Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Alright. Welcome back to the House Environment Committee. We are going to continue discussion of s three twenty five with two members of the Land Use Review Board.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having us.

[Alex Weinhagen]: Yes. So hi, everyone. My name is Alex Weinhagen, one of the five board members on the land use sorry. Land Use Review Board.

[Kirsten Sultan]: And my name is Kristen Sultan. I'm also one of the five members of the Land Use Review Board.

[Alex Weinhagen]: Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, we're here just to give you a little bit of table setting and overview about the ACT two fifty program, answer your questions about how things are going. We have a presentation to walk through, and Kirsten's going to start with that background.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Yeah, so I know that I think back in January this committee did already see an overview, but we thought we'd touch on some of the highlights again. I was asked to talk a little bit to the experience that I had had serving as a pretty long time district seven coordinator, which is the Northeast Kingdom region. So a year ago, a little over a year ago when the board was seated, I transitioned from the coordinator role to serving on the board. And before that, I had been in the district seven coordinator role for nineteen years. And I'll share also before that, I spent about seventeen or eighteen years in private practice in engineering consulting, working for a couple different firms, Vermont, one New Hampshire based, and I also had my own consulting business for three or four years. So I had been on the, you know, on the applicant side of the process, drawing up plans and filling out permit applications, including some act two fifty permit applications. So I brought that experience into the role of the coordinator. We can just touch on quickly. Today, we came prepared to talk about, you know, as Alex said, overview of Act two fifty, the criteria, the process, the structure, and also Alex is available to touch to go over where the board's work on act one eighty one implementation stands as of today. So this is our organizational chart. The program has nine different district commissions statewide. These are people who are appointed by the governor typically for a term of four years, but sometimes two. And we have program staff based in five regional offices, including an executive director who oversees those operations supported by the board and technical staff. We have a whole compliance and enforcement side to the organization as well. We have three attorneys. So what is act two fifty? So it is Sorry, I can't even see what we Thanks, Alex. So it's a permit process that is required for certain development activities in Vermont, and it I'll I'll explain how jurisdiction works. It's a little nuanced. For towns that have both zoning and subdivision bylaws, act two fifty basically has less jurisdiction. So act two fifty jurisdiction attaches to commercial projects on tracts of land that are 10 or more acres and to subdivision activity of 10 or more lots within a five year period of time. And that subdivision activity is measured both by town and on a district basis. If a town does not have zoning and subdivision bylaws, then act two fifty jurisdiction attaches to commercial projects on more than one acre of land, and that is not insignificant. Also, when towns don't have both zoning and subdivision bylaws, the threshold for subdivision jurisdiction is also lower. It's based on six or more lots in a five year period of time. So I'll mention in the Northeast Kingdom region, which is District 7, there are 50 towns, one city, and most of those municipalities do not have both zoning and subdivision bylaws. So it's predominance of mostly the so called one acre towns whereby act two fifty jurisdiction applies to commercial projects on more than one acre. And I think there are still currently less than 10 of the 51 municipalities that have 10 acre status. So it's it's a it's a significant majority in the Northeast Kingdom that that still have this one acre town status because they again, they don't have the zoning and subdivision bylaws that meet the standard.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: You I'm really interested in those communities, and I guess I'm curious. I'm not I'd just like to know more about them. And so is there after your nineteen years up there, can you share some observations about is there anything that unites them or what? Like, why? Fifty plus years later, why are they it feels like from here that they're kind of opting into being a one acre town. I guess I'm just wondering if you have thoughts on that.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Yeah. I mean, I've occasionally brought into conversations that communities are having supported by the regional planning commission, and so I have, you know, some understanding and awareness of what's what is happening within communities. But I really think that it's it's it's the it's the the citizens of those communities don't want to have all you know, that level of land local land use regulation. And I think that they are made aware that here's how it works, and there is this nexus to act two fifty jurisdiction. And, you know, I I I think that they they just don't want those that scope and robustness of sort of local bylaws. I I I I I I can't I I wouldn't say that there's any, like, thing that necessarily unites them. I mean, it is it is a predominantly rural area too. So, yeah, I I I think I I have heard it said I don't know how much this is necessarily the case, but I have heard it said that sometimes locals consultants have expressed to me that they feel that some local zoning boards like the support of act two fifty, like, as they're considering a development project. So maybe that is somehow factoring, but I don't might I I think it really just boils down to that they don't they just don't want those the whole set of bylaws. So, yeah, it's it's it reflects the the people and and the town.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Representative Austin.

[Representative Sarah "Sarita" Austin]: Sorry. Is there any cost to Vermonters outside those towns for that decision?

[Kirsten Sultan]: Say again? I'm not I

[Representative Sarah "Sarita" Austin]: didn't understand. Cost. Like, can they build in floodplains, their houses get destroyed, then we have to pay for it. We have to pay for the replacement. Just wondering for that decision not to have zoning. I I don't care if people don't want zoning. I just think it's unfair for for managers to have to pay for that, for some of the outcomes of that decision. I don't feel I can give you

[Kirsten Sultan]: a good answer to that question. I mean, I think that yeah. And, like, flood hazard bylaws are a whole subtopic. Mhmm. So most of the communities do have flood hazard bylaws, as I understand it that enables landowners to access flood insurance. That's, you know, a federal system that we all pay into. Right? And so it yeah. I I can't give you a good answer to that. I'm sorry. Thank you.

[Representative Ela Chapin]: Thanks. Just since I'm new to this, if a town does have local bylaws, then the act two fifty jurisdictions lessened

[Kirsten Sultan]: That's right. Okay. That's right.

[Representative Ela Chapin]: Is that the one in 10 acre distinction?

[Kirsten Sultan]: Correct.

[Representative Ela Chapin]: Okay. So if you choose not to have bylaws, you're likely to have more projects with

[Kirsten Sultan]: the Go through act two fifty. Act two fifty. That's right.

[Representative Ela Chapin]: Okay.

[Kirsten Sultan]: That's what I was trying to explain.

[Alex Weinhagen]: Yeah. Okay.

[Representative Ela Chapin]: Yep. Makes sense. Thank you.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Yeah. So there's a whole list of exemptions. So Act two fifty does not regulate agriculture, farming.

[Representative Sarah "Sarita" Austin]: Some there

[Kirsten Sultan]: are some provisions for accessory on farm businesses as well, and some housing projects are also exempt. It's it's there's some interim housing exemptions in effect you may have heard of. It's location based. And we're also, as Alex will touch on, standing up the whole new tier one process. Logging and forestry below 2,500 feet, also farming below 2,500 feet all are exempt. And there's a whole list of of exemptions. Including maple sugaring.

[Alex Weinhagen]: We're in that season. So it's important to note that maple sugaring is considered in that realm of farming and forestry and

[Representative Sarah "Sarita" Austin]: is exempt. Do you want to

[Kirsten Sultan]: go on to the next slide? It's a citizen based review. The people making the decisions about permit applications live and typically work in, you know, the region that they're assigned to. Like, the you know, if you wanna serve on district six commission, you live and live and perhaps, you know, work in district six. And so in district seven, I'll share that we've had a great, very dedicated, thoughtful commission from my perspective and a longtime regular commissioner. So the commissions are comprised of regular commissioners and also supported by alternates who step in when a regular commissioner is unavailable. So these pretty long standing regular commissioners in D 7 include, in the past, in my nineteen year tenure, a farmer from Danville who was then that position then was fulfilled by a woman from Hardwick who has a background in architecture and had also owned a retail business. Another very long standing commissioner is a civil engineer from Linden. Happens to match my own profile a little bit, but not me. And then last but not least, the the d seven chair is a building trades instructor who developed this very successful building trades program in Canaan at Canaan Memorial High School and recently retired from that work. So it so these are people from the region who review these permit allocations.

[Representative Ela Chapin]: Mhmm.

[Kirsten Sultan]: This is just a overview of the the location of the nine district commissions. The area in red is, as you know, the Northeast Kingdom region comprised of the three counties and the five offices. I'll and we have an office in Montpelier That's both our central office, but also where some of the district five regional staff are based. Essex, we have an office there. Saint Johnsbury, where I was based. Until recently, Rutland and Springfield. We have offices there where the public can go, meet with staff, access information, get assistance and support and guidance. And those those regional staff are supporting the work of these volunteer commissioners that are statewide, the regular and alternate members that I referred to. Frequently, people ask, you know, do I need a permit? And, again, staff are available to help sort out the once a project is sufficiently defined whether or not a permit is needed. And we typically would recommend that that be obtained in writing after been discussed and understood. And if people want a written request, they can do so, and then staff issue that in the form of what's called jurisdictional opinion, or sometimes you might hear people talk about a j o. So those are determinations that the coordinators issue that say, yes, you need a permit or no, you don't. Outline the facts and the basis of that determination, and they are subject to appeal. So, again, you know, there's a whole array of supports that are offered at the regional offices to anyone. The coordinator's role is to assist everyone. So typically, that starts with the applicant. We encourage that people contact the coordinator prior to submitting an application so that they can get be made aware of, you know, the process, the criteria. Are there any challenges that that are that can be identified as early as possible so that people are aware? And no one wants to get a surprise, you know, particularly after plans have already started to take shape. Staff will do a site visit. Staff will refer applicants to other state agency contacts for a pre application review that they can include with their submittal once once they're ready to submit an application. And there's also an online tool called the permit navigator that's available to generate a report of anticipated permit requirements if the user fills in the information about the location and the project, etcetera. It uses an algorithm, walks you through whole lots of detailed questions, and then it spits out this report. So that's also available, and and Act two fifty staff will refer people thinking about projects to that tool. So these are the 10 criteria. They it's it's and I and I guess I'll just jump to the next slide because people talk about the 10 criteria. When you factor in all of the sub criteria, there's really 32, and it's not insignificant. Right? It's this big, long list of things. And the way I've come to think about this is try to explain a little bit. It's it it sort of starts with, are there permits already in effect on the the piece of property that's under consideration for development activity? If you know, are there conditions or requirements or restrictions? So that's sort of one aspect of navigating Act two fifty. And then there's the piece of property in of itself. And what are the characteristics of the piece of property and the location? Are there streams or wetlands or shorelines, or is is it really steep and perhaps has an access challenge? So so the piece of property in of itself, the location, and then the project. What is it and where on the property is someone looking to develop? And you sort of if can think about sort of sandwiching those three things together and go into the application process and understand that if you're on one end of the spectrum where you have a simple straightforward project, there's not a lot of environmental resources on the property, it might be quite straightforward and there might not be a lot of these criteria implicated. But another end of the spectrum might be a situation where there's a lot of challenges on the property. Maybe there's some fire permit history. And if property features lots of these challenges, then that's where we see the process become more substantive, I guess, is how I would put it. So it's a spectrum. You have those ones that are more substantive, and then you have the simpler ones on the other end of the spectrum and you have everything in between. And so all of these criteria and sub criteria come into play, and they're considered depending on where you are in that spectrum. Some of them might be just to sort of check the box. Doesn't real it's not really germane, but other ones might be very relevant. Like, let's say you're project on a shoreline. Well, one of shoreline is going to be in play for that particular project, and the commission has to do the analysis based on the information it receives.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: So I think it's important if you don't mind going back to this slide because the sub criteria are really just details flushing out in many instances of the bigger bucket.

[Alex Weinhagen]: Sure.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: So I think that the strength of Act two fifty is that it's a holistic review, and it's, bringing lots of things together to look at a big picture perspective that is well represented by having a basic understanding of the 10 sort of first. And then the details do matter for sure. And I appreciate your explanation of how they're used, but I think just reviewing these are good.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Sure. So air and water pollution encompasses all of the surface and groundwater, you know, factors. It includes, you know, streams, wetlands, shorelines, air pollution. So air pollution can be things like noise, can also be, you know, pollutants in the air. So that that, you know, that falls under criterion one. Water supply evaluates the availability of water and also under criterion three impact on existing water supplies.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Those two seem to really overlap.

[Kirsten Sultan]: They do overlap.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Yep. At one point, we tried to parse them out better, that didn't gain traction, but they definitely seemed Yeah.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Forced soil erosion is just that. Will say, there's also, Act two fifty, some people would describe it as an umbrella permit and bringing together, and we'll get to a slide on the participants, it so state agencies can participate in F two fifty and do with some frequency. Probably the most frequent participant is the Agency of Natural Resources, but also Agency of Transportation, Vermont Division for Historic Preservation, Agency of Agriculture, Food and Markets. And so, as you probably also know, there are some other permits that overlap with some of the Act two fifty criteria. So soil erosion is one of those where the Agency of Natural Resources, if someone is doing a construction activity that physically disturbs an acre more of land, they typically would trigger a need for this other construction permit from the Agency of Natural Resources that can be provided to satisfy this particular soil erosion criteria. There are also wastewater permits, stormwater permits that can be used to demonstrate parts of criterion one as it pertains to waste disposal. So transportation is an another aspect of Act two fifty that. Covers things like traffic safety and congestion, pedestrian safety access conditions. So the commission would would be considering, for instance, is the project involved creating a new access onto a state or, like, local road? Has the, you know, the local highway foreman granted an access approval for that location? Or in the case of access from a state highway, do they have you know, what's their status with agency of transportation access requirements? So it's it's ensuring in part that people aren't putting in, for instance, driveways on, you know, a blind corner. So it it's looking at, you know, traffic safety. In the in the kingdom, you know, there's not that many locations where there's, you know, problems with traffic congestion. Right? It's not Burlington. We have seen a couple projects where I'll just mention, for instance, like, the I 91 off ramp level was lengthened when the Walmart supercenter went into Derby. People do sometimes find themselves undertaking, you know, traffic improvements to support development activity or contributing under the, you know, the fair share mechanism that's part of criterion five. If there's a a designated project and your traffic is generating trips that will impact that the capacity for the and use capacity for the identified project, then there's a mechanism where developers can pay in based on how much traffic they're generating that will use that intersection capacity. I'm not I'm not explaining that very well, but it's a it's a way of cost sharing and not putting all the burden on one developer to construct an improvement. Impact on schools and municipal services. I mean, impact on schools with declining enrollment has been in recent history has not been I have not seen that sort of used as much through the two fifty process at least in the kingdom. It can come into play with the need for capital investments, expansions. If there if there's a capacity issue, if there's, say, a big residential subdivision, one might have be one might be asked to help offset that through, you know, supporting a capital project at the school. Impact on municipal services. There's a couple different ways that applicants approach that. There standard application forms include a municipal impact form that the applicant can use and go to the municipality to a local official and ask them to fill it out, documenting if there's any issues with typically, like, police, fire, and rescue services. My experience that often sort of boils down to fire department. And often, they're they're the need to have that form filled out by the municipality can can sometimes be waived, some depending on the details of the project. Some applicants will elect to go to, say, the fire chief and ask them to provide a a project review letter. And this this has been used a fair bit to support local fire departments. Anecdotally, for instance, I can remember the, I think the landfill is under an obligation to provide some retardant product to the local fire department to help with those fire emergency events that could occur. I'm remembering the Burke Hotel, I think, was taller than the ladder truck capacity of the department, and there was some support made there. Typically for a bigger commercial building. Sorry if some of you know this, but the fire departments are often evaluating access. Access on several sides of the structure to be able to get in and combat a fire event. So this this is, you know, part of the program history. Okay. Criterion eight, wildlife habitat, historic sites, and aesthetics. There's sort of those three factors. Necessary wildlife habitat can be things like deer wintering areas, bear habitat. There's grassland birds have have also been addressed through this. There's there's different habitat that have been identified that are that have been recognized and protected through criterion eight. Historic sites covers historic buildings of the type that you might think of in historic sites, but it also covers archaeology. And we hear from the Vermont Division of Historic Preservation, depending on the condition of a building, sometimes they've been eligible for removal with archival photography. It it sort of runs the gamut. Sometimes there's an architectural review if there's an addition or modification to a building. And then aesthetics is looking at, you know, where where can you see the project from? Has the is the lighting down shielded? You know, what what's the building, you know, visibility and if if relevant, you know, is there a color scheme? Is is the signage in keeping with the the character of the area? That kind of thing. Impact of growth can be triggered for a bigger project. I guess I won't I won't get into that too much, but it's looking at the capacity of the area to accommodate growth that might occur if if there's a bit like, a bigger development project.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: What was the largest development project you were involved in?

[Kirsten Sultan]: Probably JPeak Resort, I guess, I would say. JPeak Resort went through a pretty major expansion. When I started with the program, I think the golf course was under construction. They built a lot of housing units, couple hotels, the water park. That was Burke also did some master plan development activity, but it hasn't been at the scope and scale in terms of what's been constructed. They also built a hotel. The Walmart supercenter was not insignificant in terms of scope for that for that location. Yeah. Actually, if you're interested, I actually was thinking through, you know, okay. It's sort of like this. I had understood the ask was to talk about, you know, how is act two fifty working in the Northeast Kingdom and and try to convey that sort of more narrative. And I I actually wrote out kind of a laundry list of of projects that I think might interest you to get a that that landscape of the universe of act two fifty projects. Like, what are we talking about? Would you like me to give that Sure. Okay. So we mentioned the two ski areas. Oh, not to forget. So the region has the state's only line landfill. Only land only active landfill, as I I I think. There might be another c and d one elsewhere. But in terms of, like, solid waste, I would say more sand and gravel pits than I can count. A lot of sand and gravel pits. Hand like, a number of stone quarries in my this is just in my sort of nineteen year tenure, maybe five or six earth resources project that were quarrying stone, you know, blasting. I mentioned Walmart, bunch of cell towers. So when I started with Act two fifty, it was in the era of, like, free Google Earth, and the program was still seeing a lot of applications for cell towers. So there were maybe five or six of those that I staffed for the commission. Some asphalt paving plants. This is in no particular order. This is my own kind of, like, many self storage unit business projects. Many. Bulk fuel storage facilities, several of those in the region. You know, think big above ground tanks. That's where, you know, the local fire department would, of course, be interested. Some salvage yards, like auto and metal scrap yards, waste transfer station. So there's a couple private high school campuses in the region, Linen Institute, Saint Jay Academy. They did some projects including dorm buildings and also recreational field lighting. Also, the NV Northern Vermont University, Linden State College campus is in Linden, and they also have done some projects in and recreational field lighting. There's a big cheese plant in the area that went through act two fifty. Really interesting. There's was a not too distant, pretty major expansion of of a manufacturing plant that manufactures and is an international electro electronic component parts manufacturer. That that is a big industry in the area. And then, you know, again, I just wanna emphasize this region, there's a lot of smaller like, small businesses, some of them, you know, not necessarily in someone's home, but perhaps on the same property that might have, you know, just a small number of employees, might only be, you know, sort of owner operated. There is a provision for home occupation exemption that can apply in some cases, but it's it's somewhat limited. And there are many small businesses in rural locations that have come through act two fifty, And I'll on some of them. I mean, so auto body shops, there's auto repair garages. So some of these are small and really can be very important to rural car maintenance and transportation alongside bigger auto dealerships. So staff to couple of those new and expanded auto dealerships as well. Campgrounds. So several and we're not talking, like, you know, someone's two sites in their backyard, like, bigger campgrounds with, say, 30 or 40 sites, several of those. Event venues, like wedding barns or other similar types of event spaces, several of those. There's a number of retreat centers in the region that went through, you know, construction and expansion projects, new in one case, like, a new location where they were constructing, you know, sort of a campus with gathering places and cabins and, you know, accommodation lodging. And this is, again, this is like a no order. So a storm window manufacturer, that was like a small home based home property based business, restaurants, farm equipment sales and service dealership. So a business that sells farm equipment that also encompasses property where prospective customers can use equipment they're they're thinking of purchasing. So it takes, like, space. A bike shop. There's a couple water bottling plants. Beer breweries, a number of beer breweries, and some of them, you know, ranging from small to bigger, more successful in the region. Also, there's some couple of distilleries in the area. A big performing arts center was constructed. Quite a few daycares. There's an abattoir, which is sort of a fancy name for a slaughterhouse, Stopped that, you know, had some special sort of waste considerations. A number of gas stations and mini marts. Dollar General store. A number of dog kennels, what I would call a dog breeding facility, sort of a larger scale dog breeder breeding operation. There were two of those in my tenure. There was an interesting property that had a pet cemetery that was making modifications, and they were, like, add adding some additional uses. Couple of veterinarian offices. I can't remember if both needed a permit, but one definitely came needed a permit based on the facts that added crematoriums to manage, you know, deceased pets. Utility lines is another category of types of permits. If if there's a certain length of utility line, that can come under act two fifty jurisdiction. There was an airport runway and taxiway big project at the Coventry Airport, and there are several airports in the region. There's one in Linden. There's one in Brighton that's a small, I think it's called the John H. Boylan Airport, and there's also the the Newport State Airport in Coventry. And there are private hangars at these locations. So people lease land from the you know, from through the agency of transportation typically, and then the those individuals are going through a permit process when they're putting up hangar buildings. A meat cutting shop. If I could Oh, sorry.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: That's fine. But this is because these are one acre towns that all

[Kirsten Sultan]: Not necessarily all of these, but meant like, many

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Small small businesses.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Yeah. Many of the small businesses, it's because they're on more than one acre. Yes. Now bear in mind, if property is already under act two fifty jurisdiction, then it doesn't matter what if this town is a one acre, 10 acre town. It's a different standard that governs whether or not the permit needs to be amended, and it's based on whether or not there's potential for impacts under the criteria. So that's a determination that the coordinator makes. So sometimes people are returning to act two fifty just by virtue of land is under act two fifty. I'm almost done with the list here. So a meat cutting shop, you know, people have game or meat that they need processed and cut. And there were a couple of those, and those were those were sort of on on home properties. A couple of sawmills. These are bigger, you know, commercials industrial sawmill operations. A couple businesses that were doing firewood processing and a couple of bark mulch facilities. One of them was new. One of them was an expansion. The one that was an expansion, they were also dyeing product. They offer different colors of bark mulch. A number of permits for logging above 2,500 feet. I don't think I ever saw a permit for farming above 2,500 feet, but quite a few for logging above 2,500 feet. And then last but not least, housing. So some subdivisions, there were some subdivision activity. There's a sizable residential subdivision in the Saint Johnsbury area that has not seen full build out, I think, because of market factors. But there's also, a number of small lot subdivisions and people doing multiunit housing projects. You know, Rural Edge has has done a number of big bigger projects of that type in the region. And then there's some mobile home parks that have gone through some redevelopment activity. One that comes to mind, they were elevating the units to get them out of the flood hazard elevation. So and I and I know I'm not thinking of all the other sort of types of home based businesses, but I just want to underscore that there. It's not insignificant and those applicants typically don't have, you know, at their disposal, a lot of consultants. They're coming in the door and they need a lot of assistance and support. I would try to provide that in my role as a coordinator to show people examples of how other applicants had met this criteria, for instance, and if if people want assistance. Some applicants just arrive at the door. Right? They just submit their application, and it's now and it's electronic now too. You just, you know, hit the send button, and and it's on file. So So these are the the people that can participate in the act two fifty process when it does apply. So, of course, the applicant, the landowner, if the if the applicant is not also the landowner, the municipality, and also so the municipality is a body through, say, its select board, but also the municipal planning commission. So those two bodies can participate in act two fifty, automatically have standing by statute. The regional planning commission as well, and then any state agency that's affected by the project. So those are the ones I mentioned. But, you know, could could could go beyond those ones. And then so the the review process is such that the the applications arrive at the district offices, and staff review them for completeness. And that's a combination of technicians looking for some specific things like, was the check signed correctly? Was the de reference provided? There's sort of some some straightforward items that the that the technicians review and verify, and then coordinators alongside that are doing a a more detailed review of how the application has been filled out. Like, you know, is there some threshold amount of information that's been provided that such that it's a complete application and is is ready for the district commission to then assume its role reviewing the the application. So that there's this sort of, like, starting gate, if you will, process. And sometimes applicants are notified, you know, you need to provide other information to comprise a complete application. And so sometimes there's supplemental filings that come in. Then when it's complete, it goes to the commission. And the commission determines how it's going to be processed. So there are three paths. There's administrative, minor, major, and the commission generally has the coordinator issue the administrative amendments, which are for simple changes, recordkeeping, lot line adjustments. Sometimes applicants want a new permit even though it's not even required. So, you know, once in a while, that happens for recordkeeping. They wanna, you know, update the name, this kind of thing. Most of the applications are processed as minor applications. There's no hearing. So what happens is the commission reviews the application, and they do this in a number of ways. The the commissions that have more volume, they're they're like, for instance, district four, as I understand it, they're rotating in all of the alternates, and they meet regularly, I think weekly, you know, every, you know, Thursday, 03:00. And and these commissioners, they put in a lot of time, all of them. It's not insignificant, and they're, from my perspective, to be commended for how how much of their of themselves that they're giving to the program. District seven would meet when there were things to meet about. Right? And this is just how how it worked in d seven. And we sort of migrated to comfort with doing some meetings remote, like, you know, as a result of the pandemic. And so they would indicate if they're if they themselves as a commission wanted a hearing to be convened based on the application as received. Or if they wanted it to be put out on notice, there's a standard twenty day comment period, a minimum of of seven days. But the standard is twenty days, and a standard notice goes out to all these you know, potentially interested parties. And then depending on what happens during that twenty day comment period, then prescribes kind of the conclusion of of that application review. So the commission, for instance, might be waiting for a wastewater permit, and they make that known right up front that they won't be issuing a permit until the wastewater permit is issued. So the other state permits are often happening in parallel to the Act two fifty permit. Sometimes they're more front loaded. Applicants are choosing to get all those Is dotted and Ts crossed in advance before they even file with Act two fifty. The completeness standard is that if you're relying on that other state permit that you need, you have to at least be on file with that other state agency. You don't have to have the permit in hand, but you have to be on file. So it's somewhat common to have them happen sort of in parallel. Then when you get to the close of that twenty day comment period, maybe you're waiting for something from the applicant, like one of these other ancillary state permits. If the commission receives a request for a hearing, the program has a form that's available. So people who are notified of the project and have a concern and they that's relevant well, has in order for the commission to convene a hearing, it has to be relevant to the criteria, and they have to demonstrate that there's some an interest that might be impacted under the criteria. And then the commission further considers if they have, you know, a sufficiently particularized interest such that they would have standing as what act two fifty calls, you know, a party. There's another status called friends of the commission that is sometimes used to allow people to participate. If one achieves party status, you can appeal the the the decision. If you if you have friend of the commission status, you you don't have those appeal rights. And, also, importantly, a decision on a minor permit process is not subject to appeal. So it's the it's the permit applications that go to a hearing that are that are subject to appeal, and also the jurisdictional determinations.

[Alex Weinhagen]: You're about out of time.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Oh, I'm out of time. Okay. About. Okay. Sorry. Wow. I've been talking a lot.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Representative Austin.

[Representative Sarah "Sarita" Austin]: Is there I'm thinking there's a looking at the appeal process because it can be so expensive. Is there any changes in the number of people who can appeal a project currently, or is that being proposed?

[Kirsten Sultan]: Changes in the number of of appeals?

[Representative Sarah "Sarita" Austin]: So you can get, like, six people who may not be impact, but in a neighborhood or

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: But so Those are municipal permits.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Yeah. And not not in act two fifty. The board did issue a study and, like, a report as a component of its act one eighty one obligations on concerning appeals. And I think

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Which we have heard at the beginning of

[Kirsten Sultan]: the I feel terrible. I didn't like, I'm just walking away. Okay. This is Do you wanna so we the program does about 400 permits. I'm sorry. Did I

[Representative Sarah "Sarita" Austin]: Yeah. No. I just I just had There was a flag for me just in terms of how expensive appeals are and who can appeal and the numbers. I see that early.

[Alex Weinhagen]: Yeah, from the Act two fifty process, it's a matter of the district commission deciding who is an interested party based on their demonstration that there's going to be some adverse impact under their criteria. And it's only those people that the district commission sort of anoints as interested parties that have the ability to appeal. It is different from the municipal one where you can have, you know, six people that are sort of petitioning together.

[Representative Sarah "Sarita" Austin]: Mhmm.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: So just to clarify, this slide that's up is one year, this past year?

[Kirsten Sultan]: Correct. Well, the $3.50 to 400 is, I think, the last five years. It's in that range. And this is statewide. It's a small percentage of permits that are denied. I think that partly that goes to people making efforts to align their project with the requirements of the Act two fifty criteria and the commissions you know, helping parties resolve issues and finding solutions as part of that, bringing people together under the two fifty process. That's just my it's it's a pretty small rate of denials. I I in d seven, I there were a few denials.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Representative Chapin, do you have a question?

[Representative Ela Chapin]: I just wanted to clarify. Didn't you just said that all decisions on minor applications cannot be appealed?

[Kirsten Sultan]: Yes.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And yet you also do set standing for interested parties on minor

[Kirsten Sultan]: No. Not on minors. No. Think all Right. If someone any applicable to nature. Okay. Right. So if if someone wants to if someone is not one of those parties by right under the statute, then in order for the commission to hear from that interested party, they would convene a hearing or a pre hearing. Sometimes it would start with a pre hearing.

[Alex Weinhagen]: Yeah. The minor process was an education for me as someone much newer to the program than Kirsten, and the understanding that minors simply get a draft approval that circulated to abutters and other potential interested parties with the proviso, We're going to approve this unless you tell us that we should hold a hearing. And it's only if that request is made that a hearing is then held and then people can make their case about whether they should be interested party and be able to comment on it. But fully, three eighty four decisions were issued last calendar year, and of those three eighty four decisions, only 16 went to a hearing. So the vast majority of ACTU-fifty applications are either handled administratively or through this minor approval process that does not involve a hearing. No neighbors are upset. It's just you go through the process, you get an approval.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: I know. Yeah, the notifications would be really good if they were turned off.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Annually, in 2025, there were two thirty eight jurisdictional opinions issued.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Alex, can you say one more time? I'm sorry, was distracted. There's 300 in the past calendar year. How many went to majors?

[Alex Weinhagen]: Three eighty four permits were issued in the last calendar year. Only 16 had a hearing. The rest were dealt with administratively or as a minor approval. There were no permits denied last year.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: There's a question or two remaining. We're running up against the clock. Sorry that we got a little bit Yes, sorry. No, I think it was great. It's actually what I wanted, and then I ended up maybe miscommunicating a little bit with you all. I'm hoping we could have Ally

[Alex Weinhagen]: come back from the act one eighty one side of it.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Yes. I was so even as soon as maybe tomorrow if you're available, but we'll have Kat reach out and work with you on scheduling that. And then did you have a question?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. On both the minors and the majors, the length of time of the process from first filing of permit till the actual approval process, both in the minor and the majors. What kind of average times are we talking about?

[Alex Weinhagen]: Yeah, our annual report that we submit to you every year has those stats in it, and for last year, if I'm remembering right, administrative amendments are a matter of days on average. Minors have an average of one hundred and twenty nine days, but that's skewed by some that get caught up in some real delay. The median, if you're familiar with the difference between averages and median, was forty two days for minors. So what I like to tell people is most projects are dealt with as an administrative amendment or a minor, and for those that are minors, you're looking at a few months to get through the process, potentially faster, but generally a few months. Majors are a different story. They are longer. I think the average is three hundred days, but I don't know the exact number. But it is in our annual report. Happy to provide that to you.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: I'm sure have it under reports on our webpage. With that, I think we need to wrap up this part of our sorry. Thank you so much. That's very helpful. And, and, Alex, when you come back, I think, the the the five board members have such great diverse experience. It would be interesting to hear a little bit from I know you were a town planner for a long time. Your perspective on that interface with Act two fifty and the Pinesburg development review process just doesn't have to be a lot, but I think would be interesting to hear that a little bit. A little on that, and then we'll get into 01/1981. Thank you both so much.

[Kirsten Sultan]: Welcome. Thanks a lot, Ela. Thank you.

[Chair Amy Sheldon]: Members are gonna take a five minute break, and then