Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Alright. Good morning, and welcome to the House Environment Committee. This morning, we are going to be taking up s two eighteen, an act relating to reducing chloride contamination state waters with Jared Carpenter. Welcome back.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Morning. Thank you, madam chair. Good morning, committee. For the record, Jared Carpenter, Lake Champlain committee. Thank you for asking me to come in and talk about s two eighteen, k a the salt bill or the third iteration of the salt bill, I do believe. Madam chair, how much do you want me to mostly focus on the bill? I've got a few slides, obviously, on the impacts of SALT, which you've heard a lot of that. You had Bethany's testimony yesterday, day before.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: A lot of tests in

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: that way. We refresh you.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: We all have lived experience.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: I know if she's here.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I can refresh you all on the the bill itself. Yep. And I see you have legislative council coming in later as well. So basically, you had you all had last session, you had h 86 in committee and voted it out of committee. The only the only change from the bill that you passed out of committee is the liability provision. Senate judiciary

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: Yeah.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Heard from a few folks down there, has made some changes. I'll talk about the affirmative defense. Which that's a great we're

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: gonna do kind of a deep dive with him on it, but we're happy to hear your perspective.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: That's perfect person to to deep dive in on it, but I'll I'll talk about that as well. But it still has, you know, the language that you put in the the the specific language that it's a voluntary program, the requirement for rule making for the best management practices to offer for transparency and public participation in the process, and then the changes that you made to the study, including the salt provisions and things like that in terms of, you know, obviously, it's not a mandate to cover anymore. It's a study on the number of salt sheds, the proximity to to waterways, and the cost of what it would what it would take to cover them. So

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: alright. Aren't you advancing? Take a second. Might be that. Might be something else.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Yeah. There it goes. I don't know. It was a hiccup for a minute. So you've seen these charts before. I've showed them to you that the salt use has increased, increased nationwide. This is actually from, Matt Vaughn's, testimony before this committee. You know, we've talked about the excessive use of road salt. I mean, folks do talk about the increased salinity of rivers and lakes as, and harming aquatic biota as Bethany did the other day. But, really, you need to, the focus is should also be on the increasing costs not only to individuals, but municipalities in terms of impacts on drinking water supplies, corroding pipes, increases of lead in in drinking water supplies, and then the acceleration of corroding corrosion of bridges, roads, and vehicles. So it is much more than just salinity and water. It is also increasing costs on people in their cars, on replacing bridges more quickly, and on drinking water systems, including private wells. And this is the the, of course, the squiggle lines, that you've all seen about, you know, increasing salinity levels in in rivers. Now the bill is now an act relating to reducing chloride contamination of state waters. It is s two eighteen. It is still in the as introduced version. I believe it was in senate finance. The chair said, what do you mean it's as introduced? I don't think I've ever seen this before. There have been no changes since the bill since it was introduced and since it was made. So senate natural finance and appropriations passed it out in its form as they as it was received. You've seen this. The bill still has four main components. It establishes the best management practices for stall dock salt application, sets, certification programs for commercial and municipal applicators, the study that I mentioned on sand and salt storage facilities and proximity to waters, and then, of course, the liability protection as the, as the carrot, so to speak, for the program. We've talked about this, and I've talked about this. It is a voluntary program. It is written into statute by this committee. The only way it becomes mandatory is if it comes back to the legislative body, and that word is removed. So it has been successful in New Hampshire as a voluntary program. I can talk I'll talk about their numbers. You know, actually, I can talk about them right now. When Green Snow Pro started in New Hampshire in 2013, there are 35 applicators from 22 companies that received Green Snow Pro certification. And in 2025, Omni certified over 700 applicators from 175 companies. So the benefits have been seen by the folks in New Hampshire of why they should enter this program voluntarily, get the education, reduce the cost in spreading salt, get the liability protection. Again, best management practices, this committee put in language that shall adopt by rule. So even though we're anticipating that this is me modeled off of green snow pro in New Hampshire, there was even conversation about making it pretty much the same program. So somebody who is an applicator on each side of the Connecticut River can enter into the program potentially once and have reciprocal, you know, and plowing both in say Norwich as well as in Hanover or what have you, which seems to make logical sense. They have a successful program, not a lot of reason to reinvent the wheel, and their program is also based on aspects of Minnesota and Wisconsin and other programs that have been successful.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Sorry. So that's something that is in can just happen, or do we need to change something to enable that to happen?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I think that's something that can just happen during rulemaking. If if it's the same provisions, the two agencies can just agree, New Hampshire's and DEC, that it's a reciprocal program. You know, it's techniques to increase the efficiency of application, standards for insults, salt alternate alternatives are used, calibration of your equipment, and then the administrative requirements as the record keeping. Again, so this is Green Snow Pro. This is their voluntary program that has been quite successful that we would sort of build off of it over ten oh, you know, they've been doing it for ten years. The two differences in the programs is they start off started with commercial and added municipal midway through, and we're proposing to do both at the same time. And this is what these two programs would look like. DEC would set up the commercial certification program. They would first by start setting up the BMPs, and then any I think it's year two into year three, they would set up the commercial certification program over at DEC or through a third party, basically a subcontract team. While the municipal certification would be handled by V Trans, they have the current local Vermont local roads curriculum, that they run voluntary program for municipalities for their road crews to come in and take education classes on various subjects. This will just become another chapter. They could come in and get certification on SALT application. Two year certification, there will a fee be established. That is part of, as Bethany mentioned, something that will happen over the summer into the fall. They'll look into the different costs and a potential fee, for commercial applicators. It was initially just commercial applicators. Senate finance added an aspect to look into whether there should be a municipal fee as well. Their argument being that if towns think, you know, could see the benefits of saving a lot of money, maybe they'd be spending willing to spend a little bit of money to help prop up the program. The certification costs in the New Hampshire as of last year, there's an individual cert certification is $150. There's a master certification in which you can train others that's, say, say the supervisor on a at a company comes in and he goes back he she goes back and trains. There are a few employees. That's $250, and municipal certification for the whole town is $450. So it doesn't matter how many folks in New Hampshire that, you know, you have three applicators, do you have 10? It's just a a one flat fee. My understanding, however, even though the program has been very successful, it doesn't completely pay for itself yet. So that is obviously something that's gonna have to be taken into consideration when the report comes back to this body about, you know, where's that sweet spot of how much is the fee so you can pay for the program, but you don't deter people from from taking the program. So it's a there's gonna have to be a consideration there.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Is there information on, well, a, what that delta is for New Hampshire?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I'm not sure, but I can find out.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Great. And then, any information on how much money towns have saved?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: That's another New Hampshire question. I think it's a lot of anecdotal evidence. I can see if they have an example or two that Town X enrolled and said they cut their salt costs by a third or something along those lines. And these

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: two programs are happening together so that these 700 enrollees in 2025 would be from both?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: My understanding. Yep.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Tagliavia.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: With respect to the amount of savings, is there any report also with respect to safety issues that have come up. Number of maybe increased safety issues. Hopefully not, but that would be a good number to know as well.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: In terms of whether or not there was seesaw blip in the number of accidents or something like that? Correct. See, I mean,

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: salt savings is one, but do we We understood.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: A sweet spot of like, much are you using where, to the best management practices that you're still keeping people safe, but you're not over applying? I mean, right now, I think like if you're, if you're in Montpelier, the philosophy is if a little is good, then a lot has to be really, really good because they just lay it down thick in this town on the sidewalks and everything. So I can look into that, but it might be hard to quantify. I mean, I'll reach out to New Hampshire when you know, this morning and see if they have something like that, but it might be hard to quantify that this blip is because of using less salt versus but I'll try.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: One more, if I could. How are we going to know that this program is a success? Are we going to look at to say, yes, this is successful?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I think, as Bethany was saying yesterday, it's hard to quantify the salinity levels in the surface waters because there's a lot of just in any given year, use different different amounts of salt. I think you hadn't come in yet, but I where did I put this? So in the last ten years in New Hampshire's program in 2013, there were 35 applicators from 22 companies that got certified. And in 2025, there were 700 applicators from 175 companies that got certified. So they they're seeing a reason to pay the fees, whether it's the savings, whether it's the you know, they're seeing a reason to go in and and and and use the program. And I think for a lot of them, it's probably saving money on salt. I'll try to find numbers, but anecdotally, one would think if you're finding that sweet spot and you're not spreading it the way they're doing it here in Montpelier, salt's expensive. And, you know, and there was some discussion over on this over on the senate side of they took up the bill maybe a week after that. Remember the big storm that came in, and there was there was there were stories about whether or not folks could or could not find salt. I don't think necessarily here, but it's only like Pennsylvania.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: There were some towns.

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: There were some here.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Couldn't find salt. So you figure you'd put people in to a program that'll use less, still keep people safe. I mean, it's worth it.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: Well, it's lower. Keeps it safe.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Yes, sir. Representative Satcowitz and then Austin.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Following up on those questions, do we know and I I don't recall us hearing this in the past, so apologies if we've covered this before. But do we know how the best practices that, like, New Hampshire has come up with? Like, what's how they came up with with those guidelines? My understanding is they and I

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: can't go that far back, but my understanding is that the the longest running programs are like Minnesota and Wisconsin, and they've been sort of taking the best practices that others have developed over time and, like, when to use brine and how to make it and, you know, having programs where different towns can share brine making machinery, you know, equipment so they don't have to make it all themselves. I think it's a little bit of of of of, of, you know, poaching from other from other people's from other people's programs and not creating it whole cloth. And I think that's what DEC really likes about it is they don't have to go out and create this, you know, create this just, you know, out of out of out of the air. They can take from New Hampshire and Maine and Minnesota and and others.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. So then it's a step at a couple of layers back then, where do these best practices come from originally? Do we have like, are they grounded in some sort of experimental science where people have tried different applications and seen how they work, one works better than the other? Just, does seem like if we're going to be but getting back to we want to know that it's rooted in In the science. Or at least some literature, some set of experiences which are valuable enough to make us think, yes, we're really pretty sure that these help in the ways that we think they do. I think so. Let's see how it would be difficult to construct, you know, a scientific apparatus that would get us to all the different aspects.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I I think the rulemaking will be very helpful in that because it'll make the agencies show their work, so to speak, and and where they're where they're coming from and where they're getting these. And it's now getting back to the further point, I'd hate to think that thirty years ago, they started by saying, you know, I'll only use this much, and then if public safety went down, they said, oh, we better bump it up a little bit. And it was a trial and error thing. I'd like to think it was the science. I mean, there is through the state program. They do know, and their machinery is calibrated for, you know, in certain temperatures ranges, you're supposed to use brine and during your pretreatment, in certain temperatures, you're supposed to use rock salt, in certain temperatures, you're supposed to use salt mixed with sand. So that can't be arbitrary. That has to be something that's been based on science and and tried and true saying it's Kate, it's 31 degrees, and we're pretreating, and it's supposed to be freezing rain, and you use brine because it puts down a it puts down a layer rather than the road salt bouncing around. So it's pretty well calibrated. South Burlington, I think you had testimony from from them last year as well, about their program, and they have, you know, well calibrated machinery that's that's based on what degrees it is and how far you are up off the road and things of that nature. And when you use brine, when you use salt salt mixed with sand. Some areas and I haven't heard too much about this, but they really get into the alternatives. I think, you know, we've heard about beet juice and things like that at certain at certain temperatures. That takes a lot of beets.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: But It also has its limitations from what I'm told.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Yeah. I would I would think so. I mean, there's a reason salt is chemically used against ice, but it only is you know, when you're putting it down on really cold in really cold weather on a really cold sidewalk, you might as well be putting down sand because the salt's not doing any good. It doesn't melt anything when it gets, I think, below 18 degrees. Does that sound about right?

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: That's why the calcium chloride and the magnesium chloride went into use because they will melt it to a lower temperature.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Correct. And I think that would all come out in the best management practices of when to use magnesium, when to use, you know, calcium,

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: when to

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: use brine. I don't think we'll get into the beet juice, but, you know, other methods like that. And how much can you use minimally to keep everybody safe, but save you money, save your your infrastructure, and not have a

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: lot of runoff into the

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: into the Winooski well, into any any water body.

[Rep. Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Yeah. You you said that, it's now being found in groundwater and private drinking wells. Do we know, how that impacts chloride if we're drinking it in our water for children or babies when people are making formula?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: It's not I mean, I don't I haven't read anything that says, you know, it's more of like a blood pressure issue or anything like that. It's the lead.

[Rep. Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: The lead? Yes. There's lead in it?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: So this is what yeah. Well, there's, there's, there's not lead in the salt. There's lead in, for example, that's what happened in Flint, Michigan. They had too much salt in the water and it starts leaching the lead in the heavy metals in the drinking water infrastructure, and that gets into it. And I've you know, there's been studies in Northern New York that have said same thing. It the salt gets on the ground, leaches into the groundwater, gets into the aquifer, and starts getting into people's private wells, and the same thing happens as you start leaching the heavy metals. So, you know, we can talk about, you know, the salinity levels and chronic and and and acute levels for the impacts on fish and everything like that, but it's really as much as anything else, it's a public health issue of of and it's gonna take a little while. I mean, it's one of those things where it's not gonna happen overnight. You're gonna have to stop using less salt. It's gonna have to leach itself out of the system and, you know, and work itself through in that nature. So the the sooner you start, the sooner you see those types of results.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Pritchard.

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: Thank you. Is is is this the newest information you have, though? I mean, it looks like it's six to ten years old. There's nothing Which frame? Well, my favorite one, the gift that keeps giving to me is the chart on Metaweek.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I thought about taking it out. But I really, you know, I had to keep it in.

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: Well, and the reason I ask is because 2020, I mean, you that's six years ago. It is. And the other and the other charts, ten years. Ten years.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I can reach out to I can reach out to Matt Vaughn at Lake Champlain Basin program. He's he's the guy who's been doing all the all of these spaghetti squiggle studies. Yeah. And see if he's done anything in the last two or three years. I'm pretty sure he has. Last time I talked to him, he was still crunching data.

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: Yeah. And I I guess I would be interested to that because But I can submit it. Because the the the original chart you showed, I can't remember what the date was on it, but I I I seem to think that it was newer. And I'm not sure that the the program was in place in 2020. So you wouldn't see any if it wasn't, then you wouldn't see any

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: These are all Vermont waters, so I don't I

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: would think everything would still be going up because there there haven't been any efforts made to produce salt in Vermont. Well, the while there isn't on the Meadoway. There hasn't been for six or seven well, these best management practices are being practiced by the state. Right. Solely maintained by the state. And I'm just trying to think how many years that I think it's been six or seven. But so if if the chart only goes to 2020, then you're really not seeing, you know, has has this best management practices done anything?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I can ask Matt and then Chris over at the

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: I mean, that's a pretty straight

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: That's at Seagrant about the Medoway. Yeah.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So I guess, representative Pritchard, do you

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: say it's solely managed I don't understand. It's this one.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: You're saying there's no town roads in the Meadoway Watershed?

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: That's correct. Route 30. Along the It goes all the way from Dorset. Along the main stem. To Granville. Yeah. To Granville, New

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: York. Oh, that's for

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: But the tributaries are all in town.

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: It's all in but still all state maintained road. I mean, if you wanna make if you wanna say that there I mean, there are roads, but I mean, two, three miles away from the Meadoway. How how how great are we gonna expand this?

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Yeah. I don't know. I'll ask if there's been studies specifically done and how extensive they are. It's just a little early.

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: It the whole Meadoway from Dorset to Grandville, New York is state highway. Okay. All the way. It's maintained by the state. So if this has been in effect, I think for six or seven years, chart doesn't reflect that. So what I'd be interested in is in 2025, has this gone down? Let's do that. The first thing that you showed early on on the 13% matter we, I thought was a 2024 slide, but so that's what Oh, in my past presentations. Yes. Okay. So that's that's really what I I would be interested Alright. In in seeing.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: I will see I will ask around and see what I

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: can do. Okay. Thanks.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: No. Not a problem.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: That's accurate. Yeah. I it makes me wonder if if if that particular stretch of of stream if it's possible that the program was successful and and actually is reflected in that graph, it's just that the graph is actually less steep than it would have been otherwise And

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Oh, but just yeah. Is it instead of going like this, would it

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: have gone like that? I mean, when we we just don't know. Yeah. Yeah. That's We don't,

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: but 13% is 13%.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: A valid point a valid point is is not

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: You know, it's it is a single data point, and I personally would be a little hesitant to make any kind of broad conclusions from a single stretch of of river. I think it's I'll dig in. Important to have, you know, broad data if we

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: wanna conclusions.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Let's see. So Houston certification program, success relies on carrots, including the liability protection from the affirmative defense, savings through purchase of less salt and for municipalities, potential compliance with water quality standards that could mean less cleanup costs, in the future of specific waters. Bethany talked about the now nine TMDLs that they're working on up in Chittenden County. This does require a study. This is these are the changes that you all made in committee last year. No longer mandatory coverage. Instead, you know, inventory of the number of state municipal storage facilities, the number that are currently covered or that are not covered with a 100 yards of a drinking water source, and then estimates of total costs to cover or to move facilities. DEC will look into this over the summer and into the fall. Report is due back 01/15/2027. Now legislative council, Mike, can probably do a better job of explaining affirmative defense than than I can.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: And we actually have a whole session scheduled with him to do that.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Okay. And so I can keep the committee on time.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: There's more to cover. There, but if

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Well, this is the affirmative defense. It's very specifically narrowly drawn, caused solely by ice or snow, and, only when the failure delay is the result of the applicator's adherence to the BMPs. So, essentially, it's a burden shift where somebody can still be sued, but they have a defense saying if I have the records that shows I've been following best management practices, that basically is their shield. And I'll let Mike go into it more than that. These are the key elements. Injury, but solely caused by snow and ice, not caused by gross negligence or reckless disregard. You didn't check your brakes. The brakes went out. You crashed into somebody. That's her thing. Applicator completed the certification program, and they kept records, of application consistent with the BMPs. This is something that the New Hampshire folks said would come up occasionally as, well, I've been following the BMPs. Well, what are your records that you've been following the BMPs? Well, I haven't kept any. So you have to be able to keep your records for three years and go in and prove that you were following best management practices.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: Does New Hampshire have any kind of actual records of what kind of compliance they've gotten? Like with what you said, applicators said they were practicing the BMTs, but then checks.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: No. My understanding is they haven't tried to, like, track lawsuits, so to speak, in terms of whether or not there has been one there has been a case, and Mike can talk about this as well. There's somebody who was sued, they were following the BMPs, you know, through discovery and learning of the evidence evidence that was it was found. It was, you know, not necessarily a slip and fall from the snow and ice. It was something else. But I don't think New Hampshire has really kept specific records in terms of how many times the affirmative defense was think it's just everything sort of lumped into lumped into court cases that are hard to sort of keep track of.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: One question. No. I'm talking more specifically about just periodic checks of periodic people that recertify Periodic record checks of are you keeping recertification, not that I love the idea of regulation, but to be able to show, okay. This is last two years. I need my certification, and I can show you records from what I've done.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: No. It is on my understanding is that it is on the applicator to keep their records to understand that it's two years that they need to get recertified again. There have been cases, my understanding is of somebody does the program, but then they lapse on their certification and forget to do it. Some people are in and out of the program because they're applying one year, but the next year they're not. And then they're back into it again. So they're not necessarily and it's on, you know, it's specifically on the the applicator to keep their to keep their records for the municipality. It'll be on the municipality to keep the records for their employees. So that would be something. But for the average commercial applicator, they'd have to keep their own records. No one's gonna sort of look over their shoulder. There was a discussion of that would be quite a bit of staff time for someone to say, yeah. Send me your records every year so I can look at them. No. That's it's on them.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: Okay. Just just out of curiosity.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: No. Understood. And thank you again for the opportunity to come and talk about this bill.

[Rep. Christopher "Chris" Pritchard (Member)]: Thanks for Thanks, Jen.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Testimony and work on this.

[Jared Carpenter (Lake Champlain Committee)]: Absolutely.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: We're waiting waiting for senator Baumgartner.