Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Mr. Powell (unidentified attendee)]: It's the credit card company. Emails me when there's a charge. Hi,

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Chris.

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: Good afternoon.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Hi. Thanks for joining us. We'll just quickly go around and introduce ourselves. Welcome back, everybody, the House Energy and Digital Infrastructure. It is Tuesday, March 31, and we are kind of starting to wrap up our initial round of testimony on S202, an act relating to portable solar energy generation device. So I'm representative Kathleen James from Manchester.

[Rep. Richard Bailey]: Richard Bailey, Lamoille two.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth]: Chris Morrow, Windham, Windsor Bennington. Michael Southworth, Caledonia two. Christopher Howland, Rutland four.

[Rep. Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Dara Torre, Washington two.

[Rep. Bram Kleppner]: Bram Kleppner, Tidman 13, Burlington.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Laura Sibilia, Windham Two. Alright. Well, Chris, thanks for joining us. If you could just identify yourself for the record, and then we are anxious to hear your thoughts on S202.

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: Absolutely. So for the record, my name is Christopher Dube, president of the Professional Firefighters of Vermont. We represent the 13 full time IAFF unionized organized fire departments in the state. I've been a retired about a year, year and a half ago from the Hartford Vermont Fire Department with thirty two and a half years experience on that organization as a captain. I'm happy to speak on this. I realize it's it's emerging technology. Some people are eager to hear the pros and the cons. And I'm going to give you the perspective from the International Association of Firefighters. And our biggest concern, no doubt, is the safety of these devices. You know, as you aware, oftentimes technology moves faster than than regulations, rules, or standards. And I think this is a classic example of that. So, I I did send your assistant the my my overview of what I'm going testify on. So, I'll just go through it real quick and if you have questions, if I can't answer it, I guarantee you, I'll I'll get you an answer within a day or so. I apologize for not being there in person. Typically, you might have seen me strolling around the State House. I spend a fair amount of time but I'm actually out in Vegas at a a leadership seminar for the group. So, I'm kind of bouncing around. So, yeah. So, the first thing I'll start with is you originally, these devices were designed as I say, portable devices for outdoor activities and recreation. At some point, somebody figured out, hey, I can plug this into an outlet and kind of, you know, you feed my house and save me some energy. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, but as we all know, sometimes you jump ahead a little bit, you're doing something that looks good on its surface, but it doesn't make it necessarily safe. So like I said, these were designed for, you know, low energy devices like a small appliance, you know, charger radio maybe or whatever when you're out camping or off the grid or, you know, and even in a an extreme circumstance like you would without power for two or three days, you could, you know, hopefully power some of your more vital essential items with that. I mean, at some point, it did morph in, hey, maybe I can plug it into an outlet and and you know, save me some some cost on electricity which wasn't the initial intent of these devices. It's important to understand that there's no plug in of of what we'll call a balcony photovoltaic systems that are currently UL certified. I don't know how much directed erosion or others have gotten into the difference between UL testing or UL compared to UL certified or UL listed. The testing as you know is is just a component of that device has been tested to meet the standard device as a complete setup. If it has the UL certified or the UL listing, it means that device, the whole device as a complete unit met the more stringent safety requirements. A much higher standard, much tougher to obtain, but it is pretty much the gold standard. That's what we want in this industry. It's something that is UL certified, UL listed to know that it is safe for the consumer. Is it safe for us if we have to interface with it and so forth? So, none of these devices currently meet that that standard, that UL certified standard. As you can see in my testimony, there is a link to that. I don't know if you've had if you've seen it before or if not, please, you know, cut and copy to that ul.com, the insights on the safety with these devices. It's a white paper that was developed by United Labs to educate the AHJs, the authorities having jurisdictions, on the unique hazard of these photovoltaic systems, and how they differ from the traditional ones we've on both seen on roof houses, maybe in solar fields. They're completely different devices, and to try to distinguish the difference between them. With that, as I said, this Utah, this is this is emerging technology and so the IFF is trying to gather as much info as we can from The US and Canada on this as it comes out on what we're seeing and and and how we can address our concerns with it. I gave you a link to the Utah bill. That's the one that they kind of referenced it. That stuff is highlighted in there and the thing I liked about that when I read through it is that it it specifically says they're not abandoning these but to be em sold in the state of Utah, it has to have that UL certified and meet any the national electrical electrical code standards, the NEC standards which I think is something that the bot needs to look at at to make it truly safe for the end consumer. So we're not putting products out there that are, you know, causing fires, causing electrical shock hazards to the individuals using them, and so forth. And as I go through our specific concerns, these why we think they're a bad idea at this time until these issues get resolved. It's first that there's zero certification out there for them yet. So this is like I say, this is a classic example of where technology is moving faster than than the safety standards or the laws or so forth put forth. So, once they have that, the framework is there, but nothing's been tested yet. Not saying that, you know, six months, a year from now that they they do develop these criteria and these devices are meeting these standards and yeah, that's cool. They're safe. We know they are. We have no problem with that. Some of the issues we see in Vermont, like with the harsh winters and so forth, they have an effect on these devices, causing them to break down, expose the wires more frequently, causing a shock hazard, which we are, you know, it's a concern to us if we have to go there and deal with these, if they're over smoking and so forth. It's also our concern that the consumer's using these. You know, we're gonna see more issues related to shock hazards where, know, on EMS side responding more incidents of people facing these injuries as a result of of, you know, a device that isn't designed or being used for is not intended to be designed to use for. Like I said, the touch safety, you know, people grabbing prongs, you know, the DFC interface, I believe that when directed erosion, the electrical inspector spoke on that, they've had issues in Vermont of people, you know, plugging these into electrical outlets that aren't properly wired the way they should be, where they're starting to see that, you know, they had an incident where one was melted. So, think as these become more prevalent, we may see more of those which is obviously a concern on the safety side for us. So, we would like to see that the state follow pretty much what Utah did, the mandate that if they're to be sold in Vermont, they meet the most current NEC standard from the International Fire Protection and they're also UL certified. Not just UL tested but they're certified and meet the the standard as a whole. This whole, you know, the panel, the the wiring, the storage device, all these have been tested as a complete component They are truly safe and they're not going to be a fire hazard or an electrical shock hazard risk out there to the consumers. Like I said, we realize this is emerging technology. We're not against it. We just want to make sure that the proper legislation is put in place. So we're not putting a product out there where six months, twelve months down the road, we start to see an increase in fires, you know, possibly an increase in people getting electrical electrical shocks from these And and, you know, God knows what other issues are out there. So I know that was kind of quick in a nutshell, but I'm happy to answer any questions and and go from there.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Great. Questions. Yeah. Rep Southworth?

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth]: From a firefighter standpoint, if one of these is installed on a house, what hazards do they pose to you as far as producing electricity even though it's unplugged from an outlet? Is that possible to cause you issues with firefighting?

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: So it is. Whether it's plugged into an outlet or not, as long as it's it's it's receiving light, sunlight. So whenever there's daylight, these panels, whether they're these portable ones or even the fixed ones on a roof, whenever there's sunlight out there, always generating power. So I know the installation with the residential ones have it, you know, it's a requirement on disconnects and all that. These portable ones may not have that. So as long as there's daylight or any light, I I think, you know, I've I've heard, haven't seen it personally but I've heard research and studies done it even say floodlights at night when you're lighting up an area that that will still produce enough light energy that will generate the DC on these photovoltaic cells. So, our philosophy is whenever there's whenever there's daylight, no matter if it's plugged in or not, those are still hot and still generating power no matter what. So they'd have to be covered and that's another whole issue to get into on how you cover and make sure that it truly is de energized. So I don't know if any answer you can, but yeah, as long as it's daylight, they're always hot.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth]: Thank you.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Mr. Powell?

[Mr. Powell (unidentified attendee)]: When the rooftop systems first came out, in the old CVPS territory, they required a, disconnect, a a low breakable rated disconnect switch. I don't know about the Green Mountain power territory. Are they still required in new rooftop photovoltaics to have a disconnect switch?

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: So I I'm not an expert on the codes, but it's my understanding from taking classes that, yes, they do now mandate that when you put these systems in, that there's a way to disconnect that. It doesn't if there's an issue, it's not back feeding into the system per se. It's also to a degree, it's there for the safety of us. But that's another area that, I mean, I don't want to dive too deep. But that's another area that we kind of fail on a fireside. Especially in a state of training our members that so even though that disconnect is off. If you have to go up onto the roof. Those panels still are energized. You know until you cover them and not with the plastic tops. They recommend you use like, we have these more heavy duty like a, it's a, like a cloth top that's covered with a neoprene membrane. So they're really thick and that way light can't penetrate them. And that's another whole training issue. You know, you use those blue tops, get it at Kmart. Enough light still permeates through that that it still energizes that. So, there is some stuff there to disconnect it but if you're ever up on the roof itself and it was still daylight, those panels are still, you know, from the panel down to where that disconnect is, there's still energy in that that realm of it. So

[Mr. Powell (unidentified attendee)]: I was referring more to the energy flowing back into the distribution system of the house.

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: So most of the newest systems do have disconnects on there. Say that with a high degree of certainty. Yes. I think that the new code address that that, hey, we wanna shut it off here, but that could be, you know, coming down the building where that socket is. So, from that point on, it's all, it's not feeding it. But from that point up to the roof, if you follow me, still has energy in it, which is a concern if we have to operate on the roof. Say we have to go up there for, you know, whatever. It's not 100% de energized. But at least we can isolate going into the house and going back to the grid as isolated.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Chris, whether it's one of these little plug in balcony solars or a rooftop solar array. I assume the fact that they're energized is something that you're training your firefighters on.

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: We do offer training. I can't say with 100% certainty that every department is training our members on that. We do try to offer it, but that is certainly an area that we've probably fallen a little short in. But again, I think it's one of those, especially with these portable ones that technology is moving quicker than we can catch up with it. Like I said, initially, these were designed for, you know, people out camping, you know, you put this up so you could run a little cooler, say, to keep something chilled, your food or whatever, to, hey, I can plug it into my house and, you know, maybe power my television or whatever and save a little bit of money on that side and that's, again, not what they're intended for. I'm not saying it can't be used for that but we're just saying, let's test it to make sure that this is safe and that we're doing it correctly.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Right. Yeah, I think I I'm looking over your testimony, which I appreciate and it seems, I guess how I'm approaching this bill is the general thought that as you point out right now, uncertified, you know, totally unregulated devices are available on Amazon, and any Vermonter could hop online and buy one of these and plug it in. And I'm I'm feeling the need to have proactive legislation that makes it clear that if you buy one of these in Vermont, it does have to be UL certified, and this is how you do it safely. And if you don't, you're breaking state law.

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: That's 100% correct. That's our stance on it that, you know, we can't and I get it. It's hard, you know, you can't dictate what people buy and consumers because they can go across the border. But if it's going be in the state, we support these, but we want them to make sure that they're safe. And to meet that, we want them to be UL certified or UL listed, not UL tested. Way we know the whole device safe and also that it meets, you know, if you're going use an ACT capacity, that it meets the most current NFPA national electrical standard that you have that special outlet that the electrical guy spoke about and it's a separate circuit designed to back feed. So it is truly safe, not just for us operating as firefighters and so forth, but also for you as the consumers that you're not going to burn your house down. You have a small, small fire that starts at six in the evening, and you don't know about it till 09:00 when you're in bed. That's to me, that's it's kinda scary and kind of not what what we're there to fall. We wanna make sure that it's safe for all people in Vermont.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: We've been taking a lot of testimony, and we have, at this point, a bunch of, I think, really good suggestions about, know, bits and pieces we need to add to the bill to make sure that, you know, it is following all these recommendations. And it seems to me that it might be important to make sure that once we do a markup and add all these things that we get it out to folks who testified to make sure we haven't missed anything. Yeah. Yeah. We'll make sure you have a chance to to see the bill.

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: And I and I appreciate that. And and the one thing I'll add on that, like I said, it's and I don't know if you've invited them in yet. So like I put a little blurb in there about you know he's when I think if he's come out and they're not certified that you're going see an increase in potentially building fires. And I'd be curious to see what the insurance industry how they weigh in on this, you know. I mean, because these aren't like I said, they're not at this point really designed or intended for what they want. And and you're absolutely right. The market could be flooded with with cheaper impostor products from from other countries that don't have the standards we do and the next you know you're starting to see a rash of of of incidents involving these devices that because we didn't address it properly on the front side and that's why I say I mean to be curious to hear what the insurance companies have for concerns with these also so.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Great. Sounds good.

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: Alright. I appreciate it, and thank you for your time.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Thank you so much for your time. Appreciate it. Thank you.

[Christopher Dube, President, Professional Firefighters of Vermont]: Thank you. Have a good day now.

[Mr. Powell (unidentified attendee)]: So this is about things. When the portable gas grills first came out, they were you could get a 14 ounce can of propane and put in and and the apartment complexes within the condos, They chase you out of chase you out property while you're bringing it into your rented condo. You know? And I go on vacation. They they wouldn't allow a propane Oh, right. On the balcony of the condo. And that's like they to go down and use their gas grill at some other place. The charcoal was better. No. I don't well long as you got a concrete deck, you don't have to worry. About charcoal on a wood deck versus the skates.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Alright. Well, it

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth]: does bring up an interesting point, though, about the insurance industry, getting their point of view.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. I just found the Vermont Insurance Agents Association. I'm looking to see if I recognize anybody as my

[Mr. Powell (unidentified attendee)]: Would it be a in the Underwriters Association? There's a lobbyist. Yeah. She's a Lobbyist is.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth]: For Canada. Alex, is our next guest in the waiting room?

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: No. We're done. No. We're done. So we've got on 02/2002, we've got markup scheduled on Thursday. And I definitely am gonna need to go back through all of our testimony and try to pull together try to make a more succinct list of all the recommendations we've heard on the bill. And if other folks could do that too, that would be helpful. So we've got markup Thursday at nine, and our task clear should be to try to read back over all this testimony and create, like, a succinct list of all the suggestions we've had about, you know, things to add to the bill around the kind of safety and consumer protection. And then we're hearing from on Friday, and I think they're gonna bring the I think they're gonna bring the unit in, which I'm kind of excited to see one. And we'll see if we can get the insurance agents in here. And then so I guess by the end of the week, we should we should be able to know where we're at with S 202. And then the the whole rest of the week is devoted mostly to C PACE and then to learn a little bit about the energy navigator's bill that came over from the sun. Right. I think we can go up live. I'm sure.