Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: Right.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Right. Welcome back to the House Committee on Environment. We are now looking at draft 7.1 of s three twenty five with our legislative council.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: I'll check as the office of legislative council. As you know, there's only a few things that changed in this draft. I took the language that representative North presented to you. I'm sorry. I don't have the copy in front of me yet. And then also there were changes to the DHCD housing report.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: It's online. Walk us through. Alright. Page 11. Page 11.

[Rep. Ela Chapin (Member)]: Thank you. Mhmm.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. Yes. Oh, and just a small flag, I did change on page 10 in the duty section of the oversight committee shall to two. So it's the committee shall work with A and R and two coordinate efforts to further improvement for further improvements.

[Rep. Ela Chapin (Member)]: And I do think two is a good subject there.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: So so on page section 11, here's the language that Representative North presented to you, and I did hopefully organize it by timeline. So the land use review board shall deliver a report that shall collect the data and analyze whether and how Act two fifty jurisdiction over commercial activities on farms should be revised, including accessory on farm businesses on or before 11/15/2026, the effects of Act two fifty mitigation actions on primary agricultural soils on or before 07/01/2027, and the effects of jurisdictional triggers, including Criterion 9L on the development of retail and service businesses outside village centers and addressing sprawl and strip development, and how to improve the effectiveness of criterion nine l on or before 11/15/2027.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Representative, I think that one is really different than two and three. One is seems like it's asking for policy recommendations and two and three are really are just reporting on what do we know about what's going on. And so in that context, then number one is really it's hard for me to connect to collect data and analyze. You're going to probably have some data analysis in terms of how you're going to then make policy, but that's not really the point of one. It's really about what ought we be doing about these on farm businesses.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Well, I think there is data to figure out how many on farm businesses there are and what type they are and I know what spectrum they span in terms of the type of business, but also the amount of income because we keep using that as some sort of potential tool to manage them. It's a trigger or a limiter or something. Yeah. In terms of defining commercial nonagricultural commercial use, we keep going back to that. So I do think I I shared your concern exactly when I read

[Rep. Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: it first and when I dealt with.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: That is what we're asking them to do.

[Rep. Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Representative Austin? I'm just wondering about the date. Is that enough time?

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I think so. They said they'd already started it. Sarah had? Sarah had, Land Use Review Board. I just wanna bring up under three the wording. Nine L is a criterion and not jurisdictional trigger, and the way that that is worded would seem to indicate that it's potentially a jurisdictional trigger. It's true. It's not a good way

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: to And instead of including or something like that.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: That's your specific jurisdiction.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I said including before. But could we go back to representative Satcowitz's point first? So we're talking about whether or not it sets I'm okay with one the way it is. And the representatives from the Land Use Review Board November 15 for the Accessory on Farm Business report is realistic for you? Yes. Okay. Great. You're okay with is everyone okay with one?

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Just just like this, that

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: really not called the screening.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: But No. That's okay. It's all if people feel like it it works anyway.

[Rep. Ela Chapin (Member)]: Hope their recommendations are data driven. Yes. Sure. Exactly. Yeah.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative North.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: Just a grammatical thing, and little a started out at since it's titled reports, should it ask, plural, deliver a report that shall, or should it be deliver reports that?

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Not that I care, but They're individual. So I think, It would be awkward if we said shall deliver reports. The title is reports. Yeah. That's fine. You're right.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: That's fine. Either one. Yeah. Okay. I just wanna be grammatically correct, whichever is grammatically correct.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: English teacher?

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Math teacher,

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: Aerospace engineering is just as much copying a lawyer as it

[Rep. Ela Chapin (Member)]: is an engineer, frankly.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: There's so much speculation involved. Shall deliver reports. I think Oh, wait. We're also going to drop a shell. Sorry. The land use review board shall deliver reports that collect the data and analyze.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: Yeah. Make reports plural and Yeah. Get rid the a. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Good.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Okay. And then in sub three, what change are you recommending, Ellen, after hearing that?

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: Including to and? So the effects of jurisdictional triggers and Criterion 9L on development?

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Sorry, say that again.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: The effects of jurisdictional triggers and criterion 9L on the development of retail and service businesses outside of centers. Peter Gilman.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: I Just going back to number one, you had said something, and I'm sorry, didn't quite hear in terms of the data that you were interested in relating related to that. Is there if there's anything more specific that you'd want in terms of data related to that, it'd be helpful either to have it clear on the record or put into that section just so we know what you're looking for there exactly.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yeah, sure. So what I said was we're talking about the types of data that might be collected for that, and I think an inventory of existing on farm businesses and the types of businesses they are, and to the extent possible, the incomes from on farm and off farm or, you know, the revenue from on farm and off farm because those are the things people keep bringing up when we talk about whether a business is really an accessory on farm business or a separate commercial entity. And that's what we're trying to parse out. Representative Chapin.

[Rep. Ela Chapin (Member)]: While we're discussing that, I mean, I'm not as familiar as the chair on sort of how this works with act two fifty, but I am very familiar with accessory on farm businesses. Guess I would be expecting to get information like, this is how many jurisdictional opinions we issued on accessory on farm businesses, and the kinds of businesses that they were, and which kinds we said were not jurisdictional versus were. I that's I'd be interested in understanding where accessory on farm businesses are falling into Act two fifty or not. Yeah.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: And the contested cases. Sarah had blamed the interview board. Just to be clear, though, we can't inventory exempt AOFBs because we don't know about them. So we'll be inventorying the ones that we do know about.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: JOs, sure, yes. Right, and there might be some JOs that would show that it was exempt, but there may be many others where they just don't request a JL. Yes. Yes, we understand. Yeah. Okay, great.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah, and accessory on farm business has only been part of Act two fifty jurisdiction analysis for the last two years. Prior to that, it was really a creature of municipal law. So there may be Before that was an analysis of whether something was farming or commercial business. So But I think you did already talk about that initially in the Accessory on Farm Business report a couple years ago. So it's a little murky.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Logan?

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: Yes. Thanks. I was just curious. I mean, it's actually been a while since we've talked about accessory on farm businesses, And I'm trying to recall if there's any other agency regulating accessory on farm businesses, like the health department, for

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: example. Potentially, yes. And the Agency of Agriculture issues guidance for farms looking to develop an accessory on farm business about what the municipal law requires. And then it is slightly different for Act two fifty exemptions.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: Looks like there are some stakeholders that could be engaged there too. Representative Chapin.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: would invite our committee to receive a link to that report from a few years ago, and or maybe if we have time later this session to speed a little bit on it. Yeah,

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: All right, moving on. Representative Austin?

[Rep. Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Just real quickly, I'd be curious about any legal actions that were taken against on the phone businesses from neighbors, due to noise. And I'm sure it's in Act two fifty, but I'd just like to see if there were a lot, just with you, and if it did go to court, what was the outcome?

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Right. So this sort of contested or litigated on both sides from the applicant's point of view or non applicant's point

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: of view and the neighbors' of view. Yeah. Yep.

[Rep. Ela Chapin (Member)]: Is it okay if we don't put all that data in the bill?

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: No, it's been helpful. Yes, thank you. Yeah, great. Thank you for asking. All right.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: And then I think the only other change yes. The only other change oh, two changes on page 27. So on page 27, this is the annual report for the Community Investment Program. I removed the five year There is now an implied five year expiration on this report because I moved the statutory reference. Next, the only the last changes are in Section 21, the Municipal Appeals and Discretionary Review of Housing Report. So on page 27 in the list of stakeholders, the Vermont Realtors Association and Vermonters for a Clean Environment have been added. And then the report details have been rewritten. So, broke They've been all sort of broken out. So, They shall report on the following mechanisms for limiting appeals of municipal permits while allowing municipalities to address legitimate concerns with projects, including most commonly raised issues on appeal and an evaluation of statutory or procedural tool tools to limit duplicative or frivolous appeals and recommended action recommended legislative action if needed, if any, the impacts of discretionary review on residential development. On to page 28, the potential value of the federal right to build zone legislation and steps that the state can take to maximize that value. Assistance the state can offer municipalities seeking to limit discretionary review, including incentives, planning, and whether the state should develop objective standards, including model codes. So that was the rewrite of the one you had saw. I didn't I didn't entirely know what planning means here.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: But I

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: guess actual assistance with plan? Planning assistance. Okay. And then number five is new. So, the reports will include data on housing that has been built in the areas exempt from Act two fifty jurisdiction under 10 VSA 6,081 DD, the interim housing exemptions, including how many units, the price, and where, and then status update of eight

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: zero two homes. That's something that I've mentioned a couple times and forgot to get in there. Think it's really important. But we also talked about having it be oh, yeah. That's the right timing.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: Yeah. And

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I guess if the exemptions go away, it would no longer be in the report. We can leave it the way it is. Okay, so there's a minor change that we asked for of tips. What

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: page remind me?

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: Page 11. So,

[Rep. Ela Chapin (Member)]: I think

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: there's just a couple of changes on page 11, but otherwise.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Find us what the change on page 11 is.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: So on page 11, I'm going to change it, into the one we were talking about. So reports, deliver reports such that collect and analyze data?

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: Yes.

[Ellen (Legislative Counsel)]: And then including to and and I'm taking out the comma after nine.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I think maybe we should just go make those changes and go back. Okay. Thank you. I would love to.