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[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Hi, Matt. We're live. All right. Welcome everybody to House Energy and Digital Infrastructure. It is Wednesday, March 25, we are going to walk through S two thirteen which is a bill that has come to us from the Senate that we are as of yet unfamiliar with. I'm Rep Kathleen James from Manchester.
[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Scott Campbell, Vic Grosberry. Chris Morrow, Windham Windsor, I think. Michael Southworth, Caledonia two. Christopher Howland, Rutland four.
[Rep. Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Dara Torre, Washington two.
[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: Bram Kleppner, Chittenden 13, Burlington.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Alright. And in the room. I'm Audrey Lida, interning with representative Burke. Great. And I'm Katie Erby, interning with senator Watson. Super. Alright. For the record.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: This is Michael Grady with legislative council. Thanks for accommodating me and letting me participate remotely. Would you like me to put the bill on the screen?
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: If you don't mind, that'd be great. Okay.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Alex, could you give me share?
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: And thanks a lot, Mike. This is a new one for us. We didn't have a companion bill or anything like that.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I'll give you some context since the reporter hasn't been here.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Thank you.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Since your committee yet. Okay. So this is a bill entitled an act relating to the use of advanced metering infrastructure devices. Now advanced metering infrastructure devices is the proper term, technical term, for the more commonly used smart meter. And senator Harvey Hardee was, received a call from a constituent who was concerned that her water system, public water system, was going to install a smart meter or had already installed a smart meter. And senator Hardy's constituent didn't want that and wanted the option to have it removed or to refuse to have it in the first place. And in looking into this, I talked to Maria Royal, who staffs utility issues, as you know, and there is already a provision and law for electric companies to allow customers to not have smart meters. So this bill generally amends the public water system chapter to require public water systems that are using smart meters to give their customers an option not to have them. Or an option to have those that are already installed removed. How this is different from the electric company smart meter provision is as introduced this bill allows the public water system to recoup their cost in a charge to the customer. The existing law for electric companies does not do that. As you may imagine, when the electric companies found out that the public water systems were allowed to charge, they went to Senate Natural and asked for their, that provision of law that relates to them to be amended to allow them to charge for their costs. And that is what this bill does. In addition, there's a provision that provides for cyber security guidance for public water systems. Smart meters are digital, Internet, Wi Fi based, and there are concerns about their security. My guess Sorry.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Could you I I just lost the thread for one key minute. Could you tell me again about the charging and recouping costs?
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Sure. So when this was introduced, the public water systems asked for the ability to recoup their costs when they are replacing a smart meter or putting in an alternative to a smart meter.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So they go in I think that's where I'm missing. So the utility is out there putting in smart meters to upgrade their system and their ability to so it's the utility that's initiating this and installing the smart meters. And so they're out there doing it, upgrading their infrastructure, whatever you wanna say. And if the customer says, actually, I don't want that. I want you to replace it with an analog meter, whatever they're called, then they're allowed to do that, but they have to cover the cost of the utility not putting in the smart meter or whatever. Am I getting that right?
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That that that is absolutely correct. And that is what the electric companies also requested for their smart meters because the electric companies are already under a similar provision that says when a customer requests a replacement or alternative, they have to provide it. But the current statute says that they have to do it at no cost. Well, they came in to send a natural and requested that they be able to recoup their costs just like the public water systems could recoup their cost in the bill as introduced. And that that was provided in s two thirteen has passed the Senate.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So so that's generally what it does, and I'll now step through the more specific provisions. This is amending 10 VSA chapter 56, which is the public water supply chapter. Public water supply rules apply to public water systems. On page two, you'll see what a public water system is. Any system or combination that provides drinking water through pipes or other constructed conveyances, and it has at least 15 service connections or serves an average of at least 25 individuals for at least sixty days a year. So it's not just your town that is a public water system. It can be a school. It can be an office building, university, etcetera. It is also on page two line nine through 11. A public water system also means a drinking system that bottles drinking water for public distribution. And that's all because they have to meet certain safety standards set at the federal level under what's called the Safe Drinking Water Act. But then you will get to the specific provisions related to this bill, the definition of an advanced metering infrastructure device. Again, the technically correct term for smart meter, a meter or related communications equipment that is part of an advanced metering infrastructure system and enables measurement of utility usage and two way communication between the meter and utility and includes both wired and wireless devices. That advanced metering infrastructure is any integrated system of meters, including communications and data map systems that measure, record, and transmit utility usage data at regular intervals and enables two way communications between the utility and the customer. So the device is what is on the customer's dwelling and the infrastructure is the entire utility's means of communication between all of those devices. So then you come to the authority of the Agency of Natural Resources. This is where there is the cybersecurity measure. Upon the request of the secretary of natural resources, the cybersecurity advisory council shall develop nonbinding guidance for public water systems regarding generally accepted cybersecurity practices, including information relevant to metering systems and customer data. On its own motion, the council may at any time issue guidance for public water systems, And the council may issue their guidance as part of its annual report or in any other outreach method utilized by the council specific to public water systems or other critical infrastructure.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Hey, Mike.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Yep.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Sorry. Is this can you scroll back up just a couple lines? Is this amending the is this session law or is it amending the the section of statute that establishes the cybersecurity council?
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: No. This is amending the authority of secretary of ANR under the public water supply law. What it does, it it allows the secretary of natural resources to request from the cybersecurity advisory council this guidance. They had, Senate and Natural had ADS in. They had the secretary in. They went over this language with her. She is okay with this language. And and she basically pushed it towards guidance and pushed it towards this ability to have ongoing guidance because, A, she said, putting in a rule or requirement, permit requirement, it's too it's too permitted. And and these issues change and transform so quickly that you need to have the ability to be flexible. But the committee wanted the Secretary of Bay in order to have the authority to request from the council guidance when the secretary wanted it. And that's why it's here instead of, say, under the ADS authorities because it's the secretary of natural resources authority to request this guidance.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. Alright.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Moving on, you move then into section three ten VSA sixteen seventy five. These are the permit requirements, permit conditions for public water systems. Now the agency of Natural Resources may testify that they don't really like it in this section, and I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can come up with an alternative if if you're persuaded by their argument. It probably could just be a standalone section for advanced metering infrastructure. But right now, as passed the Senate, it's in A and R's permit condition and permit authority. And you'll see there's a new subsection that's added related to advanced metering infrastructure devices and the customer's rights. So if a public water system requires a user of the system to install a meter to measure usage, The public water system may install advanced metering infrastructure provided that the public water system provides written notice to the user indicating that the device will use radio or other wireless means for two way communication between the device and public water system and informing the users the user of their rights under subdivisions two and three. Now two allows the user to choose not to have that advanced metering device installed provided that the public water system may charge the user for the cost of the alternative device and any additional service charge required for the system to operate the alternative device. And then three is if the device has already been previously installed, it allows that user to require move removal of that previously installed device for any reason and at an agreed upon time without incurring any charge for such removal. So if it's already in, you have the ability to remove it free of charge. But if they're coming and saying, we are going to install it, you say, no. I don't want it, then you have to pay for the alternative.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So that means if you buy a house and there's a smart water meter that the previous owner installed. The water utility has to pay.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's what this language would would be interpreted to mean that it's it's been previously installed. Then, you know, a public water system may argue that it's previously installed before the effective date of this act, which is a it's a viable argument. I mean, you might wanna be clear about that.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. Alright.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: And then section four is amending the smart meter requirements for electric companies against changing the term smart meters to advanced metering infrastructure devices, having the same definitions of advanced metering infrastructure device and advanced metering infrastructure that we just walked through, and I won't go through that again. And then you will see the existing customer rights for customers of electric companies. It allows the electric company to install that advanced metering infrastructure provided that it provides written notice to the customer indicating it will be using that two way communication and informing them that they have the ability to request an alternative and an additional service charge, and then similarly allows the customer require removal for any reason without incurring any charge. So, again, it's the same concept, same structure. The electric company that's going to install one has to inform the user. That user has the ability to ask for an alternative, but has to but has to pay for it. But if it's previously installed, then they don't have to pay for it. And then on page seven and going on to page eight, there were these previous reports that were required from the Commissioner of Public Service and the Commissioner of Health. They have been submitted. They are antiquated. They're over ten years old. And generally, we strike that type of language from statute when it is that old and no longer relevant. And then Section five is the effective date. The act takes effect on passage. As I just stated, you might want to include an implementation section related to when something was previously installed, if it was previously installed before the effective date of this act, or if you would allow for the scenario you the chair just described where someone buys a house and the previous owner had had the smart meter maybe ten years from now, could that be replaced at no cost?
[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Actually, what what was there any discussion about how much it costs to come and remove a meter or and replace it or how much are you
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: there there was but I wasn't there for all of the utility discussions so I I can't I can't I wouldn't be confident in telling you what that is because they they heard from many of the utilities as I believe you already have scheduled. So you'll be able to get a good context for the cost. One of the one of the late witnesses was Vermont Gas' representative. They want similar authority. But but Senate Natural said it was a little too late in the game for them and that the should seek that from you.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: K.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So I will unshare.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. So just thinking about oh, sorry. Scott has a question.
[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: No. It's better suited for the okay. Okay. Thank you.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So okay. We have a list of witnesses that the senate heard from. Sounds like we should add Vermont gas. I'm trying to make sure, trying to figure out we, make sure we line up our testimony.
[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: So, haven't
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: heard from Ruth yet.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Okay.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So Ruth, all right. So we need to hear from Senator Hardy and then all the Senate people who testified. And then it sounds like you said Vermont Gas kind of came in late. Yep. So if we hear from Senator Hardy, because she has another bill that's made its way. You didn't work on C PACE, did you? That's an Ellen thing.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: That's an Ellen thing. Yeah.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. So we'll hear from senator Hardy. We'll hear from everyone the senate heard from. We walked through the bill. We're gonna add Vermont Gas. Would I be missing anybody at
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: that point? I'm looking at your agenda right now. You have Brian Redmond from A and R. You have Porter from DPS. You have Denise Riley Hughes from ADS. You have the rural water districts. You have Lewis Porter from one of the smaller electric companies. I think I think you have a pretty good list there.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay.
[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: Frank, do you know anything about, why they they made sections, whatever that was, section, to the authority of ANR, why it was on request to the secretary of ANR instead of just telling, the cybersecurity council to develop guidance.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: So that that's that's partly because of the the the kinda transitory nature of this issue. It's it's instead of there being just kind of stable basis guidance, they wanted the secretary when there was an issue to be able to ask for that guidance when it was timely. And that's that's there, and and and ABS supported that.
[Unidentified Committee Member(s)]: K.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: K. I asked about the cybersecurity council because it's that time of year when we start thinking about decorating our Christmas trees. And we had we had a there is a bill to add some we had a bill on our wall to add a member to the cybersecurity council, but it sounds like that would be not germane. I don't wanna let's just forget I said that.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: I I am not the one that opines on that. That's the end as the expert.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. And let's not. Why did I even say that out loud? All right. Thanks so much, Mike. I think does anybody have any more questions for alleged counsel? All right. Thank you. Thank you for joining us.
[Michael Grady (Office of Legislative Counsel)]: Thank you. Thank you for accommodating me.
[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yes. You bet. Thanks, Mike. Bye. Bye. Mike's meeting. Oh, we can go off live.