Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Happy

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: weekend. Happy We're live.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Welcome back, It is House Energy and Digital Infrastructure, and it is Wednesday, February 11. And we're gonna be taking some good testimony today from the Vermont Coalition for Disability Rights. We'll just quickly introduce ourselves, and then we're eager to to you. So my name is Kathleen James, I am from the Bennington Ford District.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: I'm Scott Campbell from Saint Johnsbury. Richard Bailey from Lamoille two. Chris Morrow in the Bennington. Michael, Southworth, Caledonia two.

[Christopher Howland (Member)]: Christopher Howland, Rutland four.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Dara Torre, Washington two. Laura Sibilia, my

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: good two.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Alright. And in the room,

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Brenda Siegel, Command Homelessness Vermont. Great. And we're

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: gonna be hearing from you next. Right? Yep. Okay. So for the record.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: I am Kills Osham. I'm a resident of Waterbury, and I have lived in Vermont for about fifteen years, mostly in Chittenden County, so new to Washington County, but really adore it. Awesome.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: So did you all have specific bills or topics you wanted to Yeah. Discuss us Something

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: that I would like to talk about is about how the utility bills, because I know that that's relevant to your work, how they are not serving disability, and how, particularly how, so I am, I'm disabled and I am on the border of poverty and that fifteen day cutoff is very, very strict. The day that you are over by one day, they send out that notice and you have fifteen days from that day of lateness to sorry, it's really frustrating because yeah, it's just really frustrating. So you have fifteen days and if you don't, then you get your electricity cut off and that can compromise the entire systems people have to that grow accustomed to doing. We have to manage money very closely, like sometimes down to the very cent. And so that $15 that fifteen, day cutoff is tremendously hard because sometimes it gets to the fifteen days. And then you're like, okay, well, I'm paying this or I and either I'm paying electricity or I'm paying for heating. And I know that some places have that heating, you know, like heating is the electricity, but sometimes it's not. So trying to decide between two utilities is hard.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Can I ask you a question? I just want to understand how this works. You get behind in your electric bill, how long is it until you get you would get a disconnect notice from the utility?

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: You get so you don't technically get the discount notice until, like, they send it in the mail. But from that day that you are late, you have fifteen days.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: The day of choice.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Yeah. So it used to my understanding, and let me know if I'm wrong, but in the old days, you would have a fifteen day grace window. But because of technology and the way the technology runs now, you don't have that grace period anymore. It's from that day.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: The day let's say your let's say your bill is due today. Yeah. Today's monthly eleventh? Yeah. Eleventh? So let's say you're you you get a bill for last month, and the due date is February 11. And if if you don't if you don't pay that bill by fifteen days, which is February then twenty

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: you're disconnected automatically? And they, you know, as a person who lives in poverty, that is really, really hard and trying to like, because I have an entire system where everything, if everything lines up right away, I can just pay everything when things happen. But because of the way that the calendar operates, that only happens like maybe three times a year. And so it's like trying to manage which bill I pay every time, which I know is very common for, you know, most everybody. But when you have to, like, decide between two things, especially, like, during the winter, it's very, very hard.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Does the utility send you another notice?

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: So they will send

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: about to get disconnected?

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Yeah. So they will send me so what happens what I understand from my side is that, yeah, they immediately when you have when you go into, like, default, so, like, day after

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: When you miss a payment.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Yeah. When when I miss a payment, then they automatically the system will send it out. Then it doesn't say that I, from the day that I got the notice or the day that the notice was sent out, from the day after. After payment was due.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: So you might get the notice a couple of days before Yeah. Your

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: And I'm thinking, and for me, I'm tech savvy, I can kind of, I know I have the app, I know what the system is, but like for our older generation, that's not possible.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yeah, some people might still rely on mail, on actual physical mail. Yeah, absolutely. At least at my house, don't get the mail every day anymore, comes every few days.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Yeah, And so it creates a a huge challenge. Yeah.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Reps of you.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Who's your utility?

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Say again? Who's your electric utility? Green Mountain Power.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: We're we're gonna be hearing from them today. Because a lot of us, we're we're all learning about the process. Yeah. And we were this bill is really

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: our way of being targeted. I don't need to invite myself to things, but I would really like to hear, like, hear what they have to say. Oh, you're welcome

[Christopher Howland (Member)]: to be

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: here to the. Okay. 02:15. Yeah. So I just wanna make sure that

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: I understand because I also have green bell pepper.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Yeah.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: And I've also gotten behind on my phone. Okay. And so I wanna make sure I understand. And and when you said you had the app, that's what it's like.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Oh, I'll speak about power. Yeah.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: So is it from the date that you get a shutoff notice?

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: You have fifteen days? No. I believe I would have to, like, I'd have to look. But I I'm, like, pretty confident that it's from the day after that The bill is Yeah. That you get the It starts the whole, like, process to get it shut off.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Okay. So I I would just say for the committee, if one day after the bill is due, you have fifteen days before you shut off, that sounds like a problem we should probably address. Yeah.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: So, and we do have, Jim, the link So, in and to talk about both bills, actually. Today. So, the disconnect bill and a different bill.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Is that my So ideally, if it hadn't been, like, it's still within that 15 degrees period that they used to have for, like, when everything was analog, pre digital, then they would have would still be able people would still be able to function within the gray area. Even like a ten day or a seven day, you know, something, to really make sure that people have time to navigate.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: I'm curious to know if you've always been able to kind of manage it enough to stave off disconnection or if you've been disconnected. I was curious to know what that experience was like. Like, how were you able to get back up and running?

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Yeah. So I've been able to Juggle it. I've been able to juggle it, but I've known people who, don't and, or who are unable to. And it's really hard because when you get the notice, and again, I'd have to look, but when you get the notice, they say if you do this, then when it turns back on, it'll be turned on within a certain amount of period. And I can't remember what that period is, but to me, that period, especially during the winter, is too long. I think it's like six or eight hours. And for somebody who is vulnerable, maybe in a wheelchair or has like, a greater impairment than I do, that could potentially be life saving or life risk. You know? It's like yeah.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Have they send you anything about the the GMP program to help

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Yeah.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: So they they did, and I am now currently on it. But even, and that's one of the things I wanted to actually focus on, and I got sidetracked, which is fun because it's really important, is that, the bill that is that they've put me on is a 150. And I am still not able to sometimes pay that. And I understand the way that they do it. It's kind of algorithmic. And it's so that in the winter, it's a little bit better. It's a little more manageable. But if it's not manageable, right? Like I recognized even as a person in poverty, I have privilege. And somebody who doesn't have as much privilege as I do and isn't able to afford that. I would like to see, ideally, would like to see, my absolute dream, and I know it's not possible, but I would like to see a program for disabled people that is a more manageable monthly. Because the other thing that happens with Green Mountain Power is every quarter they look at your electricity usage and they say, okay, based on your usage, this is your, for this next term, that's how much you will be paying. But for disabled people, that means that there are, the things that they depend on, medical drips or some of the medical devices that they use being counted towards that. And if they're being counted towards that, then and also they're put on this program, then it becomes that much more difficult. And so, what I would want to see is a flat rate for disabled people based on income. Because I know that people who are on disability still are vastly under compensated for living services. And I know that this wonderful committee can't address that issue, but if you can address the other lifesaving things and make sure that the devices that disabled people use are not counted because the whole it's very upsetting because I've known disabled people who have to have life saving stuff. And that electricity is then put on their bill and then they have to pay that bill. And then sometimes when if So to give you an analogy, if the if you unplugged your refrigerator, all your food would be would be unfrozen or, you know unrefrigerated. Right? And so for disabled people, if we unplug our services, same thing happens. But you but we are required by society to have electricity. And I don't know about the laws in Vermont, but I know that there are states where if you don't have electricity for a certain amount of time, you get penalized. And I know that that's going into a different aspect. Yeah, so I would just like to see an income based program for disabled people and $0 for the most impacted, which are people who are on SSI. Because I've met people who are on SSI and it is institution. It is the cruelest dehumanization that you can ever experience. It is back to slavery, in my opinion. Not to bring slavery into that, but it is at that level. And I think that you all have the power and the decisions to be able to influence that. Using that power responsibly needs to be used.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Really appreciate you being here. Absolutely. I wanted to make sure maybe it's been updated already, but, I had another witness on our I

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: think that maybe he's not coming and Kelsey is. Yeah. Okay.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: So Can you make sure our committee assistant has your name so that our agenda Absolutely. Reflects your presence here for Good prosperity.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Yeah.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: For posterity. Thank you. You bet.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Also, I would like to say that black and brown people, we all know because we live in Vermont, they are the ones that are most harmed by having a disability and they should also be considered in this realm, which is why I was trying to bring slavery into it. And I recognize that that did not go the way that I think.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: We

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: spend a lot of time pontificating on YouTube, so we feel you're we feel you. Did you have a question? Yes.

[Christopher Howland (Member)]: I ask you a couple questions here?

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Yes.

[Christopher Howland (Member)]: So you said that that utility has your electric bill at 150. Were you significantly behind when they proposed you a monthly payment plan and twelve months Yeah, to catch

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: so they gave me a payment plan, it was, and again, I'd have to check, but it was 150 when they proposed that plan. Then also, they put me on the payment plan, the quarterly thing. So then my utility was still about 300.

[Christopher Howland (Member)]: So a typical plan may be that you are going to make up the arrearage over twelve months, and then other bills were gonna be paid when they came due. So you go pay the current month.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: On the same on the same bill that the past payment, okay. Yeah, on the past payment, the reoccurring bill. And then, I am now remembering because I'm flustered. I'm sorry, usually I have these conversations more commonly, but it was 50, it's 50, but I have heard where it has been more than 50. On okay.

[Christopher Howland (Member)]: Well, yeah. I we I kinda look at her facts, not what was heard, but We can we'll have to hear

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: from her. Later, and we can ask them about their policies.

[Christopher Howland (Member)]: Alright. So I mean, was just reviewing this rule 3.3, and I'm just gonna because they're coming up later. And I would just I just read the 12 I read something quickly about the 12 monthly payments, and I didn't get

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: Yeah, sure. And also I want to mention that just because a lot is enacted doesn't mean that it's necessarily always followed. And that's kind of like, you know, something that, you know, like $50 or even if it was $100 in my financial status is incredibly difficult because again, it's down to that 10¢. Often where I am, I usually run about a 100 or $200 over every single month. So an extra $50 is big deal.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: So we really appreciate you being here to share with us your experience. It takes courage. So thank you for sharing that with us. And like I said, we've got testimony later. We can certainly ask the utilities about their policies and

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: get clear on what their policies are. And I'm also open to any future conversations or questions because this is my area of study.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Thank you. Thank you. Hi. Thank

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: For the record, I'm Brenda Siegel, the Executive Director of Bend Homelessness Vermont. I may not look up a lot because I am losing my eyesight, is probably the reason I'm here to talk to you. The windows are a little hard for me. I wanted to actually just This is not all that I have to say, but I wanted to just piggyback on what you were saying. So, I have experienced poverty for most of my adult life, and this, I had gotten out of poverty, and this past fall, my pay was delayed due to federal things, and it was delayed by four months. So I fell behind in literally every part of my existence because I'm just above the poverty line. And I did have my electricity shut off, and it was fairly rapid. I made the person came to shut it off. They said that I had it till 03:00, and they shut it off at two fifty feet. They did call I will say it was Green Mountain Power as well. They did call and apologize profusely. That was actually what they did. I figured out a solution. I was very privileged to figure out to be able to figure out a solution. But my electric bill is well over a $150 a month. And so I just wanted to kind of back up what was being said. I don't know about the fifteen days. That has not been necessarily my experience. But if you get on one of those payment plans, if you miss even one payment or you're a day late on even one payment, then you get kicked off the payment plan. So that becomes no longer an option. And so that's very challenging for people in poverty. And for myself, what I did come here to talk to you about was two things. The clients that we work with and my own experience of losing my eyesight. It's actually a visual processing disorder, but without going deeply into it. I have to have enormous amount of lights in my house, specialty lights that are fortunately offered to me by the Bramadian of the Blind for the Blind, but it doesn't pay my electric bill. And so those lights are a lot of lights are on a lot in my often in my house. I can't if there's not lights in other rooms, then I can't process what's coming in. So I can't have, like, the lights off in other rooms around me and not in the room I'm in. And as many of you probably see me walking around here in sunglasses, sometimes I can't process anything that's coming into my eyes. It's not actually my eyes. It's a little confusing. But the and so so I'm having to learn how to how to be someone who is losing my eyesight in a position that's actually a high functioning position in a world that is not designed for someone who experiencing vision loss. And so I wasn't going to bring that in, but I really do want to just back up some of this, that I think people with disabilities are not written in to our policies and rights around electric bills and other utility bills because in part, because it's not taking into account how much more expensive those things are for people with disabilities because of what they have to run. And for our clients, that includes people on oxygen, people with electric powered wheelchairs, people who have insulin dependent diabetes, is literally life or death if they lose their power. So and if they when we always tell our clients rent first, no matter what. However, when you're telling someone rent first, no matter what, who's on oxygen and their power is going to get shut off, then you're telling them to choose between living outside and plugging in somewhere else or living inside without their life saving ability to breathe.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Rutland, if you had experience, we've been learning a little bit about the disconnections and how they work and the rules that Brett Howland brought up. Have you had experience with the doctor's note?

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: You know what, I have not been offered that. So, of the problems that I've experienced when I've personally experienced getting behind is that I don't think all the options are offered to me. So when I'm I've also had plenty of staff ooze because I can't see my bill or because I think that it says something that it doesn't say because of the visual processing. And so that is that will sometimes cause me to be behind or pay the wrong amount. And there's not a lot I can do about that because I'm just learning how to experience this. And so I have not even been I didn't even know that was an option. And and I should because I work with people who for whom that would be something that isn't that is. So I can't give you a lot of answers about it.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: I was just curious because that's something we've been learning about. I mean, this is for me, a new area of Mhmm. Learning. Yeah. And so we we've been learning about the doctor's note and how it can be used to, you know, basically stave off disconnection and whether that could be sort of extended indefinitely in certain circumstances. So instead of having to

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: go back for it and back for it and back for it. Am I describing this right, Rectory?

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Yeah.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: It's her bill. So, you know, and Rut Morrow too. You could get, you know, more of sort of like an indefinite doctor's note if you have, like, a chronic condition. Mhmm. And but that's that's it's in our bill. That's not currently the

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Right. So I I have not heard a lot about that, but I will be paying more attention to this bill now because I do think that it will make a big difference for that doing this right or writing disability into every bill is a priority of ours at in homelessness Vermont. And so this is some place where I think that there could be a difference made. The other thing that I did really wanna talk about is, I I guess, you have oversight over I just clarified that right before I came in. But oversight over the state website and over the We do. Yes. So it is not accessible. It isn't accessible there's a couple of pieces of this. People experiencing homelessness who live with disabilities absolutely don't have access, so everything that they need to know, whether or not the shelters are open, all those things are on the website, and they're hard for anyone to find. And then they're extremely hard to find if you can't don't have Internet access. And they're even and they also there's no clear I've even requested before. Like, I can't see the documents that you're giving to all the other providers. And can you please just send me the documents? And they just send me the link. And I'm like, no, could you actually please just send me the documents so that I can see them? And they just send me the link. And they were they and I am saying it's specifically it's because I can't see. I'm asking for that that accommodation.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: And quite

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: frankly, it it is not a wonderful experience to to have to repetitively ask for an accommodation. And then to be denied it when it's literally the only way that you can do your job, which in my case, that's what's going on. But then for our clients, we have we did a recent we were in the middle of a big study, a multi year study. And phase two of the study, the report is in draft right now is being reviewed. But I can tell you that nine point five percent of the people that we interviewed did could not read or write, and that they everyone that answered that question was a lifelong Vermonter. And when we make things not clear of how it could how there could be an audio version. And then I in preparation for this testimony, I went on to the web state website, and I if you scroll down, you get there's a part that says what they're supposed to do for disability. I don't know how I found it, but it was there. And I asked my staff to help me make sure I was reading it correctly because it had a bunch of things. Like, there needs to be a video option or an audio option, and none of those things are there for most I was surprised to find this out because none of those things are there. So for people who are deaf, having a way deaf especially deaf blind, and people who are blind, people who are not able to read or write, people who are living with significant medical conditions and can't process all of that on their own, these are all places where we need to be following the I think a policy that may already exist.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: You're talking about vermont.gov? Vermont.gov. Yeah. Feel like that's hard for me, but I Accessibility. Okay. Sorry.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: This is my question as well. Mhmm. Yeah. Legislative website as well?

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Legislative website start for me as well. Yep. It's a little better. Legislative website for me. I'm going to like I know I'm going to committees. I know I'm going to I know which committees I'm going to, but I do often have to ask other people, you know, what is happening in these? Because I can't follow all of them. When I'm in the building, and I'm in appropriations. I have asked the committee assistance before for the on paper spreadsheet of the budget, and I'm told I can't I can't get that because I'm not a legislator. And I say, well, it's because I can't see it on my on the computer. And they say, you basically have to go through Agatha. It that should not be what's happening. It should be that you can just ask the committee assistant. I'm not able to see this, and you should be able to get it. And an accommodation, a reasonable accommodation by definition is has it has to be unreasonable what you're asking for for it to be denied. And and so I think that there is and and this is not what I think is failing is that people don't understand what a disability is, and they don't understand what a reasonable accommodation is. And there is not adequate training. And part of that is that disability is not written into all of our legislation. And the more we talk about it, the more we ensure that it is there and everything, the more that we will have the ability to then have all of you understand what a reasonable accommodation is. Because I can assuredly tell you that while I knew fundamentally this this before I started my work, We work primarily with people living with disabilities. We answer 3,000 calls a year. We have 600 clients who we help on an ongoing basis and over 300 now who we help with every single we don't help all of them every single day, but who we help with renewing their voucher, with filling out their housing applications, service navigation, with everything. And the level of the level that they can be successful when they have the right support is and the amount of times we've been told about these clients that they're refusing services when the reality is that they cannot access the services that are being offered to them. And when we are there to support them through that, that's available. Then we actually are able to break through those barriers. And the same is happening for me. The Vermont Division for the Blind is actually excellent. It's the best service I've ever interacted with in my whole existence. So and I've been interacting with a lot of services both on a professional and personal level. And but it is excellent because they are listening to what I need. So I'm saying, I really can't make a around the state house. And I'm struggling when I can't see. I don't know what to do. When there's a lot of people in the building, I feel like I'm gonna crash into people. They're saying, okay. Let's let's get a mobility expert to help you figure out how to navigate that and learn how to, like, listen for doorways and listen for people in ways that maybe I is not what I'm used to from my life. And but in most services and most of our infrastructure, our technological infrastructure, we're telling people what they need, not listening. And I think that it would help a lot whenever there's any bill in front of the committee to bring people in, both disability experts and people with lived experience, to say how would this impact you and how can we write disability into this bill. Does that make sense?

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Torre? Would you suggest like VCIL, Vermont Center for Independent Living? Who are the, who would

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: be the? The organizations that address disability in our state the most significantly are Vermont Center for Independent Living, Disability Rights Vermont, the DD Coalition, the Developmental Disability Coalition, the Human Rights Commission, and then Homelessness Vermont. We are the organizations that do it. I think that we have this situation where we're creating basically a taxonomy or hierarchy of who gets access to services in our not just services, access to just, you know, to this career that I have that I am very fortunate I already very much knew how to do because I'm able to maneuver my way around. I know a lot of people. I but if I walked into this completely blind and both in my knowledge and in my vision, then I would there's I don't know how I would I I know people do, but it it is I I it is amazing to me that people can figure out a way around because just experiencing it myself has been quite an quite eye opening. That I there's a

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: lot of there's a lot of there's a lot of analogies coming out there around vision.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: I like to make jokes about it, so I've actually told people, Don't bring it up. I'd rather you made it some weird joke. So

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Alright. Yeah.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Well, I was just thinking about, also, we've been talking to the secretary of state's office. Well, I've been talking with them about improving their website around a particular thing around energy codes and compliance and all that and and also the residential contractor registering it. And one of the things that they told me is they're being required to update all of their all of their websites, all of the all the various pages on their websites for accessibility. And that's a process that they're able do. So I guess I wonder whether that's sort of happening generally. I don't what the status is of vermont.gov or or the other.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: I can tell you that the state website, at least DCF's website where I spend most of my time is has not changed much of anything in terms of that. It's way behind. And and accessibility, it shouldn't even, you know, they'll there's a lot of reasons why they don't want to do these things, but it shouldn't even be a question. You can that the site that the website is not accessible is

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Oh, okay.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Mine isn't accessible either, actually, to be clear. It's it it does, It there is a cost to that. Yeah. But it's for a state for a government website, that it doesn't seem like that should be an excuse.

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. I mean, what we what what we hear and and hear about the needs for IT generally in state government are enormous and often decades behind where they should be. And the costs are also enormous. So, that's kinda where we're at. We're trying to figure out how how to how to how to pay for things and and also how to how to get government offices to be successful at implementing IT improvements, which is another challenge. Even if even if we throw money at them, having it be successful is a is another challenge. So it's a huge problem. It is. And and, you know, I think we all recognize it, and we would all love to make it better, and I don't and I don't I mean

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: I think that what I I'm gonna use the same the same advice that I give my clients, which is that when we look at the whole problem, the giant problem of whatever they're experiencing personally or homelessness or infrastructure or any of the things, it becomes overwhelming and we freeze. Right?

[R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Right.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: And what I always say to

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: my clients is let's just do the first thing. Like, let's just make sure that you have a shelter. Let's start there. Yeah. Then we'll talk about whether or not you choices for care is an option. Or then we'll talk about how we're gonna make sure that you have it you can access the services you need. And and I think that there is I sometimes I'm I think you all those of you that know me know that I am a go bigger, go home approach kind of person. However, I still think you have to start somewhere. And and if if we're freezing because we are because of where if we're freezing because we don't know how to handle the whole problem or how far we've gotten behind, especially on disability rights in Vermont, We've gotten very far behind. If they were freezing, then we're not making any progress. So we might as well figure out what can we do first. The first thing we can do is make sure that it says that they're supposed to have the right colors on the website so that people can see. The first thing you do is make sure there's that. The second thing you do is make sure that there's videos. And then the same thing with the electric companies, our electric bills or other utility bills. Same

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: exact thing.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yep. One more and then we go.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Yeah. I'm gonna ask a really basic question demonstrating ignorance. When we talk about disability, we have a lot of DEI policies. Can you help me understand why disability needs are not included in diversity, equity, and inclusion requirements and policies?

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Yeah. So What's the common question? Disability is not it's not that it's not supposed to

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: be included.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: It is a protected class, but it is it it they're in major pushback when you try to get a disability need met. And so it seems like it should be enough to say, okay, these are already our laws. We already have accessibility laws. We already have the ADA and Vermont disability Common Benefits Clause. We already have these things. But it appears to me from my work in the last few years that the thing we need to do is name it explicitly until we get it right in in our policies because that I don't it seems like we include when we it is a lot more unattractive to to there are certain we we have decided which disability, people with substance use disorder, which is also a disability. Like, we've decided that those are things that we we don't we're we're comfortable discriminating against people, and it and it is a little bit invisible even if you see it in your face because people, when they're discriminated against, end up isolated away from other folks. That that I don't know if that really answered your question, but I think the answer is it should be, but it is not being concluded. K. Thank you. Okay.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Bram Kleppner)]: So can I ask you a question? Going through the painful process of trying to get your clients some help Mhmm. When you finally get there to DCF or where wherever it is you're trying to get help for your client, do they get the help?

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: Do you mean do they accept it, or do you mean they do they actually get help when they get there?

[Unidentified Committee Member (possibly Bram Kleppner)]: Well, you finally get through the maze. You get there and I said, I have this client that has this need, and I'm finally in the system. Is that client getting services?

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: So our clients all get services because they all work with us and we are we're very adept at making sure that there's service coordination. But, the they also have us to navigate it for them. So we're so we know that there's people out there who aren't working with homelessness Vermont who who have to navigate themselves and are not are not able to access the services, if that's what you mean. They're all very open to to getting services and support and and will will welcome anything that you're there that you can offer. And I think part of that is that you just listen. Unless unless it's like institutionalization, which is against the Olmstead decision and not best practice.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Thank you.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Thank you so much

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: for Thank being you. You.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Appreciate your time.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: I was gonna just offer, like, to answer that question privately or for the entire community after, because I definitely agree, but DEI is something that I specifically study. Basically, disability is the it's the invisible community within DEI. Because we talk about racism in DEI, we talk about class, and we talk about all of these other things, but disability is often left out. And that's why, like, with the acronym, you'll often see DEIAB because it's diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility, and belonging. What I say is if you do the first four letters first, then the belonging is already included in all of that.

[Dara Torre (Clerk)]: It's really helpful. Yeah. It's very, helpful. Thank you. Yeah.

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: I did not know that. So, you taught me anything today. Well,

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: I think we're going to teach each

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: other Thank very

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: you so much.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Thank you I so

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: was like, Oh my gosh, this seems to be House General.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: I know, yay? Is. Think so.

[Kathleen James (Chair)]: Oh, education, right.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: I think I've been in here in multiple versions

[Brenda Siegel (Executive Director, End Homelessness Vermont)]: So of maybe how Cheryl's upstairs. This was education. You can go up five.

[Kelsey (last name unclear; transcribed as 'Kills Osham')]: I also had a question for you.