Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Good

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: afternoon, everybody. Welcome to General and Housing. Today is Tuesday, March. We have a and welcome back, everybody, from the break. I hope in addition to town meetings, you all had some moment to relax or else work himself to the bone like a normal job. We've got a pretty full afternoon. First, we're going to hear H-eight 61, which is an act relating to establishing an ADA coordinator for the state. Then, and it's walk through and markup. We'll vote, we have scheduled further discussion and a vote later in the week. Then after a break, we'll take H. Four fifty nine, which is an act relating to the Parental and Family Leave Act as it relates to workers' compensation. And then H. Eight eighty seven, which is an act relating to crime victim status under the Fair Employment Practices Act. And then we're gonna have committee discussion on our priorities for the remainder of the week. And we're gonna start with h eight sixty one. So, Katie, you wanna join us? I remind the committee that this was a short form bill. Katie wisely told us that she could not expand it without discussion and direction from us. We gave her some, I will defer to her whether we gave her enough, and as a result, she's here. Katie, welcome. Thank you. I think you know everybody on the committee. Actually, know what, why don't we introduce ourselves, go ahead.

[Deborah "Debbie" Dolgin (Member)]: I'm representative Deborah Debbie Dolgin, I represent St. John's Brave, Concord and Kirby.

[Joseph Parsons (Member)]: I'm Charles, it's Chester, Craft and then Windham. Joe Parsons, welcome back.

[Leonora Dodge (Member)]: I'm muted, the owner of Dodge, Essex.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Ashley Bartley, Fairfax in Georgia.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Marc Mihaly and I represent Caledonia, Plainfield and Marshfield.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Saudia LaMont, Lamoille Washington District.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Hi, I'm Elizabeth Burrows and I represent Windsor 1, which is Heartland West Windsor Windsor.

[Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: Welcome back. I'm representative Mary E. Howard, I represent Relativity District 6.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Yeah, that's how I represent, checking in 20. Thank

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: you. Welcome back. Hope everybody had a chance to relax. Katie McLennan, Office of Legislative Council. So I did take a short form and I turned it into a standard form bill. I had a bit of conversation with Representative Burrows to help get us to this point in the language we're looking at right now. It's not an incredibly long bill, but it creates the position of the Americans with Disabilities Act coordinator within state government. This position would be created, it's a permanent exempt position, it's being created within the agency of the administration for the purpose of coordinating across state government and in collaboration with agency partners, all state programs, services and activities accessible to and available for individuals with disabilities. There's our purpose statement. Who is this coordinator? I'm suggesting subsection B that the coordinator is an individual with lived experience of a disability and shall have completed a recognized ADA coordinator certificate program. The coordinator shall have comprehensive knowledge of the ADA and Section five zero four of the Rehabilitation Act and any other related federal and state disability rights law. The coordinator shall be familiar with the structured program services and personnel of state government and with alternative communication formats and assistive technologies. Then we have language about hiring this position. In hiring the coordinator position, the Secretary of Administration shall consult with the following entities. I'll have a bit of The a Human Rights Commission, the Office of the Attorney General, HS, AOE,

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Department of

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Health, Gayle, including the Developmental Disability Services Division, Disability Rights Vermont, the Vermont Coalition for Disability Rights, Vermont Legal Aid's Disability Law Project, the Vermont Communication Support Project, the Vermont Association of Business, Industry and Rehabilitation, the Vermont Center for Independent Living, and the Vermont League of Cities and Towns. So those are all folks that the agency of administration would consult with in hiring the ADA coordinator. And then we have the duties at the top of page three for the coordinator position. The coordinator shall serve as the primary contact for individuals with questions discrimination or requests for auxiliary aids or services. Coordinator shall work directly with state agencies and departments to advance, coordinate, and monitor statewide compliance efforts. The coordinator is to serve as the primary contact for accessibility inquiries and requests for auxiliary aids and services. The coordinator is to act as a consultant for state employees, boards, executive, legislative, judicial leadership. The coordinator is to ensure communications with individuals with disability is effective as those without disabilities, giving primary consideration to the individual's preferred method of communication. Coordinators to educate state employees on their legal obligations and disability access requirements. Coordinator is to audit programs, facilities, and activities for ongoing compliance. The coordinator is to oversee self evaluation processes through state government to identify and correct violations. Coordinators to monitor federal required transition plans to ensure pending completion or structural accessibility and improvement. Coordinators to provide federally required public notice of rights under the ADA and provide contact information for a governmental entity's coordinator. Coordinators to develop, publish, and oversee a complaint procedure to provide prompt and equitable resolution of complaints.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: The

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: coordinator is to receive and address complaints and issue written explanations of the state's position. And the coordinator is to maintain collaborative relationships with disability advocacy organizations and stakeholders. Subsection

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: E gets

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Katie, I have a question. Just going back, I might have missed it. Is there anything about coordinator being a a person who looks for grants or coordinates grants? Okay.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Says Section E restricts the coordinator to, well, allows, authorize them to have the administrative, legal, and technical support of the agency of the administration. And then we have an appropriation Gayle

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: has a question, go ahead.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: From pathology. Thank you. You said that it has

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: to be someone who has lived experience. How would the person interviewing them know that they have lived experience if they don't have a disability that's visible? That's a good question. The person might volunteer that information if that

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: is one of the requirements of an application.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yes, Ashley.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: I can probably speak to that. I think in this case, because if this were to pass as is, state statute is saying that there would, I guess, for all intents and purposes, be a business need. And so I would say in the interview process, there could be a question such as like, what is your lived experience? Not necessarily, do you have a disability? My recommendation as someone who works in HR would be, what is your lived experience? Because I think that could mean something very different for a lot of people.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Go ahead.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'm almost at the end. Section two is the appropriate. So this just appropriates one time funding in fiscal year twenty seven, 150,000 appropriated from the general fund to the coordinator position that is being established. I think you're envisioning this as a long term. So you just have to have some consideration of how this would be addressed in the base budget, and then it takes effect July '6.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So it doesn't say one way or the other. It doesn't say one time or a base,

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: it just says Well, this is a one time appropriation. You'd have

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: to work with the appropriation if

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this is a position you want on an ongoing basis. Yes, Ashley. But the language does say it's a permanent position, correct? It does. Okay. It's putting it in statute, not in session. Right. Treats it as a permanent position. And then,

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Right. Because then it could If it doesn't get funded the next time, or it's requiring it to be funded when it's

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: in statute. I've usually seen this dealt with with coordination between the appropriations committee and the policy committee that's trying do this. So often the policy committee who's creating a new initiative will fund it for the year. And then there'll be a conversation with approves that if they want to move forward with this, the concept is an ongoing expense. Thank you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Or they can say it's one time, and we'll see, and the person's hired is unlimited service.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The alternative is you could draft this in the pilot.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: So I was just about you read my mind. I'm not advocating for that, but that is an option for people's bills in this situation as well.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. Questions of Kate by the committee?

[Joseph Parsons (Member)]: Yes, Joe. Would this get rid of the requirement that all state agencies have now of having their ADA coordinator person? I

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: think what you're referring to is federal law that the ADA requires.

[Joseph Parsons (Member)]: So this is clearly separate.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is separate.

[Joseph Parsons (Member)]: All those people would still

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Okay.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I'm sorry. What

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: would be the difference? In the positions? Yeah. Under the ADA, it's specific to employers, a public entity that has 50 or more employees. So that position would be specific to that institution, maybe a department or an office in state government. This position, the way it's drafted is sort of looking more holistically at state government and coordinating across departments. And we can look more closely at the language to really sharpen that if that doesn't come through in the language as it is now.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Help me out, because I'm not that familiar with the ADA. So, the ADA, under the federal ADA, requires that an employer more than 15 employees, etcetera, right? Does it define employer, in other words, couldn't we say, well the employer here is the state of Vermont? In which case?

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I don't have an answer to that off the top

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: of my If I have to fill a dig

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: we could, I'm not saying we should, but if we could under federal law, say the employer is the state of Vermont, then it's conceivable that this position, I'm asking, is it conceivable that this position could in theory replace the need for any agent, specific agency to have its own ADA person?

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: If that assumption were true, what I suspect is that the requirement is more targeted to each department or each office.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: That's certainly the way we've thought about it in the past, yeah. Okay. Other questions? This is your

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: shot. Here

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: she is. Katie, you've gotten off too easy. Thank you. Okay, thank you so much and thank you for this draft. And we have scheduled this, we're taking testimony today, we have scheduled it for further discussion by the committee on Thursday, no, tomorrow at 10:45.

[Joseph Parsons (Member)]: Just to

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: let you know, okay.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I won't be able to be here, but if you marked up the changes,

[Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: you can send them along to me and I can make some.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Alright, thank you.

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Stay for another few minutes. Thank you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: The next witness, Ray. Is Kim here? Are you Kim? Please come and have a seat. Hello?

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Thank you for inviting me today, all on the ADA. Is my

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: voice good? Yeah, please sit down and tell us, just for the record, even though I already said it, tell us your name.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: I am Jane Bright. I have lived in Montpelier for the past thirty five years, and raised my family here. I have three children. And I brought a short slideshow because I am here speaking on lived experience with having a disability, living a life with disability, and there are many other Vermonters that have done the same thing, and what I have learned being in rooms with people with disabilities is we feel stronger when there is everybody in the room, when everybody's allowed in the room, everybody can get in the room, everybody's day allows that to happen, and so if you would humor me, these are personal pictures.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Do you need help connecting? Don't think so. Camera, you're already connected.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: I see, yes, I'm here. It says share on the green button, which I hit, and it says entire screen, so I hit share again. There you go. You're in.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: You're in. Do you see photos? No, you don't have to guess.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: See your whole screen. Alright, we all like seeing pictures of each other's kids. This is Senator Marc Mihaly and my son. This is us in DC advocating with others. This is an annual ADA, every year, still people with disabilities from around the country are in the streets, are homes not nursing homes. This is my son, Saudia LaMont, with an adaptive sailboat when he was younger. Is some of his greatest joy. Is He Tybee fills miles of the beach with the shapes of his wheels. And he can't see them, he just fills a whole, whole beach. It's granite sand, so if there's a Mobi map, those blue maps that you see on beaches, and we have a few of them in Vermont, and you can get out onto the hard packed sink. There's no bump roads, there's no potholes, there's no breaks in the sidewalk, you can just as if you're flying. It is his biggest joy, is to get out to that. There's one of those moving fronts. Again, this is the Vermont Center for Independent Living, I worked there for a period of years, this is his little brother, that's the, he did a heart with a Sharpie on his t shirt, that was his sign. Ashes, they're Batman fans together, Senator Murphy. Mrs. Deborah Lesey, she's one of the directors for BCI for years. Jimmy Chittenden, a national advocate, BCI's current director, Sarah. High school graduation happened here in Montpelier. This was national actions for the Affordable Care Act to keep it from being repealed. This is us in Portland, Maine with other advocates who came in. This was his message. He does street poetry, has a typist, Blue Ridge Mountains, this is a beautiful rain up. This dog, this apartment in North Carolina, loved by his sister. Bohemian phase, and food museum is a national health synthesizer advocating during the COVID times with a muscular dystrophy organization, advocates for all wheels up so that you could get on an airplane again. We tried outsource this because we couldn't afford an $80,000 vehicle. We took out a loan, Ed Peyton, CPR, our good friend and family member, Safakor, was her event, now she's a doctor, a part of our lives. This summer advocating for no shuts to meditate here in his capital. And he did a free comic library. He also serves on several national awards as an advocate himself. So while you just see little old me here in the room, this my world and this is beautiful access. We wanna show, I was like, we gotta show positive things. This is what beautiful access looks like. His ramp is down there for his vehicle. Sorry, it's choppy because of whatever we have going on with Wi Fi. But this is a development in Charlotte, North Carolina. They spent a lot of money with the New England ADA Center to fence assist you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Does he live in in North Carolina?

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Yeah, so he did for eight, nine years. Yes, because he could not achieve affordable, accessible housing in his hometown, or in the state of Hawaii. It does not exist. Sorry, sorry, that's fine. And my daughter. There's me saying I love you. Not for this pivot, mean, I do love you all.

[Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: So

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: happy that day that we had that moment where we could go drink beers at a brewery and eat chips. It was like what we, a moment that we really enjoyed. So I just quickly threw those together so that I could show them to you. Get out of there and stop sharing. Do I do that? Back to Back to Zoom. Oh, it's small. Stop sharing. Yeah, so my screen looks very different. Know you all see that. Thank you. Thanks for the check mental support.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: There we go. Oh,

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Now we're on set. Cool. And yeah, thank you for letting me share that. Thank you for your verbal body. Did send written testimony, and I'm sure if you all have it, that's what I thought I would share, and you can read it, and some go, I get a little excited about the ADA. I did work for the Vermont Center for Independent Living from 2008 until 2015. So VCIL has for decades been the ADA technical assistance and training provider for all of Vermont. Every state has an ADA technical assistance and training provider. We work through the New England ADA Center. So at that time, I was driven for there to be ADA coordination across state government. It was the thing that I pushed my shoulder to. I worked with Sean Wen's office at the time, he was Mr. Lawson, was his head of staff, and we worked together to assign ADA coordinators in all state agencies. So your person here was right that ADA Title II is for state and local government and any entity with, should we say 50 or more employees need to have ADA coordination at that time. The Department of Human Services that deals with state employees, supports state employees, they had an ADA coordinator because ADA Title I is employment. It's all about branding and accommodations. And then they had in fire and safety, they put in the Montaxi, which still exists, to bring people into compliance with building projects. So, we spent time doing that. We leveraged CBDG money, community development block grants, to deal with troublesome pedestrian areas and towns. The twenty fifth anniversary of the EEA in 2015, we launched a website with the Department of Tourism to highlight accessible outdoor recreation areas. We did a lot of work. If I were to stand now the website, David Saggy is still the ADA coordinator. He died, he noticed that. Monumental achievement that did a lot of work in that state. So I'm really glad that you have this bill that you're working on. I know about the ADA only because I needed to know about the ADA. When Ash, my son was four, he was diagnosed with a really heavy medical condition, muscular dystrophy. It has devastated his body over time. He started using a wheelchair when he was eight years old and it changed for life. So I didn't know about muscular dystrophy at all until I needed to know. Didn't know about the ADA until I needed to know. Now I don't, and I love the The thing that I don't love about the ADA and the thing that if you hear anything from me or carries through is the ADA, like most civil rights laws, it is on the shoulders of the person experiencing the discrimination to file the complaint and to hold the systems accountable, the systems that are discriminating against you. And when you live a life, like that was the nice, fun, sunshine y moments. But when you are in crisis and you're learning everything you need to know about muscular dystrophy, you're trying to keep people alive, you're navigating sibling relationships, you're in the crisis. And then you have to figure out how to navigate the Human Rights Commission, then you have to figure out the DOJ. That's a lot. So my big, big, big wish would be for there to be a sustainable way that the state holds itself accountable without waiting to just respond to a complaint or something like that. So you asked about Ash if he lived in North Carolina, he did. He graduated a year early from Alpelier High School in order to live on his own, independently in an apartment, and he did that for many, many years. And he wanted to get out of this town. He was like, this is a bleep that eighty eight's like, mom, they don't care, but don't, he didn't see himself here or see a future here at all. I also have lived experience with filing lawsuits because I had to. I had to. There was no other way for these schools to unlock their accessible entrances and hold field trips in wheelchair accessible places that my son could go to. Like that took three years to get it figured out, long process, we got a beautiful, very long settlement like lists, not money, but things that the schools needed to do to bring themselves into compliance with the ADA. The ADA is a bare minimum compromise law. Some of the activism that you saw there has been going on 60s, 70s, 80s, people were changing themselves to buses in Colorado, People were making a public spectacle of themselves on the Capitol Steps, like rolling up the steps in Washington to get Congress to pass the ADA. It wasn't what people wanted. It wasn't the big ask. It wasn't what people really needed from society, it was like a bare minimum. And so when a state or a municipality is not meeting the bare minimum of human decency and civility, I really believe in Vermont's freedom and unity. Like I believe in these values and balancing individual freedom and community responsibility. And until we have true community responsibility, there's not individual freedom. Get excited because I've lived this. This is really real for me, and just writing this stuff, I'm just shaking. It's like, and it's been years since I've really done a lot of work here. We did leave, went to North Carolina and did that, came back to the house and raised the kids, my son had to come back recently because his body is just, it just needs a level of care that Medicaid funded home health aids can't. So our days are really about keeping him alive. Like I'm here now, he's at home on a respirator in pain, like a world of pain. He's like, mom, you just have to go to bed, you have to go down here. But in order for us to just get up, do the things that need to be done so that he's eating and breathing and moving, and then to go outside and try to access a hospital, a store, the state house, he wanted to come today. He's not in the place that he could do that. But on top of all that, then there's that. It's like, we need every neighbor, we need every other customer in a store, every business owner doing just a little more of something, so that it's not just, oh, we have this problem, now we're trying to navigate. And so, my ask of you is really to consider the humanity in this, the humans in it, and go above, like the humans, people with disabilities that are living these lives, go above their minimum compliance. Yes, the state needs an ADA coordinator. Yes, they need to do what the ADA that was passed thirty six years ago says that we all need to do. But above that, we need to have people with lived experience in the room. They need to be at decision making tables. So ask of you as human beings, like anywhere that you are in the world, in a dining room restaurant, at a table where decisions are being made, in a conference room, please make a practice of noticing who's in the room and who's not in the room and then finding a way to get them in the room and then listen to them truly and elevate them. So if you have a personal experience, as you all were talking earlier, in that ADA coordinator position, you're on the right track. But you also need to have them chairing committees, working in state government, working as pages, and it's really just asking the question, you know, don't we have any students with autism that want to serve as a page? Don't we have anybody whatever place it is, where I'm going with this? Because without that beautiful, like people with autism have a whole another way of seeing the world, seeing another path forward rather than the same paths we've all been on. If you've got somebody with lived experience navigating a world that wasn't designed and built for them, you've got a whole other level of expertise. And I think that's where we can all do better. And now I feel like I'm teaching you because

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: I know all in all. You. But do you

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: have questions for me Not a question, but I mean, I just can't thank you enough for coming and sharing your experiences and your family's life with us. Everything you said was so important and powerful and meaningful and true. I mean So, like, I grew up My mom was a disability rights advocate and worked in special ed for forty five years. And when she passed away, that was one of my whys for why I ran for office, to continue the work. So I was raised where we always thought about those things. So I was aware of it, and not everyone did. And my family helped. I don't know if you've been to the Oak Budge for All festival Playground. So we helped build that up and Yeah. Some other things. So it's just been something in my life that's so important. And then when I got to the State House, I really every day, I look around and see the inequities here in the building, in the people who serve, in all of those things, and just believe that in our world that if it doesn't work for everyone, it's not working. And this building is an example of that in our lives a lot. And so I just really appreciate you coming in and sharing

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: your stories and your life with us. Thank you. Welcome. And I would say, every time you see inequities or you see something, we have a tendency to be like, Oh, darn it, we didn't do that, or this is embarrassing. But there are opportunities. Just like anytime you feel that tightness in yourself, you're like, oh, that's the work I have to do to kind of ease that bias or erase that or ask more questions to learn more. Like all of those things are opportunities to bring more people in the room.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: No, that's really helpful. And, oh, and I forgot too, our committee also is housing. So, like you mentioned in your story, it's an example of where both those things didn't work for your family and why you had to leave or felt, right? True to

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Anyway, not so So anything, anything that is important to any human being, housing, transportation, money, any of that, for a person with this disability to access that, it's way more complicated and difficult. Gayle? Yes.

[Gayle Pezzo (Member)]: So I was wondering what state do you

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: feel Vermont could replicate? In

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: other words, is there a state, one of the 50 states, is there a state that you think is doing a really great job?

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Right, and so there's many different things to that, right? So a lot of my, what you see with me is wheeled access, right? Which is that type of thing. So states that do really well for that are older states. Politically, they might not be quite aligned, but Florida. Minnesota does a really great job with for group housing and for adults with disabilities living on their own. You have to expand Medicaid, So states that expand Medicaid, because a lot of people rely on caregivers to get them up, help them transfer in and out of bed and those types of things that are funded by Medicaid by the CATSDA program. And so any place that has that robust program. So if you talk to somebody with Duchenne muscular dystrophy or somebody with cerebral palsy or somebody with Down syndrome, they're gonna have different needs and they're going to all speak with themselves to figure out which state has the best path forward for their adult children. So there are many people like me in Vermont that are caring for their adult children, and they know they're gonna pass before their adult children, and we're terrified about what is gonna happen. If there's not interdependent housing, where the healthcare providers who are making very low Medicaid wages have what they need in order to shop for the job, in order for the people that need those services to be able to have those needs met. And so it depends on what you're looking When I was in Hawaii, I'm gonna say 1996, in Hawaii it is so geared for the elderly and the disabled. So I was looking up to see what states, and if you look that up and then Google it, almost every state is saying the same thing except for California. So California says that they not only adhere to federal Americans with disability standards but often exceeds them through the stricter Fair Employment and Housing Act. Yeah, so the birth of the disability rights movement was in Berkeley, California, when Ed Roberts went with his iron law to Berkeley. It's like, I'm here, I'm college. So yes, California is further ahead, but it's different. Depending on if you're talking about pedestrian access, you're talking about one service or another. Other questions? Can

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: you talk a little bit more about when you worked at Center for Independent Living, and what your role, what specifically was there versus

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Yes, what they so, do like I mentioned, there are ADA technical assistance and training providers in every state. And so VCIL, which is a disability rights organization, has been around since the 70s and is led by people with disabilities. Held and still hold and have for decades held that grant. And so it is a to provide training through the New England ADA Center, so all New England states go through that. Yes, So yeah, we did a lot of training. We did a ton of training.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Mary. Mary, sorry.

[Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: First of all, I want to thank you so much for your testimony. It is so important to hear from people who are actually living through this situation. I know that, for example, my husband was sick and was in a wheelchair. It was challenging for us. Yes, you've got it. Using restroom before they had some places had family restrooms was a challenge.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Middlebury College is the best out in The States. But

[Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: yeah, unless I had somebody with me standing outside the people, I'd leave And the finally, said to my husband, I'm going into the ladies room because they're much more understanding. No offense to the male treatment. It's just the truth. It is the truth. My nephew, he's a muscular dystrophy, really bright, bright person, was amazing, great personality. I'm sorry that your son wasn't able to come today. We would have liked to have met him. Please keep up your good work and hopefully we can pass this bill. As Elizabeth said, there are a number of places in this building that need

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: readjusting. Well, even after you pass the bill, just keep talking with one another about this issue whenever you see it, even if you're shy about it

[Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: in your voice. Thank you so much.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Elizabeth wasn't finished, so I'll let you know. You had more about the BCIL. I did. I attended this

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: presentation by the Dartmouth Policy shop this morning, which is about accessible housing. What's that? Yeah, it was really, that's what the study is, about accessible housing in the Upper Valley. Yes. And one thing I got from that presentation was one of their recommendations was to, mean, had not researched what we do and don't have in Vermont. So setting that aside, one of their recommendations was to fund grants through VCIL. And I thought, yeah. So I thought to myself, we already have some grants through BHIP. They're not actually functional, but This would have been a great opportunity for an ADA coordinator to be able to take a step back because I really feel like they could have said, oh, that VHIP program and what VCIL does or Gayle does would knit together really perfectly instead of having separate parallel universes trying to do the same thing. Being coordinated in one respect by people who don't know what the need actually is and being handled in another respect by people who don't have the funding. And we in our committee didn't necessarily fully internalize that that was taking place. You Do follow what I mean? Like an ADA coordinator could have said, who put these together and there's that problem solved and that problem actually solved. And so the money that we actually would have saved and the actual efficacy of some of these initiatives would have really been a lot faster and a lot more accessible, for lack of a better word.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Right, so yeah, if you have an ADA coordinator at that level, that that's their full on position, it's not just a piece of what their job responsibilities are, then they have the time to help leverage different funding sources. I would encourage people to not think of funding access with your questions. That's not a charitable thing. It is a requirement. It's what we as a country voted on about this is the lowest bar that we have in civil society for how we include people with disabilities, like in everyday life. ADA accommodation should be a part of all budgeting. There should be a line item for accommodation requests, period. Infrastructure and all those other things. Yes, there are some grants that are available. VCIL has home access grants for individual homes. They have this grant that provides technical assistance and training. They have stuff directly for people with disabilities, but they don't have a ginormous budget that they're just gonna be like, let's build new housing, you know, like that. But they can collaborate and you can leverage different pots of money that exist already.

[Saudia LaMont (Member)]: Saudia? Thank you. Thank you for coming and sharing your wealth of knowledge and expertise. I sincerely appreciate it. In the spirit of that, I just wanted to ask a question. I know you've had some experience with, in being in the role, in providing the compliance to the coordinators and all of those things. And so, or the training for them

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: to be. We wouldn't, as

[Saudia LaMont (Member)]: we talk about this role, we get you, while we got you in the seat, if gonna be discussing it as a committee tomorrow, I just want to add, because I think what we were hearing earlier as we were reading through the walkthrough is that this is not necessary because it's already a requirement, or there are already people in these roles. And I just wanted to exactly see it. I just wonder if you could just speak from your experience as someone who has been doing this work and has a wealth of knowledge, the separation of the roles that currently exist and why this is necessary because those are not meeting the need. Does that make sense?

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Right. So I would say that it has been ten years since I worked for VCIL and did all that. I went to trainings all over the country all the time, I still have it, I still understand it fully, but I have not been a player or having these conversations for the past handful of years in Vermont, right? I would say that the benefit of this bill, of having an ADA coordinator, that that is their full time job, I see many, many opportunities in that. Whether they're paying attention to funding sources or building relationships with all of the entities that you listed so that they really have a sense of what is actually needed more than, I don't know what that is, I don't have my finger on that pulse. Sara Londervill from the Vermont Center for Independent Living would, the deputy director is Peter Johnke, but either one of them could speak to that. Sarah Moore, she's been the director for many years. Think you have someone from DCDR.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yes,

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: thank you.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Any other questions? I was

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: like, I wanna know, like, the ADA compliant way to put toilet paper

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Sorry about that for another time.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: My

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: name is Meg Hartman. I'm the Executive Director and General Counsel at the State of the American Rights Commission. I use they have pronouns Speaking to you today in my official capacity, but also I'll share with you that I am also a person who had experienced multiple So invisible I'm really grateful for the opportunity to come and speak to you about this important bill. It's truly shocking that there's not currently an ADA coordinator that is coordinating statewide compliance with the ADA. And so we see this as a step in the right direction. Just for a little bit of context for you, the Human Rights Commission enforces the ADA equivalents that we have in state law in our Fair Employment Practices Act and our Vermont Public Accommodations Act. And that is meant to be interpreted consistently. Well, the Vermont Public Accommodations Act is meant to be interpreted consistently with the ACA. And I will share that the majority of the complaints that our office processes every day and over the history of the commission, the majority of those complaints involve people with disabilities who have experienced discrimination. We had, in the last two fiscal years, not including the fiscal year, we're partway through right now, we did have a total of nine ADA type violations that we found through investigation and determination. We also had nine fair housing disability related determinations of discrimination and three in state government employment that involve disability related claims. And you know, every day my office is forced to turn away investigations because of our limited investigative capacity. We every day receive calls and inquiries from the disability community, largely looking for information about their rights and trying to seek compliance with the ADA in various aspects of state government, as well as the community at large. Many folks that contact our office are seeking advice, and they're seeking advocates. These are not things that our office provides currently in our capacity, which is very limited to primarily doing enforcement work. So we do see that this position would be extremely helpful towards getting the state of Vermont more in a prevention of discrimination mindset. A lot of times, the only way we ensure compliance in Vermont with the ADA is through the complaint process. And many, many people who have experienced ADA violations that impact their daily lives do not have the means or resources or energy to go file complaints and lawsuits to move those issues forward. So we do see the creation of a statewide ADA coordinator invaluable. I appreciate that it is created as a permanent position, not a limited service position. If there was going to be a consideration to it being a pilot or a short term effort to see how it goes, I would highly encourage you to dedicate more than one year of funding for that position. At least a three year pilot is going to be needed. When I look at the scope of this role, I could see five people doing this job, not one. So when you think about trying to measure the effectiveness of the position with this many duties, it would take a few years for a person to be able to really fulfill, I think, the mission of this role. And I also would point out, it's drafted, an exempt position, meaning that it's an at will employment situation. Meaning that depending on the political will or interests in these issues, person in that position could be terminated at will. Okay? If we wanted to firm up the permanency of that hire, we would be having it classified, a classified position, so that it would have the protections of the collective bargaining agreement. And once they made it out of their probationary period, not be terminated without just cause. So that would be a little bit stronger way to ensure some longevity in the position. But I really would see it still struggling with just kind of the politics of being part of the agency of administration. It's going to be at the whim of the administration. That's one of the beautiful things about the Human Rights Commission is that we are an independent commission separate and not subject to the whim of the administration. And in fact, we're often challenging the administration's policies or practices as potentially discriminatory. When I look at Part C about the various entities for the Secretary of Administration to consult with, I feel like this would, from my point of view, delay a hiring process to have to consult with so many entities. And for me, the really important thing is to get buy in on the position like hiring process and description that you're going to post. You want to get buy in from the folks who are either members of the disability community or serving the disability community.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I was going to ask, so your recommendations, could you be able to let us know if you had to recommend?

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yeah, I would try to simplify it a bit more to many of these disability focused entities and those who serve the disability community, like Gayle, our office, the other like the Office of Attorney General, the Agency of Human Services, the Agency of Education, Department of Health, I don't know how much more input they would need to to the conversation about this hiring. And so just to try to make it more simple, I would suggest trying to reduce that a little bit. That's helpful. And that's just my experience of seeing things actually happen in the state government is that the more players you have, the longer it takes to do anything. And if we want to get someone boots on the ground in this position in the first half of the fiscal year, you can't have 15 entities to consult with before you first, let alone select someone to start the role. And then again, I'm overwhelmed by the number of tasks that we're trying to achieve with one person, one human being, and would be wanting to see where we could try to narrow it in some ways or try to hone in on what priorities there are. But that would really be like, if it's under the secretary of administration, the secretary is gonna be the one that designates the priorities. This is really, really broad work though, as much as it's needed. I don't know that one position we're going to see a huge impact from it, but it's definitely a good starting point. I would like to see somewhere in the section D about the role, I would like to see, while there's a great emphasis on compliance, consulting, and education, I would like to see reference to ableism, which is really the root of a lot of the issues that the disability community is grappling with every day in terms of access and inclusion and equity. So when I look at like SIC, Part D six, that says they're gonna educate state employees on their legal obligations and disability access requirements. So that's just compliance. That's not getting to prevention. I would like to see ableism added in there. It's a word we're just not talking about enough. We are willing to talk about racism. We are not willing to talk about ableism enough. And it is a serious reality for at least one quarter of our entire population. Yes. For our knowledge and our discussions, could you give us or point us in the right direction of what a good definition for ableism is? Because I think that could mean something, again, different for a lot of people. Yeah, sure.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Total ignorance, so.

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Right. Sure. I don't have a working definition I can easily rattle right off for you. But generally, we think of it as a set of beliefs that people with disabilities need to be fixed and in some way less than those without disabilities. And I do have a definition in a slide deck on my disability discrimination prevention that I'd be happy to share

[Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: with you. Phenomenal. Think it'd

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: be helpful for, and it will be really helpful for me.

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Yeah. It's something that I, whenever I get a microphone these days, just want to be talking about, just bringing it out, bringing it, like, let's all recognize we have it culturally, we have it institutionally, we have it societally, we have it internally, and we have it in all of our systems, all of our departments, all of our websites, like it's everywhere. So How big do you

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: ever use it? Do you, I was just thinking, I really admit to not having thought about this a lot. I was really struck when I lived in Spain, at least in Spain, the word to describe this population is menos valido. Less valid. But then I started to think, well, it's disabled. Is there a better term?

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: So, I think there's a lot of nuance in language with the disability community, And folks across the community will have different preferences about how they are referred to or how folks in the community are referred to. I think it's important not to call people disabled personally, but to say they may live with a disability, to put their individual identity first. They are a person with disabilities as opposed to a disabled person. Is just some of the nuance that we're continuing, the community is continuing to talk about this and consider it. Just as the queer community has grown in language and helped expand all of our thinking about how we use these words, We do wanna be catching ourselves when we're using outdated words and concepts, especially with the disability community.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Yes. I remember my mother telling me the word handicap is not appropriate to use.

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: It is now definitely disfavored, even though it exists everywhere in federal law,

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: the word handicap is parking spaces. I was just gonna say except in parking. Right.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Not all of them, but

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: some parking of those The

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: word is still used in the '88. Those parking spaces are

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. She always told me never use that word. And But, yeah, not all the parking spaces. People used it, like Anyway, so I remember that. But that's a really helpful question, Marc. And it might be helpful, too, even just since we're the committee of jurisdiction to have, like, something like over there, like, we have, like, we used to have, like, the basic needs, but the budget stuff, like, if we had, like, a thing that talked about these Language. Yeah, talked about the language so we can think about it and incorporate. Oh, we do have it?

[Saudia LaMont (Member)]: Sort of. Also

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: a concept of disability etiquette. And that's when you have mindfulness around various folks with different disabilities and ways to interact with them. For example, when you're communicating with someone who uses an ASL interpreter, you're not talking to the interpreter, you're talking to the person and addressing them. There are a lot of those little etiquette pieces, and the disability community has really done an amazing job. If you Google that stuff, you will find great little easy to understand pamphlets and videos that are really informational and just help get your mindset a little bit more self aware.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I have a question for you about, I'm trying to get my head around this. Look at eleven and twelve.

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: The two that I had bracketed off. I

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: don't want us

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: to duplicate what the HRC does in this, And I'm just not sure, what do you think about 11 as well?

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: That to me, first of all, yeah, like a person cannot do all these other 13 duties and these two as well. Our office

[Katie McLennan (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: handles complaints about E. Would be 12.

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: It would, yeah. And also, we have a complaint procedure. People have concerns about it because there is a lot about our process that is confidential by law, but that protects complainants as well as respondents from having to publicly disclose their disclosure,

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I that kind of am about to ask her for recommendations of what she would eliminate from this, but before I do, you want to say something?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Yeah, I mean, I just want to say that the way that we constructed the job description and who should be consulted and what should be included in the job was through I had about four hours to pick and choose from all of these different things, and I had a closed group of sources that I used. I mean, it it just it was meant to be it went from a short form to a long form overnight. It was meant to be us I think it's making things out.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I think it's fabulous considering how little time you had.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: What I what I wanna know is, like, let's say that the person was charged with actual coordination of services among among agencies advocacy organizations and stakeholders. Let's say that that was an effective role. And let's say that the education piece of it was actually an effective role and we had an ideal person for both of those. And maybe a policy advisor, let's say for funsies that that was in place. One my arguments to the committee is going to be how much money we are able to save by investing in this role. That even for municipalities, it actually saves them money rather than costing them more money to have a person who can educate them, who can advise them on what they need to do that's beyond an HR kind of goal. Are you able to speak to that in any way? I'm not saying, but can you speak to the ways in which that kind of position could, like our handling of people with disabilities or their programs or the way that they are treated, how or I should say we are treated. Can you speak at all to how the improvements that such a role would bring to state government? I mean, in a perfect world. In a perfect in a world where that position was fully funded, executed properly, and all that, and and the law was affected the way that it

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: should be, all all the good stuff.

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I think it's hard to quantify

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: how Yeah. I'm not saying dollar. I'm just saying

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: can

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: you

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: look at such a role and imagine what the kind of operational benefits would be for, obviously?

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I really think the operational benefits are immeasurable and unquantifiable. I think it's really about access, inclusion, and equity. And that is what this position is moving us one little step closer. And you envision a world where there's more resources devoted to it, I think you'll see even more of that. Initially, I think where things are at right now for the disability community, this position will get bombarded with phone calls and emails about complaints and barriers that people are experiencing, and we would be able to see a marked impact over time when those calls lessened.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I have a question for you, and it's just for you because I think this is primarily a matter for committee discussion. Given your expertise and your concern, if we don't have a choice and we have one person, one way to narrow this list, and I'm not advocating it so much as just simply asking how you feel about it, would be to take away the individual contact parts and keep it institutional. So, for example, look at the list. By way of example, one and three and five would be gone. But two, four, six through nine, etcetera. You see what I'm saying? In other words, if you take out the up and then put the 11 to 12, you keep the rest. In other words, if one were to take out that role, and this is a major policy issue, if take out from that position the role of, not that they could ever get away with not doing it, but at least out of statute, the requirement of being the individual point of contact for individuals, would that be a wise policy choice or an unwise one?

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: I think that that could narrow the role enough to look at the system's problems across state government and advise you next year about what they're observing, where there's gaps, why there's a need for the individual contact, and the other things that are being envisioned here. And I would like to speak a little bit to the complaint piece, because I completely understand why this is in there. Folks come to our process, it's months. You're not getting the problem fixed with our process. It's an after the fact most of the time. I am trying to use our informal complaint process more and more. So if I hear someone was denied access with a service dog, rather than initiate a complaint these days, I'm going to maybe try sending a letter and saying, this is the law. You can't do this. Please assure us that you're not going do this anymore. Now that you've been informed, you're going to educate your staff not to say these things to people who have service dogs. For example, we want to be more nimble in addressing issues more directly rather than going through kind of an elaborate investigative process. And I do think that our statute envisions that what conciliation happening earlier on. It'd be nice if we had more staff to do those kind of things. Here is our letter And to we very much appreciate that. But I see the need for complaint, but I feel like this is gonna be another hoop for people to jump through that they already are going to us, they're going to their advocates at VCIL and DRVT. And I don't know how much that's going to add to solutions. I think if we're looking at the audits, I think is really important. I think there could be just a role just doing audits and making recommendations for agencies that would have a huge impact if then there's a will to follow through on the recommendations.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: We are close to the end of our time with this, and so we have big, we're gonna take this up again to talk. And so questions of big, just leave it. I mean, like the issue I just raised is clearly a policy issue for us to discuss. So Gayle, you have one, and then,

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: okay, questions for Big. I was just curious, you don't mention when people call, that you may not take under your umbrella, that you go. But where do you refer them to now?

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: We refer them as often as we can to the CIL, Vermont Center for Independent Living, Disability Rights Vermont, and Vermont Legal Aid. Three organizations that are already

[Saudia LaMont (Member)]: totally strapped.

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: We don't know that they're getting through to anyone there. Sometimes we will, if I know there's someone at VCIL who's really good on this stuff, I might find time to contact them directly and say, can you help this person? So that we're trying to get more meaningful referrals now that are not just like, here's a website, good luck to you. We're trying to have more capacity with the intake coordinator position that we created last year for that kind of authentic referral as opposed to just passing the problem on to someone else who isn't really gonna have capacity to address it. So that's my question, because if you have the coordinator, so coordinator would be able to

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: figure out where they need to go. But how does that help with the agencies that are overburdened already?

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Right. And that's a real reality of, I think, something that this position is potentially going to witness, which is the reality that state employees across the board are being squeezed and have been squeezed for two decades, trying to do too many things with one position that's generally not getting paid enough. And so I really do see that problem being highlighted more when there is a statewide person. But I would like to see all the ADA coordinators across the state getting together and getting some best practices and sharing what they're already implementing. I'm also part of the Governor's Workforce Equity and Diversity Council. And we see that just with the office of racial equity in the last few years, there's now equity liaisons that are able to meet as a group and talk across agency about what they're doing on their equity work. And we really see that there could be a great benefit to state employees collaborating across agency, so they're not all reinventing the wheel every time during

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: the- And they're suffering and keep on referring, takes up time, which is making them even more overburdened. Yes.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Elizabeth, and then I think we've got

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: to stop. It's the thing. I mean, put all that stuff in there just to get everything onto a page, But, the thought really being, if there was a role that actually coordinated all of that stuff and saw where the overlaps are and saw where the gaps are, that maybe some of that burden of the CIL or Gayle or legal aid, maybe some of that burden could actually get, like a table could get cleared up even. It's not going to clear up everything. Everything is underfunded, we already know that, but it just makes no sense to have things be replicated department after department. It just does not make any sense.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: That's why I think this is, for me, is a benefit. We really ought to get this person focused on efficiency in state government on this issue, coordination, avoiding duplication, planning, and then come back to us with a recommendation on, well, what's next? Any other questions? Hey, thank you. This was great.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Don't forget the slides.

[Saudia LaMont (Member)]: What was that? The slides. Yes.

[Meg Hartman (Vermont Human Rights Commission)]: Okay, thank you. I also promised last time I was here that I was getting pass out annual reports and I never came back to do that. If anyone wants our last annual report, you can feel free to take one and no pressure. I know you all got lots of reading. Thank you. Yes, and I will email you with that information about a working definition of ableism. And I have a great little video that I like to share in my trainings about disability. Think like five minutes long and it's kind of fun with me and entertaining when you are

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: a lot. So I'll pass that along as well.

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I think that would be great. Never having heard the term myself.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Really? I've only one who

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: never heard the term, but

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: you know what? Let's put it in the sentence. I'm just admitting

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: what I don't know. We're learning.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: It's telling, and I mean, it's a reality. It is telling. I appreciate your transparency about that.

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: Right? Yeah.

[Saudia LaMont (Member)]: Well, I mean, disclosure, like, I just want to say thank you to this committee for allowing this much time for this conversation, for this subject matter, for this bill. I'm holding back tears because the language is in the room, in the space, and I hope we actually do something with it, but just the fact that we're having the conversation and we're talking about language and we're talking about ableism, and we're talking about the things that What's the term, the word you called? What did you say? Who often get considered What is the Spanish term? Who get considered, like, let's change that. Let's shift that narrative. I don't think you for even

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: It's our

[Jane Bright (Public Witness)]: word. It's based. Our word is not that. Know. Going I

[Saudia LaMont (Member)]: say thank you for this time. Thank you for coming, Big,

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: and I look forward

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: to Thank taking

[Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: you, as always. Okay. Alright, so let's take a 10 break, come back to 02:30, and we're going to have Sophie back here for a final markup, really, at 04:59. And so, minutes.