Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Great. Welcome back to the House Environment Committee. We are going to continue our walkthrough with our legislative council of S3 25, starting on page 18 of as passed the Senate.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Ellen Tchaikowski, Office of Legislative Counsel. So S three twenty five, page 18. So when I left off this morning, we were discussing section 12, which amends 24 VSA forty three forty eight a, which are the required elements of a regional plan. So then this section There are changes in this section that were proposed by the planners to what the future land use map land use categories. And so there's a couple of changes within here. As I mentioned previously on page 18, it describes that the land use element shall contain the following land uses, and it adds the reference to smart growth principles so that it moves up from farther down in the section. And then the first category that the regional plan maps have to have are downtown or village centers. And so I'm gonna read the whole paragraph. These areas are the mixed use centers bringing together community economic activity and civic assets. They include downtowns, village centers, and new town centers previously designated under chapter 76 a, and downtown and village centers seeking benefits under the community investment program in 5408 5804. The downtown and village centers are the traditional or historic central business and civic centers within planned growth areas, village centers, or may stand alone. So I wanna stop there because I I skipped over this this morning when we were going a little bit fast. It previously has read that they that these areas include the traditional and historic centres. That is being switched to or historic centres. And I think that the planners propose this because not all towns have a historic center within them, especially some of the newer towns. And so this is to be more inclusive of towns that have different or who may be newer or in establishing newer centers. Then there's the new sentence on line 19. Municipalities may have more than one center, including new including planned, new or emerging centers that anchor planned growth or village areas. Village centers are not required to have public water, wastewater, zoning, or subdivision bylaws. Onto the top of page 19. It is the intent that most towns in Vermont have at least one village center in which additional housing units are supported.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Where did that language come from?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I do believe that came from a proposal from the the planners. And then the land use review board responded to their proposal. And so I do I think this this language originated with the planners, and then also Senate Natural did tweak it slightly. So It's kind of odd

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: to have intent in the middle of statute. Is it unusual?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Not necessarily. Suspect this is coming out of practical experience they have had recently as they are developing these categories and the question of will every town have a center.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So the question is, does every town have a village center right now?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think there's only two thirty. Although that number that number is out of date because I haven't

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Also, could have a downtown and no village center. So I'm curious how many have neither, not just big. Not every town has both, but some some do. And

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: so the next category land use category is planned growth areas. These areas include the high density existing settlement and future growth areas with high concentrations of population, housing, and employment in each region and town as appropriate. They mix they include a mix of historic and nonhistoric commercial, residential, and civic or cultural sites with active streetscapes supported by land development regulations, public water or wastewater or both, and multimodal transportation systems. These areas include growth centers and neighborhood development areas previously designated under chapter 76 a of this title. So it is striking reference to these areas, including new town centers, downtowns, and village centers. And I believe and you should hear from the planners on this. I believe what they're initially, it was considered that the planned growth areas would be overlays on top of the centers and would be, like, over them and then perhaps extend farther than the centre and would align with new town centres or town towns and village centres. But I think that they are proposing that instead these are wraparound areas that don't include those core centers. So they would just include what were traditionally the growth centers and neighborhood development areas. I think that is the proposal, but you should hear more.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: And

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: then the last sentence, these areas should generally meet the following criteria. And it's striking the reference to the SMART Growth Principles because it's moved up in this section. So they still will have to modify the smart growth principles. So there are a number of criteria for the planned growth areas. A couple of them are changing. So on line 15, the area is generally compact and has multi moat multimodal connection to the municipalities or an adjacent municipality's downtown or village center, striking reference to new town center or growth center, and also striking the phrase walking distance. There have been concerns that that is ableist as a unit of measurement, walking measure or walking distance. So instead, areas that have compact and multimodal connections, which could include walking or biking or other modes of transportation other than a car.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Logan. Is

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: there a reason why it doesn't specify that multimodal doesn't mean cars? It doesn't mean only cars. It means multiple modes of transportation. Prior, cars were excluded. Because of walking distance? It's not that cars were excluded. The intent is that they be close to each other. In some I believe when we had this conversation two years ago, it was about there is sometimes assumed a distance of a quarter of a mile or there's some planners use half of a mile. So there isn't could go with a defined distance of feet to sort of indicate how close things are. You but I don't I don't think it necessarily has to do with it just being car as opposed to just compact and has connections for access.

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: I was reading that they were striking that because walking distance to one person would be completely different than walking distance to another person. I think cabled is the

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: term. Yeah. But now multimodal means it could be a short route too.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Be a

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: less than five minute drive.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: It'd be a long bus ride.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Or a long bus ride. Yeah, it's different.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Alright. Boost. It's a little fuzzy. Alright.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So at the bottom of page 19, still under planned growth areas. The area provides opportunity for development, infill develop infill development and redevelopment that is needed to meet the regional and municipal housing targets that meet the present and future needs of a diversity of social and income groups in the community. So at the top of page 20, it provides for, I guess, just adding additional details of what these areas are.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I guess we've officially adopted housing parties.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. And Yes. In this chapter, chapter 117, as part of the adoption of both regional plans and municipal plans, there is a required housing element that is supposed to incorporate the housing targets that are published by the Department of Housing and Community Development. And I can get back to you with that citation. I think it is in it might actually be in this statute forty three forty eight a. They have to address it in the housing element.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah. That's fine. Okay.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And there is a bill currently that has additional detail around the housing targets and being included as an additional requirement in the housing element of a municipal plan. So S three twenty eight has language about providing even further detail related to the housing targets as they're adopted. Alright. On page 20, line three, still in under planned growth areas, the area is served by planned or existing transportation infrastructure that conforms with complete streets principles just as described in '19 BSA chapter 24 and establishes pedestrian access directly to the downtown or village center, and their striking new town center. Planned transportation infrastructure includes those investments included in a municipality's capital improvement program. And I'm I'm not remembering why they want to strike the town center, but, again, this was part of the the planner's proposal. Next is the village areas, land use category. These areas include the traditional settlement area or proposed new settlement area, typically composed of a cohesive mix of residential, civic, religious, commercial, or mixed use buildings arranged along a main street and intersecting streets that are compact and have multimodal connections for residents who live within and surrounding the downtown center or village center. And it's striking the language that these areas include the existing village center designation and similar areas statewide, but it's larger than the village center designation. I think they're striking this because the village center designation is being phased out, and so that's sort of an outdated reference.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: If they don't have multimodal options.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That is so these land use categories are reviewed by the regional planning commissions as they develop the land use maps to identify what areas qualify for each category. And so if an area didn't have, as it currently stands, streets that you know, the the business areas that are within walking distance from the core, that may mean that that area doesn't actually qualify as a village area for that.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: It doesn't have multimodal connections. It wouldn't necessarily fall off of

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. It would be mapped as something else, possibly, like a transition zone or an enterprise area. There's a couple other categories that if they're not previously, we were using sort of the walkable standard, but if they're not walkable, they would not qualify as this category.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Definition of multimodal connection?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. Not that I'm aware of. So next at the bottom of page 20, village centers shall meet the following criteria. The municipality has either, they're striking municipal for public water or wastewater. If no public water or wastewater is available, the area must have soils that are adequate for wastewater disposal.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Water is available, they must have soils that are adequate for wastewater. I would hope they would have to have soils or wastewater whether there was public water or not. Oh, if no public water or wastewater. So you could have public water, but not have soils that were proper for disposal.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Makes sense.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Still under village areas at the top of page 21, the area has some opportunity for infill development or new development areas where the village can grow, support the development of housing to meet the regional and municipal housing targets, and be flood resilient.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: This is all the village centers in

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: village areas? These are village areas, which are different than village centers.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: The

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: next category that is being amended on page 21 is subsection j, rural conservation areas. These are areas of significant natural resources identified by the regional planning commissions or municipalities based on existing ANR mapping that require special consideration for aquifer protection, for wetland protection, for the maintenance of forest blocks, wild life habitat, and habitat connectors, or for other conservation purposes. And striking the last two sentences. So it's striking that the mapping of these areas and accompanying policies are intended to help meet 30 by thirty and fifty by 50, which are 10 BSA chapter 89. And any portion of this area that is approved by the Land Use Review Board as having tier three area status shall be identified on the future land use map as an overlay upon approval. So, again, this came from the planners. I think they're having with the second sentence, I think they're having a little bit of an issue because the they're finishing up their maps right now, but tier three isn't done. So they they don't want to currently be required to to cover that on their maps currently. And then they're also striking the reference about having the areas help meet 30 by thirty, fifty by 50.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yeah. Noise happening outside.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Thank you.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alright. So the last part is at the bottom, page 21 here. With the exception of preexisting nonconforming designations approved prior to the establishment of the state community investment program, The areas eligible for designation benefits under that program upon the Land Use Review Board's approval of a Regional Plan Future Land Use Map for designation as a downtown center or village center shall not include development that is disconnected from a downtown or village center and that is that lacks an existing or planned pedestrian connection to the center via a complete street. I think the language here is just clarifying for for grammar. It's clarifying that this is about the state community investment program and the benefits under that program for the designation of downtown center or village center. And then also, I'll just point out that this language or nearly identical language appears in the investment the state community investment programs statute also. And so the language in that statute is being struck because they considered it redundant because it is here as well. But this section generally is about the fact that there are some nonconforming designations that would not be eligible for benefits under the new program, but for the fact that they are already existing as the new program takes effect. And so the indication here is, I think, is that as RPCs continue to develop the maps, there shouldn't be additional nonconforming communications that are sprawled, that are disconnected from a downtown or a village center.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Being struck in this bill or in another place?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Far farther in the bill. Alright. So on page 22, section 13, this is the definition of 40 the definition section forty three zero three of the planning and zoning chapter, chapter one seventeen, where the regional planning and municipal zoning language exists. The definition of smart growth principles is being added here because currently, the definition of SMART Growth Principles is in chapter 76 a, and that chapter is being has a sunset of 2034. So there was concern that the there was initial concern that it had already been repealed and that the smart growth principles went away. That's not true. That sunset doesn't take effect for another eight years. So they are still there, but now they're being added to another statue that's more durable. Yes. Representative North has a question.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yeah. Sorry. I hate to

[Rob North (Member)]: go backwards, but in the section, very end previous section where there was subsection J, there were like three stars above that, and subsection J is rural conservation. It seems that so there are at least J different categories, types of areas. Of species. Yeah. That's quite a few. Just wondering, could we get some kind of a table that lists them all and here's the properties they have, check about how do

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: they relate to one another? Different? Are they you know what I'm saying? Yes. I'm sure we can get that. So we'll have the RPCs in who have been spearheading this next to help us or assume to help us understand their changes. That, yes, they have that because they work closely together to develop them, to get them all on the same page.

[Rob North (Member)]: I realize we're making changes to some of

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: them here, but I don't know

[Rob North (Member)]: what all of them are.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: To know It's how do they relate to it.

[Rob North (Member)]: Why are we making changes to some of them?

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I'm curious about the required sections. Gregory, it's like, yep, they're all required, but they might not all apply to your town. So I want to hear about where does it require them?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I did not see his testimony, but when you amended this statute in act one eighty one, the purpose of having these 10 land use categories was because previously, the RPCs, when they made their maps, they did not use these terms. And so these are the types of areas that could be identified on a regional plan map, but not all area types will be in every town.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So that was my understanding. That is not what Peter said today.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Oh, okay.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So I wanna explore that. Oh, okay. That's not what I heard to say. Did others hear something different? I think, like, anyway, I don't know if anyone's out there that's not. Okay.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: But yes, the ellipses indicate that you're only amending three of the categories, there are 10. So the others are not changing or proposed to be changed as of this moment. So on page 22, the definition of start growth principles, I believe it is identical to what already exists statute. As I think Senator Watson mentioned to you, there is a proposal to add to update this language in some way, but currently this is what the language says elsewhere.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Is it from who?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I think it is from BNRC or it's from the planners. I'm not I'm not sure. I think it might be BNRC.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: K.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So smart growth principles means growth that maintains the historic development pattern of compact village and urban centers separated by rural countryside, develops compact mixed use centers at a scale appropriate for the community and the region, enables choice in modes of transportation, protects the state's important environmental, natural and historic features, including natural areas, water quality, scenic resources, and historic sites and districts, serves to strengthen agricultural and forest industries and minimize conflicts of development with these industries, balances growth with the availability of economic and efficient public utilities and services. Onto page 23. Supports a diversity of viable businesses in downtowns and villages. Provides for housing that meets the need of a diversity of social and income groups in each community. Excuse me, and reflects a settlement pattern that at full build out is not characterized by scattered development located outside compact urban and village centers that is excessively land consumptive, development that limits transportation options, especially for pedestrians, the fragmentation of farmland and forest land, development that is not serviced by municipal infrastructure or that requires the extension of municipal infrastructure across undeveloped lands in a manner that would extend service to lands located outside compact village and urban centers, and linear development along well traveled roads and highways that lacks depth as addressed as measured from the highway.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: That's an insert from the planners? Or no. It's a copy over.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: There was a concern the concern was raised. Yes. So yes.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So already in statute, though.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It is already in statute. Yes.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Presented Awesome.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. I'm just this is this suggests, or is this mandated? The smart growth?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: The land use categories are supposed to comply with the SMART Growth Principles.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: The language and combine means Like, I would just say in Chester, you know, was something about scenic reefers and a group of people said they didn't want to develop somewhere because it blocked the vehicle and the language in our planning document that said that. That what this is saying? That's not what this is saying, right? You can't develop in places that have scenic views?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I don't think anything in there specific to scenic views. Indeed, so you can't resources. So I think you'll need to hear from a witness on this. Specifically, the Smart Growth Principles currently are in statute in the designated area program. So they're not currently required as part of municipal or regional planning specifically. I don't think required for municipal at all, but they've been used as the concept for how to identify what the compact areas are for designation. And so it's the very first one reflects what is one of the conservation and planning goals of the statue, which is historic development pattern of compact centers separated by rural countryside. So how specifically planners go about applying these principles when they're adopting planning is something you should probably hear more about from someone, not

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: me. Yeah.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: At the bottom of page 23, section 14, section 14 is a repeal. It is repealing 24 BSA 4,476, which is the the formal review of Regional Planning Commission's decisions. So the planners have proposed to repeal this statute in whole, because it the formal review of regional planning commission decisions, as far as I am aware, has not been happening because it previously done was done by a body that hasn't existed since 2010. And so I do think that this statute is superseded by the LERB process of doing regional plan review. You may wanna hear more about this. So let me take a step back. In act one eighty one, you gave oversight of regional plans to the Land Use Review Board because previously, there had been a body, the Council of Regional Commissions, that would review regional plans. However, that body was disbanded in 2010 and hasn't existed. It was repealed in statute. And so this statute, 4476, describes the review that that body would go through, but there hasn't been a body to do that in quite some time. There is but this statue is kind of long, and so there are other there are other it's long. You may want to consider if there are things I'm happy to come back and present it to you, but if there are things in there that you'll maybe want to save.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: think it does make sense and that potentially this should have been repealed in act one eighty one. I think it might have been an oversight, but Yeah.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Here, think. Representative Hoyt.

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Yes. Just a question. So this statute being appealed, it, like, lays out what these bodies do.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yes.

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: But the rebee bodies were were repealed by statute as well.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yes.

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: So it's it's describing functions of a a body that just doesn't exist in anywhere.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yes. Yes. So we repealed the body, but not the Yes. Yes. I guess you weren't here when we repealed it, neither was I, but I'd love to know. Yes. Remember it used to function. I do remember that.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: All right. Page 24, section 15. This is a session law provision. Any regional or municipal plan due to expire in 2026 shall have its expiration date extended until 12/31/2026. And this is somewhat tied to the fact that the regional plans are starting to go through the Land Use Review Board process, and some of them due to expire before the Land Use Review Board will finish their review. And then the same is true for municipal plans. And if the can't update its plan based on what's in the updated regional plan, there is some confusion about that. So this is just any of the ones that are due to expire this year still extend to the end of the year.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I believe they think that's enough time, but seems really short. I think I don't think it's enough And then what happens if they expire?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Not a ton.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Does it impact Act two fifty review? It might.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So you have to have a confirmed plan to qualify for the benefits of criterion 10.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yeah. We'll hear from them.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This was the request of the RPCs. All right, page 24, section 16. So here are some updates to the Community Investment Program. So I've referenced it a few times already today. The Community Investment Program is a successor program to the state designation program. Previously, there were five designated areas at the state level, downtowns, village centers, new town centers, and then also growth centers and neighborhood development areas. As part of Act 181, that program is being replaced by the Community Investment Program that now has three designations. So five designations are being condensed down into three downtown and village centers, planned growth areas, and neighborhoods. There are some inconsistencies in the language in this chapter, for the community investment program, chapter one thirty nine. This program is beginning to be ruled out, and I do think there is language that is inconsistent between the statutes. And so it that is part of the attempt in these sections that are being amended. And I did just also wanna flag that S-three 28 amends the next section we're gonna talk about because, the Department of Housing and Community Development has begun its work as part of the community investment program and has been finding little things they would like to fix to make it line up better. So they have one of the changes in s three twenty eight. It is not in here, and perhaps it should at least match.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: You've pointed out two things in s three twenty eight, and I think you mentioned to me that there were three. Yes. So just bring them into this bill in their entirety and then have them k. We'll talk.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So section 16 is amending the definition section for the community investment program. So first is the definition of planned growth area. So it's planned growth area means an area on the regional planned future land use map meeting the requirements of forty three forty eight a 12 b, and that may be designated as a neighborhood. When were draft when act 181 was being drafted, it was hard to line up exactly where these things how these things were gonna line up exactly. So in the prior sections, we were just discussing planned growth areas, and I do think it just makes sense to just have the cross reference to what that means in chapter 117 because it is then used here as part of identifying which areas are part of this designation program. So that's what it's doing. Next is the definition of sprawl repair, which means the redevelopment of lands with buildings, traffic and circulation, parking, or other land coverage in a pattern that is consistent with the smart growth principles. It's adding the cross reference to as defined in section forty three zero three, which is the one I just read to you.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Tagliavia? Do we have a definition of what sprawl is?

[Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: We we're paying for it?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Maybe. I I think there is a definition. I don't know if it's in this chapter, so I can get back

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: to you on that. Thank you.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Next, some more sort of cleanup, the definition of designated downtown center or village center or designated center. So I'll just add an editorial comment. When we were when you all were drafting January, the name of this designation changed multiple times and went back and forth between downtown core, downtown center, downtown village center. So I do think this is what they have landed on, which is designated downtown center or village center or designated center.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Sarita. Yes.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And I don't understand why

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: it has little designated center.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: They're just try I was I think I was trying to make designated center a I was trying to suggest that that would be an easy way to refer to these areas instead of saying designated downtown center or village center for ease of grammar. But I yeah. I'm not actually sure if designated center is used throughout. I also think it is slightly confusing that the name of the designation is the same name as a land use category. It's very well, I'm you all are are who are in charge of the amendments now. So if you wanna come up with a different title, you can.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Trying to figure out if it was help more help less confusing or more confusing.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So perhaps it's less confusing. I think it's a little confusing, but

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: we'll hear from them.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So there are some other changes in this definition. Designated center means a they're striking contiguous, a downtown or village, and striking that they have those areas have to be eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places. And so it's a downtown or village center approved as part of the Land Use Review Board review of regional plan and future land use maps. And so some of this is, again, condensing. This definition was doing a lot of describing, and there is a whole the next section of this bill is actually what those areas are. And so you don't need to do the full description of it in the definition because there's a statute that fleshes out what the other requirements are. It's being condensed for that purpose. And then same for the next definition two on page 25. So designated neighborhood or neighborhood means a village area or planned growth area approved as part of the LERB review of regional planned future land use maps and is contiguous to a center. And, that has its own statute in fifty eight zero four. And then village area means an area on a regional plan future land use map meeting the requirements of forty three forty eight a 12 c, and that may be designated as a neighborhood.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: You'd have a great chart during act one eighty one

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Oh, gosh.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Cochrane made us that lined everything up really Yeah. We need We may ask him to provide us with, another chart that will help us understand if this is clarifying or confusing. But wait. Does he still have that chart? Did he bring that in?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I don't know.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I can't see.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I have not been able to see most of the testimony on this bill, honestly. Well, and I think conceptually, I can so in creating this chapter, which is chapter 139,

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: I

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: framed it off of chapter 176A, which started by defining what the areas are, but then having their own statutes. And maybe you don't even actually need to have these as defined terms since there are individual statutes that define what the requirements are for each type of designation.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: It seems to me that the term designated will cover it. Your your downtown may or may not be enrolled in or engaged in a designation program. Right. So it would be like almost an overlay, for example, if you wanna just map it or whatever. Think about it that way. Yeah. And then we get potentially away from the confusion.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Right. I would believe it would be great.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Well and the community investment program is different from the designation program as it existed previously because there isn't a separate designation process. It all happens at the LERB review process of the RPC maps.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Based on the future land use categories?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Oh. And then there are some additional things about how you get each type of incentive that then the Department of Housing and Community Development does.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Wouldn't it then it makes sense to have the same terms?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. The same terms. Yes. There are step step benefits for each of them. And so, yeah, we could talk about more about how that works under act one eighty one. So on page 25, section 17, this is amending 24 VSA fifty eight zero three, the statute that establishes the designation of downtown and village centers. So designation established, the Regional Planning Commission may apply to the LERB for approval and designation of all downtown and village centers by submitting the Regional Planned Future Land Use Map adopted by the Regional Planning Commission. And so previously, it went to the state board, the state designation board as opposed to the Land Use Review Board. And then it is striking here that the map shall identify downtown centers and village centers and village areas as eligible for designation. The department and state board shall provide comments to the LERB and the regional planning commission on areas eligible for Senator's designation as provided in 04/1948 of this title. I can't remember why that language is being struck. You can hear more about that. And then on page 26, subsection c is being struck, and this is the language I referred to earlier, which is in subsection d of forty three forty eight a. They consider it redundant, so it is nearly identical to the language that's in forty three forty eight a.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: It's a morning project for me. Think

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: when we drafted it initially, you considered it belts and suspenders because forty three forty eight a establishes what the regional planning commissions are supposed to do when they identify these areas and to discourage the nonconforming sort of sprawl areas. And then this statute is about the community investment program and the board and identifying those areas for designation. And so it is kind of bootstraps that this language appears in both sections. But if it's considered redundant and unneeded, it's being struck here. You can make the opposite choice and strike it from d, I think, the other one too, but

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: yeah.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Right. One more section at the bottom, page 26, section 18, this is about the tax credits. So there is the Downtown and Village Center Tax Credit Program that exists, and you have to be a downtown or village center to qualify for access to these tax credits. That is one of the primary benefits of the community investment program slash designated area program. And here, under the prior program, the designated area program, downtowns and village centers were separate designation and so was new town centers. Downtown and village centers were the only ones that could qualify for these tax credits. New town centers could not apply. But since Newtown centers are actually being moved into the category of centers, a thing that is different about Newtown centers and the other things is that they are new and not historic. So they do not qualify for the tax credits because there is a historic designation requirement as part of that. And so this is adding clarity or attempting to add clarity to the statute on tax credits. Application shall be made in accordance with the guidelines set by the state board. The guidelines shall clearly indicate that only applications on to page 27 located in step two and step three state designated centers or step one centers where a portion of the designated center is listed or eligible for listing in the National Register of Historic Places shall be considered. So it's trying to clarify that even though under the new program there will be newer centers, in order to qualify for the tax credit programs, you have to be eligible for listing on the National Register of Historic Places. And so new town centers, just taking South Burlington as an example, most of those buildings in their new town center are not old enough to qualify for these tax credits.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: What about the tax credits? Like, what do municipal always have?

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So there are four different types. They're not for municipalities. They're for projects that are located in one of these designated areas, and there's four types of tax credits. There is the most recent one that you've created was the flood resiliency tax credit. There's also a facade tax credit, and there's there's one about elevators. I can get back to you. I don't have the four tax credits in front of me, but they're located in this chapter. So there's four types of tax credits. They have a set amount that, people can apply for, and there's a cap on the amount, that the state can issue each year. And is it to incentivize them to to whatever it is, whatever the tax credit is for? Yes. So advise investors. Yeah. Investors. Yeah. I mean, it is an incentive to the town to get this designation because it opens up access to tax credits for buildings within your your town, but only the development itself has the tax credits, not the town itself.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It seems like it would support the

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: credit. Yes. And then the effective date is on passage.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Other questions for Bill? Representative Hoyt? Yes. So we talked about one of

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: the things Bill does, particularly set with the road rules. It extends it out, like, to 2030. Mhmm. Was there any reason 2030 was chosen other than it's just a long time from

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: now? I don't know.

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: You know? I mean, I see some of the other ones, there was, like, a year extension when they had to get stuff done, which made some sense. Some of those were expiring, like, in 2026. But 02/30, I mean, moving something out for, like, four years is a lot.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Think the lurb asked for a shorter extension.

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Did they? Okay.

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, yes, I believe that the Land History Review Board did ask for an extension till 2028, which is why some of those dates are there. Oh, okay. And that the other dates were in negotiation on the committee. Gotcha.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: But were they the committee and Lerp were

[Ellen Tchaikowski (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. The committee itself negotiated between themselves. I believe the governor is the one who asked for third 2030, and so the committee had discussions about how what the length of time should be.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: The most Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So historically, I might ask you here, if it's four years, do people do a lot of, like, building roads to hurry up to get in? Totally, yep. Alright.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Thank you, Ellen. Yeah, thank you.

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Thank you.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: First Thursday.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: We

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: will do that. Question?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So visuals, for this kind of thing, diagrams of overlays. I just I can't envision this with this language. It's just it's in some way, you can't.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I think you've seen it. You just went through this process with your own regional commission. I know. There they were.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I know, but it was mainly the tiers that we went through. You know, we were looking at how these different categories fit into the tinder. Like there's more well, maybe not. Maybe I'm just kind of just not able to translate that into what we were working on. It just seems like there's maybe not. Maybe it's just creating these categories, and then the tiers will get developed. Yeah, so two different minis. One is the planning and one is Zac two fifty.

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: They're meshed, but they're different.

[Michael Hoyt (Member)]: In addition to that, we're going through today, there's all these programs, the Community Investment Program, the Tax Credit Program. These are the programs that have all these additional terms or areas. Yeah, and

[Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: we'll hear about that from others. That's what I referenced yesterday when I said a lot of part of where the Infant one eighty one came from was that we were using these tax designation programs for end use decisions, and it didn't make any sense. So we're still unpacking that. There's significant overlap, but they are different things. That's where we are. Okay. With that, we will adjourn for the afternoon.