Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Great, thank you. Good morning, everybody. It is Wednesday, February 18. Thank you to the committee who have been flexible as we've had lots of scheduling changes. Thank you to rep Nicholas for being flexible and coming so quickly when we asked. Today, we are going to start with an introduction of H827, an act relating to flooding disclosures when conveying real estate. Brett Nicholas, you introduced this. I think there might be a few questions at the end because this is something we dealt with last year. So just trying to understand that maybe there's something we missed. Take it So

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: for the record, Tony Micklis, representative Tony Micklis. I represent Chittenden, I represent Milton in Georgia. My background, I am a licensed real estate broker, and I specifically am a foreclosure specialist. I started working in real estate in 2015, started in foreclosures in 2016, and have continued to work in them until the end of last year, which I retired from foreclosures. And the reason this bill came, why I put this bill in, because when I deal with foreclosure companies, a lot of times, and especially in the post COVID era, properties have sat vacant for years, three, four, five, six, even longer in some situations. There's one that I know of that sat seven years vacant. And because they're foreclosure companies, they've never visited the property. And then we come along and we're ready to put it on the market and we hand them this form and they're like, well, we don't know if it's ever flooded. So, we get a lot of pushback, either they refuse to sign it. Most of the time they just refuse to sign it. And I'm not so concerned about the foreclosure companies. They got plenty of resources, what brought this to mind more was you have a situation where perhaps you have a relative that has lived up here and you're the only heir and maybe you've never set foot on the property. Maybe you haven't set foot on the property in twenty years. And it's played off and especially in estate sales, maybe when you finally get it, and then you can sit on that property for many years before you actually go to selling it. If you never lived on the property, how do you know if it's flooded? So what my bill proposes is to just allow an option if you've never lived on the property to say that. My concern is, like with an heir to grandma's house or something like that, well, if they check no, and then they find out it's been flooded, now they're on the hook for that, they've lied. And if they check yes, maybe it's never flooded. And now they're having to deal with the ramifications of, oh, it will significantly drop the buy of the property. And what my bill proposes is that it allows a seller to disclose to the buyer that they've never physically lived on the property. And I'm happy with the way the bill is put together, because I think it's important, we want people to realize it doesn't mean that you're relieved of liability, but it adds that extra piece. So my goal here is everyone should be able to make an informed decision. And I think if you have a buyer and they know why I've never looked on the property, at least they are full force entering into this agreement taking that risk. That's all I really have, so I'm happy to answer any questions.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: I have questions, but are there any other questions of the committee?

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Mine would just be I was just trying to look it up real quick, because that did come out of this committee. I could've swore the bill that came out with it did have a, like, wanting kind of what you're talking about. Like, I have no idea.

[Travis Nicholas (Legislative Counsel)]: I don't know.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: So I settled when I have a When I'm when I sent the the stuff a couple weeks ago, I sent you the form, the actual form we use Yeah. Yeah. In the at the at the VBR. And you will see there is no checkbox there. It's either yes or no.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: It's funny if the underlying bill that created that actually says it was supposed to or not. But I will

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Last year, in fact, I did the presenting on the floor that I felt I could address this issue, and the Senate took it all out and went back to the original no. It was. Oh, is it so the Senate? The Senate changed it. And you know what I'm gonna say? They were like, we did talk about that the seller would have to disclose, and our FEMA maps are incomplete in some areas of the state, you guys.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: That's a whole other ball of wax.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: You and I have talked about that.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: And, I mean, I it's like we just bought a piece of property that has the hundred year flood. It's like all the rep you know, all the neighbors came and told us and gave us pictures and all this stuff. So I don't know if the real estate agent ever did anything. But no, I presented on the floor. I don't remember the number of that, but it was just amending. Page six one.

[Travis Nicholas (Legislative Counsel)]: Page six zero one.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: And I feel like you're asking for the same thing again.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: That might very well be.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: I don't I'm sorry. Which any kids. The senate, yeah, the senate went back to the original wording.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: It's an act

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Because it like you but, you know, you said to the best of my knowledge, this is what I know. I don't even think it had anything to do with if you step foot on there or not, but it was just and I don't think it had anything to do with foreclosures.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: I think it's just property being sold. Really quickly, I'm just gonna read the summary because it's a very short summary of it because it did pass. It's Act 52 of last year. This act amends existing statutes so that it will no longer require that a seller of real property notify a buyer whether the real property is located with a federal emergency or FEMA mapped special or moderate flooding flood hazard area. Instead, the statute will require that a seller of real property provide the buyer with a physical or electronic copy or digital link of the official flood insurance rate map of the property as published by FEMA. Seller is required to notify a buyer if a map is unavailable. So then that part of the, I don't know was removed. And now the seller is required to just provide a map or notice.

[Travis Nicholas (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, the bill says or notice that a flood insurance rate is not available effective for the community and that's

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: where real estate property is located.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: Okay. Mean, I'm going by the form, which has a yes or no. And maybe that's something that we need to reach out to VBR

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Yep.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: And have them change that form.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Well, and it so it sounds like what ended up happening is the portion that we had worked on, the I don't know portion, was removed

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: Okay.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: From the senate.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: That is helpful. Thanks for being part

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: of this committee discussion. Absolutely.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: And, yeah, I'll certainly let the Senate, you know, I'll my best to you know, I I mean, I don't see you guys putting this as a tone separate bill since it's ripe for just throwing in something some other amended you know, some into, like, a list of amendments.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Sure.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: If you can just let me know, I'm happy to follow-up with the Senate when it gets to them.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, oh, absolutely. Wherever it goes, we'll definitely let you know, I don't know.

[Travis Nicholas (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, I guess I'm looking at how it was H106 as enacted, And it says note it that your other option is to notify that a flood insurance rate map is unavailable. So I think that the bargain was, well, the seller should do their due diligence even if they haven't lived there. They should be able to either call or write to the town clerk or look at the link, look the FEMA map. And if it's not clear, there's your you have an ability to say that. So it sounds like they didn't write the form to really reflect how the bill came out, which kind of makes me feel like it's not an issue of writing new legislation.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, so I think that was when the chair and I had first seen this, we were a little confused. Had talked to Travis Nicholas to say, like, what's really the issue, and I think it is a matter of VB Where are my board of realtors? So VBR, like getting in touch with them and saying, is there something that we can update?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: And so I think that

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: might be the next step for us.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: I mean, first thing that might, the foreclosure realm, they're like, we're not gonna sign that.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: What happens if you don't sign it?

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: I don't know. I think it's one of these things where it's, I don't even know if it's really, I think it's just private right of action. I mean, it's a matter of you didn't sign it and then it floods and then that person could sue and say, well, you never told us.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Are there any other questions, comments?

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: No. Well, thank you

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: I so appreciate you coming in.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: I think it's food for thought. Yes.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: Yeah. And I'm curious because you mentioned that that part was taken out in the Senate.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: It must have been because I

[Travis Nicholas (Legislative Counsel)]: just I think don't know. Specifically, don't know. And I think that the new language was instead, you have to provide the link to the FEMA map or a copy of the FEMA map or notify that there is none available.

[Elizabeth Burrows (Member)]: Now, had to go down to the Senate and testify in that committee about the bill, they just went back to the original wording. They took out what we worked on.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: But it's a Well, there

[Travis Nicholas (Legislative Counsel)]: is some That give notice is underlined. So there was new language. It just wasn't our new language.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. So, and it's always helpful to have someone who actually is in the business and understands what's going on.

[Emilie Krasnow (Ranking Member)]: Yeah.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Well, thank you so much.

[Rep. Tony Micklis]: Let me know if I can do anything more to help.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: I regret saying that. Thank you. So we have, I believe her name is Kai Morris. She is a Secure Housing Coach from the Land Access and Opportunity Board. She'll be joining us so we can continue our conversations on 772, which is the tenant

[Travis Nicholas (Legislative Counsel)]: landlord, different bills that we're talking about.

[Ashley Bartley (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Yeah,