Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: He's bustling bustling about on various Oops. We're live. We're live. Welcome everybody to House Energy and Digital Infrastructure. It's Friday, March 20.

[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: So Twentieth.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Wow. Friday, March 20?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: You're the first

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: We are here to hear from Green Mountain Power on s two zero two, our plug in solar bill. I'm rep Kathleen James from Manchester.

[Rep. Christopher Morrow (Member)]: Chris Morrow, Windsor, Windsor, Bennington. Sorry. My name was

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Oh. Good call yesterday. But

[Unidentified Committee Member]: With that one. Yep. Yep. There we go.

[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: Thank you. Michael Southworth, Caledonia too. Christopher Howland, Rutland Ford.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Garrett Ford. Washington.

[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: Graham's Chittenden, 13 Burlington. Scott Campbell, they tore again.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Alright. And here, joining us in the room.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: No. I'm so keen when you're not.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Great. I'm Jenny Gleason, intern for grandfather. Super. So we have twenty minutes for now, and we can certainly have you back for the record.

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: Candice Morgan, Green Mountain Power. Alright. So I'm here today to talk about s two zero two, which is related to portable solar. And I know you've had a week full of really good and helpful testimony, so I'll call back to some of that as it makes sense and happy to also come back at any point in time as you all work through the bill. If you have any revisions, other things, we're happy to continue to weigh in and follow this. So overall, we are supportive of the bill as passed the senate. There's a couple of key reasons for us that we feel that way. Number one, similar to what you've heard from the department, from other utilities, and from some of your witnesses yesterday, I think it is really important to have the UL listing requirement in there to make sure that these devices are safe and operating under, the requirements that are required from that and keep them safe for everyone. Another part that the Senate added, we had asked for and discussed in the committee was related to existing net metering customers. You'll note a provision in the bill that wasn't in the bill is introduced but was included in the Senate version clarifying that if a customer has an existing net metering system, they cannot also have a portable solar device. There's a couple reasons that we felt like that was helpful. And the biggest one was really related to customer clarity and understanding of what their generation is at their house and what it's needing for their bill. So, as I think you heard about in the overview, if a customer chooses to have one of these devices and plugs into their house and it's generating, it'll essentially just show up on their bill like reduced consumption. Right? There's not gonna be a line item or anything that shows what it was generating. It'll just show up like reduced consumption. And so when you have an existing net metering system, I think it can just any also were to have one of these devices, it would create further confusion in terms of what is performing and what's being calculated in that way and what our system is seeing. And so, just felt like for simplicity's sake to clarify that this is not an addition to a net metering system. So, we were appreciative of this and its ad in that space. On that same subject, the other reason why we are supportive of the bill is that it's not creating a new incentive structure or rate for payment of the generation from these devices either. So, we're supportive of that versus creating something that would be potentially paid for by other customers. So, keeping it just as a reduction of real time load, I think is the best way to manage that from a cost perspective. And on that subject too, agree with the department's clarifying language around changing excess generation to generation exported to the grid, which I believe is on page two of the bill in terms of what that compensation looks like. Yeah, it's the bottom of page two under sub d. It's where it says, affordable solar energy generation device shall not be eligible for net metering. Excess generation set back into the grid by one of these devices shall not be compensated. And just clarifying that to say generation export into the grid. We agree with that clarification. Another ad that was discussed and then implemented in the Senate Pass version related to having a requirement that a home that is using one of these systems have a smart meter. The vast majority of our customers do have AMI smart meters, but there's anywhere between seven to 10,000 depending on the customers that have opted out of having a smart meter for whatever reason. And depending on which of those devices they have, introducing something like this would actually potentially create a situation where the meter shows that they're consuming more when they're producing, which is obviously counter to what this technology is meant to do. And that's just because of the nature of that technology, the smart meter or I'm sorry, the metering technology. So for ease of customer clarification and also having it work the way they intend, the best way to manage that is for folks to have a smart meter on their house so that language is also added into the space.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Ask a question on So what happens if somebody is using a dumb meter, an old an old meter? Yeah. You said you said it might it might record the generation of its usage.

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: That's correct. It depends on which type of meter they have on their home. Different types of dumb or not smart meters might have a different outcome there and so that's why we try to capture it to just say that as long as they have a smart meter, they should be good in that space. But there are some of those older technologies that are still out there. Not a ton, but just What's

[Unidentified Committee Member]: a what's a generic term? Analog meters or something or Yeah. Are there other up to date analog meters that would not have that problem that people could afford?

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: There are, but we're I don't have the details on, like, the specific names or how we're Yeah. What what we're deploying still. Right? So I think a lot of the ones that I'm highlighting, they're not ones that we would necessarily be installing now, but they might be out there.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. I guess that's what I'm asking. A company doesn't want a smart meter because of, I don't know, radio frequency. Yeah. Could they get a could they get a an older style analog meter that would still work with

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: I mean, I mean, bill is drafted right now. I know. The answer is no. Right. They would have to have a smart meter for this.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Since you seem to know about this, I just

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: want to Just not to be dangerous. Yeah. Technology. Yes. Thanks.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Bram Kleppner?

[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: Do you have any sense of on rental units, you know, do they skew more dumb meter or more smart meter, or is it the same kind of 10%?

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: My best guess, a lot of our commercial or non single family home are often smart meters in terms of our territory I believe, and they're often also, not all of them, but some of them are more master metered. So, it's just the owner of the building that is receiving that. Not, like I said, not for all circumstances, but for some of the larger ones where electricity is included in the price of rent and other things as well. So, there might not be individual customer meters per unit. It really kind of depends on the nature of the building, but a lot of those at this point have deployed sort of meters.

[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: Thank you.

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: Another important point that we had also discussed in the Senate, and I think you heard from Mr. Court, the department too, that didn't really get as much time in there was related to the consumer protection angle of these devices. Certainly, they are marketed and discussed as a way for customers to save money on their electricity bills. I think it's an important thing to consider who's going to be reviewing how they are marketed and what their and if the customer purchases one and feels like it's not meeting that claim, who and where are they gonna go to call and have a complaint or discussion? I don't think it makes sense for that to be necessarily the Department of Public Service and their folks. It feels more like an attorney general consumer protection conversation. And so that was not that feels also like an important point for the committee to consider how that would show up and what role their office would have in some of that.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: We're gonna hear from the AG. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah. Because one thing I'm curious about is and this is not your wheelhouse, but whether we need to do or say anything or whether this just doesn't already fall under whatever the AG does in terms of consumer complaints and protections anyway. So we've invited them. I think, Alex, we'll we'll go over next week's agenda later in the day. We definitely wanna hear from the AG

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: on this. Yeah. I thought you might. And I I heard heard that earlier this week in one of your discussions as well, and I think that that's an important conversation just to, yeah, understand how it works. Just to prep it for any for anything exactly, and then if there's anything that's additional that would be needed here or not based on their review of that. Uh-huh. If that makes sense.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: But I do agree with you, this doesn't feel like the department, Danny, because we're talking about

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: the product. Exactly. And I think even further, like, addition to that, as I mentioned, you know, in terms of what it's, how it shows up for a customer that has this, it's not something that they can sort of look back and track performance just by the nature of how it would show up on their bill. So, you might see a reduction in your consumption and load, which could be attributed to this performing on a sunny day and doing what it's supposed to do. Or it could be that you were on vacation for a little bit and weren't using as much in any one month, or you have purchased additional efficient appliances or other changes that might be made, and so I think it might be hard, it would certainly be impossible, candidly, for our, if you were to call our call center and ask us how much Why is my bill lying down? Exactly. We would not be able to attribute it specifically to what this device is doing or not doing. Right. Yep. Yep. So, I think it's an important thing as well because obviously we respond to questions that get raised by our customers at the department through CAPI and provide information and help respond to any of that, but this one would be a tough one for us to have any information that would, you know, be directly related to that device. Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yes? I have a question about low income families who are eligible for electrical upgrades Yep. Currently. Is that something that you guys incentivize or is it

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: a different program? So, under the ARPA funding, there was a program for electric panel upgrades, because the legislature had appropriated, I can't remember the total amount of money. It was a decent amount. Yeah, for sure. And it was appropriated to the department and then to Efficiency Vermont. And we did help give those dollars out to customers that were eligible. I'm

[Unidentified Committee Member]: happy to

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: follow-up on the total number of that were awarded and done through that grant. One thing that we actually focused on in the GMP territory was on helping to support some manufactured home communities that were in dire need of some customer facing electric upgrades for them to have EV chargers or heat pumps or other types of devices. And so, that was one of our targeted areas that we focused on in that space. And then certainly also individual residential customers as well. So, I think that program has expended all of the dollars to date. But was a it was a good focus area for a little while. Yeah, because

[Unidentified Committee Member]: it seems like it could be helpful for this compliance. Yeah. Because we're learning that for safety reasons. Dedicated sort of things like that. Right. It seems like that could be effective. Yeah.

[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: Brooklyn any of those ARPA funds when you did electrical upgrades and panel upgrades, did any of them go to upgrading meters?

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: Well, I think there's a the answer, would have to double check on that just in terms of where the ownership of, like, the line is around meter sockets and other things, is a little outside of my wheelhouse, but I'm happy to follow-up on some of those specific things. I think if it was appropriate for safety reasons, the answer is probably yes, but I'm happy to separate.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: You know me too. Alright.

[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: The leaders that are out are the ones that are out there.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. It's interesting. No problem.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Oh, sorry.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: These are though Green Mountain Power is dependent on underwriter laboratory three thousand seven hundred in addressing the issue of the energized plug. I I have concerns about approving something that's not there. It isn't invented yet. And I wish I could invent it because whatever. But but that basically GMP's position is that the if as you disconnect it, if there's power in the outlet, as you disconnect it, that plug may remain have a potential for up to two seconds, their literature says, which is a long

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: Yeah. Long enough time. So, in addition to the the UL, certification, we also obviously have our own safety requirements that our workers are deploying whenever we're working on our system, especially and specifically in emergencies, but in general, in terms of what our workers and that's really what our focus is on something like this, unless on the home side, right? But it certainly also obviously want our customers to be safe in that situation. But as we look about I think about our own line workers who are doing work on our system, as any part of that work we are testing and grounding as part of their safety rules before we start working on lines. So if the line were to test as energized during that process, my understanding is that they would then work to find the source and isolate it, which is what our practice is for dealing with both existing solar that's out there on roofs, generators, other things that could push back into that space. And then once the line is appropriately grounded, any of that generation that's out there would be, shorted out, which would protect our workers in that space. But in terms of the home side and that work, you know, we would refer, to some of the other like ians. I I know you had heard from yesterday, mister Lamoille, fire safety, others that are more focused on the consumer customer side of of these devices.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: I'm not sure how you're doing with your points you wanted to get to.

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: I think those are the main ones that I had

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: that Five we minutes. Notification,

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: liability. Yep. So I know in the Senate initial version and at different points as folks are working through this, there had been a utility notification requirement, which we were supportive of taking out, mostly because it's a consumer appliance, right? And so it's similar to we're not knowing necessarily when folks are installing more efficient refrigerator or additional appliances in their house, we didn't necessarily feel like we needed to also have a record of these devices, right? And so, we're comfortable taking that part of the bill out.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: My thinking had been originally, because it it was in the house bill too Yes. It might turn out to be important well, that you might wanna know where they are for more like, you know, worker. Right? Like, oh, we've we've got one here. Yeah. And also just track their uptake, I guess, in the coming years. But I'm I'm now shifting away from that. I I think the I think the appliance thing is kinda convincing to me, and then some other folks pointed out it might have been a rep up or something. These are, like, portable. Sure. So, I mean, I realized they have to be stabbed into the ground, but, you know, in general, if I buy one and I move, I'm gonna approve it to take it with me. Yep. Yep. And then also somebody else pointed out, like, compliance could be really low, and so the data could the most compelling thing I heard was that folks are probably may not do it or probably aren't gonna do it or whatever, and so the data's gonna be skewed anyway. So I've moved off of that.

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: Okay. I don't

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: know how other people feel. But then the the was it WEC? Somebody was interested in liability language. I'd be curious to get your take on it.

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: Yeah. We've talked a little bit to our utility counterparts at at in Vermont. I think it was Vermont Electric Co op that might have raised because that I know that there was language in other bills that have passed in other jurisdictions. I think specifically Utah had a clause related to utility liability. So we're we're still chatting with them and happy to review any additional language. You know, typically our liability or utilities liability stops at the meter, that's just under general practice in terms of how the system operates and current rules out there. Obviously, these are a little, you know, different in terms of what they're doing at a home level or at an at an outlet level. So happy to keep talking about if there feels like we need to be very clear where that line of liability is on something like this. But that's typically how it works under current practice already.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. I mean, if it's sufficiently clear Mhmm. That your that utility liability stops at the meter, you know, if everybody agrees that that's clear Mhmm. Then I wouldn't wanna introduce language that actually muddies the waters or raises other prospects. But I Yeah. Really you know, if the utilities could if there's consensus on that or you guys get to consensus on that, I guess just keep us posted.

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: Absolutely. And that's what I you know, that's what we're committed to doing is still talking and certainly always happy to hear, legal perspectives that feel like we gotta be really clear, and, we will I appreciate your invitation to keep you posted as we, just Okay. Work to understand.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Because we're we'll continue to work on this next week. Okay. Next week is another weird week with committee time and Yeah. On floor and caucuses at the hole and assemblies and all that, but we're taking another round of testimony on this next week. And and then I think by the end of next week, we we might have taken all of our foundational testimony. And if if we're there, we'll try to mark up

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: the bill. Great. That sounds great. We can commit to sharing. Sometime next week.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Final thoughts next week. Okay. Absolutely. Great. Thank you so much for changing your schedule to join us at nine and we're off to the floor. We can go off live. We're back at 01:00 to take a straw poll on appropriations amendments to h seven eighteen residential energy codes and h seven forty greenhouse gas, and then we're done for the

[Candice Morgan (Green Mountain Power)]: day.

[Rep. Bram Kleppner (Member)]: Back here. One

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: at