Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: We're live.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Good everyone. This is House Energy Digital Infrastructure Committee. It is Wednesday, 03/18/2026. I am Scott Campbell, representative of St. John's Clery, vice chair. The chair is in a meeting and will be late. We are talking this morning about S202, the portable solar bill that's come over to the West Virginia Senate. We're going hear this morning from J. G. I. And the Public Utility Commission. So go around the room and introduce ourselves first.

[Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: Richard Bailey, Lamoille, Smarrow, Windham, Windsor, Bennington. Michael Southworth, Caledonia, two. Christopher Howland, Rutland Ford.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Dara Torre, Washington, two.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Great, and in the room?

[Katie Erby]: I'm Katie Erby. I'm in person

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: for Senator Watson. Gotcha. All right. Thank you, Aaron. Thank you for joining us.

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: Thank you. Again, just for the record, my name is Jake Meron. I'm an attorney at the Vermont Public Utility Commission. The commission doesn't have any, significant concerns, with this with this bill as it's been drafted. I do want to point out one potential area of ambiguity, in section two of the bill, which amends section two fifty six of title 30. Is subsection A says a customer may install one or more portable solar electric generation devices that don't have a maximum combined capacity of not more than 1,200 watts. I just wanted to point out that under Vermont law, plant capacity, the term capacity is defined as the, well, it's the nameplate rated maximum output of a facility. And in the case of a solar, right, it means the inverters. So with a solar facility, you have two pieces of equipment that have a capacity. The panels which produce direct current energy or DC energy, and then the inverter, which converts that power to alternating current energy, which can be used in American households or on the American grid. And so, as I read this statute, it means that the maximum capacity, meaning the capacity of the inverters can be not more than 1,200 watts. I I just point this out because in some of the literature I've reviewed recently, particularly UL three seven zero zero, It wasn't clear to me whether the discussion there is about the capacity of the solar panels themselves or of the inverter. So that just might be something to discuss with, some of the more technical witnesses you have, particularly if you're talking with someone from UL or from the utilities. I'm just telling you how the how the commission would read that that statement about capacity and how Vermont law would define it. But it's not a problem. I just wanna make sure there's clarity and agreement amongst all of the participants in this process that that's the intended meaning. Because I know when I when you look at a lot of these systems for sale on the Internet, for example, they're often discussing the the capacity of the panels themselves and not necessarily the inverters. So and and, also, when you install a system that that two capacities of the of those two pieces of equipment don't necessarily match, it's not uncommon to have a slightly larger capacity of panel and a slightly smaller capacity of inverter because the panels don't always produce at their maximum theoretical efficiency if the sun is low or if their shade or anything like that, they're produced at a lower output. So it makes sense to have a smaller inverter often. All of this goes to just making sure that everyone has a sort of clear understanding as to what the limits are on these systems and what the allowable, maximum capacity of a portable solar device is. So subject to that comment, we don't have any other concerns about the bill. I'm happy to answer any questions that you might have.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Well, I think that is a great thing to point out. I really appreciate that. I've, at my own house, been thinking about adding panels. I have some panels on my roof, but I don't have very much south facing roof. And so I ran up against this panel versus inverter capacity thing myself, and I think it's a really important point. So we will definitely ask people who knew more about this. Well, they might be

[Unidentified Committee Member]: in our committee here. So no, no, my personal experience is that you get a DC rating and then an AC rating, and I don't recall how to make the conversion. So if we if we quoted the 1,200 watt AC, so it's all on common common coupling with the house voltage or system, We'll check with the utilities or the members, whatever. Does the PUC have any responsibility for consumer protection or safety in their charge?

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: We have direct oversight of consumer protection for utility customers. So when it comes to a customer's interactions with their utility, the commission is the final say on whether that customer is getting service in accordance with the utility's approved rates and terms and conditions. When it comes to these types of facilities, the sale of, you know, a solar panel or something like that, we do not have the same kind of consumer protection oversight role because we do not have jurisdiction over panel salespeople or manufacturers or things like that because they are not utilities. So it probably would be the attorney general's office who would be responsible for business practices of companies selling these products. I think Justin Culber at the AG's office was the last person I spoke to who had sort of dealings with solar installation companies. Now those were grid time solar installation companies that I don't know if it it is the same organizations or businesses that are selling these portable solar devices, but that might be a a place to to look if you're if you're looking for someone to talk to about consumer protection with respect to the sale of these products.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Well, it's more of the interface between where does the utility stop. So at the 115 volt outlet at the wall, the electricity just inside that plug is power company electricity. It's already come through my meter, so I guess it's my electricity. But that so that interface between the two two two producers, if you had a storm and a company shows up to your shop with a generator run your factory, I mean, I don't know how they wired in or or whatever, but at what point do those two where where do the responsibility make?

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: So I I mean, generally speaking, the the the commission's jurisdiction ends at that meter. You know, once that sale has occurred, whatever's happening inside the customer's building, you know, that could be subject to all sorts of other rules and regulations or or entities that oversee building safety, fire safety, electrical code, all that kind of stuff. We're really there for the the, you know, the provision of utility service that we being the commission.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Thank you.

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: So the way I read this bill is this is is putting these small solar facilities on the customer side and outside the commission's reach. You know, we we don't have jurisdiction over these things now because they won't as under this bill, they won't be section two forty eight facilities. We won't be responsible for their sighting. We won't be responsible for their safe installation. We won't be responsible for their operation. That's all on either the customer or the businesses that are, you know, involved with the sale of that that product.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: I I I have a couple of questions. Has the PUC talked to any of the distribution utilities about their views on this? What sort of investigation have you done on this?

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: Haven't had a, certainly not the commission itself had a had a an investigation or any kind of formal communication about these these facilities. I did have some very sort of hallway conversations with, you know, their representatives, the utilities that you're gonna hear from later today, I think. And, you know, the commission, I think, understood that there is some some questions they have about wanting to make sure that they correctly account for this energy and that they get their bills correct for their customers. It some of the changes that got made in the senate, I think, were helpful in that respect. But I would I would really, you know, encourage you to listen to the utilities that they are responsible for providing service in accordance with the law. We want to make sure that they have a clear understanding of what their obligations are with respect to any utility service that they provide.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: The PC doesn't have any opinion on whether customers who choose to install these things should notify the DU about that.

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: We would support. If the DUs believe that they need to have information about these, then we would support that because they ultimately are required. It's for safety, is my understanding, that they want to know where these things are so that if there is a problem that they are aware that there could potentially be generation on the line or anything like that, I I think that's a reasonable concern that they have. So I would you know, if they if they articulate that concern, then we we would support that.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Okay. Great. Thanks. I

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: was just wondering, smart meters are required in order to have these portable solar units? Looks like he's frozen. Oh, you're just there? Yes.

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: I can't see all the shaking that my legs are doing right now

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: because it's

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: I push all the energy down and then up top. I

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: was just curious if you could tell us if, where we're at with smart meters in the state. Like

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: I you know, again, the utilities have the best information on this, but my understanding is that they're widely adopted, but there are customers who have opted out of of having smart meters.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So so the PUC error is the people who issue the DGs, the, when you get a two forty eight for your rooftop solar, you get a The CPG, yes, certificate of public good. CPG. So those are also under your jurisdiction, but the connection may be after the meter for the and before the main panel. So that that leeway of in between the where the wiring is is is connected.

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: That that is a difference. Yes. So, I mean, there there are different ways to attach a net metering system to a customer's, you know, property and and to the grid, but, generally, they plug in right at the at the main panel. Yeah.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Thank you. Hey.

[Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: Thank you. Do you feel with the information that you have reviewed on these that there is enough notification for consumers that the panels are their responsibility and not the responsibility of their utility, so if they may have an issue that they know not to call the utility or the PUC with a complaint?

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: It's a good question. I don't know if I've thought about notice to the customer itself. I'm just scanning the bill. I mean, I I this is again, I I'm I'm I'll confess that I I probably don't have enough information at this point to give you a good answer because I haven't really read the bill thinking about this, but I don't see it when I scan it, I don't see anything in there about that. But I, you know, I I I don't know there might be better better minds than mine about how much notice a customer needs about this about where the responsibilities lie. I personally, I'm in I I'm so enmeshed in energy thought that, you know, the the jurisdictional lines and things like that are are are always in my head. I don't know what an average consumer is thinking about when they when they're thinking about it, you know, purchasing a portable solar device and how they would view the utility or the PUC's responsibility for those things. I I I just don't know. So it's interesting question. I'm sorry that I don't have a good answer for you.

[Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: No. It would be better suited for, yeah, consumer laws to ask those people correct.

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: Thank

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: you. I think we talked a little bit about yesterday about let's see, at the bottom of page two, subsection e, about a portable solar device in public billing shall be used in a manner that comply with all applicable requirements the most recent Fire and Building Safety Code, adopted by the Division of Fire and Safety, and that suggested, to me anyway, I think we need to have some sort of information available to consumers about egress requirements, not blocking exits, for example, and any cord attachment requirements, use of a of a dedicated circuit if that's if that's required. Those kind of things. And what's represents Southropoda could

[Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: be part of could be part of that as well. Okay.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Any other comments? It's just to just to bring my committee mates up to speed. Mister Morrow has said that, PUC sees no significant significant concerns with the bill, although it did point out an ambiguity about the issue of capacity and whether what what is meant by capacity, whether it's panel capacity or inverter capacity. That seems like an important thing to clarify. It's the kind of thing we should probably talk to the technical people about. Great. Do you have any other questions, mister Morrow? Jake, I think we can let you go early.

[Jake Meron (Attorney, Vermont Public Utility Commission)]: Alright. This is Rebecca Jake. So much nice to see you all. Have a great day.

[Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: You too.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Bye bye. Thanks, Jake.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Thanks, Jake. Hi, everybody. Sorry I was late. Are we gonna take a thanks, Scott. Are we gonna take a little break? We're up somebody's neck left at

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: That's ten. Right. We have somebody that's there at ten, and it's ten minutes to jump. So I guess we should go offline and take a few minute break. See you back at ten. We're up ten, please.