty, which is to remember the Tom Nibel's labor bill, and we'll be discussing what we're gonna do about extreme temperature. Okay? Mhmm. Any thoughts before we sign off? And that anybody online have thoughts that they wanna add before we adjourn? Thank you, everybody. We are adjourned.