Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Hi. Sorry. Good afternoon. Welcome to the House Environment Committee. This afternoon, we are looking at committee bill that is technical corrections to fish and wildlife statutes brought to us by the department with our legislative council. Welcome, Bradley.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you. And Bradley Sherman, office of legislative council. Today, I'm doing a walk through of draft request 26 Dash zero seven eight three draft 1.1. It's a technical technical corrections bill submitted by the Department of Fish and Wildlife. Still concerns still concerns, penalties for hunting violations. Still also make some slight changes to the validity, how long vodka licenses are valid for, and discusses fee authority for the Department of Fish and Wildlife. Some background. This statute is written in an odd way, but it has been that way at least back into the sixties. And, basically, this statute is 10 VSA forty five zero two is organized to submit to discuss penalties, 10 violations or 20 violations for various hunting violations that are outlined in statute or an appendix to the title 10. And and so actually, I'm thinking this instance, it might actually be good for me to share my screen because I might show the committee I I will show the committee where some of these live and how to how how an individual might might actually see them when they are looking through. I won't share my screen right away. I'll do it when we get to that point.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Okay, sounds good.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So, to get us started, I'll go through the various changes and try and describe what those changes are. The committee should know that a 10 violation the accumulation of points means a suspension of your license. 10 to 14 points is a one year suspension, 15 to 19 points is a two year suspension, and 20 plus points is a three year suspension, two year license.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Why how could a range be? I don't understand the range. If it gets a ten year license is suspended.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For a year. For one year. Yes. Yes. And so any one of these 10 violations could wind up with a any one of these 10 violations could wind up with a one year suspension, and a 20 violation could wind up with a three year suspension. So the violations are serious. They have serious consequences. Fine. And so we're on page two, line 13, a 10 assessment shall be assessed for. And so each of these sections refers to a different section in title 10. So when you see section twenty four zero four, that's title 10 VSA section twenty four zero four. And so that's how you would find the text of that statute. And then so the use of machine guns and auto loading rifles. So this has been changed to remove gun and gun suppressors. It is no longer unlawful to have a gun suppressor, and so that statute has changed. And so this corresponding correction also changes that, because the suppressor prohibition is no longer in statute. Line 15, forty seven zero five, shooting for motor vehicles or in aircraft, excluding forty seven zero five a. So this is worth pulling up. So I am gonna share my screen. And

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: so this statute here

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: forty seven zero five. Thought that had going up. Apologies. Okay. So this section in the bill that we're going through is a line 15 of the bill that we're going through, makes a 10 violation for shooting for motor vehicles excluding 4705 a. And so any violations of b onward in this statute could be a 10 violation of your license. So 4705A is excluded as a 10 violation. It is later on in this bill as a 20 violation, and so that is the act of shooting from a motor vehicle, or any, motor propelled vehicle, except under subsection e of this section, which relates to people with, paraplegia or other serious disabilities. That would be a 20 violation. Violations of the rest of the statute are a 10 violation. And so that could include a person shall not carry or possess while in a vehicle propelled by motor power within the right of way of a public highway, any of the following, and it lists different types of weapons and instrumentalities for hunting that could be a violation of this statute. And so I I say that this penalty section is is written in a curious way because it does require referring back to the statute to kind of identify and specify exactly what is penalized at what certain point value. So I'm gonna unshare my screen because we won't be looking at this unless there are questions about this specific.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yes. Representative Hoyt?

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Yeah. I just asked if we could see what subsection Subsection This is you can shoot from a vehicle under this particular sub. Yes. Don't apply to a licensed hunter with paraplegia or who is certified by a physician excuse me, physician to be unable to pursue game because of a permanent or severe physical disability and so forth. Okay. Thanks. And so that's what that relates to.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: And

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: think that might just stay up because I don't know how to unshare. And okay. So we'll go back to the bill. We're on line 18. Age spread. Age two, line 18. And so these are trapping violations. We are, this bill is appendix 44 is another curious part. We're not curious but it's another part of the Vermont Statutes Online. So, just show the committee how to to look at that. So we're on Vermont Statutes Online, and we are pulling up the section of titles, and we click appendix. Right? And then you click game, and it will take you to all the references in this statute. And because the statute here, when we're talking about licenses and violations, does get into the minutiae of these various appendices that Department of Fish and Wildlife repairs. So we're looking at appendix 44 for bearing species, and I won't go through the appendix for each of these because that would unless the committee would like me to, I'm just showing as a matter of example of how you would investigate this, how the public would investigate this if if they were looking to see, okay, what is and is not subject to a penalty.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Can I ask so you said the fish and wildlife promulgates the appendices by rule, by what where do they come from?

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I I believe it is by rule making, but they can yes. Yes. It is by rule making. And and so we scroll down. We're looking at 4.18. And so we're scrolling down and you can see I I I think it is meaningful to show the committee how this works, right? And.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: That's very.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: How how you've obtained this information. And so we're looking at 4.18 B, and so a 10 violation would be a person who takes bobcats, otter, fisher during these seasons. Shall notify authorized department staff within forty eight hours of the close of the season. Pelt shall be presented to authorized department staff for tagging. Such tags shall remain affixed to the pelts until tanned. Carcasses shall be surrendered to authorized department staff at the time of tagging. So if it's the season for taking these animals or for the relative seasons for taking these animals, these are the things hunters have to do once they take these animals and have their pelts. And if they don't do these things, they should get a 10 violation. And then for e is another PELT a similar PELT statute with different timing. PELTs being presented to the department staff for tagging. Tags remain fixed until tan and carcasses shall be surrendered. And so these are how the public interact with these statutes to identify what is and is not subject to certain penalties and how the public would determine if the department did provide a penalty, how the public would determine, okay, what is the law? Did I actually violate that law? Let me take a look. Okay. So we can go back to the statute or the the draft here. So let's go to the next change. This is page three, appendix 37. We're on line two. And so these are these are changes to the deer management rule and relating to the taking of the antlerless deer at sections 4.1, taking of deers with a muzzleloader in section 7.5. Do

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: you want me to pull those

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: up?

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's perfectly fine.

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: Thank you. Yeah.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: And

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: so we're at an antlerless deer permit. And, you know, you could take one antlerless deer during the regular season, and so forth. And we're down to 7.5. No taking of deer by means of a muzzleloader. No person taking a deer by means of a muzzleloader may possess archery equipment while crossbow hunting. So a lot of these regulations, you know, prohibit the kinds of, I'm calling them weapons, that might be the incorrect term, but means for taking animals, firearms, or other kinds of items. So you might be restricted from carrying different types of devices in that way. And if there's a better word than weapons, I'm happy to to change my language there.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Satcowitz.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Yes. I just wanna make sure I understand in these appendices now that the changes that we're talking about are going from 20 violations to 10 violations. So for example, the one that you're on, no person taking deer by means of a muzzleloader, etc. That prohibition, if you were to violate it, would if this bill were to become law, be a 10 violation.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That would be a 10 violation, and I don't think this one is one of the ones that it's not my notes. That is it is not one of the ones that is currently a 20 violation. So this would just this is a new 10 violations.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: So what would what would be the penalty currently for violating that part of statute?

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And that is a good question if we can ask our guests.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Yes. Yeah. It's currently a 20 pointer. It is? Okay. Okay. It is currently a 20 pointer.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. Well, you mean, just

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: I'm sorry.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: For the record Sure.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Justin Steadman directed the warden service for the record. My apologies. So it is currently a 20 pointer, sir. And it was done inadvertently in the way the language is crafted I see. A while ago. And so again, those the seasons run concurrent muzzleloader and archery. The idea is to simply encourage fair chase and and it is conceivable for someone doing muzzleloader hunting during the archery season and archery hunting during the muzzleloader season and we're just saying you can't carry both implements at the same time and it's trying to right size sort of as as I said when I was here before, basically, most of the methods we're trying to put at about 10 points because we feel that that's a reasonable threshold for these sorts of violations. Hopefully I explained that correctly. Sorry. That's clear. Thank you.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And my apologies to the committee.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: While you have the floor, just to summarize, to make sure I heard this correctly the other day, it sounds like perhaps the difference between the 10 and the 20 violations was creating a little bit of reticence on the part of your wardens, and you're you're sort of feeling like you're by going to 10 points for these violations, maybe you'll issue a few more violations, and it it's more, you think, appropriate to the crime.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Yes, ma'am. So two things. Yes. And, also, it's sort of a byproduct of the experiences we're having with the courts, which in a lot of cases are trying to reduce caseload by making deals to get things out of the courts. So some of these ones where we feel like we can give on, we're trying to to give us the ability to go back to the courts and be like, no, you need to take this one and you need to run because this one's serious as opposed to sending as I said before, as opposed to treating everything with a sledgehammer, we're trying to differentiate a little bit so that when we do bring the sledgehammer, those aren't just summarily kicked out by the courts is if I'm that's the fold sort of direction.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: And then Bradley did this for us, so I don't whoever but just reminding the committee, the 10 is a one year suspension, 20 is two.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: So 10 points is one year, 15 points is two years, and 20 points is three years. The one difference between the one and the others. So the two year and the three year both require the person to take honor ethics in order to get their license back. And just because you asked it, the reason there's a range is because points can also be assigned, individual points can be assigned when someone takes animals in violation of the laws. So if you have seven fish and you're only allowed five, you could be, you could, you are by statute supposed to get three additional points, and that's why there's a range because not everything is the five, ten, or 15, and so that's why you have the ranges there to accommodate that sort of nuance.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: You get three points for two extra fish?

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: So if the limit is yeah, no. Yes. But that's why there's a range. Yeah, no, that was good. I fell for it. I fell

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: for the bait.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And points can accumulate in a five year period as well, and so the the math might shake out differently.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Wow.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Y'all keep track of the points. So you get a point in one year. It drops off five years later. It's all in your computerized system that we learned about. Okay.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: We have a Lucy for that, and she's amazing. And when she goes, I'm definitely leaving because I don't wanna be there when when she goes because she knows everything.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: It's an actual person or

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Yeah. Lucy's been around. She's she does our all of our database stuff, and she is she's a rock star. I think she's now in the state, like, thirty five or forty years.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So And so she also is the person who would keep track of Posted LAN notification the the the the triplicate form that you

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: She also does that as well. Yes, ma'am.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Thanks. Representative Austin.

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: This is and this might be I'm just this is just my own understanding. You said something about equalizing the Chase. So do you I'm just wondering. You can it's just yes or no. Do you do that for all animals? Like, try to figure out

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: what Yes, ma'am. That's what we're trying to do. And some of this is for that very reason. We had like, for bear, we had some penalties that weren't the same as they were for deer that weren't the same as for moose that weren't the same as for turkey. So we're trying to white so we call those big game animals. We're trying to white size all of the big game animals to say, if you do this with turkey, it's 10 points. If you do this with deer, it's 10 points. If you do this with bear, it's 10 points because it wasn't that way. And so it was 20 with some and 10 for others. And so that's yes. We're trying to make it consistent across all the big game. That was longer than yes, no, but I just wanted to

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: add that one That's okay. It

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: like just you're trying to make it equal for the animal. You take into consideration.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Equal sort of the category of animal, if

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: that makes sense. Right. But in terms of the kill, in terms of the hunting, it sounds like you take into consideration the animals. Yes. Yes.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Like, we want we want quick, clean kills. We want, you know, fair chase. We want all that sort of stuff. Yes, ma'am. Okay. And and this is not really quick, I apologize. I won't talk any longer. This is not like anybody's doing. It's just, as I said before, this hadn't been touched in so long that things just got really mixed and mashed, and so we're just trying to correct a lot of stuff that had just sat idle for a long time. So that's why it's still out of line.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: Great. Thank you.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Some other violations in the deer management rule that are 10 points, I'll introduce the committee to novice season. And so if you're not familiar, novice season is is typically the weekend before the regular season where if it's an individual's first hunt and they are 16 and older and have completed an education course, they can participate in novice season knees season. So they they hunt before the actual season opens. And and so violations of the novice hunting season rules, however, will be subject to a 10 violation. And those are here in the statute limits to one white tailed deer for the novice hunting season, and one legal bunk buck may be taken during season or any deer if the board has authorized to taking or the antlerless deer during youth hunting weekend. And so there's there's more there, but we'll we'll move on in the interest of time. And then 13, feeding up deer. So some of these penalties have to do with feeding deer. And so no person shall feed a deer at any time in Vermont except under a license or permit. And or scientific research, and then, you know, a handful of other issues here, but by planting, cultivating, harvesting crops directly associated with bona fide agricultural practices, by distributing food material for livestock directly associated with bonafide agricultural practices, or by cutting trees and bush or incidental feeding. So you can't feed deer in Vermont unless you do one of those things. Violations of those rules could be a violation or or resultant points. Okay. And the next change is the bear management rule. We're on line eight of page three. Okay. Back up.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: So

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: this is appendix seven, and you'll see bear management rule. I believe that's one of the ones I have highlighted here, which means it is coming back in the 20 points. We'll talk about it again, but here it is. A violation of this rule, a person shall not harvest more than one black bear per calendar year, not to include animals taken pursuant to the statute, would be subject to a 10 violation. The next on the line 11 is appendix 11 or, excuse me, appendix 22, and, we're talking about turkeys.

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: I was gonna say, I I I got my answer. If you don't wanna go through each one of these, I mean, I'm fine. But if you don't like both.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So I think we need to go through them.

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: You do? Okay. Okay.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Barely till two. So what I'd like to do is go through them and then Okay. Okay.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And so appendix 22 is turkey hunting, and so 6.2 regulates shot sizes. I'll scroll down so you can see the language. Only number two or smaller shot size may be used or possessed when hunting turkeys. Sections eight point o through 8.5 are novice hunting rules, very similar to deer hunting. One bearded turkey per novice, and novice may also hunt during the spring season and take two bearded turkeys during that season. And so the specific rules for novice hunting, would be here subject to a 10 violation. Another thing just to highlight when we're looking at these statutes, they are limited. Right? And so only violations of section 6.28 o through 8.5 in appendix 22 would be subject to a 10 violation. Sure. Panic 33, moose management rules. And we'll look at section 12 and taking of moose. And, and so some specific, restrictions, related to taking the moose. So only the permittee, subpermittee, or guide shall participate in the hunt to take a moose. Hunters that are working together can't use portable radio transmitters, GPS, or cell phones to communicate during the hunt, but you can once after the the moose is legally tagged. You can't use electronic devices such as radio telemetry to, take a moose. No electronic devices may be a used to attract a moose. So if there's a device out there that would do that, you can't use it in the state of Vermont, and you can't shoot within 100 yards of a town, state, or federal highway as defined by statutes. And so in particular related to the moose, and there we go, We have appendix five, bow and arrow standards, and this relates to the size of the bow and arrow head. That's the width of the bow and arrow and the two sharp edges right there. And and then we pull up the next one that we're looking at, line 15 on page three, is section forty seven zero one, use of a bow gun. Oh, use of a gun, bow and arrow, crossbow, legal days in dogs. Okay. This one is so unless otherwise permitted by statute, these are the implements that you use to take game gunfire at arm's length, bow and arrow, or crossbow is authorized. You can only do it during you can't do it at nighttime, essentially. So person shall not take game between one half hour after sunset and one half hour before sunrise unless otherwise provided by statute. You can take game by use of the aid of dog. So a a person may take game or fur bearing animals during the open season with the aid of a dog unless otherwise prohibited by statute or by the rules of the board. And a person taking game with a gun may possess, carry, or use a gun suppressor in the act of taking game, and and that was a new change to the law. Okay. So now we're on page three, line 19, and we're going into the 20 violations. And so this is in the draft here. So the statute is forty seven zero two use of the light, and then the license penalty has the words firearm, muzzleloader, airbow, or rifle bow, a rifle, bow, or crossbow involved. And so this statute prohibits the use of alight when taking game, and the penalty here specifies the implements that would result in a violation of that penalty. So if you use you potentially throw or cast rays of spotlight, a jack or other official light on any highway or any field, woodland, or forest in order to spot, take, or attempt to take spot or take any local wild animal and that's prohibited. However, light may be used to take skunks and raccoons in accordance to the rules of the board. So use of light is strictly regulated here. Now we're going back to appendix seven. Alright.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Some things were removed,

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: and some things were added. So this one is a tricky one. So shooting hours, and we're talking bear management. So the shooting hours for bear management was taken away from a 20 violation. Take harvesting more than one black bear per of the calendar year was moved to a 10 violation. Anyone, pursuing just taking a look here. So any person hunting, pursuing, or harvesting any animal or in a manner taking a black bear with the use of dogs, and it goes into about using dogs to hunt a bear is no longer in this piece. And and then it describes legal methods. It's no longer a 20 violation in this piece as well.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Alright. So it's a lesser violation?

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: It is I don't think this is one of the ones that moved to a 10. Because the only thing maybe perhaps we could ask our guests because I was curious about this as well. So shooting hours, taking up bears with a dog, or violating legal methods to take a bear has to been taken out of the 20 violation section, but I also don't see them in the 10 violation unless a misreading fix.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: No. So forty seven forty five is the statute that talks about seasons. And so it was just seen as redundant to have this season in this section because it can be written as a 20 citation under the statute. And this way, when things change in the future, we just have less things to bring back to the committee. It was just it was in there twice. So so the season is covered by forty seven forty five.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: It's a 20 violation

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: point three year loss of license, all nine yards. Yeah, we were we weren't making that not a 20. Okay. Making that specific section not a 20 pointer in this because it's already covered in statute and it just seems redundant. So, we're just trying to reduce the number of things that we have to come back and change if they're covered by statute. So that's what we're attempting to do. Okay. And the same is true for several not exactly. Like, they're not all covered by bill seven forty five, but that same concept with some of the stuff we took out was just to try and limit the number of things we have to change in the future. Okay. Okay.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Some things that are added to the or that are remaining the 20 violation is some things regulated to dogs and packs, so no person shall take a black bear at the area of any unregistered dog. And d, a person taking a black bear at the area of dogs shall only take a black bear with a pack of dogs as defined in this rule. No person shall pursue, hunt, or take bear by relaying dogs slash packs. So different types of dogs, what what is defined as a pack, but what is not a pack is defined elsewhere in the statute. And and you can combine dogs into one pack so long as they they don't exceed more than six dogs in a pack. And then when you have that many dogs, restraining them in a in a dog box inside a vehicle. See, you cannot bait 7.1. No baiting, for the bears, and you can't sell dogs for purposes of taking a bear. And eight point two was the addition here. Upon regress of the game warden, the person harvesting the bear and the permit holder shall shall show and return to the kill site with the game warden was added as a 20 violation.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: K. Actually, I'm breaking my own rule here, but can you have a dog on top of the vehicle?

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: So can you have a dog on top?

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yes. Because it says in a box, they're commonly on top of vehicles in my experience.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: I was not fully paying attention. So which section are the appendix says it about?

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: 6.3 e. It says once hunting with dogs commences dogs not on the hunt shall be restrained in the dog box or inside the view.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Yes, that's what you're saying. Yeah, so if you did have that, it would have to be one of the dogs with a tag number. If you had a dog that did not have a tag number out of the box like that, that would be material. Material.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Into the top of the truck?

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: If it didn't

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: have the I'm not specifically commenting on that part, but in terms of the way this is written, if it is one of the dogs with one of the number tags, that would not be illegal. If it did not have one of the number tags, then I would read that as a.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: And it needs to be in the box? Yes. But is it legal to have it on top of the vehicle?

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: It is not a fish and wildlife violation. I don't know if it's an animal poultry violation, but it's not a fish and wildlife approach.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Can I explain to you, we're going back to turkey season?

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: So I think we all got this email from Barbara Lettie. She had a couple of recommendations, but I'll just read one of them. And she's recommending that the definition of release of hounds onto private posted properties should be clearly defined for all relevant statutes related to hounding to mean anytime a hound enters onto posted property, whether from an app of being released at the start of a chase or whether pursuing wildlife. So I'm just I'm just sharing that with you because a constituent wrote to the on Rutland. So

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Thank you. Yeah.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: We're going back to turkey season. So this one does specify that shooting hours are again or the shoot or excuse me. The shooting this specifies the shooting hours for turkey hunting. So 4.2 shooting hours are a little bit different than they were otherwise, one half hour before sunrise and twelve noon. And so those are shooting hours for Turkey. If you violate that, that is a 20 violation. Your legal Turkey is only wild turkeys with beards. And I'm just going to take turkeys with beards. 6.4, rifle shall not be used or carried by any person while hunting turkeys. So this is a piece that that defines the implement that you use to hunt. A person taking a turkey with a crossbow or a bow or any arrow may carry a handgun in accordance with the relevant statute. However, that person may not use the handgun to take the turkey. So you can carry a handgun, but you just can't use it. I think that is specified because, a lot of these violations might involve, you know, you just can't have a like a rifle when you're doing a certain activity, or or something of the sort. So you can have a handgun, and it's specifying that that is okay in this in this piece. Section 6.5, no person shall use dogs in the spring nor electronic calling devices, bait live decoys, or participate in cooperative drives during either season. So it kind of restricts the use of dogs. As I said before, dogs are permitted to use generally speaking, dogs are permitted to be used while you're hunting subject to regulations, and this is one of those restrictions that would narrow that otherwise category. Going on to appendix 33.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: It's really you are you you're you're scheduled in another committee at two.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I am. I I said it would be a few minutes late, so I can I can keep going? But not too much. But I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And let's see. We are again, we're going to the moose management rule, and we're scrolling all the way down to 13.7, which identifies the kill site. And so hunters who take a moose have to identify the kill site. And then this statute says, when asked and shall if requested, shall be required to take the department personnel to the kill site and or the site of the carcass, evisceration for purposes, but not limited to the verifying the cause of death at site of the kill to make sure you didn't use any unlawful weapons or or anything of that sort implements or anything of that sort. Appendix 31. This is a and, Hannah, I'm realizing now we haven't touched base about this, but I I have chatted about this with with Hannah. So this is a a place where our statutes don't match their statutes. And they Fish and Wildlife is responsible for as far as I know, after conferring with our staff at legislative council, Fish and Wildlife is responsible for uploading the statutes, and sometimes those get strange. I might be mistaken about that. And but I've conferred with our staff, and it it doesn't appear to be something that we can fix. That might be beyond me. But our statute says c, d, and e, c is repealed. Their statutes, say c, d, and e, f is repealed.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: So it's a rule.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. Excuse me. Rule. I'm sorry. So their rules say c, d, and e, f is repealed. And perhaps we can concur about that at some other point, unless you have an answer for that now.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: No. For the record, this is gonna snap with Fish and Wildlife, and it's it seems to be an issue with version control.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Okay.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: We don't upload them. I send the rules to Lexis,

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: which

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: is supposed to maintain the database. And the rule that's currently uploaded to Lexis is different than the rule that appears on the legislature's website. So we don't upload anything anywhere. We send them to Lexis, and my understanding is that Lexis then provides staff at lunch counsel with the correct version, and we've identified a number of inconsistencies with the formatting. Correct. I'm slowly, in my free time, working through the giant app to send some some corrected versions of.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I think for this piece, we would need a corrected version

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Mhmm.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And and to get that managed with Lexis. Because this piece would change a penalty and a 20 penalty.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Can I just ask, do we know which one is accurate?

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: Well, in the rules that I've reviewed so far, it appears that the formatting is more consistently correct on the Lexis database than on the legislature's website. I don't

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: know why that is. So it's formatting, it's not really content.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: For the most part, it's formatting. So, case one, for example, this particular rule, the Lexis one, there was, so it's the 31C, D, and E, and there was a repeal and Lexus just bumped them all up. And so that didn't happen on the other one. So there's still a, I think it's C that says repeal and then it's D, E and F versus it being bumped up on the other version of the rule. So the content is exactly the same. It's just that they used c d and

[Rep. Sarah “Sarita” Austin (Clerk/Member)]: e instead of d and f.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So okay. And so as as we're discussing this, it might be best to, one, try to get that fixed

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Yeah.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Now or as soon as we can Yes. Or changing the language here. Right? Because I think it is this would be confusing as written. This is confusing for the public if they're trying to determine what is a violation and what's not a violation.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: I I entirely agree. I will also say that the way that this is written does state you know, it it does refer to the section numbers, but it also states that these are seasons and bag limits for Pierowu elf readers, It is exactly what it's that the section numbers are wrong.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And so we could we could just take out the section numbers and say

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Could do

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: that. Season and billets for bag limits for caribou elk.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: Yeah. And I know that the effort was to use the citations rather than the plain language, But for consistency, either option works if I can make sure that the versions are correct on both websites.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And if you know someone in office, you you can confer what to get this fixed.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: Yeah. I think

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: that that would be a good next step too.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: Yes. Thank you. It was yes. You guys are quite busy this time of year, and I'm trying not to waste time with version control. But I'm trying to

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: get this through.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So so I I think if we are to one thing for the committee to consider would be, to take out the specific citations to c d and e, and just say season limits for, caribou, mooch, and moose and elk. There are no bag limits. You can't take caribou or elk in Vermont. Moose is defined by regulation elsewhere, and that's subject to change. I I think that there's some history with with hunting moose that is related to moose control in populations. It's been in the news lately too. But bag limits for caribou and elk are currently at zero, and then moose limits are are defined elsewhere. And you see that in the statute here. And then the last piece that has changed is appendix 37. We're looking at line 12, page four, and I will pull that up. And I might need to run the house ag. Okay. And then so this is the deer management rule. So this is how I am this is how this is written in the statute. Right now, it says it says appendix 37. The underlying piece is not there, deer management rule. So, the entire deer management rule is a section 20 violation. Any violation of the deer management rule at all is currently a 20 violation. I I misread that earlier. Now only these specific sections are 20 violations, and I will show those to you now. And so cannot carry firearms other than one single barrel muscle loading firearm as defined by statute while hunting deer during the muscle loading season. So this section talks about October muscle loader season. You can only carry one of those weapons or you cannot, you can only carry one of those weapons and no other firearms or else that would be a 20 violation for the December muscle loader season. Similar rule, you can only carry one of those weapons, implements, and as defined by statute while hunting during that season. And we are on 9.4. It's related to archery. A person should only use a bow and arrow or crossbow to take deer during during the archery season, which the dates are defined up there. 9.5, a holder of an archery license or a super sport license hunting with a bow or arrow or crossbow may possess a handgun while archery hunting provided license holder did not take game by firearm while hunting with bow and arrow.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So these are all becoming 10 points?

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: These are already 20 violations, and so most of the deer hunting rules have been moved to the 10 violation section. These are staying as 20 violations. And so it's a change because currently, this entire appendix is a 20 violation. And so the draft here shows that this is a change because they're actually staying a 20 violation as we're specifying. That is confusing. But but it is the change here on the draft as written shows that these things are actually staying 20 violations when they're already a 20 violation. Looking at number 12, reporting violations 12.2, upon request, a person harvesting a deer shall show and return to the kill site with a game warden. And no person shall take deer by using baits except accepted from this prohibition r and then some some exceptions to that.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: And

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: and there we have it. Oh, actually, there is one more piece. And the last piece is, the very first thing that we talked about was shooting from a motor vehicle. And so b through, the rest of the statute are 10 violations. The 20 violation is actually shooting from a motor vehicle, as defines, any motor propelled craft or vehicle, drawn by a motor propelled vehicle except as permitted under subsection e. Shooting for or taking wild animal by shooting from a vehicle is a 20 violation.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Quick question.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. It's it's not going to be quick, so I hope we can get you back. I want to just put it out there as something that I'd like to follow-up on. One is that all these dependencies are rules, but we're changed. Usually that's the department creates the rule. So I'm a little unclear as to how it's in statute, it's rule. But I'd like to have that conversation a little later.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: Okay.

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: And then the other part is when we just were going through appendix 37, you were telling us about these sections which are staying 20 violations. But what's really changing is that all the other ones are becoming 10. And so I think I'd love to be able to come back at some point and talk about all the ones that are actually changing the the penalty so we actually know what what those are. I think if that makes sense.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: If

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I might, does the department have just an English version of this? Or could you provide one of that table, a summary, something that would help us

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: explain this on each of these references means?

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: What it's doing Because we have to explain this to 150 people. Remove it forward. That would be very helpful.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: To answer Representative Zachloud's question, the board rules are in appendices to Title X by edict of the legislature in the 60s when the I'm not really sure why, but they are rules that we update through the rule making process under the APA, and they just remain in statute as an appendix to Title 10. Like with Brady, the problem people would provide a much more articulate explanation of that.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. If I

[Rep. Larry Satcowitz (Ranking Member)]: use official wildlife rules, then why are why are we considering the changes here?

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: You're not changing the rules. You're just updating the cross references that are in statute.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: The rules are already changed.

[Hannah (Vermont Fish & Wildlife Department counsel/staff)]: The statute just articulates the number of points assessed for each violation, which is under your jurisdiction. As

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: I was saying, it hadn't been done, so we're trying to get you folks to change the statute to match the ways that are currently in place because when the wardens go to court, defense attorneys pick up on the nuances of A versus B versus C and then things get thrown out because they aren't properly cited or they don't properly align. That's where this all runs afoul.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: But you didn't change the rules in advance of us changing the statute.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: No. Correct. This 45 of a two before last year, I don't believe they've done this in fifteen or twenty years.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I'm just saying you didn't change the penalties.

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: No, we don't. Don't have any control over this.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Rather, you I do. Oh, sure. You.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Is Michael coming or not?

[Justin Steadman (Director, Warden Service, Vermont Department of Fish & Wildlife)]: He's not coming. He's right. Yeah, I can go. Okay, great. Yes, thank you.

[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Thanks. Thank you very much.

[Bradley Sherman (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you.