Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Good afternoon. Welcome to the House Environment Committee. We are, take looking at amendment on s three twenty five from representative Dobrevich.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Welcome.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Thank you. Representative Joshua Dobrevich from Williamstown, thank you for allowing me to present this amendment to you this afternoon. It should look extremely familiar to you all. It was in the original Senate version that came over to the House. The only parts that have changed is the date is to 01/01/2031. And the final sentence, however, the legislative body of a municipality may vote to not grant the exemption for individual projects. So what's the amendment do makes the interim act to 50 housing exemptions establish an act 181 more inclusive by allowing communities with designated centers without permitted permanent zoning or subdivision bylaws to benefit from the interim exemptions. Amendment provides an opportunity for a municipality to opt to opt out of this benefit, putting it fully in their hands So around the concerns of not having zoning, still allows the municipality to make that final decision on what is right for their community. And that's simply as I can, especially since you've all read it once or twice or a dozen times prior, minus that info.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Alright. Does the do members have questions for the representative? Yeah. Representative.

[Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: I appreciate having this extra sentence, which gets at some of the concerns that we've heard on this committee corrupt. I'm wondering how it would work in practice. When would such I guess I have a couple of questions. When would such a vote take place? And how would the municipality know when they would need to invoke this option that we'd be granting them to object?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Once the project would be brought forth, they would under act two fifty, and they would they would be able to or under this exempt these exemptions, these interim exemptions, they would then call a vote on it. And so it would have to be brought to the select board prior to do so.

[Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: If they're exempt, would they not receive notification?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: I'm not a 100% certain.

[Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: It just seems like this would be a come a potentially problematic process.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: But by doing what you're going to be doing if you don't do this, is you're going to be exempting 60 municipalities from any of these interim exemption benefits, which mostly in rural communities. So you're taking these interim benefits away exemptions away from these rural communities, but you're going to let all of these other municipalities such as Williston, Burlington, Middlebury all enjoy these interim exemptions if necessary.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: I'm a little confused. I didn't think those 60 municipalities already have these exemptions. So how are we taking them away?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: So there are 60 municipalities that don't have a zone. So based on what is you guys are presenting, they would not qualify for the interim exemptions.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: They never did.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: They should.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: So that's different. That just I thought I I think. I just heard you say that we were taking them away and just not taking

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: them not taking away. You took them away with the writing of the previous legislation. This is giving it back to them so they can enjoy the same benefits that these other municipalities have. And you're allowing their select board to make the final decision, which isn't zoning, but allows the town to have say over there what they need.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Yeah. I I do appreciate that last sentence addresses that Quite

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: a bit. Almost not. Some of

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: the issues, but not all of them.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: I would I would say

[Kate Logan (Member)]: compensate. But they never had these exemptions.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: We would are correct. They've never had them. So legislature took them away from them when they wrote the original logic legislation.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: They had?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: They no. They just never gave it to them. I mean, they gave it to everybody else, but they didn't give it to 60 rural communities.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: We didn't take anything

[Kate Logan (Member)]: away. They just

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: didn't clarification. Think so I could just think that one second. Go ahead. Are you, representative Delberidge, referring to the s three twenty five that's passed by the senate? Yes. Yes. And it came to us. Okay. Think

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: that's Sorry. My apologies because that is

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: No problem. Just wanna clarify for

[Kate Logan (Member)]: the record that these municipalities never

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: had these exemptions before.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: This would be a new change in law, this session. Yeah. Didn't you you're from the town that that voted this down, this development down? The development like this town?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: No. They did not vote it down. This is there is a development there is a development proposed in the in Williamstown that is going through all that is going through this process and going through the process. And based on, we don't have any zoning, full stops us based on the current law. Should it be there? This is something like our town needs, and so as many other rural town needs more housing, more affordable housing. As the law is written and and what you're proposing, towns like Williamstown will never be able to take advantage of these interim exception exceptions, which is not quite which isn't fair to rural communities.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Do you know why your

[Kate Logan (Member)]: town doesn't have zoning?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: I don't necessarily know why they don't have zoning. It's not a conversation I've had with the town office.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Do you know how many active 50 permits are in your town? No. Members have questions. Representative Labor.

[Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, chair. I'm not somebody with Wingstop. Stop talking.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Can you just talk or meet it?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: It's right down the road.

[Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Three or five members to flood port. I said five. Five members. Thank you.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative North.

[Rob North (Member)]: Oh, I was just gonna ask you if you could thank you for your presentation. Fill us in a little bit more on sounds like there is a specific

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: My understanding is there's

[Rob North (Member)]: Sorry. For not being out of work. What what's the situation?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: My understanding is there is a proposed project I can't get off the ground because of rules outlined in here that would provide significant for my town, being as small as this, some significant extra housing within the town. I don't know a ton about the project. That's not I brought this because I see the need not for Williamstown, but for all the 60 rural towns that don't have zoning.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Is an example in your town? Is this a project that would like to get started in Houston because they don't have the exemptions? Is that what I'm hearing you say?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Correct. And even if we had zoning with the timeframe you guys propose of 2027, they would likely never get the all of the permits that currently are required by the state and federal to get all those permits together in that short period of time. Even if Williamstown tomorrow created zoning for the downtown area by 2027, which is language in your in your proposal or in the bill that's on the floor, they would probably never have the time in a year and a half to get those permits.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Representative Chapin? I guess I'm still trying to clarify this, but we're pretty sure that you don't need to have your permits done by them. You need to just have applied for an act.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: It's just what I'm being told by people who are close to the project. As I said, I'm not my my purpose here is not for the project in my town. The purpose of being here is for the 60 rural communities that don't have zoning that are exempt from these interim exemptions of that we give to other municipalities that's not really inclusive of all of our municipalities within the state.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: And have you talked to the 60 municipalities?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: I have not.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: But you're confident that they I I guess I I look at this a little differently, I guess, where these are folks who have relied on Act two fifty for development review for over fifty years, probably. And I think the issue, the word for me that resonates is blindsided, that the residents of these towns are not expecting to have large developments proposed and then not reviewed by act two fifty. And we just we just actually heard on the floor testimony from a district commissioner about how easy it was for them to get a permit for wedding venues. Developments have happened across the state in Vermont under act two fifty quite successfully for over 50.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Have a zoning?

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: All over the state. The whole state is actually currently subject to act two fifty regulation.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Right. But I'm talking about the interim exemptions that towns without zoning are not or not do not get currently. That's what that's what I'm specifically talking about.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Austin.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: I'm just can you build housing and infrastructure?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: So to take advantage of the interim exemptions.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: No. No. Before. But

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: I'm I believe you can. And what to what extent, I am not certain.

[Kate Logan (Member)]: But you could.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: I I

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Could and be a tier one a town if you wanted to.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: But there are towns that are not. So you that choice. Right? No. That I I don't know that that's their choice. They were put in a bucket when this one one eighty one was written of one a one b. So that was

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: He was a cop.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Not their choice.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: But they had a choice up before one eighty one was written to build housing and infrastructure.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Sure. So we're saying that we're not gonna allow we're gonna we're gonna make it so it's harder for them. They have to conform to what to zoning, which in a few years, in theory, there's going to be future land use maps and all this will be moved. This is just interim exemptions. We're trying to help these towns in this short period of time until that all happens. So we're arguing that we're not going to do that. That makes when we have a housing shortage.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: You can pull policies.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: I I can't. Now

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: it's stopping a municipality from building infrastructure from housing.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: We're stopping them from taking advantage of exemptions that Burlington can get, Middlebury can get.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: They just millions of dollars investing in.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Some of these small towns can't afford to go through all of that, so this is helping them create some housing. So I'm not gonna keep going back and forth.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: No, that

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: doesn't sense. You.

[Kate Logan (Member)]: Am I correct in thinking that without any development review, housing, like up to 50 units of housing could be built in a place that has no sewer infrastructure?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: So so you're still keeping the public sewer and water services.

[Kate Logan (Member)]: But it says that it can be up to a quarter mile away from that. That's how I'm reading it. Am I correct?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Within a quarter mile that has public water too.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: It's not a public service.

[Kate Logan (Member)]: It's just unclear to me whether that applies to the area where it would where the development would be taking place. Or

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: So you're saying that it would have to have public water

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: and sewer.

[Kate Logan (Member)]: It says within one one quarter mile of a place that does have water and sewer.

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: Correct.

[Kate Logan (Member)]: So a quarter mile away from water and sewer. Actually, is it okay if I ask Ellen? I'm having a hard time.

[Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. It may be, in

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: fact, time to hear from Ellen. So maybe we'll invite Ellen to join us. Thank you.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Check out the official legislative council.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. You will recall this language is similar to what you reviewed from the floor amendment from the Senate. So the language around the area. So, yes, no permanent permanent amendment is required for construction of 50 units or fewer housing with at least 20% of units with mixed income or mixed use development located within areas of a designated village center and within one quarter mile of its boundary served by public sewer or water services or soils that are advocate for wastewater disposal? I don't know. I raised this issue previously that I think it is unclear to what that served by is modifying if it's modifying the village center is served by sewer and water or if the area around the village center is served by sewer and water.

[Kate Logan (Member)]: Clarify it. So this is saying that it must be served by sewer and water.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: I think I'd have to think about you'd have to rearrange the sentence, I think. But

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Do you know what page is that on this in the Senate

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: bill? Yes. It's in the I I think it is. Okay. In the Senate bill, it was it's in 6081 after the other interim exemptions. It is on page seven.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: And representative do do dobrypich, why you changed the date to 2031?

[Rep. Joshua Dobrevich (Williamstown)]: The municipalities are

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: typically not developers. Do members have questions for Ellen? We're bound to be in support of it.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Representative Morris. Thank you.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Chair. Alan, if this amendment was to go through, what are the for and the proposal is for 60 communities with expellees that don't have zone, etcetera.

[Kristi Morris (Member)]: But if this goes through, how could it apply to the

[Kristi Morris (Member)]: communities that have zone? Would they be exempt, or would they still have to go through?

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. So this doesn't mention either way.

[Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: It is really cool.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: So I think it would include those who do have zoning and those that do not.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: So would It would with this section, would we wanna clarify that It's only for biomedical policy. It will apply to communities that don't have zoning regulations

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Or I guess for me, this is like another one I was seeing where we didn't take testimony from towns that would be affected by it. We've been hearing a lot from communities about concerns of making changes that they're not aware of. And this is a pretty big change for those communities. Representative Logan?

[Kate Logan (Member)]: Yeah. And I am I am concerned about the equity implications of this because it's just very it's not very well defined what these kinds of housing projects would be, and then they would receive no develop review. I just yeah. And then the date alone would have to change. I mean, there are just a lot of pieces here that

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: And how would a town vote?

[Kate Logan (Member)]: Yeah. And how would a town

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: may vote. May vote to not grant

[Kate Logan (Member)]: the exemption? So they're selected

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: to vote. The municipality doesn't have to vote. Yeah.

[Kate Logan (Member)]: They'd have to know about the project. But if they don't have the If they don't have authority to go over review, then they won't necessarily know about it till after the project's funded and started or something like that. I don't I don't know. There's just something off about it. I'd like support the goal to build affordable housing.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Sacramento.

[Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Just wanted to comment on a couple of pieces, which is that the about the about there being the possibility of a vote. If if I was a developer and and I was looking to get started the process of getting permits, this would be a a a really big hurdle potentially. You wouldn't know in advance how a select board is gonna vote. Like, you could think you're gonna know, and then in March, the select board changes, and then they suddenly say, actually, we don't like this project, and we're gonna not allow it to proceed. So I'm I'm not sure that this would actually give most municipalities the kind of it would give them the authority, but it would be it would be a very sort of uncertain in in terms of its effect. It would create a lot of uncertainty from a developer's point of view for sure. And I I as a developer, I think it would be really hard to wanna go ahead with a project in one of these areas knowing that it could be stopped by a simple, in some cases, two to one vote of a small select board at any time. And then the other part here is I think just harkening back to the debate we had when this came up previously, that this seems to be a change in policy that would be very much aimed at a particular project in a particular location without considering the effects on the rest of the state who would be affected. And in general, it seems like it's not great policy to be having a single project being driving changes in statute.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Tagliavia.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Thank you. If I could just ask representative Satcowitz to just to clarify, did you say that one select board could negate a vote of another of a previous select board? Is that what you just said in in part of your concern?

[Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: They they certainly could. Yeah. Yeah. Select boards can't bind future select boards. It's like legislatures can't So

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: you're saying that a project could be started? There'd be a hole in the ground in a foundation and a select board could try to stop that?

[Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. According to this wording, that's what it certainly seems like to me.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Any other questions for Ellen? If you have any more comments, you're ready to vote. All those in. Just waiting for my copy of the amendment. Keep track of what's going on. Favor of this event.

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Favor? Yeah.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: All I'll let's hold this to be set up. I think seven. All

[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: right, thank you. I think folks

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: will be having amendments. I don't have any more for today. Stay in touch. With that, we will adjourn.