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[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Goodbye. Welcome back to the House Environment Committee. We are going to stay with the same topic, page six fifty two, and we welcome Kevin Burke from PC.
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: Doctor Sheldon, committee members. Kevin Burke, for the record, director of the Vermont Watershed Management Division, DEC. And I know there was a fair amount of testimony in advance of my arrival, but I'm certainly happy to answer any questions that may have come up, that I can answer. Generally, the department doesn't really support the absolute prohibition of the discharge of the treated leachate within the Lake Memphremagog watershed. I know it's a complicated issue. There are a lot of national issues with regards to PFAS and related contaminants, and there's there's a lot of work to develop standards as well, some of which have been recommended at this point, but not yet formally adopted.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Alright. So that's it. Can you expound a little bit about why you don't support it? Or
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: Well, I think first it creates not really. I think one one person that did testify earlier did note that it really just takes it from one watershed to another watershed. It's not necessarily a solution. We are also working closely with the Coventry Landfill on the pilot to remove PFAS from the leachate. It's hard for us to also restrict discharges for contaminant that is at you know, we don't have a surface water quality standard presently. We don't have either a human health water quality criteria or aquatic life criteria. But I'll say EPA has adopted a national recommended aquatic life criteria, for some of the contaminants. They're not specific to human health, but if they're not exceeded, they protect aquatic biota in surface waters.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: What is that standard?
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: I don't have the specific value in front of me, but it's aquatic life criteria for p o PFOS and PFOA. And those are magnitude higher than, say, draft human health criteria.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So what so what is like, what when will we have a state standard?
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: Because it EPA has the has adopted the national recommended aquatic life criteria, we can we could Vermont could adopt the aquatic life criteria in our next water quality standard triennial review, which would be essentially started probably at the '20 of this year, 2026. That that process is subject to public comment. So once EPA finalizes any type of human health criteria, we could do the same thing.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: I guess I thought we had adopted
[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: I
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: get a little confused because of actually Matt Chapin's changing roles and where I was in my legislative career. But remind me where we are. We have a surface water standard, but not a drinking water standard in Vermont.
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: We do not have a surface water standard. Okay.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So other way around then. So what is the drinking water standard?
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: Yeah. I'm not 100 up to speed on all of the drinking water standards. I would have to defer, but if if somebody here is aware of what that value is, I would defer to them. Why do you park the trillions with a combined five compounds? There are some federal standards for individual compounds, and so four, DPT is the federal standard for QF compounds. Those are the drinking water MCLs? Yes. Maybe
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: it would help to understand the watershed division's role in this. So we
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: yeah. In the development of standards?
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Yeah. In the permitting of this process or in like, how is it that, you're here with us today to comment on this topic?
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: Our department, our division has issued the pretreatment permit for Casella pilot, the sap unit that's treating the leachate, that will be treating the leachate prior to taking the leachate for additional treatment. So our goal is to remove as much PFAS from leachate as possible prior to treating the leachate as it normally would. So I think we you know, if we had a standard that we could rely upon, a surface water quality standard in our standards, that would, you know, certainly give us more leverage to manage, you know, not only, say, this type of discharge, but other discharges. There's PFAS in wastewater treatment plant facilities just from standard household products. So right now, we're really just looking you know, this this bill looks at one type of facility, one discharge, when in reality, you know, there is there is other other sources of PFAS, entering surface waters. And we do you know, there is there is a fair amount of monitoring to learn about what those concentrations are in our wastewater treatment plants and so forth. But in terms of technology for removing and destroying those compounds, I think that's that's still being developed and still complicated as to how that fits into all the various facilities that hold the discharge program.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: So what's between us and getting surface water standard? Because I thought that was something we set in motion years ago.
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: I think it's it's it's complicated. I don't think Vermont has had really the resources to develop criteria for some of these compounds. So I think there is a real need to to to rely upon, EPA and and other federal partners to get at what those criteria should be. It's I think it's a it's it's a fair amount of work. I think we do coordinate to some degree to the extent that we can to provide input. We're also coordinating with Department of Health, Department of Fish and Wildlife simply because there's you know, these contaminants can end up in fish for consumption, water for consumption. It it's it's complicated, but we you know, now that EPA does have recommended aquatic life criteria for certain PFAS contaminants, we can now, through our triennial review of the Vermont water quality standards, adopt those that were recommended. And the same could be said about when the human health criteria are recommended by EPA. We would have the the ability to adopt those. And it would be subject you know, those adding those criteria to the standards would be subject to public comment. Representative representative, if this bill were to go into effect as as written, what would happen? What would be the changes from the status quo on the landscape? I I don't know what the ultimate change would be in terms of how that would affect where it's taken or, you know, if it would affect other solid waste facilities. I think Matt Chapin would probably have a better handle as to how that would transport of leachate and, you know, if there was an absolute prohibition in this watershed, how that would affect things going forward. I can certainly ask that question and bring that information back to you. I just don't wanna miss misspeak on what the implications of that would be.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Tagliavia.
[Rep. Michael "Mike" Tagliavia (Member)]: We heard testimony about elimination technology. Is the state also looking at that and trying to, I don't know, help or find out ways that we can deal with some of the PFAS when it is finally separated out of leachate to accelerate the process.
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: I know our our wastewater direct discharge wastewater program does, you know, is engaged with looking at what other technologies have been deployed outside of Vermont, including, you know, what's going on in New Hampshire, Maine, New York. I think it's it's it's somewhat evolving constantly. So I think, yeah, understanding sort of what what might be available in Vermont, it could it could include cost analysis. I really know that it's quite complicated to determine sort of how many levels of treatment are enough What's feasible here? I'm not an expert on those technologies, but I do know that we're well aware that there's some of these technologies are deployed elsewhere, you know, that align with what the pilot is for Coventry.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Representative Austin.
[Rep. Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: So do all makes in Vermont get tested for PFAS to look at their levels? I
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: do not believe that all lakes are tested for PFAS. I don't I I'd have to check with our inland lake and Lake Champlain monitoring programs.
[Rep. Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Plan. I'd be really curious
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: Yes.
[Rep. Sarah "Sarita" Austin (Clerk)]: Just to know because I guess it is in lakes and just to kinda compare levels.
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: I'm I I know we probably have some data. It could be as a result of some of the wastewater treatment plant testing, but I can certainly find out what we have for where we are monitoring for it and where we are not. Thank you.
[Rep. Amy Sheldon (Chair)]: Further questions? Thanks for joining us. Thanks for
[Kevin Burke, Director, Vermont DEC Watershed Management Division]: having me.