Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Morning, everybody, and welcome to the house committee on general and housing. It's 03/24/2026. This morning for the next hour, we're going to spend a little time We have in front of us an omnibus labor bill S two thirty with various elements to it, and we're looking at other elements which we might or might not elect to add, and one of those elements that's come to us and, in fact, is in a bill on our wall is extreme heat, and that is what we're going to be talking about today. Our first witness is Kendall Smith, who we all know well, but now is in a different role.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: And may I have our OSHA director?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Absolutely. Why

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: don't you, you know

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: there's a chair next to you, the two of you can sit and testify together. Alright. We're very interested in, and then you know the committee. I'll I'll let you introduce yourself. Why don't you introduce yourself, and I'll just make a quick statement. Go ahead.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: So good morning, Kendall Smith, Commissioner of Vermont Department of Labor, and

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers' Compensation and Safety for the Department of Dirk, also welcome. I

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: think one of the questions that's come up in the committee as we're trying to wonder whether it's even possible for us to craft a policy here is, well, what is the current state of state regulation on this subject? And that's obviously a base question.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: Yep, perfect. So we're prepared to discuss that this morning, and I do just wanna do, I know you said you have an hour and other witnesses on the agenda. So just so we're pacing ourselves appropriately, like fifteen, twenty minutes, is that what was just kind of meant to Yeah. Be Right. The back of our minds open

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: for me. And this committee can't help itself. I'm sure there'll be questions, and I will allow them Sure. With my agreement to interrupt you. And

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: then we did prepare a PowerPoint, which I think Rowan is sharing to the screen behind me. And there might be just additional information here you're interested in that you can just read at your own leisure. So we're trying to keep fifteen to twenty minutes in mind that might be just good reference material, again, about what is the state of things and what is our jurisdiction or ability to enforce this already. So I am going to obviously I shouldn't say obviously, but I am going to defer a lot of this to Dirk, who has a long tenure in this area, to help walk through. But, Rowan, if you want to go to the next slide. These are a few things that we will try to piece ourselves through for the next few minutes. What we can do already under the general duty clause, some proposed federal OSHA rules in this space, what other states are doing, what we're currently doing for outreach and awareness through OSHA and OSHA. We also pulled together some statistics in terms of how many complaints have we received over a six year period that are temperature related that we can share. And then a few further questions that we have as you are talking about this for the committee to consider. So why don't we keep rolling? Derek, are you able to now jump in, chair, and to the chair's main question about what can we do already? You don't necessarily have to walk through the slide, verbalize that.

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: Yes, I can do that. So currently, so back out a little bit, Vermont Occupational Safety and Health is what is known as a state plan, which plan? A state plan OSHA state, meaning that we have a charter or a contract with federal OSHA to administer occupational safety and health law instead of having the federal government do it. And part of that compact is that we agreed that we will enforce safety regulations in the workplace to be at least as effective as federal government, federal OSHA requires. So we basically enforce federal OSHA standards as they are made in a rule through the federal register, federal regulations. Federal OSHA does not have any extreme temperature standard. They have a lot of guidance. We have a lot of guidance on our website, information from employers, common sense information about how to keep your employees safe in extreme temperatures. But there aren't any actual standards with things like temperature cut offs as envisioned by this penalty. So we can, as I think the slide indicates, if there are violations, if employees expose their employees to havoc to the workplace, we can still go in and inspect and enforce under what is known as the general can be clause, which allows us to cite employers for violations, but it's a slightly higher standard because we don't have metrics as they're laid out in the building. You you had a wet bulb temperature of 80 degrees or something like that. What we do is we have to, in order to cite an employer for a violation, we have to show that a there hazard that was likely to cause death or serious bodily injury, that the employer was aware of the hazard, that there was a feasible method of correcting the hazard. So we can, if there is an instance, I'll just throw out an example of somebody telling their employees to get up on the roof when it's 90 degrees out without potable water, without shade available, with the awareness that the employees are hot and experiencing distress, we could cite. And you know, we do investigate complaints of extreme heat or cold, and I think the slide has a breakdown of what we've done over the past six years in terms of receiving those complaints and looking at them.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: I just want to say, or similarly, if we got a complaint, I have hypothermia and I'm not being allowed to go inside and it is negative 10 degrees out, we, within our existing authority, could go out and investigate that and potentially cite if there again was a feasible way that that could have been remediated for the individual.

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: Yes. And I was focusing on heat because that's the majority of our complaints. We have had some complaints about exposure to extreme cold. The majority tend to be about heat.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: So there are some options that I just really want to underscore. We do already have some options to address this when we see egregious instances of workplace safety related to the temperatures that people are exposed to within our existing authority through that general duty clause. It also applies, one of the things too, we tend to, I think, all think about this a lot as an outdoor problem, But this bill and this instance can also apply to indoor environments, which makes the scope of navigating this much greater with different sectors and industries. Think about a really hot kitchen. You're in a restaurant and you're flipping burgers over a grill, those kitchens I don't if any of you guys have worked in one

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: or walked through them but

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: can get awfully hot. So I just want to think about if we were to implement something or, again, all the potential impacts sectors that would be touched by this, it's not just what we all tend to jump to in terms of construction in the summer or outdoor that can be confirmed. Right, Rowan, next slide.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Just for members of the committee, we did receive yesterday, I think, which has just posted a letter from a restaurant kind of raising that issue. It wasn't necessarily opposed to regulation or not, it just raised the issue of restaurants can be very

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Yes? I'm sorry I'm late, but I have a question about, is there a specific person that someone can call when there's complaints?

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: We do have a complaint intake process that

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: We have a VOCA complaint form on our website, we have a PIN number, OSHA complaints, so complaints about workplace hazards, we do take those in all the time. We do give the complainant confidentiality if they're requested. And yes, there is a mechanism to pay That

[Unidentified Committee Member]: information's on one of the required posters in the workplace, whether that's available. There is a required, one of the

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: many required questions. It's a

[Unidentified Committee Member]: big wall, but it's there somewhere.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: But is the poster, somebody, I don't know where we saw an example of a poster, does the poster say anything about heat and cold?

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: I do not believe it's specifically does. Our website does have, I think it's in the slide deck somewhere, does have some information on working, eating coal, and just common sense tips for employers to protect their employees in those environments.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Please go ahead.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: So one of the things we mentioned at the outset is OSHA does have a proposed rule that is pending on this, that if you were to tax legislation, it could potentially preempt or we'd have to figure out how to bring these two kind of strains together if that was to come to pass. And Dirk, do you want to talk a little bit about what is in this OSHA proposal?

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: So there have been pending at the federal level an OSHA rule on extreme temperatures. It is somewhat in limbo right now, but it is very detailed, so to the extent that we passed, where the legislature had passed something like what is in Sophie's draft and where the feds then to adopt a more comprehensive standard, then we would have to, per our agreement with federal OSHA, we'd have to go to rulemaking to amend our standard upward, if you will, to meet that potential federal standard if in fact it wasn't enacted.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Yes. Thank you. What is the likelihood that it will be enacted given that it was proposed on 08/30/2024?

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: I don't There has been, I will say this, the OSHA, federal OSHA website has been somewhat silent on this for the past several months, But it appears to be in mumbo. I don't really know what, I can't give you a probability.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: But if Reed passed something and then in the unlikely event the federal government did, you would, I assume in your own enforcement and rule making, you would enforce the federal standard plus any elements of the state standard that were not contrary to the federal standard.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: Rowan, why we skip the next slide? We can just verbally talk about it a little bit just in the interest of time. When we go to slide six, just the OSHA rule, there's a difference I'm sure you've been hearing about with wet low temperatures versus dry temperatures. So how does humidity factor into this in terms of health and safety on the body? It's typically when it's hot. Here it's humid. We don't necessarily get the cold humidity. South does from time to time. And that can have, again, different stressors on the body and the working condition when you factor in that wet low temperature. And they make special thermometers that measure it. Again, sounds like there's some just general familiarity with that. I don't know if there's anything else you'd add about light bulb monitors or temperatures at this moment. So why don't we keep going? We thought it might just be if you guys had it

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Excuse me, is that prior slide, those numbers, are those that's OSHA. Yes. Guidance. Moment's just guidance.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: I'm looking to confirm that, that's my understanding. Yes.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah, okay. Thank you.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: One of the questions I had going into this is, what have other suits done? I don't know if that was something the committee had already looked at or had legislative counsel or anybody researched. Do other states have extremist temperature bills or thresholds, definitions, triggers, etcetera? So again, the committee this will be in your email on your website. You if you want to read this word for word at your leisure can do that. But there are seven states that have something. They're not all the same. None of them are exactly what's contemplated in this bill. Some just regulate indoor temperatures, some indoor and outdoor. Some have only defined a higher threshold. There's one or two that also have, let me just looking one maybe that has the pooled standard as well. Sorry, tried to read that later as well. But they vary. And so it's a very few states, seven, rather, out of 50 that have done something here to varying degrees. They all look a little different. But if the committee wanted to dig in, just wanted to give you some reference points for what are other states doing in this space. None besides Maryland and the New England region so far.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Can ask you question, Kendall? Yep. Do you know what heavy, moderate, and light means? Is that I might. Where are you looking? Minnesota. Minnesota.

[Tim Shea, Executive Director, Champlain Valley Exposition]: Seven, eighty, and 87. I

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: believe if Robin, our policy director, wants to weigh in, she might be able to answer this question. From which to learn policy, which is the first draft department.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Speak up from?

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: Yes, so this is defined in the Minnesota rules. I don't have the definition off the top of my mind, but it is defined in the rules and you

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: can see it has to do with,

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: there's actually kilocalorie calculations in the actual ones themselves.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Okay, so there is, okay. It's very well defined about what the different ones are, and I'm happy to follow-up the committee on it. I have a Google, but I figured I'd ask if you knew. Thank you. Okay.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: So why don't we move into what have we been seeing here in Vermont? If we go to slide seven. Okay. So between 2020 and 2026, when did we cut this data off, last week? Two weeks ago, last month? Yes, last month. Last month. So between 2020 and February 2026, VOCA in total has received seventeen thirty two complaints of all kinds. And I'll have Dirk once this every day, so jump in if I'm if he needs to redirect anything. Of those seventeen thirty two complaints, again, of all kinds, all industries, all workplace safety concerns we've received, twenty nine have been related to temperature, six were related to cold, and twenty three were people complaining about heat related conditions. Of those twenty nine, nine of those resulted in inspections. And Dirk, why don't you jump in and talk about how we prioritize what gets inspected?

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: Sure, so can see we receive a lot of complaints, we can't respond in person to all of them, so we prioritize them. First of all, we look at is the complaint coming from an employee who was exposed to the alleged hazard. So we prioritize those over somebody just saying like, hey, if I drove by this job site and I saw something that I thought was unsafe. So first and foremost, we're looking, is this an employee who actually exposed exposed to to the the hazard? We then look at the potential severity of the hazard, the specificity of the complaint. In many cases, again, will see that the majority of these did not result in an actual inspection. We will send out what is called a letter of inquiry to the employer saying, know, we received a complaint alleging the following, can you respond? And if the employer doesn't respond, you know, that's a red flag. We follow-up on that. If they respond and the response is vague or evasive, you know, we prioritize that. If the response is credible and complete, we may end the inquiry at that point. If we do inspect, we do what we always do, whether it's a complaint inspection or a programmed inspection, you know, we just send someone to the work site without advance notice. They notify the person in charge who they are, why they are there, what they are there to look at. They ask for permission to inspect. If permission is denied, we can get a warrant. That happens occasionally, not very often. And then the inspection is conducted based on what the compliance officer finds. The inspection may result in a citation that includes monetary.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Yes. So of the seventeen thirty two over a six year period, only nine were inspected?

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: Who all of these temperature related companies?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Of the 29.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: Of the 29 that were related to temperature. Okay,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: it's just being low. And are those temperatures those temperatures listed at the bottom, 99, 95, 93, etcetera, Those are the temperatures that relate to those complaints?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Yes.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yep.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: So for those complaints, the temperatures on those days ranged from as low as negative four up to ninety nine days.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Carl, you might be getting to this. Of the 29, particularly the six, all related ones, how many of those resulted in warnings or citations or actual action?

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: You bring, somebody did the nine investigations, you have the actual citation. Might need to

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: follow-up with that. I can certainly get it and provide it to

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: While you're looking to give him time to look, you ask your question or will Do he have to answer

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: you think it's possible that the reason that there were so few complaints is that there are no regulations that workers could point to in a complaint?

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: We're not comfortable forecasting that these range over different sectors, indooroutdoor, and some just not. I mean, each one of those is gonna be very I don't know to speak on behalf of how people prioritize that outreach.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Another way I'd like to pile on with that question, is there one type of complaint that's the bulk?

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: Of all the complaints. Yeah,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: all of them. The 1,700. I

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: can't really say with any I can say that because this particular slice goes back to 2020, we did have a spike of COVID related complaints in 2020 and 2021. So that is something that you know in normal times you would not And my wonderful program manager just provided me the answer to a previous question, which is that of the total actual inspections of 29, which were 49, three of them resulted in monetary penalties, two of which were for hold exposure and one of which was for

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: So again, just want to, depending on where this goes, we do have some mechanisms now that we can be using to address this situation that have resulted in penalty citations, etc. Debbie?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Okay, so if you have to go investigate a kitchen because it's too hot, do you bring the health inspector with you also, or are you just looking

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: at Basically, we're just looking at heat. If we get there and let's say there's rats everywhere, we might then refer out to the Department of Health who does the health inspection and the health inspection code. If we get there and we see something really egregious, fire safety health related, we might phone a friend. But no, we stay with it typically within this what we were called out to look at, and this is why we're here.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So it's a complaint based system, right? I mean, but you don't go out on your own. Yes, we do. You do.

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: So there's roughly three types of VOCA responses. There's responses to complaints. The majority of VOCA inspections are programmed inspections. And there's metrics that I, there's a formula that I can't adequately describe whereby we do things like pull what are known as Dodge reports that show construction activity. We try and make sure we get to every industry session so that we're not just focusing on one particular industry, but our inspectors are given periodically a list of inspections to do and it is up to them to, you know, plan them, schedule them, and that is done in advance in an effort to get our people out across all industries, all sectors. So I think the majority of inspections are program inspections. And then of course we respond to fatalities or serious injuries in the workforce.

[Tim Shea, Executive Director, Champlain Valley Exposition]: Just

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: quickly, did you already say what industries you tend to see

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: the majority of complaints, top three?

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: Don't have that information in front of me. We do have it. Again, I can provide the committee with that.

[Molly Mahar, President, Ski Vermont]: So nothing jumps out like, oh it's mostly construction,

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: or it's mostly kitchens, or it's mostly out of what I'm seeing.

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: No, it's all but I can, you know, we do have a list that we can pull of, you know, the 10 most common violations, 10 most common cited hazards. And I can provide that to the community.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Thank you. Not a question, just anecdotally. You guys do great work. I was in a situation where I had a disgruntled ex employee who was terminated, turned around, and filed a false OSHA complaint, which will have happened. And even though it was very clear that it was a false complaint, OSHA took the time, did the full investigation and took it seriously. So I just commend the program for its work and really giving employees a voice and making sure that their complaints are heard.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thomas? Yeah, I would be particularly interested in the 29, since we're talking about 29 complaints broken down by industry.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah, that would be very helpful. Thank you. Go ahead.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: All right. I know, I'd say, I know we're probably eating up some time here. The next slide that we were prepared to talk about, but let me know what the committee said, if you're not, so many of other witnesses, is what does OSHA look at versus workers' comp versus the passenger family board, since that has been a question and one of the ones we've got the committee requested to hear about. But again, I'm not sure that goes to the heart

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: of your conversation today. Well, have this now, and I know I'll read it. Okay, all right.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: And then, Rowan, slides nine and ten, we just tried to pull just a couple examples of what is the current kind of information that's provided through OSHA and through federal OSHA to employers, depending on which entity you're connecting with and where you'd like to consume information. I can tell you, I'm on all sorts of USDA Well's daily email list, including OSHA. And during the summer, I get from federal OSHA daily of heat, temperature, best practices, did you know, stay cool out there type of email blast. And so I couldn't tell you how many Vermont employers get daily OSHA email pings or want them, But this information does go out to those that want to pursue it and understand how they can begin their day and workplace safety. So again, these are just, again, some examples of what OSHA has available for employers or for really anybody. Slide 10 is an example of something we have on our direct website at the Vermont Department of Labor around recognizing the signs of heat exhaustion versus heat stroke. There is a difference between exhaustive heat, I'm going to say episodes versus actual heat stroke, where it depends on the level of your physical activity, again, that wet globe temperature where you can have heat exhaustion versus heat stroke, depending on what you're doing. So it does get a little nuance there. But again, just wanted to give you some examples of what do we already have out for collateral. Similarly, our OSHA program does a lot of outreach and education. We, this year, are doing quarterly webinars that we plan. It's been one of our priorities moving forward to pick up and do even more of in the future. And if we see that this is an area of interest or we have information that this is a systemic problem, where again, I feel like what we're seeing is a lot of antidote, we would be happy to work this into a webinar for employers that we do in terms of our proactive outreach campaigns around how to keep your employees safe during extreme brisk temperatures. What are those best practices around having cooling stations, around hydration, similarly warming if you're working at a cold temperature, etcetera? I do know, again, they're not on the witness list for today, but the committee might be also interested in talking to the agency of transportation or building and general services around what the practices are already for our state employees and others that we work with to make sure, again, they are properly supported during really hot days or really cold days outside. And then the last thing, I guess maybe we can end off on other questions, our discussion where when we were looking at the existing bill and trying to kind of get up to speed on the conversation so far, some questions we had that we would, if this was to come to pass and we had to implement it, that we would want to better understand. Things like who logs at thermometer readings, how often and where would that be required in the bill for employers? If OSHA receives a complaint, how do we establish what the temperature actually was when the complaint was made versus what time they show up? There's some mornings we start off and it's 30 degrees, and then by the end of the day, it's 60 degrees. There's days in the summer where it's a nice cool 75 all day long and then three to five, the sun comes out and then it's like 90 degrees from three to 6PM and then it cools off again. Same thing in the winter. The wind chill picks up for a couple hours afternoon, but the morning was lovely. So in terms of how we could feel confident in establishing what that temperature was in the workspace, or if you're indoors, AC kicks on, kicks off, he kicks off, what was it at the time the complaint was made? We've been grappling with large outsourcing in terms of what would be required there, how we would implement, what we would want to do. So for mobile work sites, like logging, road crews, farms, where do we place these thermometers? And then heavy machinery like tractors, ATVs, skidders with enclosed tabs, not all of them have AC in them. And so is that what you're mandating here? Is that for the farming industry, all their tractors, if they have employees, have to have AC in them. Where does that go? It's just a question. I'm not coming in with a recommendation, but I think that would be complicated and we want to understand what the intent is. Open sided bars, greenhouses, farm stands, ski lodges, where the doors are open. Is that an indoor space, an outdoor space? How or are we regulating those areas? Be something else our motion team would be wrestling with if we got a complaint in, again, the barn. You're going into a barn, you're going to a farm event, it's wide open, the

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: barn is wide open.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: Is that now inside, outside? If we're having nuance there, how are we managing that? The fifteen minute exemption is that continuous or continuous. So, is it I was outside once for fifteen minutes, or I went outside for five minutes, then another five minutes, and then another five minutes, if we get complaints in that regard, what exactly is meant in that portion of the language. Right now, for OSHA, we, like Dirk was saying earlier, if we get a very serious, we hear a very serious accident, a very serious complaint, fatal, very serious injury, we will respond day of and immediately. However, if they are less serious, not from the employee themselves, we typically respond within five business days. So is this something where you want us responding day of? Somebody calls us, it's 97 degrees outside and I haven't been allowed to take a break for three hours, but nobody's saying that they're sick or having heat stroke at the moment. Do you want us there that day? If you do, we're definitely going to need more resources and capacity. Or is that something that we, again, could follow-up on as we have time within that five business day range? And then I just had some other questions around additional costs to the state government as an employer. Around we would have to similarly put these wet globe thermometers and these other requirements in all of our state buildings and state work sites. I have not attempted to cross that out. That really is more of a building and general services function that I would rely on them to advise us on, but there might be some cost to state government as an employer to come into compliance depending on what the details of the bill include.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Any final questions? Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[Kendall Smith, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Labor]: We'll follow-up and we're available. I have to leave and direct testimony so we won't be able to sit in, but you know where to find us.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: We do. Thank Thank you. You both. Brian? Yeah. I'm alive. Thank you. Ready for me? Almost. One minute. Brian, introduce yourself and take it away.

[Brian Maggiotto, Executive Director, Vermont Lodging Association]: Thank you very much, Chair. My name is Brian Maggiotto. I'm the executive director of the Vermont Lodging Association. Along with my wife, I'm also the owner operator of the In It Manchester in Manchester, Vermont. And although Rowan's just left the the room, I do wanna, you know, commend the Department of Labor and their their observance and adherence to OSHA policies. I think for for many within the hospitality industry, these have been a great guiding force in how we create our own policies and best practices to ensure both the health and safety of our employees, but also that of our guests and patrons. And we think about the tourism and hospitality industry, we are talking about a very broad stroke component within the state's economic ecosystem, that represents upwards of 30,000 employees within that space, but also services close to 16,000,000 visitors each year. So it's incredibly crucial that when we think about legislation, we are weighing the indirect and direct impacts of these types of policies or acts and how they can effectively determine the success of many aspects of our state's experience businesses. When I looked at some of these states that were being referenced with existing policies, it stood out to me that agriculture was coming up a lot, construction was coming up a lot, but not necessarily the hospitality space. And as I understand it, you did receive testimony from the single pebble in Burlington, which I believe was referenced earlier. And that's just one facet amongst the entire, you know, hospitality space, but an incredibly significant ones with many limitations along the way. I believe they referenced just the hood vent alone and how adding an AC unit paired with an incredibly strong hood vent system inherently can be a problem. So having the existing infrastructure, the existing language as presented by VOCA, as I said, has been incredibly important as a structural framework for how many businesses have operated successfully and with the best intent for their employees. And I just really wanna recommend that as you continue on this path, the questions that were raised by the Department of Labor in Rowan are really, really significant ones. There is a version of this where best practices that exist should continue, whether or not the thresholds, you know, which as we know in Vermont seem almost challenging and that we want it to be 80 degrees or higher, so people desire to explore our waterways and to our natural beauty, and we need it to be colder than 35, 36 degrees so that our winter season is able to sustain itself over a four to five month period. And that this is what brings our temporary taxpayers to come discover Vermont, celebrate Vermont, etcetera. And that with those best practices, we are able to safely operate at our resort properties and to create as robust an experience palette as possible for people to come and discover our natural beauty and our natural resources, both what is man made along with what we've been given here in the Green Mountains. So while I do appreciate that there have been some unfortunate instances at, I believe, one ski resort or two that made the paper, best practices and OSHA and OSHA policies are and have been a standard by which we operate off of and on, and we will continue to do so. Hearing that there is some federal discussion happening around additional language to be applied is encouraging, and it lets us know that there is a broader professional dialogue happening that will only continue to protect our employee base, as well as the patrons and guests that come to enjoy Vermont and other places around the country within the recreation and hospitality space. For us personally at the Inn at Manchester, our natural beauty is everything. And our guests come here both to have a curated experience, whether it's a guided tour, paddling experience, fly fishing, etcetera, which requires us to be outside for prolonged prolonged periods of time. And while, you know, the the canopy may offer some shade, there's desire to stand in a river at 90 degrees on a beautiful day and enjoy, you know, casting a line, etcetera. And we're gonna find that there are continually more and more limitations if we over regulate and create or look for problems in search of a create solutions in search of a problem. So I really do appreciate us having the conversation, looking at these thresholds, considering language in the benefit of our employees, but would challenge and stress the committee to make sure we're looking at it from every angle and what the impacts could potentially be of overregulation in this space.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Brian, just a quick question. When you talk about best practices, are you referring to whatever VOCA has done, or is there a separate recommendation of best practices put out by your organization concerning the hospitality industry, or is it

[Brian Maggiotto, Executive Director, Vermont Lodging Association]: So VOCA is the foundation, even the Department of Labor referencing the posters, that's the framework for everything. At the property or experience level, We have long taken pride in providing the necessary infrastructure for our staff to be able to perform their jobs to their fullest, whether that's the PPE component, appropriate outerwear within the kitchens that does become a little bit more challenging, I'd imagine, depending on where they are, how they're operating, etcetera. But yes, the VOCA is the foundation by which we set up our own policies and best practices.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Thank you. Questions by the committee.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes. Go ahead, Tom. Thanks for spending some time with us. Appreciate it. Would you characterize the best practices and the approach that OSHA currently has as adequate or would you identify something to change?

[Brian Maggiotto, Executive Director, Vermont Lodging Association]: In the hospitality space, I believe they are a great foundation for us to work off of and would render them adequate as currently written. Knowing that there is additional investigation or dialogue happening at the federal level, I would once again recommend that we follow suit and watch what's happening at the higher level to ensure that compliance is as efficiently streamlined as possible if new determinations are made for either higher thresholds or more specific parameters within the extreme temperature guidelines.

[Tim Shea, Executive Director, Champlain Valley Exposition]: Thank you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Any other questions? Brian, a thousand thank yous.

[Brian Maggiotto, Executive Director, Vermont Lodging Association]: Thank you very much.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Take care. Appreciate you taking the time to be with us.

[Brian Maggiotto, Executive Director, Vermont Lodging Association]: My my pleasure.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Do we have here Molly? Molly, come on up. Hi. Tell us who you are and we will, I neglected to do this before, tell you who we are. Sure.

[Molly Mahar, President, Ski Vermont]: Good morning. I'm Molly Mahar. I'm president of Spieber Mundt. And I just want to thank the chair and the committee for having me in this morning to speak on another contemplated language that you may have to ask 02:30. Great, thank you. Why don't we just quickly go around? Debbie, you wanna start? Yes, I'm Debbie Dolgin. I represent St. Johnsbury Caledonia,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Chestercraft. Joe Parsons, Newbury Topsum and Croton.

[Leonora Dodge (Member)]: Leonora Digesticks Town to Wessex Junction.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I'm off. Ashley Bartley, Fairfax, Georgia. Marc Mihaly and Plainfield, Marshfield and Caledonia.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Emily Krasnow, South Burlington. Hi, I'm Elizabeth Burrows. I represent Windsor 1, which is Heartland, West Windsor and Windsor. Good morning, I'm Mary E. Howard, and I represent Rutland City District 6.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: Good morning, Gayle Pezzo, Chittenden Twain, Old Chester.

[Molly Mahar, President, Ski Vermont]: Great, thank you very much.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Thank you to Wayne Marley.

[Molly Mahar, President, Ski Vermont]: Okay, I too would like to commend VOCHO for their work and their resources. For employers, we've done webinars with VOCHO with our membership in the past, we plan to do more of those. They are a great resource. So just very quickly, Ski Vermont is a nonprofit trade association for the state's alpine and cross country ski areas. Our members range from volunteer run community areas up to the state's largest resorts. And the industry is an important economic driver for Vermont, particularly in rural parts of the state. And the visits generated by ski areas enable other businesses to operate year round and offer year round jobs in their communities. Ski areas deliver recreational experiences and their business depends on and thrives on weather. Ski area employees choose to work and often recreate in the natural environment at ski areas knowing about and often embracing winter conditions. Ski areas also have many indoor jobs as well. Working in winter conditions, which is routine at ski areas, requires them to have strong safety cultures. Employee and guest safety is top priority. Healthy and safe employees are essential to a productive workforce and they create the unique communities that make our ski areas and our mountain destinations special and keep our guests coming back. Additionally, like many other businesses, ski areas operate in a competitive hiring environment and that makes retention of staff critical for them. As one of our members recently said, if you don't take good care of your staff, you won't have them for long. And without employees, our ski areas can't run. Ski areas and all employers already have a responsibility under the general duty clause as the DOL folks were talking about of the Occupational Safety and Health Act to proactively identify and address workplace hazards, even if those hazards are not specifically covered by a standard. So even though OSHA does not have a specific standard for working in cold environments, they do have cold stress guidance and employers must still provide workers with a place of employment that is free from those hazards, including cold weather related hazards. And so here are some of the ways that ski areas do this. And not all ski areas do everything exactly the same. But I compiled this after speaking with a number of our members, and this represents what's customarily done. Training and preparation for work. During the hiring process, job candidates are informed about the working environment conditions and physical demands of the role before they are offered or accept a position. Employee training includes the importance of and how to properly dress for cold weather to avoid hypothermia and frostbite by layering clothing, avoiding cotton layers, maintaining dry clothing, having extra layers, socks and gloves if needed, and covering exposed skin. They're trained to recognize the signs of frostbite, hypothermia, and other cold related illnesses and on appropriate work rotations and warm up break schedules to minimize exposure. Employees are also instructed to contact their supervisors, area dispatch, or ski patrol immediately if they or a coworker experience unsafe cold conditions, symptoms of cold illness or injury, or any illness or injury. Employees have access to a phone or radio to contact their supervisor, dispatch, or ski patrol. And ski patrollers are medical personnel who are on-site every day at a ski area when they're operational and even when they're, it may not be every

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: day when they're not operational, but

[Molly Mahar, President, Ski Vermont]: they're trained to respond to cold related and other emergencies for employees and guests. Employee training is reinforced throughout the season through regular safety meetings, daily staff updates, and this can proactively cover anticipated adverse weather conditions, emphasize what staff should be planning for and thinking about, like eating a good breakfast, staying hydrated and having extra layers with them. Staff are provided with proper uniform garments for winter weather conditions, which can include an insulated jacket or an insulated layer and a waterproof shell, insulated snow pants, insulated vest, winter hat. Some areas provide gloves and employees can often access deeply discounted high quality boots, gloves, insulating layers and socks. And many areas also provide hand and toe warmers for staff during every shift. Operational considerations and adjustments. Sea area operations are driven by the weather, so dynamic weather conditions are factored into an area's operational plan on a daily and sometimes hourly basis. This extends to planning and adjusting operations when colder than normal weather conditions are forecast. Plans can be site specific, job specific, and dependent on many variables. For instance, 32 degrees calm and sunny feels a lot different than 32 degrees with a 30 mile per hour wind blowing and snowfall. The activity level of a job makes a difference as well. If an employee is loading chairs on a fixed grip lift, they will be moving more than an employee directing cars in a parking lot, for example. And when weather conditions dictate, operating plans prioritize adjustments for the special weather conditions such as extreme cold temperatures over maintenance of normal daily operations. For example, on extremely cold days, and we've had a number of those this winter season, Operational areas may be consolidated and some lifts closed. And we saw a number of areas do that this summer, excuse me, this winter. Staff from closed lifts, speed patrol stations are then redeployed to operating lifts and open areas to fortify staffing levels and allow for frequent rotation and warm up breaks to limit staff exposure to extreme cold. Additional staff may also be scheduled or redeployed from other departments when appropriate, and this is why cross training is very important. Operational adjustments like this help to ensure employee safety while maintaining operational effectiveness during periods of extreme cold. We can also look at some data points and I have some data points similar to what DOL spoke about earlier. And this was according to BT Digger story that was published March 10. So between 2020 and 2026, VOCA received 18 total complaints from ski industry employees about various issues. Some of those were COVID related as Mr. Anderson was saying earlier. And over the six year period, as they said, there were seventeen thirty two total complaints from employees across all industries in the state. So that means that ski industry complaints were 0.01% of all the complaints filed during that time period. Three of the 18 complaints from ski area employees over that six year period were related to workplace temperatures. And one of the three temperature related complaints was investigated by BOSA, which found the complaint to be unfounded and the ski area to be in compliance. And each winter, I do wanna note, the ski industry in Vermont employs nearly 7,000 people. So that's 7,000 people every year. So that's three weather related complaints out of 18 total over a six year period from an industry that employs close to 7,000 people each year or each winter. So those numbers suggest that ski areas are successful following existing standards and requirements and paying close attention to their employees' health and safety. Ski areas and all employers already have a significant federal standard to meet. So we do not support an additional standard at the state level. Vermont ski areas follow existing law and already have practices in place, including training, providing engineering controls, proper outfitting and using safe work practices, making operational adjustments when weather conditions dictate to protect their employees from the impacts of extreme temperatures. Plans and procedures differ among jobs and locations at ski areas. And when we look more broadly at different industries, that variability only expands. Our organization and our members annually recognize employees who have twenty five years or more of service at a single ski area. Over the past seven years, we've celebrated 19 employees who have worked outside at ski areas for decades in lift operations, snowmaking, lift maintenance, ski patrol, and ski school, and many others in the years prior. And I don't believe that this would be possible if ski areas weren't proactive and highly invested in their employees' health, safety and well-being. And I do wanna make a note that we do have operations during the summer months as well, and we do train about heat related stress and injuries as well. Just to wrap up, the health and safety of ski area employees is not optional. It's a critical part of their everyday operations because it's important that employees go home healthy and full every night. And without healthy employees, our ski areas simply cannot operate. So this concludes my testimony. I'm happy to try to answer any questions.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Elizabeth.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Thank you. I wondered if you could tell me approximately what percentage of ski area employees who work outside are unionized?

[Molly Mahar, President, Ski Vermont]: None in the state of Vermont.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Are using

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: members of unions? Oh, members

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: of unions, that's right, yeah. Thank you. Other questions?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Yes, we might be off topic, but I was just wondering, I know skieries in the past have used work visas, I'm gonna call them, Is that still a practice?

[Molly Mahar, President, Ski Vermont]: We do need to supplement our workforce, although staffing has been getting easier in the past few years. Was, I think, the worst right after COVID and has steadily been getting better. But yes, we do still. Thank

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: you. We have potentially another witness, and I think we have time. Tim, are you here? Yes. Molly, thank you very much for coming.

[Molly Mahar, President, Ski Vermont]: Thank you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: And we know how to find if you have questions.

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: Yes.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Tim was not listed here, but voluntarily came, spent a little time, so Tim introduced himself.

[Tim Shea, Executive Director, Champlain Valley Exposition]: Thank you. Tim Shea, I'm the executive Director of the Champlain Valley Exposition in Essex Junction, Vermont. Thank you, I know the committee's busy. I'm also a member of the Vermont Fair and Field Days Association, and while we have not taken a formal position on this, I can speak from our perspective that also the nature of outdoor special events, we're in the business of setting up, tearing down, setting up and tearing down. The fairs are as a ten day event, some Vermont fairs are as few as three or four days. Mostly all fairs have volunteered leadership, they may have paid staff, but the nature of the event business, trying to comply to some of these standards could be a real challenge because of the nature of moving it up. We're a 130 acre campus. You may be familiar with the Shambling Valley Fair for ten days, but we do board shows, four H events sprinkled all around our campus, so again, happening at different times of the season, different parts of the campus. They do a tremendous job clarifying the employees and our volunteers for the office reasons. Weather changes tremendously throughout the events, and we're very mindful of that. Just want to be careful of setting standards that may be nearly impossible for some of the fairs to, because of the nature of the finances of the fairs, the staffing resources they have to meet these standards and do a great job already meeting the existing standards. And there's concern about additional ones that could really pose a real challenge to the fair industry. And just the outdoor special event business, again repeating what I said earlier, the nature of it, setting up, tearing down in different parts of the property. Have answered your questions.

[Dirk Anderson, Director of Workers’ Compensation & Safety (VOSHA), Vermont DOL]: Please.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Well, you. And for the record, Tim and I know each other. My husband actually worked with Tim, so I know how well the fair treats their employees. One of the things about the fair is that you work with another organization to bring in your rides. How would you foresee if this bill were to pass as is, how would you foresee kind of implementing those standards when you're using another company who is not local to Vermont?

[Tim Shea, Executive Director, Champlain Valley Exposition]: Great question, yes. So the leading weight company, the Rides, is a subcontractor partner of ours, and they work in a number of different states. And I wanted it to be, they are so mindful of the kind of like the ski industry, Molly's point, without the employees, it would not work. The ride companies know they have to take care of their employees, they do. It's demonstrated year after year working in the time and conditions they are. They're very mindful of whether it comes in during setup or during the fair to be mindful of their employees as well as the fair goers. But it would be a challenge to meet this, again, because the nature of the carnival business, setting up, tearing down, and meeting these standards with globes positioned throughout the midway that changes all the time would be a real challenge.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Questions? By members of the committee. Tim, thank you, this is an eye opener for me. Wait. A hypothetical round number sort of question.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: If you had to put a wet bulb thermometer in every building, your campus, in every identifiable outdoor event area, how many come out? It's just really rough. What are we talking about? Oh,

[Tim Shea, Executive Director, Champlain Valley Exposition]: again, have employees everywhere. Sixty, 70, 80, I mean, we're one hundred and thirty eight years with employees sprinkled throughout. I can't stress enough that communication occurs when you have employees working outdoors between two way radios, watching their safety. We work closely with the weather service when weather comes in, the electricity, within eight miles, we have to get all our employees in. It's a real system in place. So I don't want folks to think that there's not systems in place already to take care of employees. We can't do what we do without them.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: You. Thanks for your time. Thank you very much for taking the time to come. Miriam, should we stay online, or what's your thought? Ten more minutes? Okay, we're going to take a break and come back at 10:15. Please be back, so make it a short break for obvious purposes.