Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Thank you, everyone. Welcome back. It is a Wednesday, 03/11/2026, and this is the committee on general and housing. And we have a bill before us, h five five six,

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: which is a bill Regarding thank you so much for asking. It is a bill in accolating to exemptions to applicability of state minimum wage, and that's it.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. So what we're gonna do is it's a little unusual, but this is the last week before crossover, so everything is unusual. We are going to ask our counsel to do an introduction of the bill rather than the chair of the the author, representative Marc who was on-site.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: He had done the the introduction. Yes.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Oh, he did?

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: So but we haven't had our walk through.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. So Sophie, going to do a walk through. Then we're going to consider a markup after testimony by Josh Hanford whenever he gets here. So let's start.

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Good afternoon. Sophie Sedonia for the office of legislative council. Let me go ahead and share my screen.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Alright. Look who's here. We can actually do this. So Sophie's doing a walk through first, then your test okay. Go ahead.

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I will say that when there was the introduction by the sponsor, there was some confusion as to the bill, Fans have a concern that this was dealing with unemployment insurance on minimum wage. So just to be clear, this bill proposes to exclude members of the legislative body of a municipality from the definition of employee for the purposes of statement of wage and overtime provisions. So as this committee, I'm sure I've heard many times before, the way we we do minimum wage in the state is we have a a a deaf set of definitions in section three eight three, and it it covers it's for employee. What it does is it carves out certain employees, and it says these employees basically are not covered by minimum wage and overtime. So simply what this bill is seeking to do is to make clear that employee means any individual employed or permitted to work by an employer except, and then it would it would exclude members of the legislative body of a municipality. This would actually provide that state law is consistent with federal law because at the federal level, legislators legislative bodies and municipalities are not covered by federal minimum wage and overtime laws. So that's what this is doing is is really just aligning the federal and the state. And and I think people have been operating on the assumption that members of the legislative body of municipalities were not covered, but it wasn't explicit. And so this is just simply making it explicit so it's clear that they're not covered by state minimum minimum wage and maximum hour rules.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I will say having been a member of a legislative body and now being married to a member of a legislative body, it never crossed either of our minds that we would be paid anything. Okay. Well, I think what we ought to do is, Josh, why don't you come up and because and then don't go very far. And then what we'll do is I think Josh is gonna tell us about proposed changes to language, and then we can talk about a markup.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: Great. Josh Hanford, director of intergovernmental relations at the Vermont League of Cities and Towns. This issue has long been something that VLCT hope would be corrected, and it was to our pleasant surprise that this summer, the new attorney at the Vermont Department of Labor was providing a training to, town clerks and treasurers where he was reviewing the Vermont law and the federal law and was, proceeded with a broader question saying, but that's not the case. I don't get minimum wage. I work fifty hours a week. And he was rather rattled by that and came to talk to us, and we said, yes. We've we've been raising this issue. And he said, great. We're gonna introduce some legislation to fix it. We said, excellent. It wasn't until the bill was released that we saw their language, and I immediately reached out to mister Deborah, and said, great. But this misses the real problem. It's not the legislative bodies, the select boards that are asking for this. It's the other elected officials, the town clerk, the treasurers, the the

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: The people who who are salaried,

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: who are or they're not. They're given a small stipend, and they're appointed and they're appointed officials. And it's true that our law doesn't match federal law. Basically, the federal law and our HR attorney that represents us, and works on the insurance side, you know, has some more complicated language that you would suggest. But I think it's fair to say that we would like that to say something as simple as all elected and appointed municipal officials. Because in federal law, my I'm not an attorney. I'm not. But my basic understanding is what the federal law does is it exempts elected officials and their appointed officials from these minimum and overtime. And we need something that matches that. Otherwise, this problem persists. And, you know, I would hate to see us not fix this until there's a very expensive court case, and there have been attempts at that in the past. There's been a few temp clerks or treasurers in various places that have brought this up. The main issue is that the voters of a municipality, they set the budget, which includes what the payment is for the elected and appointed officials. And it varies, and you know what they are before you go go for that election or before you go for that appointment. So this doesn't appear to be controversial. There isn't, any sort of union flip side to this because these folks aren't in a union with their elected and appointed. So, we would love to see this change that we're requesting made and happily support this bill. Without that change, this this really doesn't address where the issue came from. And, I've talked to mister after, and he's apologized that that was missed somehow in the communication, I think, to alleged counsel and so forth. And so happy to rally folks together to back up the the claims I'm making to you if not someone that does this type of work in or an attorney, you know, in in real life. So that's all I have.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Ashley? Can I ask you a question? Yeah. And I'm sorry. I should have asked earlier. So let's use a town clerk as an example. There are some municipalities that are unionized. Correct, Mike?

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Absolutely. They have the ability.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: Lots of municipalities have union workers, but they're not elected. So so appointed. Yes. Not even appointed, from my my understanding. You know, clearly, towns have the the road crew and other workers. But when you're electing a in a position or you're appointing a position, it is an officer of the municipality. It's not a hourly worker, salaried worker that could be represented by a union. It's an elected or appointed position that the voters are deciding whether they provide a stipend, whether they provide they're like, take a delinquent tax collector Yeah. For example. There's probably 15 different ways that a delinquent tax collector gets paid, and none of them would would look back to overtime or minimum wage. Okay. And you have often cases where, you know, the elected official then appoints or seeks appointment by the select board for their, deputy or their you know? So it it it gets confusing in that area. But my understanding is that there's a separation between employees of a municipality that many of them are unionized in this type of elected or appointed officials.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Right. I think that's can a town clerk ever be a hired position? Or is that The

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: town clerk's always elected or appointed.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: You know, like, it gives the duties. Like, a treasurer, you can have an elected or appointed treasurer, but you also can hire an auditor through a contract or through some other you can have an elected or appointed lister, but you could also go on contract with an assessor, which is a private

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Mary. Oh, I don't know if it connects to this or not, but delinquent tax collectors don't think it paid also about a percentage of the tax that

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: are collected. We literally have a chart, because we do we have a delinquent tax collector handbook, and there's a variety of ways Yeah. That a delinquent tax collector can get paid. Some is commission on part of the sale, some as a per fee, some as a stipend. It just it depends on what the voters approve and how it's structured. Ours gets butt kiss.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: It's what? What? What is that? Nothing. Nothing. Nothing? Yeah. Let's walk offline. Oh, wow. Have you never heard the word butt kiss before? No. I think so.

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I have. Is this for mom?

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: Any other

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Are there any other questions about

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Of Josh. Of Josh. Josh, would you remain in the room?

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: Absolutely. Can go in there. And I'll also pop up my computer in case I need anyone to correct anything I said.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Thank you. Sophie is returning. Our counsel is returning. We have so, Sophie, do you have any thoughts in terms of language that would address this issue?

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. This is I mean, certainly, the language that was proposed, that's different than what what was asked in terms of for the bill. I would probably want to I mean, as I understood it, the language was to be switched to all elected and appoint a new municipal officials. I would want to double check with our team just to make sure if there's anything they would flag on that in terms of, you know, what that could raise. But I think having clarity around who's intended to be covered by it is really helpful.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So I think what the committee has to do is direct counsel to make that change and to confirm it and come back to us with what's the timing on your being able to check with the GovOps people?

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, everyone's rushing around. I will I've been let them know ASAP, and I will, you know, get back to you as soon as I get back from them. But, yeah, everyone's super busy, but I I I imagine it's a relatively quick question.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: You weren't looking expected like you wanna say something? No. No? I'm just saying I'm comfortable with that at the moment.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. What I'm thinking is how does the committee feel about asking legislative counsel to make that change or an acceptable equivalent depending on, the information that she gathers and her research and from her, colleagues? I'm seeing nodding from everybody. Everybody's okay with that? Yes. Okay. Sophie, you have so what you should do is do that, produce the next draft, work with Miriam, and we'll get we'll slip you in.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: It's good. Thank you so much. Can I ask the care question? And I'm almost unwilling to say this, but I think I have to. Would this, as we consider process, need to have a drive by the committee?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Why? I'm not sure what what you're thinking. It's not I mean, it's it's a it's has to do with minimum wage, which is ours. Is it because it involves

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Municipalities. Municipalities. But I feel like it's not involving their their process. It's not about Yeah. Just to make sure.

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Don't I don't It's about labor, not about governance.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Right? Okay. Yeah. I don't think so. Yeah. Just wanna make sure. Yeah. Great. I love that answer. Perfect.

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Now it won't keep me up at night.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: You're pretty low through.

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm also not surfing. It's gonna be Alright. Making on the notes.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah. That probably don't. Yeah. Alright. Any other questions on this matter? Josh, what we will do is keep you apprised. Our committee assistant will let you know when this comes up for final discussion and vote. It's got to be in the next day

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: or so. So And, operator, if there's any if it'd be helpful in any way, I could connect the attorneys on our side and then work on this with anyone. It's helpful too.

[Sophie Sedonia (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well, is this language you you you said that is the language that is already being vetted, I assume, on your end?

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I do. I guess I have a question that I just wanna throw out. I don't feel like it has to be answered now. It would seem to me somehow or other the language has to make clear what a point it means. If that's a term of art, we know what that means. In other words, let's say a town hires a member of the road group. K? They vote. They hire. They interview the town select board. Alright? That if it that person is clearly not intended to be covered by this bill, but they're hiring them. I'm assuming, but I don't know for certain, that the word appointed makes clear that a hire is not an appointment. Is that true, Josh?

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: There's process that municipalities have to goes go through to legally appoint someone who meet this statutory requirements.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So it's a statutory term. Great.

[Josh Hanford (Director of Intergovernmental Relations, Vermont League of Cities and Towns)]: Yes. And there's, a list of positions as far back as waiter coal and fence viewer that are the type of positions that

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Fence viewer. Yes. That's new to me. Oh, of course. It's okay. And so that's a term of art. It's a legal term appointed. So using that makes that clear. Okay. Any other questions before we let these good people go? Not that you have anything else to do, but alright. Let us know, and we'll we're really in the final two days. If we have to convene after the floor, not today, but tomorrow or the next day, we will. K? Well, tomorrow.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.