Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Unidentified Committee Member/Staff]: We're live.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Good. I've asked Chad Lipty, representative, and make any comments he touches about this film because I think this is the first time he's seen it also, although he's very tired of the first scene. Thank you, Chad.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: Thank you, vice chair of labor. Thank you, committee. For the record, Jed Lipsky, Lemoyt won, and I do serve on the house agriculture food resilience and forestry committee. And for for those of you who saw this for the first time, I'm one of those who just seen this for the first time. But vice chair, if if you'd like some comments to move this along, I'm happy to say that and for full transparency, I'm a member I'm not an active member with Vermont Forest Products Association. I am also on the board of the Northeast Loggers Association and a member of the professional logging contractors Of the Northeast, and I also sit on Vermont Forest Future Strategic Roadmap Implementation Committee. I've been a professional logger for most of my life, but it's probably about fifty nine years. So having this diverse voice is heartwarming to me. Some of you were here back when 30 by thirty and fifty by 50 was being offered and supported, and I was quite alarmed at how the Vermont Forest landowners who participate, the 19,000 plus Vermont Forest landowners that are participating in the use value appraisal program, also known as current use, did not have an opportunity to testify, as well as the timber harvesting community. So you saw, and I'll point out a few whose voices I recognize and people I know, former commissioner Mike Schneider, who's a very enlightened forester, author, professor, also doctor Ali Kasiba who works for University of Vermont. She was the first carbon forester ever hired by a state agency. She now works for the u University of Vermont extension service. But these are very thoughtful and enlightened and with bring diverse opinions and knowledge to what in today to be a a responsible logger, there really isn't any other way. All of

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: the

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: responsibilities, whether it's for water quality, soil, sustainability, and productivity, wildlife habitat, particularly songbird, migratory songbird habitat, outdoor recreation. You saw Kingdom Trails represented and hunting, and, yes, the forest products industry and the rural Vermont economy and all the broader responsibilities that they take. But every harvest has to care about climate resiliency, has to care about water quality, has to think way into the future about biodiversity and invasives and a lot of responsibilities. So to see this organization fund and try to help educate the broader population means a lot to me. And if anyone has any questions before I pass it on to your other witnesses and go back to my committee, I'm

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: open for questions.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Representative Pritchard?

[Rep. Chris Pritchard (Member)]: I guess I just have one representative. You know, because you've been in in our committee during some of these informational testimonies that we've had on the wild lands bill, I'd like to hear how you feel and how does it how how do you feel it it will affect your industry?

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: Thank you, representative Pritchard, for the question. Basically, I think and I I thank the committee for having diverse witnesses here on this. Wildlands, as a notion from my perspective, is not scientifically based and is a little more emotionally based. But I I wanna underscore that active management, which is what I advocate for, and responsible active management is critical. We have ecological reserve areas in statute, and I assure you that the foresters and the logging community have been sensitive to these, not just now, but for decades, vernal pools, bogs, any streams, steep slope, fragile soil have have been avoided and not harvested on. Are there wetlands incursions have been historically? Of course, there have been. But under statute and under practices today, that's not how active management takes place. And I I guess I'd like to stress that we feel we play in the bigger picture of of the global greenhouse gas emission ecosystem diversity. Without active management, you cannot have a diverse structure. You can, just from a carbon perspective, creating early succession habitat sequesters much more carbon. So a lot of these issues, you know, older growth, which those characteristics will continually emerge. Our forests are getting older every year. We are cutting significantly less in Vermont, maybe three to one. We're growing more timber than we're harvesting. Other New England states, Connecticut, Massachusetts, one may be growing nine or 10 times more than they harvest. So New England is doing well in restoring the valuable characteristics of a diverse forest. But without active management, I feel strongly, and the scientific community feel strongly that that we are putting our forests in peril as opposed to by not intervening with science and care. So wild lands and I also there are 47 known forest types in North America. The northern hardwood forest type is the most diversified forest as far as species structure on any given acre. We can find 25 or 30 different, whether coniferous or deciduous trees on any given acre. You can go to forest types, dug fur, and these western hemlock forests that have one species for hundreds and hundreds, thousands of acres. So we have a lot of going for us for positive long term resiliency and biodiversity.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Thank you, Jim. We're running a little short on time.

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Thank you for your time. Well, thank you, committee, If one minute, please. Thank you, Larry. Hopefully, quick question for you. Thank you, representative. We've this kind of concept is not one that we really talk about here. This this matrix or patchwork of diverse landscape practices that we heard that several times in the video, rather than just large contiguous blocks of undisturbed wildlands. So my question to you is, what is the value of wildlands, old growth forests, and how big do they need to be? I mean, we're shooting for 9% of our landscape to like, percent of Vermont to be old growth. And I'm just curious what what what are your fields or what are your base scientific factions for

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: how big it should be and how continued it needs to be?

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: Well, the system of you call them pearl cuts are these modest half acre, three quarter of an acre, one acre clear patch cuts, and that was Mike Snyder who was educating us on the on that program. This has been a concept that's developed, I would say, in the last eighteen years, and it's become, you know, sort of the best possibility when you engage in active management to diminish the impacts while gaining some of these structural diversities and improving habitat, particularly for songbirds and other migratory species. But how does that conflict? Let let's talk about the the Worcester Range management plan that FPR has presented, and they propose to manage 10% of that over a twenty year period. But let's be accurate. In that 10%, there may be 30 or 40 or even 60% of many of those cuts that will not be touched. So it's really much less than 10%, and that allows for not statutorily wild lands, but science, common sense, and an appreciation for those unique ecological areas to remain intact and important for all the diverse values that our forest bring us.

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Well, thank you. Thank you. I'm here. Go back to

[Rep. Mike Tagliavia (Member)]: work. Thank

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: you very much.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Yeah. Thanks.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: Next, we have is it still live?

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Yeah. That

[Rep. Mike Tagliavia (Member)]: is it. Yes.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Next, we have of the later than planned. Sorry, Jason. Apologize. Not at all. We have the commissioner of Department of

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: Fish and Wildlife and staff member

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Andrea Shuxley. Miss discussed H23 and H608 licenses.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: Thank you very much. We are still alive.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: So happy to be here. I've I've also got with me our general counsel, Hannah Smith. And for the record, I'm Jason Batchelder. I'm commissioner of Department of Fish and Wildlife. I'll probably get into purple paint first if that's acceptable to you all. Hope you're, having a great Friday and look forward to the weekend. I also, I'm I'm plugged in here in case we wanna get into our conservation access license later, and I've got a a PowerPoint. But I I just brought some notes to talk about Purple Paint, you'll indulge me. As as you know, Vermont's got a long history with posting and this year, just to give you the full story, this year, due to actions of my own, we've had some some great attention on what it means to post, who really values posting private land as well. And, and that was certainly born of a an effort within the department, to to help landowners, hunters, wardens, attorneys understand, what three sixty five days of posting actually meant. Because we were we were, all over the place when it came to enforcement and folks who posted came to us and folks who managed posting like town clerks were, were often, asking us around around September every year, what it meant to post, each year, what to date your signs each year actually meant. And so for those of you who I haven't gotten to tell about this, we put forward an internal directive, or we've worked on an internal directive, sent it to town clerks that said January 1 to December 31 will be the will be the time that that we consider to be posted each year. It didn't change a rule. It didn't change a law. And it and it fell it fell poorly on on the general public. And I for that, I apologize. That was on me for not seeing some of the hardships that folks endure to to post their land. And we've rescinded that and agreed to honor posting as it was determined by the individual landowners for some time. It still leaves us in a bit of a conundrum at times when when individual cases are challenged. And and from from wardens all the way through to attorneys. When it when it comes down to posting your land, let's say you do it 09/01/2025, and we get to December, excuse me, we get to January 2026, someone could say that that sign was not posted each year. And that's why we did that. We have we have since, seen some great interest from the house and senate and others in helping us fix that. We've also agreed to do, rulemaking and sort of in name H723 and I believe, S311 are the two that aim to help us mirror one of the efforts that we're going to do, which is essentially allowing people to post any day that they want. Registering at the town clerk would become the date of posting, and it's good until that time next year. And I would still, I feel good about that bill. I feel good about those two bills. I feel good about leading with that. I don't feel as warm about purple paint. And, I guess that'll cue my, my short testimony about this year. But I've been doing some homework about Purple Paint. And the way I see it, that Purple Paint, is an effort to make posting easier for a person or an agent to be able to post their own land marking corners and boundaries with with purple paint. We at the department depend heavily on private, land, open private land for our ability to hunt, fish, forage, and otherwise access private land. And I'm certainly I won't hide from that we we depend on and we we value, our private landowners here in Vermont. We are strong defenders of private land and wardens take complaints very seriously. When land is posted, we defend that person's right to post across the board. But it might surprise you to know, and I've told you some of the some some of you these numbers that that of the roughly 8,650 calls that wardens fielded last year, 8,650 plus, it's a little more than that, I believe. Around 50 of those were posted land complaints. So one half of 1% of their time, was spent fielding posted property, private property complaints. Undoubtedly, were some that weren't captured, were handled by a phone call, but those were the meaningful complaints where someone, was was in withdrawing the of a landowner and drew the of a warden and there was a case made. As you can see, it's a low probability occurrence. It's a low, it's a low numbers occurrence for us. And I believe that leads to Vermonters, respect for land and landowners respect for Vermonters, hunters, not specifically, I think anyone, who values private land and values their, privilege to own private land, which I do and I treat it as such a privilege. It's not an occurrence because Vermonters respect it. And I know landowners want to be respected. And that's that's why we're here. Vermonters respected because they know what a sign means. They see a sign and they turn around and leave or they go and knock on a door 99.999% of the time. And I was just in the Senate, and I heard Brett Morrow say the same thing. That's how he was raised. And that's how the majority of folks that I know, are raised. And it's certainly what the department teaches. Don't look at the date, you see a sign turn around. Purple paint laws are used throughout the country. People in Vermont are likely most familiar with Maine's Purple Paint Law, which restricts permission for any reason without permission of the landowner to access that land. And I didn't read their law verbatim, but I did discuss with with their private lands corporal at the warden service. And it's similar to if he if he had come and asked me how how how we like it. He said some some people love it, some people don't love it. But he said in reality, people use, signs as well in Maine. They some use purple paint, some use signs as well. It's not it's not a fix all to have purple paint. He said some people like the signs because everyone knows what they mean. And he said some people don't want to paint their beautiful trees, and I quote with Barney purple paint. Oh, I thought that was pretty funny. Sorry. And his main accent really helped. So people do use signs as well. Purple paint has been used around the country and other places like Texas, and Texas is also a right to hunt state like like, you know, Vermont is. But that's where the similarities end in most states, right? Vermont has, a de facto right to roam, not in law, but we like to think we have a de facto right to roam. Texas uses their purple paint to mark boundaries. In addition to an added, no hunting, notification. But if that purple paint is not there in Texas, god help you if you should try and go hunt there. Right? Not the case in Vermont. So, what what I'm saying is it's it's it's not an apples to apples comparison across states. You have, let let me back up. I've got a sentence here I wanna read. So Vermont enjoys a de facto right to roam, and we also have an actual right to hunt for our constitution, which you which you do know.

[Unidentified Committee Member/Staff]: And they just

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Just to clarify, right to roam means what?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Oh, it's it's a

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: walk on anybody's

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: section if it's We

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: don't we don't have that in in rule or law. I I included de facto because I I grew up feeling and knowing that if someone's land wasn't posted, I could go on it. I wasn't taught to do that. I was taught to go knock on a door if I wanted to use someone else's land. But there but there are, if you're up in the mountains and you're you're walking, not not seeing posted signs, you're you're generally okay to to to walk in Rome and forage, right? And and certainly to hunt by, by constitution, we always recommend you know where you are, and you know, whose land that you are on. And and certainly, we go a long way out of our way to teach that in hunter education and all of our education, platforms. So

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: you just said that there weren't I think there are laws around what's called trespass, which might be related to right to Rome. So when you say right to Rome, you're acknowledging there's no constitutional anything Correct. In Vermont, but there are trespass laws. But what we learned yesterday from ledge counsel is our trespass laws are a completely different set of statutes than our our posting and related to to Hunt and Hunt. Probably my understanding yesterday, though nobody said this, is probably because we have a constitutional right to hunt. So we have separate statutes specifically about that.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: You're exactly right.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: Okay. So many people feel they can did the laws actually say if something's not posted? We didn't hear about the trespass laws yesterday. Sure. Sure. We haven't really gotten this. So are you able to just clarify that

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Absolutely.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: It adds up what that means?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: So title 13, and I can't give you the direct statute, but it's an easy one to find. Allows for notice to be given to anyone that they are not welcome on land if they are doing any activity, hiking, walking, mountain biking, if you see a posted sign, you may not cross it, you've been given notice and that can be actual, it can be read. And I think Hannah could probably help me with this, when I practice this as a warden, if someone was not hunting, not fishing, trapping is completely different because you must have landowner permission to trap. So trapping is left out of this. Even though the signs do say it, you could not go on private land and trap without without notifying the the landowner of your intentions and they say no, it's no. So traveling kind of gets left out of this. But if if you were mountain biking, you saw a post it sign and you crossed it, you you are subject to to criminal penalty in title 13. If you are hunting because constitution says you have to have what you have a right, and lands not enclosed, you as the general assembly have have defined what enclosed means and it's I n c l o s e d, not e n, right? It's a funny word that we don't use anymore. But you've you've defined what enclosed means. And that has become the what what posting is. So walking, see a sign, you must stop hunting, you see a posted sign, I'm sorry, a no trespassing sign, you should stop. And and almost we teach you to stop, and everyone that knows better stops. Had you not seen this well, let's let's say you decided to to trespass. Go across that sign. The way it has been determined, because we have the constitution constitutional right to hunt and fish, you could not be prosecuted because those signs do not meet what you have said enclosed has to be.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: What I'm hearing, just to clarify, is trespassing, one of the things that don't include hunting and fishing. If you see a sign, it have the same detail, like how far apart the signs need to be and such. If you see something that you think might say you shouldn't be trespassing, you really need to stop. But if you're hunting or fishing, then there's much more specificity about exactly how those signs need to be posted, dated, spaced. And so it's another level of

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Right. And and it's all defined in fifty two zero one and in in in rule 14. Thank you so much. It it's complicated, and it it was a long education for me as a young warden to learn that. But I appreciate that.

[Hannah Smith, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Jason, I this is Hannah Smith with the department. I think the legal breakdown, which is probably more than you all need right now, but the courts have determined that constructive notice is enough to warn you against trespass. So if you know you shouldn't be there, you can be prosecuted. It does not apply in terms of hunting. Has to actually be you have to be the landowner has to have met the specific requirements around enclosure. So just on, sorry.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Representative Kate.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: So just on constructive notice, that might be something like verbal, somebody said verbally or sent you a letter. There's a lot of other ways that could be.

[Hannah Smith, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: It's a doctrine that's commonly known as a legal fiction. If you know, if you're supposed to know. It's harder to determine, but it's intended to protect landowners from unauthorized trespass. It does not apply in the context of hunting, usually. Okay.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I think that that runs me through my enclosed, part of what I was going to say. But I'd almost conclude here about what I've got to say that in the onset of the bill, I said that that this this law, this purple paint law, is created to make it easier to post. And I and I like to to turn and ask if if, if it should be easier to post because because we have the right to hunt in Vermont, I would I would encourage you to consider implications of making it easier to post. And I've I've brought a few. Consider a new hunter or or a not new hunter who lives in Downtown Burlington and and does not own any land. Having great amounts of posted land is is a deterrent to that hunter. You might ask a career forester like like representative lives key, who looks at the for forested landscape, and its inability to regenerate because of of over browsing. And and a and a teenager like like my son, who I wish would roam more, but he he likes to he likes to be inside. I love him too. But asking a teenager who who wants to roam with or without hunting, should should there be more posted land? And and saying these things, coming from all respect of private landowners, which I truly feel and defend. I I don't feel like there should be, my my personal opinion. I think there should be more open land and not less. But, again, certainly leave that to you with the caveat that I respect all rights to post and and private land. I I feel, with that being said, I I don't support support six zero eight. I, again, would steer you toward seven two three, and then I would open it up for questions about that about that rant.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Representative Taika Levin, then representative Logan. And, Sarita, did you

[Rep. Mike Tagliavia (Member)]: have your and then representative Austin in that order, please. With respect to posting, it's kind of a two part question. In Vermont, we have our licenses that go from January 1 to December 31. In other states, it goes from sometime in August for the hunting year. If we were to do that, change the licensure date for hunting, would that make it easier for people who wanted to post because they could do, like, for the '25, '26, they could do that 2025 slash 2026 on a poster. Would that help alleviate some of the issues, in your opinion?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I'm struggling with the correlation of hunting to posting except outside of the dates that would remind everyone it's time to post or it's time to buy their license. Can see the correlation there. Coincidentally, or maybe not coincidentally, we are looking to change our phishing license to a three sixty five day license. So that would be applicable here whenever you bought it, it would be good till that year. We are pushing for that this year. And you may see some language on that soon. But I I guess my answer is I don't know. And happy to happy to have you

[Rep. Mike Tagliavia (Member)]: educate me more. Well, the like, with the instance, like you said, making it for the ease of posting, It's I don't mind walking through the snow with my dogs. And, you know, if I have to post this time of year, that's fine. But for some people who might not wanna walk through two feet of snow, if they do it in July or August, when you can walk in it. It's generally dry depending on what kind of a year we have. But I I also like the idea of that because there's vegetation, so you can make your signs more visible because they're supposed to be visible as well. Just kind of spitballing, throwing in and out there to maybe alleviate some issues. And the other question is, I know New York does a license from I think it's August 15. I don't know what our other neighbors do with the when the license expires or when when do you wanna renew versus Vermont. I'm not I'm I'm not familiar with New Hampshire or Maine.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Yeah. New York, I you're correct. It's right around that time every year, and New Hampshire and Maine are both a calendar year license. I'm not sure about Massachusetts. I haven't bought a license there. But I but I certainly think that the the effort that our our rule intends to to cover and then also seven two three and three eleven, they they both would allow any time that you would wanna post, you could go out and do it. And and the registration date with the town clerk would be the time that that is that is properly and legally posted. It would also just a just maybe a a a frivolous thing. It would it would stop, the the huge influx of paperwork to the town clerks at a certain time of the year, which I I don't know if there's a burden or not, but it can't be easy to get all this all this paperwork at the same time every year. I haven't heard from them that it's an issue, but who knows?

[Rep. Mike Tagliavia (Member)]: Yeah. Thank you.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Thank you.

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: You're okay? Yes. Thank you. Representative.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes. Thank thank you. Good to see you again. Think one of the things that we've heard from constituents is how difficult for Vermonters to post their land here. And I'm just wondering if there's a you know, I'm wondering, like, why couldn't you post and when you don't want it posted, you somehow have a way of ending the posting. I'm trying to understand why you have to do it every year. I'm assuming there's a reason for identifying the landowner on the posting. And I also was reading last night about through our codes that they're putting on posting now. So you could if you have a self coverage and you have a phone, you can see maybe you can hunt and fish but not trap. I mean, that could be a lot of information on the QO. And I'm just wondering with technology, if there's just a way to do posting where people don't have to do it physically.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Sure. I think to answer that last question first, to do posting without notification would lead us to what would be a what would be called a reverse posting state where land is all private and unless you say people can come on it. Certainly not the direction I personally feel we need to go. But some nuances in some of the things that you said so signs currently don't have to have any notification of who the landowner is just for clarification, they need to be dated, but they don't need there is a on for your signature, but you don't have to do that according to according to what the general assembly has said. We do have, which was created in between 2013 and 2015 through commissioner Barry is is the ability to post by permission only. And we encourage that, whenever we have the ability and we have a spot on our website that allows you to print those signs for a template hunting by permission only. And that would allow a person to approach a landowner and say, look, I just want to I just wanna take mushrooms, or I just wanna I just wanna hunt rabbits. And and I think that that that was a really brilliant idea on his part and and a great concession that the general assembly made for us to be allowed to do that. And and to go back to the earlier your your first statement, it is it is a challenge if people own a a huge portion of land in Vermont to post. I I completely commiserate with that. I have seen folks seek out help from other folks to to make sure that their corners and boundaries are marked. But it but it it is it is, like, I believe and I I don't wanna get too far into the weeds on this, but I think it is it is such a wonderful thing to be a landowner and a privilege and to have an intimate relationship with your with your neighbors and your boundaries and perhaps the hunters that come on your land. And that it that it may not be such an awful thing to have a little bit of effort be required to do it. I know that that's, that's self serving. And know that that's hard for people for me to say and for people to hear if I just don't want people on my land. I get that. And that there are certainly ways for folks to go about posting that I I'm happy to talk to anyone about and and even find of health. Okay. Yeah. Good. Because I know that some people just can't do it.

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Yeah.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Representative Hoyt. Thank you, mister chair. Hi, mister. Nice to see you.

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Thank you. Is there any

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: there'll be any issues with just, you know, you you register with the town clerk and then you your posting just lasts for a year from that date so that you can do it at different times of the year?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Not that not that I can see. Not that I can see. Certainly, I'm just one person, but we've we've asked around, and it seems as though that that is an amicable way amicable way to move ahead. Having the the date of registration be the date of posting. Okay. And still, we still have the requirement to date. But within this conversation, having the ability to post three sixty five days without worrying about what day that is, would also have an allowance of putting two years on there at once. And this may be the first time I've said this in public, because this has been contentious. Writing the year 2526, or more appropriately 2627, right? And registering twice, we feel that that's okay. We feel that that would meet the letter of the law. Because if you're not worried about your signs falling down, or you're not worried about other- So you

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: could go for two years.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: For two years with one pass. Yep. Yep. And and I and I encourage folks to make sure they are in close contact with their with their signs or whomever's posting for them. Because squirrels love to make nests out of them. Yeah. They freeze blow down. Right? And and at certain times of the year, there is there is forestation and foliage. But I I think that that's something we Just one follow-up if I could just here.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Just because I don't really know. So I decide to post my land and then I decide I don't want to post it anymore. Like, just go rip down the signs and that's sufficient or do I have to get back in touch

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: with the town clerk?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I'll I'll leave that one to to counsel on on the second part of the question. Yeah. That'd be my first step is to is to just to get the signs. Unregistering with the town clerk. I think it might be just as easy as

[Hannah Smith, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: If the signs aren't there,

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: it doesn't.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Thank you.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Representative Frickard and That's

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: what I was wondering about Sarita.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Oh, sorry. You? Me? Yeah. Okay. Okay. With the purple paint, like, if you decided not to post anymore, you sold your land. I what are you what happened? Do you cut down the tree? Or

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I think pragmatically, you're you're left with cutting the tree down brown paint over the purple paint, covering up in some manner. I I haven't gotten that far with the folks that that live with it. I do know that some people put up posts with purple paint on the posts, and I think that suffices in some areas. I'm not sure the intent of this law, but putting up a post with a board on it would stripes. I think those are some of the ways that folks go about it. It does bring up one of the many issues, which we don't need to get into many of them, having your land posted by someone that you don't want to do it Right. Purple paints are really a really easy way to do it.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I thought of that.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: And that did come up in in the conversation, with one of the folks I have. But people could do that with with science too. Yeah. I don't wanna yeah. Pretend like that might be a huge issue. Correct. That's

[Rep. Chris Pritchard (Member)]: yeah. So we yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Thank you. Alright. And thanks for doing this, commissioner. Yeah. We heard on two bills yesterday, and, you know, the the the the zero eight, it was a short form bill. There's a lot of questions, you know, that we had and a lot of concerns I had with them. And I don't know about the other members, but I probably got 100 emails on this purple paint thing. So, and I would say the overwhelming majority of these emails were from folks that were older, elderly, that just couldn't It was very difficult for them to get out of, or a disability. I mean, it was overwhelming, you know, the amount of emails I got. So from my perspective, you know, I'm trying to think of a way to how can we accommodate these people and make it a little easier for them. If I'm hearing this two year thing, I'm kind of liking that. I I like the idea of that. It just, you know, giving them an extension so this doesn't have to, you know, to to be so difficult and and hard on. So if consideration can be done, you know, and I don't know what what a reasonable term would be. Obviously, you have, you know, signs will deteriorate a little bit and you can squirrels get into them and and a bunch of other stuff but, you know, I I I think, you know, having some way to, you know, to help these folks out with this concern, I think, is important to me. You know, purple paint thing just, I brought up so many concerns of how this thing can go sideways, and as you said, mean, there's nothing stopping anybody from getting 10 cans of paint and paint in the whole state of Vermont. And so I just, what I heard from this, from most of the people, the purple paint was about convenience. It was about convenience, and it was about helping them with the concern. And I think we can still do that under the system that we have. And so I hope that's where we

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: If can respond to that, I completely commiserate. And I too got a lot of those emails. If it's any solace to folks who may be listening or that you could return a message to, I go back to my initial discussion around the 99.99% of Vermonters who see a sign even if it's in disrepair. And there are many examples of those, right? And it leads me to the origin of those signs and it leads me to the conclusion of those signs. The origin was probably bad experience, or or maybe a philosophical disagreement with hunting, fishing, consumptive use, use of any kind, doesn't matter. Right? I wouldn't ask a person why they post this. It's up to them. By leading them to the conclusion, why do you why do you want those post signs up? Do you want people excluded? Or do you want, people arrested, charged and convicted? And when you ask that question, which was something that we did a lot as wardens, it was almost never do I want this person arrested, charged and convicted? Sometimes, if it was the, you know, second offense maybe. And so I say all this to reassure folks that let's say they let a year go by. Let's say they let two years go by, and squirrel ate half their sign or something happened to one of their trees and it fell over. And they met all the other aspects of the law that they were required to meet. Or even if they were what we call roadside posted. The occurrences of trespass on that land just because of one sign are magnificent. They they one sign alone with no registering at the town clerk does it for so many people and keeps people off of their land even without any of of what the general assembly has asked them to do to to be what we call legally posted. Just doing that keeps most people off. It there to me, acknowledging that there's this nefarious group of hunters sneaking around reading dates on signs is is fun to think. It's funny. I saw it as wardens. There were people that are like, it's my constitutional right, on I can't even tell you how once maybe did I find someone that said, well, it's not legally posted. You can't stop me. That just did not happen. I'm And glad you gave me that opportunity to say that because I hadn't thought of it in a long time. But I should have been singing that originally, right? I should have been telling people, your signs are respected by almost everyone. Like, I'd like to say everyone because that's in reality, it's almost everyone. And so, not to say that these laws aren't there for them. But if a person that had a year or fell into a time when they were exposed, I I still don't think it's it's the end of of of people respecting their land. Yeah. Hopefully, that makes sense.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Mhmm. We have a lot of people wanting to speak. So first in order is representative Logan, then it's representative Tagliavia, then it's representative North, and then it's representative Austin.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: No. I'm about to

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: You're done. Thank you.

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Vice chair.

[Unidentified Committee Member/Staff]: Is there a reason we couldn't offer folks a longer posting period, especially if they wanted to, you know, install permanent relatively permanent signage of some kind to post their property that they would be responsible for removing if they were to sell the property or something like that and maintain in order to ensure that it's with the goal?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Sure. Do you thank you for the question. And do you mean permanent as in I'm not trying to be funny, but a monument or like a piece of granite or, like something immovable like that? Or do you mean something in statute that would say you're just good from here on out?

[Unidentified Committee Member/Staff]: I mean something more like a metal sign.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Yeah, certainly 100% lawful at as we sit here today. The only requirement, the only requirements is that they have to be eight and a half by 11 and of contrasting colors dated each year. That's the requirements of the sign. So if you live in the Rupert area, this is the only place I remember it being, but there are signs that used to have to be much bigger by by stat by by statute prior to 1960, I believe, or maybe prior to 1950. And they've grown into trees that are hundreds of years old. Trees have grown around them. And halfway through that tree is this metal sign that says all of the things that are required to be said to keep people off your land. It's really remarkable to see how resilient these trees are and how they've grown around these. And I know they still exist. I've seen them recently. So if you wanted to use metal rustproof, anything that you want, can certainly do that. The ones that are most easily accessible, the most easily accessible is our website, and you can print them. They're 8.5 by 11. That's I think that was some fourth forethought there. But then you can your hardware store these sort of type par type back signs that staple on the trees, they don't hurt the tree. And, I think those are the most easily accessible for folks. And that's why you see them. They're the ones people see and they go to. But if, I have a neighbor who meets the criteria we've discussed, and he wanted to post and I said, why don't we try safety zone signs, which some of you may be familiar with, and they're big, and they're, you know, they're visible. And so we did safety zones signs, for him. It just prevents shooting. He's like, don't want to keep I don't want to keep hikers off. He's like, I just worry about, you know, dogs, whatever he sees. He doesn't want he doesn't want people shooting on his land. So we did safety zone signs for him, and they're and they're free. They're not only big and visible, but they're free. And they don't restrict a person's ability to get an antlerless tag, which posting does. I don't know if you know about that whole rabbit hole. If you post, our antlerless lottery is not open to you as a as a landowner. And it's a way to to allow harvest of analyst deer to keep the forest regeneration. But those don't prohibit that. And it's not an issue for most people. But, yeah, I there there exists the ability to post with much bigger signs, much more resilient signs if they wish. That's just a easy fix.

[Unidentified Committee Member/Staff]: But then they have to update the year, every year on the sign? Yes. Is there any reason we wouldn't want to extend that period of that required period?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: It's a great question. So having this pressure of the right to hunt is the answer to that. I want everyone to know how much I respect private land, but as a person who's got 80,000 hunters, 70,000 hunters, depending on the year that need open private land, I don't want to make the path too easy, right, for folks to say to folks to slam the door on all these hunters. And, and I know that's a it's a difficult thing for me to sit here and say it's a difficult thing for people to to hear me say. But I think with our with our history and our constitution, it's something that I I have to say. I I need to look out for the hunters because I'm I am one and because I'm I'm I'm protective of them as much as I'm protective of the of the private landowners ability to post. We we give private landowners a good tool with which to post, and and we give hunters the education to stay off. So I I think meeting in the middle and and not giving too much on on either end is is where I'm is is my answer. I know it sounds political and mealy mouth.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: I have some more follow-up questions. Certainly.

[Unidentified Committee Member/Staff]: So I think one of the just to answer the question about, like, what or, you know, what motivated this in the first place, there was reference to older Vermonters or people with disabilities who just have it's just harder for them to access those signs, which is why the paint

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: was

[Unidentified Committee Member/Staff]: suggested. So I'm I'm just yeah. It just seems to me like there must be some sort of way to accommodate a need like that. And also make, you know, make hunting as accessible as possible.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Yeah. And I and I do think that there are there are there is an avenue that helps with that right now, and that's 723. It's not I've I'm talking a lot about it. It's not my bill, but it does it does align with some of the things we we think to do and we hope to do. Allow people to post when they want at a time that's convenient, nice days in in May or June, July, and then, and then allowing two years of of, you know, get your marker, you'd write two years on there instead of one, and then your trip to the town clerk is just is all you need to do to make that legal. And I think that's that is a good meet in the middle. There is there is also the bill that was introduced in the Senate this morning that proposes a five year runway. So that is undoubtedly something you'll hear about. I haven't had a chance to testify on it. It was just introduced an hour ago. Of course.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: First, Jack will deal.

[Rep. Mike Tagliavia (Member)]: Kind of following on the representative Butcher's comments about hardship. Whether you're going out into the woods to drive a post to then paint it or paint it and then post drive it into the ground or spraying paint on trees or brushing it onto trees or attacking a poster to a tree, I think we would for me, I would need to see it quantify the difference in arching, how one is so much easier than the other. They both sound great, I'm sure for a number of different people, they both work. But I would just because I received a number of emails and the hardship, I, you know, I know some of my land is a little bit more difficult to tack a poster on a tree because of how steep it might be or the proximity to a ditch for visibility, but I'm trying to figure out how the purple paint solves all of the hardship. I just hope that that's taken into consideration when we think of this.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: Thank you.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Representative North.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: Thank you, chair. First of all, interesting statistic. Eight and a half percent of men can't see purple. So I don't think purple paint works.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Certainly not unilateral frequency.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: But I'm very interested in in what representative Logan was questioning along the lines of having more permanent signage that you wouldn't have to visit on a frequent basis. What is limiting us to two years? It sounds like current statute or if we passed seven twenty three, is that what would be required to get to two years? And what's limiting it to two years if the word annually is still in there?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: So the word itself each or the words themselves each year are what was is why is why we're here because I thought I could fix that, by saying January 1 to December 31, giving everyone three sixty five full days, whereas saying each year can make people scratch their head over. It's not each year anymore if it says 2025. It says '25, it's '26. You're not dated each year, right? That was the conundrum we found ourselves in. And so if we went to three sixty five days, and you went out in June and did it, and you wrote '26, 20 '7 on there, come next June, if you trusted that your signs were all legitimate, maybe you did check them, you could just go to the town clerk and pay your $5 again, reregister, and you'd be all set. And so I do think 07/23, gets us to that point. It gets us gets us two years instead of one. It's clear, and it allows people to go whenever they like.

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: Why couldn't you say '26, '27, '28, '29, '30, '31, '32? That that's each year individually listed. Yeah. Pay, you know, $30 or, you know, whatever the Mhmm. So $5 a year or something like that.

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: Just

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: pay the times. However many years you wanna

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: go out after that. As long

[Rep. Rob North (Member)]: as you trust that sign to survive that long Mhmm.

[Rep. Mike Tagliavia (Member)]: That to instead still be allowable. That's each year if it's each year of what

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: do you think? We have discussed this internally, and we've settled ourselves on the two years, but I don't know beyond that. And I don't mean to point at you. I'm so sorry. I feel like we could come back with an answer to that without much trouble.

[Hannah Smith, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: You'd have to update the language around registrants annually as well. I mean, you'd have to revise the entire statute. It would make it significant. I think that the idea in part is what is the, what's the objective of this law? What's the requirement that you're trying to impose on private landowners? So no, I mean nothing, if you're looking at revising the entire section, you want to only require registration with the town clerk to happen every five years, and in the intervening time you can put right five years on your side and you never have to go back out there. The legislature has that discretion to make significant revisions. The way it's currently, do have to register annually and date each year, whatever that means.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: The bill that was introduced this morning, thank you very much. The bill that was introduced this morning proposes to do that. If I can speak for him, Senator Morrow has, at least one constituent with a lot of land. It's hard. They had a poaching incident they didn't like, and they they wanna post, but they wanna be able to to make it easier. They had some long straight shots. They can look with the binoculars. Those signs are there. I'm confident as long as but I can't see that they're dated. I I just wanna I wanna do it every five years. That And was his impetus behind introducing that. It gets to some of what you're saying, and we would we would certainly have, opportunity to to testify on that at another time. I haven't thought too much about the implications, but it's out there.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: That's just my question. Thank you. Representative Pritchard.

[Rep. Chris Pritchard (Member)]: So under seven twenty three well, I guess the first question I have that I wanna ask is, as far as land being posted, if a hunting or fishing trapping violation, I'm assuming that game wards are the enforcement part of that. Who's the enforcement part if it's trespass?

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Sometimes State police or is is that still within the wardens? Sometimes it's wardens. It it it depends, I should say. So criminal trespass would normally be handled by the enforcement entity that's responsible for that jurisdiction in a non title 10, enforcement setting. So wardens generally focus on title 10, they get into animal cruelty, which is title 13, They get into boating, which is title 23. If if there was a trespassing violation and and and, you know, wardens, troopers, deputy sheriffs, they're all friends. They all go to the same academy. They would talk. They say, you know what? This this guy is out there on private land or this gal's out there on private land. Would you if they'd ask a warden, a warden would go do it. So there's no there's nothing set in in stone. The warden's standard operating procedures manual says they'll focus on title title 10 as their primary duty. Take that for what you will. I as a warden, if if it was in the woods, I handled it. And if it was a a criminal trespass on on somebody's front lawn, it was it was likely a municipal officer or a trooper or a deputy sheriff.

[Rep. Chris Pritchard (Member)]: So we were told yesterday when the bill was presented by by legal counsel, and I just wanna clarify that, that the reason it was it you know, I thought it was kinda specific because it specifically said hunting, fishing, trapping. And we were told that that's because of statute. It didn't include trespassing. It didn't include any other activities. And I'm just I was wondering if is that really so? Is it is it

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: So I think I think

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I'm understanding your question. So fifty two zero one, I I have to look at it. I've got the book right here. I'd have to look at it to see if it includes the words trespassing. Unless you know right off the top of your head. You Do all have one of these? These are handy, and they're free. We can get you one if you want. They're not free, but they should be free to you.

[Hannah Smith, General Counsel, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Section fifty two zero one doesn't matter to chest paints.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Oh, there you go. So, yeah, it it's a good point, and I probably could answer this without looking. This fifty two zero one refers to poaching a private preserve. Some history for you, and maybe mister O'Grady got into it yesterday or or mister Shoman. They, posting was created in Vermont to, to give you your own place to hunt. It wasn't created to keep me out. It was created for you to have a place to hunt of your own. It's some funny history about that. It it's it's fun it's and it's hard to to think about that. Now we think about keeping hunters out because we don't like hunting. It was it was created to keep hunters out because I'm hunting it. And just some some neat history about that. So that's why it it doesn't include trespasses. Thank you for that. So this new bill is a senate bill that that was introduced this morning. It's a senate bill and and essentially does what s, excuse me, h seven two three does. It just it just extends the posting date out to five years. And as you said, you would have to you would have to date it this year, '26, '27, '28, 2930, and you you'd be good, or however you landed on how that would be notified. Could be you wrote '26 and people can count. It it's good for five years. So I but I haven't testified on it. I didn't hear the the full alleged counsel breakdown of of of their thoughts on it, but, undoubtedly, we will.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Representative Jacob?

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: I just wanted to share that it's s 299 from introduced by senator Mattis.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: I messed that up. Sorry. Sorry.

[Rep. Mike Tagliavia (Member)]: Thank you. It's 299.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Just a comment, I think. Thank you, mister chair. It sounds like the most comfortable area to approach would be a multi year posting and that the purple paint is not necessarily favored. It's kind of what I'm interpreting from the conversation and the answers that we're getting this morning. So I think that would be

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: a good option, a good start.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I think I've worked in other areas where you make a massive change, in this case, going from a sign to a purple paint. You make that massive switch, and it can be problematic. And how do you how's that enforced? But if you make smaller changes and increments, and this I see as a compromise, going to a multiyear sign like the way to get that direction. So I appreciate that if I've interpreted correctly.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: If you'd like an answer, certainly like seven twenty three. I like the way that that's written. I like the way that it allows more than one year. And I like the way that it allows people to post when they like. Yes. Full disclosure, it's a warden for twenty plus years, and some wardens interpreted it just that way. Some town clerks interpreted it just that way. Some attorneys did. But when they did not, that that queued the the big issues. And so having clarity around it is good.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. Representative Rutland.

[Rep. Chris Pritchard (Member)]: Yeah. I'm just reading this, Bill. And the other thing I like in it because it was a question I was gonna ask is it says every five years or after a change in land ownership. So I would assume what that means is if the property sold, the property transfer is done, That posting is null and void until the new owner does it and reregister And

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: that was the real estate agent coming out.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Windsor, one of the things that bothers me about paint, I really don't care which color. We're talking about purple. Other states use a one inch wide, eight inch long paint strip. But that doesn't contain the owner's name, address, contact numbers. So if a person goes and sees a purple strip, there's no cell phone coverage in most of my woods and the surrounding woods near me. So QR code's not gonna work if you put a QR code PIN on it or whatever. I'd find painting really not acceptable. But what I would like to see, and I haven't found it in any bill other than notification of a new landowner, is actually at the time prior to transfer full disclosure by the present landlord to the new buyer. They should know. It's just like when you do a transfer of property, and that was in a prior UVA. A new buyer doesn't know that, like, very significant sign. So I'd just like to see disclosure. Representative O'Grady, thank you, mister chair. Commissioner? So we've talked a little bit about a multiyear posting, and we talked about two, and it sounds like for the senate bill of five. So the first part, guess, I would ask is, is there some period that you think is just too long? This thing lasts for? And sort of related to that, is there any benefit in making it posting somewhat difficult so that more land just stayed open? Like, people are like, it's just a pain. I'm not gonna do it. Like, I just your thoughts on that would be interesting.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: Sure. I I would answer first by saying I I'd like to get an agency perspective from my from my boss on this. Yeah. I I do think that there are some pitfalls in going too long on on a posting date. I feel as though and I've said before, closing the door, on on the hunting community by by posting out a great distance is is a detriment to us all. And and it's and it's not it's not foolproof for the landowner either. I I Right. I can see pitfalls there as well. Looking at, what other states deal with with regards to, having maybe a right to hunt and and also no ability to access land is not where I I wanna end up. It ends us up into a reverse posting realm. And getting down that road too far is something I I would like to caution against. It it Especially for hunters, but for for everyone. I I think it's a slippery slope when when we're existing in a in a time of of less than than neighborly news everywhere you look, and I'm not gonna get into pretend to be too worldly. I I think looking here inside Vermont, I I I would look instead to people to be to be looking for ways to be to be more neighborly and and to and to keep that intimate relationship between who's looking to use your land and and who may be using your land and who you don't want to use your land and moving ahead that way. Yeah. I I think I five years, I haven't got to my comfort level with it yet, but I completely see the side of of folks who who think that that is a a good fix. I completely get that. Right? That's great question. Thanks very much.

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: Are there any other further questions for representative Jacob?

[Rep. Kate Logan (Member)]: Commissioner, I just want to thank you for, particularly, I want to thank you for, I didn't realize you had done this, rescinding the guidance when you learned that it was causing a lot of concern. And thank you and your team for trying to address this issue. And I hear that I can totally understand when it's not being applied in the same way, what what that what that does for you and your work. And and so really wanna try and work on this collectively to, at the very least, get to something that we think was working relatively well before. But we also, as as representative Pritchard and others have mentioned, you know, have we've all around this table, including you, heard overwhelmingly that as our as our community ages, more and more people are struggling with the logistics of posting their land. So just really appreciate that we're trying to figure out how to support that for folks who who have various reasons to to really struggle with that. So thank you.

[Jason Batchelder, Commissioner, Vermont Department of Fish and Wildlife]: You're so welcome. Team team is owed the thanks and the secretary as well. A lot of great minds. Me excluded.

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: Thank you. Sure.

[Rep. Jed Lipsky (Lamoille-1)]: I do

[Rep. Larry Labor (Vice Chair)]: adjourn. Thank

[Rep. Michael Hoyt (Member)]: you.