Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah, that's right, and Saudia. I don't see Saudia yet.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Oh, garbage. For live.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: For live? Great. Sorry, everyone who's watching on video. We lost video briefly. We're still in our hearing, and our next witness who's just beginning is Kathleen Burke, who's executive director of the Vermont State Housing Authority.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Good morning.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Good morning, Kathleen, take it away.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Okay, again, for the record, my name is Kathleen Burke, I am the Executive Director of the Vermont State Housing Authority. I'm pleased to have been invited to come in and talk with you about the work that our agency plays and does here in the state of Maryland. Now, I opted not to provide a beautiful PowerPoint presentation, and rather what I opted to do was to provide a resource document that I thought will be helpful for you as you begin your most important work throughout the session. And I hope that it will be something that you will refer to as questions come up, and certainly I am always available to answer questions. We have a very expansive website as well that provides very detailed information about the programs that we administer. So, I've opted to not provide that granular detail in this testimony today, but ask that certainly if you have questions, or if you want more information, you wanna do a deep dive, look to our website, give me a call. So with that, just very broadly, our mission is to ensure quality housing opportunities are available to Vermonters statewide. I think it's important to begin with just sort of level setting. How is the Vermont State Housing Authority different than the local public housing authorities around the state? Over the past several months, various conversations and testimony, as I just said here, some others, it became clear to me that there's not an understanding. The Vermont State Housing Authority was created by the legislature in 1968. The governor appoints our seven member board of commissioners. The local housing authorities, Burlington Housing Authority, Montpelier Housing Authority, Rutland Housing Authority, example, were created by their local municipality. Those municipalities appoint the board of directors that serve on the local housing authority board. So we are, the Vermont State Housing Authority is an instrumentality of the state. We were created to administer the programs that we do for low income Vermonters statewide. Public housing authorities, including the Vermont State Housing Authority reports to the Board of Commissioners and the Department of Housing and Urban Development, and that is the hierarchy. We play a unique statewide role serving as both a direct service provider and an administrative partner to state agencies, municipalities, landlords to ensure stable housing for Vermont residents across the full continuum of care. What we do, we provide direct housing assistance, rental assistance to more than 8,500 Vermont households. That's just the Vermont State Housing Authority.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: So in a way, you're the biggest For the largest authority.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: The largest housing authority in the state. The Burlington Housing Authority would be the next largest housing authority in Vermont.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Do you have a question?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: This might be really silly.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Do you have any oversight over? That's why I'm raising this up. We do not have oversight over the local housing authorities. And there is a sense that because we are a statewide housing authority that we do. Think there's their own rights. But I think it's important for certainly this committee to understand the distinction. Local housing authorities were created by the local municipality. The Burlington Housing Authority was created by Burlington City Council. Burlington City Council appoints the board of directors of the Burlington Housing Authority.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: But the next biggest, like for example, is the Burlington Housing Authority the next biggest one? How many do they have? How many families do they have or units?

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: They're serving approximately, I would say, two to 3,000.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay. So you at 8,500

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: don't know exactly what their full inventory of affordable housing is, but they're significant. They play a significant role in the city of Burlington in providing affordable housing opportunities.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Do you find yourself though in an informal role of helping local authorities with HUD and other matters because of your size?

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: We do, and that's something that we've done over time. It's really, I consider it technical assistance, collaboration, helping small local housing authorities comply with very complex rules and regulations. I think what we've seen more recently within local housing authorities is a lot of staff turnover. And local housing authorities may have three or four staff people. And when there's that kind of turnover, staff leave, they take the talent with them. But then the new hires don't have that talent or experience. And so they lean on us, the Vermont State Housing Authority, for that technical assistance. Currently, we're providing technical assistance to three different authorities. And it's something that we do, we don't charge for that service. We do it in collaboration and partnership in the spirit of mission.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yes, go ahead.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: I just want to make sure that it's not in here.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: Oh! I just wonder,

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: to what degree do you, as an executive director, or your staff, since you have a direct relationship with HUD, to what degree can you predict what's coming down the pipe from HUD? Or has it been to what degree can you plan versus needing to be responsive?

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Very, very difficult in this environment. That's the honest answer. I've had the pleasure of doing this work for over thirty five years, and in the past, I felt pretty confident about providing some projections in terms of what the future might look like, what next year's funding might be. We're working in an environment now where there's just a great deal of uncertainty. We have executive orders that come out of the administration that we didn't anticipate would impact our work. We know that the president's big beautiful bill as it relates to rental assistance programs recommended a 40% decrease in housing choice vouchers for the state of Maryland. And that's just that one program. I can tell you that there are two, there's a Senate bill and a House bill that is being considered in Congress. One bill anticipates that the voucher program will be reduced by 600 units over the course of 2026. The other bill 600 units in Vermont. In Vermont. The other bill would reduce vouchers by approximately 300 for the state of

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: Vermont. Is there anything that we can do as a

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: legislature I would to

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: like get to that and make some recommendations. Excellent, excellent.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Moving on, So I'm

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: you said about some fusion, one of the things I've always been confused about is

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: BSHA and BHFA, having to do his manufactured home in Colchester, and originally it was HSA that was involved, and then it became the, it's called Windhamere. Windhamere is a mobile home park that's owned by the Vermont State Housing Authority's nonprofit the Housing Foundation.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: That's you.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: That is us, that is me, we're VSHA. Very simply, the Vermont Housing Finance Agency is the allocator of low income housing tax credits, they provide financing. Vermont's pretty housing authority, provides rental assistance. Band manages affordable housing throughout the state, including apartments and mobile home communities.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: Can I just say one more thing? Yes. At our November, I just want to say it out loud, at our November 3, I think it was hearing, I was really thoroughly and deeply impressed by your description and response to what is happening at HUD, and the kudos that you received, and the number of times that genius was mentioned with regards to your work, really makes me trust you

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: implicitly. Thank you. So back to the script. Again, the work that the Vermont State Housing Authority does. We provide rental assistance. That rental assistance is funded through the US Department of Housing and Urban Development and the Department of Agriculture, also known as USDA. We administer state funded rental assistance programs mental health and for the Vermont Department of Health. We manage affordable housing properties, again, apartments. We manage about 1,000 units of multifamily housing. We also manage 18 manufactured home communities in Vermont, including Windhamere for the Housing Foundation, Inc, which is a nonprofit owner. So when you say manage, what exactly do you mean? Manage room, we maintain the property, we collect the rents, we work with the residents. So when you say maintain the property, does that mean there's someone or some entity that has oversight? That's exactly it. The Vermont State Housing Authority has, as if they were the owner of the community. Does that make it clear?

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Is Housing Foundation Inc, does it have contractual relationships with you or a legal one? Do you own them?

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: We do not own them, they have a contractual relationship with the Land State Housing Authority.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Great, thank you.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: We also administer homeless prevention housing stability programs. We have a rental arrears assistance program, which was actually a product of this committee a couple of years ago under Act 47. We operate that program under the name of Eviction Prevention. This is a program that has been very successful, but you will need a reappropriation this year to be obligational beyond this year. We also administer a landlord relief program, which in essence is a risk pool that landlords can take advantage of. The idea that the incentive is for landlords to rent to tenants with a subsidy, it doesn't have be a Section A subsidy, any type of subsidy. So it's there as an incentive, it's a risk pool, so if those tenants don't pay their rent, they cause damage to the apartment, then these landlords can come to the fund and receive reimbursement up to a certain amount. That program does not need reappropriation this year, but it is an example of a housing stability homeless prevention program that we administer.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes, if you could just remind me, is it just for tenants that receive

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: subsidies? It is.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Okay, but it's for landlords.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: It's for landlords, it wouldn't access.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: That's what's in your situation. Thank you.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: We also have home repair and home ownership opportunity, I'm sorry.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: How old is that program, just really quickly?

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: So we are entering year three, and that was a program, and actually the funds were appropriated to the Office of Economic Opportunity, and they are sub granted to the Vermont State Council Authority to administer. Thank you. Thank you, Mary E. We also have home repair and home ownership opportunities. We have a manufactured home improvement and repair program that's referred to as MR. You're gonna hear Commissioner

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Farrell You administer MR.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: We administer MR in partnership with the Department of Housing and Community Development. You will hear Commissioner Farrell talk about that in his testimony later this morning. We also are administering a mobile home infill project. This is done partnership with the Agency of Transportation. This came out of an initiative of the governor about a year and a half ago, where he raised the E board seeking funds the several flooding events and in response to our affordable housing crisis to improve mobile home lots and existing mobile home communities and place homes on those lots for sale. The program has been operational just a little over a year. We've placed 74 homes in that time and 50 of those homes are either sold or under an agreement to be sold, a P and S contract.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Kathleen, you have a little over ten, so you have about ten minutes.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Okay. I want to talk about the current challenges of the Housing Choice Badger Program, that's something that I've talked a lot about over the past nine months. The Housing Choice Voucher Program helps low income families afford safe, stable housing by subsidizing a portion of their rent. However, chronic federal underfunding combined with rapidly rising rental costs has placed the program in sustained decline. The Vermont State Housing Authority statistics, and I'm focusing on the Vermont State Housing Authority, my agency. Over the past several months, I've talked a lot and mostly about vouchers in the state of Vermont, and I've represented the portfolios of local housing authorities in my testimony and in my conversation. Today, I'm representing just the Vermont State Housing Authority's portfolio. So the Vermont State Housing Authority has 4,495 badgers that have been awarded to the agency over time. As of the December 2025, 3,852 of those vouchers were leased. The estimated vouchers leased in calendar year '26 that we're in now that we've just begun will be even further reduced based on reduction in federal funding. We're anticipating that to be somewhere around 3,700 vouchers. That's a gap of unfunded vouchers of approximately seven sixty four units. We have a housing crisis, we have a homelessness crisis, we have unfunded vouchers.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Will those unfunded vouchers likely, will you be able, if that should materialize as estimated, I understand it's an estimate, if it does, will you address that by non renewal of vouchers where families leave for some reason or will you have to terminate cause Champlain Housing Trust or yourselves to terminate families?

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Right. All housing authorities in the state of Vermont right now are operating in an environment where they are not issuing any new vouchers to the waiting list, and they haven't for months. They are not making new commitments to housing developers for project based vouchers. They are pausing commitments that were previously made to housing developers for project based vouchers, because there are not the funds available within the public housing authority account to support those commitments. And I just wanna draw a nexus back to Gus' presentation and specifically the property in Waterbury, where there are units set aside for the DBI population. Those units rely on subsidy. The Vermont State Housing Authority made a commitment to provide project based subsidy for those units, although we've let the developer know that we don't have the funds right now to support that commitment. So I wanna just talk a little bit about what I refer to as the death spiral of the Housing Choice Badger Program and what it means. Simply, funding doesn't keep pace. The program receives a fixed federal allocation each year while rental costs continue to rise significantly faster. As a result, available funding covers fewer households over time. And fewer families are served. Housing authorities are forced to stop issuing new vouchers, reduce the payment standards, which is also the amount that they will provide for subsidy for each family, or terminate assistance. Waiting lists grow longer and many eligible families never receive help. Landlord participation declines. As market rents outpace the voucher payment standards or what housing authorities can pay for events, landlords increasingly exit the program, making it harder for families with vouchers to secure housing. Housing instability increases, this is a spiral. Families are unable to find housing or absorb higher out of pocket rent costs, face eviction or homelessness, increasing demand for emergency services and public assistance. This dynamic is akin to attempting to fill a bathtub while the drain remains open and the faucet only trickles. The water level continues to drop despite best efforts.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: To clarify, and this is compounded, am I right? This is compounded by the way HUD calculates what it will appropriate the following year, based on, it bases on the number of outstanding rented vouchers in the prior year, so as we get less vouchers in one year, when HUD appropriates the following year, they appropriate less.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: That is correct, and so going back to looking at the VSHA voucher utilization trends, specifically if we're estimating that we will serve 3,731 families in calendar year 'twenty six. If we're successful in doing that, that will set the base of the number of families that will be funded in calendar year 'twenty seven. And so now you begin to see, if you look at the voucher trends, as voucher utilization drops, voucher utilization has dropped for a variety of reasons, but mostly because Congress has failed to adequately fund the program over time.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: What I'd like to do since Kathleen is almost out of time, I just want to clarify for the committee, because I know there's serious concern about this issue. Two things. One, this has a potential threat, not only of terribly harming the individuals who are exiting from their units, but also organizations that have appeared before us and will, like Champlain Housing Trust or other of the local housing entities, they depend on, as they put together developments, they depend on knowing that there will be vouchers to support the rent in these developments, so they're endangered and it has a cascading effect. As a result, I just want to let everybody know, I have a bill that I've been working with Kathleen on that is one that's a placeholder that for an appropriations to this year, to increase the decrease, slow the decrease in vouchers in order to, on a one time basis, in order to ensure that the next year we will not get a lower appropriation or to try to slow this downward spiral. And if anyone wants to talk to me about that and where we are in the effort to get the money for that, let's do it offline, I just don't want to cut, I mean, Kathleen, you're about out of time.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Okay, I'm getting the message. I'm talking about that as a preservation opportunity.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Right, it's not increasing vouchers, it's slowing the decrease. And we will face choices as a legislature that are much greater than this downward spiral problem if any of the budgetary considerations in Congress materialize, we'll be facing, you know, somewhere, you know, 300, 600 or even more units decrease because of that.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Can I ask a very Have quick you studied the effects of what the permanent loss of vouchers has just on the rental market, like what the regular rates and how many units would be available, like if this is preventing developers from actually building more units, like how this feeds our entire housing? It doesn't have an impact on housing supply per se. It has an impact on housing affordability. Sure. Right. So in other words, if we are when you said it's going to prevent developers have been denied the vouchers, you mean new construction? So let's use the project in Waterbury that is about ready for occupancy. That project and their underwriting relied on a commitment for project based rental assistance to serve a certain population of folks. And that's considered operating income in their budget. If I can't come forward and provide that operating income in their budget, they're gonna have to find that elsewhere. They're not gonna be able to meet the required target of serving families exiting homelessness for those units. They're not gonna be able to offer units to the developmentally disabled community because those individuals need the assistance in order to pay the rent. Does that make sense? Yeah, I'm just trying to understand the way that that when we just have fewer overall housing units, period, regardless of who they're directed at, what effect that might have for a working Vermonter that, you know, still can't afford as high of a rent.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Right. I think it's safe to say that the projects will fail. Yeah. Will not be built. Right. And so the reason they will not be built is because the tax credits or other funding sources have requirements which could not be met. It's not like they can build the housing anyway and just rent them on the free market.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: No, I get what I'm saying that overall our state supply of housing would be, I'm trying to figure

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: out how drastically reduced we would be looking and that downward spiral down the line as well, for this overall option for housing. Kathleen, is there anything else deem highly important at this point, knowing Okay, that we can have you

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: yes, please have me back. There's just two things. I would encourage the community to review this document. There's some great questions and answers that I put together at the back of the document. But I would like the opportunity to just talk quickly about what our legislative priorities are for 2026, if I may. One is the voucher contingency fund that representative Mihaly just spoke about. The Rental Awareness Assistance Fund that was originally a bill that was sponsored by this committee is in need of reappropriation. I would ask that the committee support that reappropriation. And then thirdly, this is a proposal that I am working with stakeholders and partners to develop, and it's the statewide bridge rental assistance program. There's a nice explanation in my materials that describes what that is. I believe that the Rental and Rare Assistance Fund and the statewide bridge rental assistance program really go hand in hand, especially in an environment of decreased federal rental assistance resources. And these two programs together could very well stabilize some of these affordable housing communities in which commitments have been made to assist lower income families and prevent eviction and further homelessness and the downward spiral as we work through the next couple of years with this federal administration. It's not going to, I think the message conveyed, you had asked about my relationship with Housing and Urban Development, just in late December, conveyed that 2026 is gonna be difficult for public housing authorities. And that if you receive shortfall funds in 2025, which we did a significant amount, that you can expect to be in shortfall in 2026. So it's a very bleak picture as we look forward. And so with that, I think considering funding these two initiatives is, in my opinion, critical for the general assembly. Thank

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: you very much. We will, I realize that having given Kathleen enough time to go through all of her proposals in a little more detail for the committees, I will be introducing legislation that addresses a number of things, but some of what she's talked about, but I haven't got it out of Legis Council yet.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: You have competing questions.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yes, do we We do have another week.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: We both. So,

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I urge us to keep these questions during

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: They're this super short. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: We obviously would like to have you back. Next time you come back, can I ask for some information so you are prepared for the question? Absolutely. I would really love to know what other housing authorities are doing, cause we're obviously not the only state that is up against these really difficult decisions.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: But I think that would help us kind of paint the picture and maybe they're doing something that they're not. You would like to understand what other states are doing, not necessarily causing authorities in Vermont. Okay,

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Mine was a comment, I know you probably get it all the time, but thank you. I mean, just there are people in this building who deserve so many thanks and appreciation, and you are top of the list.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Well, thank you. Have the pleasure of doing something that I love and I feel pretty passionate about, so thank you.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: That's a thousand thank yous for coming.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Thank you.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I apologize, we're running a little late. We really do have to take a break pretty soon. Can people hold till eleven, or shall we take a break now? We have Alex coming in at eleven. We could ask him to come at eleven. I

[Unidentified Committee Member]: saw him in the hall and he said he was just staying.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: I'll be direct and I'll make you home. I

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: apologize to the committee, but let's go ahead. Okay, Laurelie is Executive Director of the NECA Chamber. Thank you. You've appeared before us, welcome back.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: I have, and we'll skip a lot of maybe the intro to what I commented. So it's 10 ideas and thoughts that can really impact what rural development looks like. I understand and appreciate the need as we are in a region of the most economically disadvantaged people in the whole state of the need for low income housing, however, or affordable housing. I think that the target that is so important is that missing middle. So I think that there are some things that we can do that can really impact that. It's funny about a year ago, this was actually the first committee I ever testified in front of. So thank you for having me back. But it was interesting in the process, was told that $20,000,000 that had been allocated a couple of years ago. I was apologized to by the person who told me about the programs to say that not 1 penny had come to the Northeast Kingdom, but that they do better. And I know that money was reallocated and I think the programs are just remarkable in what they do, but it's still not hitting in the Northeast Kingdom. And I think it's because rural Vermont, not just the Northeast Kingdom, it's different. It's just different than the things that pencil out in Chittenden County, it's different in rural Vermont. And I think that, can talk more about that. But one thing I drove down in October through Market Street, is it in South Burlington? I'm familiar. I was jealous. I was tremendously jealous because there was something that was happening. We have so many projects in our region and we have four real main towns that density would work in St. John's Spring, Newport, Hardwick and I think Linden as well. And there are developers who were desperate and they have plans, they have plans on the table and they cannot make it work. And that's just craziness. And so I come here and I'm just, I'm touch angry, but mostly just frustrated really. It's not really anger. It's just like, how do I make this happen for my region? Because we are at that point where if we don't fix it, all of the positive developments that are happening with Burke Mountain being purchased with Weidman doing a $40,000,000 expansion, with so many positive things that are happening. If we cannot support them through employment and workforce, there's no point. Right? All of the work that we've done, it's a waste of time. I don't need to go through how much money gets wasted. Have anecdotes about permitting and how much that's costing. There's one guy who's been working on a project and it was $350,000 before he could even break down, and that was just in permitting. Just crazy. So I'm just, there's a few, I had 10. And I had a couple of folks respond with me a little bit further and I can re update my remarks and share them and get them back to you if you I want was asked to do this two weeks ago.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: I giggle early, not enough notice.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: It's all good. It's all good. I'm so happy to be here. But one, it's Act two fifty and rural applicability. So the downtown and neighborhood development area exemptions have helped significantly. But in many rural towns, historic downtowns overlap with our flood zones. So in my own community and to last year's flooding, our community was devastating for Linden. But FEMA damaged so many homes and businesses and FEMA buyouts further reduced housing stock. And so then when you have those tier one districts, it seems kind of good, but it's not when you're really looking at rural because those are still not places that we can develop. And most of rural Vermont is in tier three. So we need a rural housing pathway that can raise thresholds for small projects, streamline and shorten appeals as was mentioned earlier and establishes predictable timelines because with our smaller developers, the timeline, they can't wait four years. You've got a one person show in some cases who really have plans to make a difference, but if they don't have the time to wait. So this, the tier one zoning policy, I think this is really important to understand because on paper, I think so many of our laws and legislation we have, it looks really smart. We wanna keep the beauty of Vermont. And I think that on paper it looks really good, but in practicality, it doesn't always work. So tier one designation is functionally inaccessible to most rural towns and villages. And forgive me for reading this, this is actually from a colleague and I wanna make sure I get it right. The permitting relief and pre development advantages it provides are available to cities, not to rural communities. In practice, this has created a two tier housing system where development is enabled in urban areas installed everywhere else. We need dramatically simplified or zoning exempt development pathways in downtowns and designated village centers. The primary constraint in these areas is not land use, it's wastewater. State dollars should be funneled toward enabling projects through village scale and neighborhood wastewater systems, including alternative technologies. So this will require ANR and DEC to shift from a risk avoidance mindset to a solutions oriented approach. Current approval processes are overly conservative and routinely take many months. And they are one of the main reasons rural housing projects fail before they begin. We also need to acknowledge in many of our rural towns, there is no zoning. There's no zoning.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: You remember, I can't remember, used to have a member who was from, how many? 90.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: 90? Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay, I was wondering how many.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Some of these towns, they don't have a PTA.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: Oh, Oh, it got you in the whole, yeah, that's- 90. 90, okay. And without administrative capacity. Mean, sometimes you get a point to position in some of these towns where we just don't have that. So benefits accrue to communities that already have staff and resources. And I just wanna also say about that piece from VHFA and that $20,000,000 If I were the person allocating the funds, I get it. We wanna have the biggest bang for the buck. Market Street makes sense. How many hundreds of units are being put

[Unidentified Committee Member]: in? Hundreds.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: And in small town Vermont, you're never gonna see that much. And so I get it, I understand why it happens, but at the same time, if we don't keep our rural communities alive, it will impact everybody. Okay, third, reduce the length and cost of appeals. Don't need to say more about that. Fourth, improve access to capital for those small local developers. What I've got, I've got a handful of these people who are, they've got brilliant ideas, but they can't get that first step. And that funding isn't available anywhere. There's a ton of funding available for the affordable housing type pieces. Rural Edge is really doing incredible work. But I've got a couple of really innovative developers who wanna do some small scale things and they can't get it to pencil out. And so I think we need to sort out pre development financing, revolving loan funds, loan guarantees, and predictable capital for these small developers. Can I ask a quick question?

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Are these all housing projects you're talking about? Or are you talking about commercial developments? Housing. Housing, yes.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: I think business wise, Vida really fills a great gap for a lot of those types of things. I don't know if you're

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: aware that they came in to ask whether they could go get So more you would support that? I would.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: I think it's just one piece that's missing. And I don't think it undermines the HFA. I think that it serves that one extra little piece. Mean, there's so many, I just was chatting with Chris Caledonia, who's the CEO of Community National Bank, just really remarkable mind. And we were talking about just businesses and the ways that funding happens. I am learning the picture better. I'm no expert, but understanding that there are some businesses that get funded with seven different sources to make it happen. The Yellow Barn project in Hardwick is an example of, it's a huge success, but boy, it took funding from many, many different sources. And housing is just not in that list. So I think Anita

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: could I think fill that just a question, not for now. We're very aware of this problem of lack of capital. The question is what to do, what we can do about it. In other words, you know, what does the president of Community National Bank need from the state in order to underwrite projects which they would otherwise not underwrite?

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: I think it's the revolving loan fund is what Chris was saying. And I think I have an idea for how we could put in probably 8,000 housing units in the Northeast Kingdom without dealing with the nimbyism. Because we have, I'll give an example in Lunenburg alone, there are about nine eighty houses on the tax record. Over two fifty of them are uninhabited or uninhabitable. So think about what that means, right? Almost a third of your houses in your entire town are dumps, need to be torn down, the roofs are caving in. In some cases they're being used as drug houses because nobody is taking any account of them. Nobody's gonna complain if that house gets taken down. And that's why one of my developers or two of my developers are planning. One is RS Development and another is Tuckerman Hill. And he was part of the Northern Forest Center's rehabilitation of 560 Railroad Street in Johnsbury, another success story, very expensive one. But that they would take those infill properties, tear them down and put up and what they've actually come up with a system of a modular type house. We need to start to think differently about how we're building. Stick built homes are really expensive. And there are systems out there that exist. And Evan Olson was the gentleman telling me about this one is that Maine has actually taken a really active role in facilitating some of this work. So that could be something that we could compare what they're doing just as another model. So I'm so sorry, representative Marcotte, what was your question? Did I answer your question? I get excited. I think another piece of that though is taking those blighted properties. If we use that land strategically, you talk to the municipalities and say, hey, what if you instead of sitting on this thing that nobody's paying taxes for, donate it to the developer, waive the back taxes, and let's, and if it's, is that something you're

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: a fan of? We know about this problem.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: Okay, cool. So these are my, you asked for tangible things And that maybe you could I think another piece, someone was, some of our schools in particular have a tremendous amount of land that's not being taxed. You could create some sort of a development in that place, obviously a certain distance from children and all the rest, but there's a lot of land in a lot of our schools and municipalities that's not being used. That's how we build housing. Vida, I mentioned, and our infrastructure rules need rural flexibility. So programs like TIP and SHIP have been helpful, but there are certain pieces that just does not translate to rural Vermont and we're just not able to access in the ways that shared infrastructure eligibility based on public benefit, not just public ownership. There was one developer, got plans, he's got funding from out of state to make this happen for this Hastings Hill project in St. Johnsbury. It would be, it's ideal, it's a beautiful design, everybody is for it, and they can't get it to pencil out. And he said, one thing that would make a really concrete difference, and I don't entirely know all the details to it, you probably know it better than me, is we have a tax cap, length of time, and he said that if we had seven years, right now it's seven years, you're smiling, if we could extend it to ten? He's referring to what?

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: That's a good question. Okay.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: So, I think that there is maybe an exemption for paying taxes.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Not yet. Okay. There is, he may be referring to, these are more conversations we have to have.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: Okay.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: He may be referring

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: The building materials? Is there

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: a tax on building? To know that Tax abatement. Tax abatement, there is no tax.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: Okay, so tax abatement. Yeah. And he said it could it would completely change the

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Well, Tom and I are working on

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: a bill. Okay, so we're free of ice, think alike, right? And I think one other piece that I just did not heard enough people talking about is our workforce. It's a huge problem. Know everyone knows that. I've heard people talking about that. But I'm also one of my other hats is I'm the chair of Linen Institute that has a Career and Technical Education Center. And there are challenges and again, things that look really good on paper, but in actuality, they are handcuffing our training centers in our rural regions. So much so that St. John's Ray Academy that holds, they teach the building trades program, they shuttered it this year because they couldn't, all of the regulations from the department of education are limiting so much the flexibility of schools. And again, I think that it's not as big of a deal in a place like South Burlington, but it is, and who knows, I just don't know it. I don't know it well enough. But we are not graduating any students in those programs this year. It's a huge problem.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: You know how its roots are.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Yes, yes.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: Okay, we thought, just to clarify, independent schools like St. John's Berry Academy do not have to currently adhere to the education quality standards that public schools have

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: They do. For CTE programs,

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: they absolutely do, 100%.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: So the CTE program, are you saying that the CTE program that's contained in St. Johnsbury Academy Adheres to all of the Department of Education rules, yes. But that's St. Jay's Choice, that's not required No, by it is absolutely 100% required by the state. So is the St. Jay's CTE independent of the independent school, or is it part of, is it independent from

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: So the Linen Institute and St. John's Brake Academy, I think are the two schools, they share a CTE center. They are independent schools, but they host the CTE center. They are embedded within the school. So within the school you have the teacher who teaches, excuse me, French might not have the license that is required by the state of Vermont Department of Education, But anyone who teaches within the CTE center has to be a licensed educator. Because they're separate? Because CTEs are separate. CTE centers are, so anyone who teaches in the CTE center follows all of those same rules.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Okay.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: And so your point is that it's, so have you talked with the Ed Committee or?

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: There's talk, I have not personally, but the administration at the schools have. And unfortunately the tenor of, I think the vast majority of our legislators don't completely understand what Linden Institute and St. Helper Academy are and who they're serving. And there's this impression that there's discrimination and that they're just waiting to any public schools, private schools in there. 78% of Linden Institute students are below the poverty line. 25% are on IEPs. And they follow actually stricter regulations through the knee ask accreditation process. So that's another, I know we're not in education right now, but it's a problem. Think the CTE centers who we are putting through, they exist and they're great, but we need to make sure that they're functioning and that we're putting people through because it's not happening. We can investigate more what those reasons are, but they're not coming through. And I think the other piece about the Northeast Kingdom and on the Eastern side of the I-nineteen Corridor, there's a project on the Northeastern Vermont Regional Hospital campus. They have, I can't remember if it's how many acres that they have, but they wanted to dedicate towards housing and they've been trying to have it happen. They can't get developers to even work with them because they know that Vermont's reputation for building is just so appalling. And they're like, why would I even bother? Because I am just It's just easy to be in New Hampshire. And so we need to shift it and have our reputation be, I mean, it's the only solution.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Those are my ideas.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: Am working, truly I do have a plan. I've talked to all of, many of our municipalities, have a really good understanding of what are those four main downtown type areas that are higher density populations. And with Vermont State University right up the hill in dorms that should house 1,500 students and only have about 200 ideas for how that could drastically impact our region. But that's a conversation

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Well, we she'd love wanted to see your plan. You talked about before our Saint Jay, London,

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: what? The The Newport.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: So Saint Ludwig?

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: Hardwick. Hardwick.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: So those that have designated downtowns are St. Johnsbury, Hardwick and Newport. Linden has a village, but they are currently working for that downtown center, they are in that process.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Great. Well, thank, yes, you have a question. Well, thank you.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I've been talking about rural Vermont for the last three years, and so it's really refreshing to have somebody really bring light to that. I can talk all

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: day. So

[Unidentified Committee Member]: you had read some language from a colleague. Are you able to also submit that?

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: Yes, I can resend what Yeah, I'll resend it as soon as I'm out.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Would be perfect.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: Can I ask

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: who? Matteo Kaylor from Jasper Hill. He's in Greensboro. He's very much part of the Greensboro project that failed. Which he's Familiar.

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: Jazz for

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: hip oh, Loves a Sleeper.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. That's my favorite.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: Oh. Isn't it good?

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Would say, also, there are bills that are floating around here on rural finance that are still What's happening is, the fifteenth, we still have the ability to just put stuff in bills.

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: After

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: the fifteenth, then the bills have to be completed, sent to a committee, and then once they're in a committee, the committee can change the bill, but the easiest time to change bills is right now. Any I

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: I thought believe January 2 was the deadline for Guess what? It's the fifteenth. Well,

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Wait. Make a short form. It about housing, and it it was very long. It could be short form, but bills that are already being drafted by ledge counsel, ledge counsel is operating as if it could just operate through That's

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: great to hear, they're

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: busy. Yeah,

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: they're incredibly busy. But anyway, now is the time for concrete ideas, okay? Great.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: Do you want me to formalize these any further? Like, say, put this in If the you need language. Sure. Maybe prioritize.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay. I like a good prioritized list. Okay.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Great, thank you for coming.

[Laurelie, Executive Director, Northeast Kingdom Chamber of Commerce]: And I am 100% sure of the CTE and how that differs

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: in our independent schools. Great, thank you.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: You, I bet you'll be back.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Members of the community, it is 11:00. I know we need a break and we're gonna get up I

[Unidentified Committee Member]: said it's okay. We can get up

[Kathleen Burke, Executive Director, Vermont State Housing Authority]: So for would

[Rep. Mary E. Howard (Clerk)]: you Please.

[Rep. Marc Mihaly (Chair)]: Come back in ten minutes. Nine minutes.