Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Alright. Welcome everybody to House Energy and Digital Infrastructure. Today is Friday, February 6, and we are taking some testimony on h seven five three, an act relating to utility service disconnections. And, we're gonna hear today from the, consumer affairs and public information, office at the Department of Public Service. And, I'm happy to see Carol here because you've helped me so many times with constituents. So I appreciate it. We'll go around the room and introduce ourselves. And then we always like everybody in the room to introduce themselves and then we'll turn it over to you for the record. So I'm representative Kathleen James from Manchester.

[Rep. Richard Bailey (Member)]: Richard Bailey, Lamoille too. Tomorrow Windham, Windsor Bennington. Michael Southworth, Caledonia too. Yeah. Christopher Howland, Rutland 4.

[Rep. Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Dara Torre, Washington. Graham Kleppner, Chittenden, 13.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Laura Sibilia, my number two. Great. Ben. Yeah.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: And who's here? Gabriel Molina, down with Rutland Martin.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Sam Hartman of Action Circles. Dean Repay with McCarthy. Scott Johnston with Morrisville Water and Lightnington. Great. Still one's working from behind.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Alrighty. Great. So Carol, for the record, over to you.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Thank you. Madam Chair and committee members, thank you for providing this opportunity to testify. My name is Carol Flint. I serve as the Director for Consumer Affairs and Public Information at the Department of Public Service. We are focused on affordability of the Department and also on the burden of electric rates. The Department is actively working to help Vermonters with utility affordability on many fronts. Our work includes efficiency efforts and efforts to keep rates as low as possible. You likely heard from my colleague TJ Poor about those activities, probably also Karen Johnson, our Commissioner. Jay leads the Department's Planning Division and he can talk more about efforts that are currently underway or planned if you have further questions around affordability specifically. HAPI looked at disconnection data for April over a four year period. Folks have quoted the Governor saying 31% increase in rates. We had looked at April to serve as a proxy for hardship and challenges consumers face. I can't remember the source of the quote that April is the cruelest month, but I often say it as well, it promises to be lovely and both flowers, but it's really quite cold and you may not winter and there are lot of bills. It is a particularly difficult month with a high number of disconnections, so that was our proxy. Disconnections increased by about 31% between April 2022. This is the sum total of seventeen oh four disconnections that the utilities reported to Public Utility Commission for that month and that year. And in April 2025, there were 2,227 disconnections, again, some total reported by utilities to the EUC. And that's where that 31% statistic comes from. The data that the department reviewed did not include pre COVID numbers and that has been a question. But I did take a look at the energy justice slash data before coming in this morning because they have summaries for earlier years. So I looked at April for 2017, 2018, and 2019 to see what it looked like before COVID. And in 2017, there were 2,027 disconnections. In 2018, 2312, and in 2019, 2671. So that data shows that the number of disconnections that occurred last year is about what they were in 2018, but somewhat lower than 2019. So what we're seeing is a reset to pre COVID trends, higher numbers of disconnections that we hadn't seen in five years. Yeah.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Just wanna clarify. These are actual disconnections, not disconnection notices. Correct?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: That's right. These are actual disconnections. And then for '22 and through '25, I just took a quick sum to see how many of those were reconnected, and about eighty five percent were reconnect. And so their disconnections and they get reconnected or paid something, make an arrangement. Thank you.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: You're welcome. Is there hi, Carol. Sorry. Sorry. I was late. Is there a reconnection charge then?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: So those charges vary by utility, and there are reconnection charges, and in some cases, disconnection charges if they have to go out and do that manually.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: If if

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: there is a remote disconnection, which is a relatively new tool that is afforded the utilities by legislative action and will change recently the last couple of years, they are not utilities are not allowed to charge for that remote disconnection presently.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Do you have a sense of the range of disconnectionreconnection charges?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Okay. I didn't do It enough that I wouldn't wanna throw out numbers and be

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: able to it. Thank you.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: You're welcome.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: I have a few questions. I know you're gonna give us the written testimony, but I had a few questions about the numbers too. I just wanted to make sure I was understanding. So the 31% increase stat, it wasn't like a year over year. It just took April 2022 versus April 2025. Mhmm. So how how did how did we look coming, I guess, out of the pan right out of the pandemic? And then how are things looking now?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: So there was a moratorium on disconnections during the pandemic. Right. And so we started seeing disconnections again in 2022. And so the numbers that I just quoted from the energy justice last year shows that we're about on par with what we were seeing before the pandemic. You might see either five or 10% up or down, but if I were to put it on a line graph, it it wouldn't look dramatic.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. So there was that jump, and that was probably the startling number that we heard in the governor's speech. Exactly. 2022 to 2025, it went whoop. Yep. But what you're seeing now more over time between pre COVID and now is level.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: I wouldn't say level, but not dramatic. Not that thirty one percent. Okay. And so we're we'll look we haven't gotten to April '26 yet, so we will look at that, and then we'll know if we're seeing a trend or if it is settling out. I don't know. Not much is the same as pre COVID, so it's a

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: little hard to It is. Yeah. It is hard. It would be I think it would be interesting to see. And I'm trying to remember. I remember we passed you know, we passed the year didn't the legislature I know we gave arrearages Millions. Millions. Yeah. We gave a lot of arrears money, and there was a like you said, a moratorium on disconnects. So I realized there'll be a gap in the data, but if you have it, it it would be interesting to see disconnection rates more over the years, you know, like 2016, 2017, '20 I I would love love to see it anyway to see if we really think that setting aside the pandemic and despite what may have happened between '22 and '26, whether there's a long term trend or

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: So those reports are filed individually in PDF format with a PUC, and so I can say the data exists, it requires opening every PDF for each utility and keying the data in. So, I don't have it at the ready. It's not like I can just query it into the database and produce it. Senate Finance did ask the PC's representative on Tuesday afternoon for that data. So, we'll see what he comes up with. I also had shared the Energy Justice Labs data, which for courts to have, did back into 2010, but there are so many gaps in the data that when I looked at it, was confident that I could share a few years, but I didn't feel good about the rest of it. I'm a sociology major, so I have a professor in my ear saying, You shouldn't use data from two sources, Carol. So, I apologize for that. I tried to get her out of my head. But anyway, yes, that is another data source that does exist that they're ready to query. It's just missing some elements.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: And April is, you said, typically the highest month for

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: just It's not the highest. It's just a good proxy for hardship because once coming out of the winter, winter rules have expired. People have run out of fuel assistance. It's a tough month.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So it's a good Yeah. It it could be sort of a worse Like,

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: could be worst case. Yes.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. R. Howland.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: You don't have a breakdown of what how many of these disconnects are residential? How many disconnects are commercial?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: The disconnection reports are for residential. Yes. And that's an important point. Thank you for asking that question because the disconnection reports are talking about households for many utilities. Business disconnections are not insignificant, depending on the community as a municipal utility, what's happening with small businesses and economy. It's particularly concerning early on in the pandemic what would happen, both the rates at one community set their economies.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: And then to follow-up on Rutland's question, you said the stats are for actual disconnections, not just disconnection notices, but that 80 something percent were then turned back on. You don't have a sense of timeline.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Within fifteen days. Within fifteen days. That data isn't done. The reports, that's how the report is programmed. It could be within a day. It could be within hours.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: But it's just

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: for sure by that fifteen day. For sure by that fifteen day, that's the input for the report. And the other statistic that we looked at, the disconnection reports have categories for the amount of past due that they're disconnecting on, and we saw a 37% increase between April 24 and April 25 for the highest category in the report, which is more than $3.00 $1. Now that amount disconnected on could have been $3.00 2, could have been 10,000. I have no way of knowing what it actually is. That's like the highest bracket. That's the highest bracket. Yes. Okay. I wanted to turn my attention to some specifics in H753. Section A requires that a certificate from a physician or other licensed health care provider remain ineffective for the time period specified in the certification. Currently, the PUC will accept notes from other licensed health care providers. Thank you for your testimony previously that that was not the case, but it is allowed. So, it is not explicitly stated in the current rule, but in practice, a physician's assistant could sign up on the note. There is separate PUC issued guidance from customers submitting these doctor's notes to prevent disconnection, and that does indicate that a certificate can be signed by a medical doctor, a physician assistant, or a nurse practitioner. NP APRN, our credentials are accepted. The current rule does allow for appeals to the PUC for a patient or subsequent use of a physician's certificate. So, for those first two, the Commission does not need to be notified, but if the customer wanted to use a third physician's certificate in a row or a fourth or higher, then the physician's certificate must be submitted to the Commission because the commission may order the use of a physician certificate beyond the limitations listed above.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah, Rexel, Bruce? So

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: the certificates are in a thirty day period or could be longer. Do you see many that are more than thirty days?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: So the language in h seven fifty three allows for a longer period. The current rule is thirty days, then a second, no is possible. And if someone wanted to appeal for subsequent periods of time at thirty day intervals, the way the rule is written, then they could appeal to the PUC for that. And so, in effect, there's opportunity to receive the relief the bill is looking for already in the rule. It's just a very fine point I'm making.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Courtney said it's not necessarily just in practice.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: The rule says that they can appeal to the commission, and the guidance document that accompanies the rule says that as well. The fine point is that it's thirty day period, so that you'd have to someone who is ill would have to seek a doctor's note each time. Right. Okay. For each thirty day period. Brad Campbell? Yeah.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: I had a question about whether some sort of certificate or something actually, it's more of whether the health hazard is the only criteria we heard yesterday from folks representing parent child centers and the presence of young children in the house could also be obviously a serious concern. So I guess I'm wondering whether you have heard issues around that and and maybe that disconnect process.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Certainly, young children in the household coupled with medical concerns, for sure. We've heard, you know, or had for

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Just the young children in Not in the head of It's easy to imagine someone, you know, hitting someone living sort of on the edge and hitting an unexpected bill. Absolutely.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: And testifying for the Department of Public Service today. I think my work there, I have not had families talk to me about that. Twenty two years of community action agency before that. So so it over my decades of experience helping people.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yeah.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: It's absolutely a concern. We have protections in the rule for elders, and that there are some states that do have protections for families with young children. The administrative burden is significant. And even for elders, we don't often see I can think of maybe some instances that come to mind in ten years with the department where we've heard about elders who they're required in the pool to notify their utility in advance because they have additional temperature protections in the wintertime, but it is very rare we get a complaint about that because the winter rules are fairly robust. That is not a community that complains about winter very much. Right.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Right. So So you say the

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: the administrative burdens are significant Sure. Families with young children, if we were to parallel the way the rule is written for elders, would have to notify a utility, and so then you'd have record keeping, additional record keeping, data would have to be kept up to date.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: A burden,

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: you know. It's a burden, and there'll be a cost associated with that, and that will get rolled into rates. Always wear two hats in the consumer role, protecting vulnerable households, people with low incomes, small businesses. That's written into law, we're responsible to do that. We also have to look at the impacts on all repairs for change or protection and try to achieve balance the same way you all are doing that.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Rick Southworth?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Yeah. Go. Go

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: back to the thirty days and then think and then in the rule, it says accept upon written order of the commission. Have you ever seen that utilized where it's extended over the period of time is extended so that they don't have to keep filing every 30 days?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: I don't think I have. I think it's only been for thirty day intervals in succession. And I have seen that for a number of periods of time. The rule got tightened up a little bit a couple of years ago, so this one and then two and then a third one at another time, not consecutive. It's relatively new, last couple of years, but I have seen multiple physicians' notes approved and utilized in a calendar year.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: So you've never seen anything go beyond those two thirty day periods?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: I have. Yes. I'm sorry. I wasn't answering that way. You could understand the I'm sorry. Yeah. Multiple, five, six times Okay. A year.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: Alright. Thank you.

[Unidentified Member]: Of course. And what does

[Rep. Dara Torre (Clerk)]: that process look like? Like, it's easy for someone to reach out to you. They on the disconnection notice, your phone number's there. How do they interact with the POC?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: They would if they did reach out to us, we would refer them to the POC clerk. They answer their telephone. Stop that. You know, it's not like it's just going to a dead mailbox. They're receptive and the PC would, as a regular standing meeting, and if needs be added to their agenda, then they will address it. If there is an emergency, then we do have them. They're few and far between, thankfully. Our utilities are generally very responsive. The PUC is responsive, we're responsive. I can only think of two times we had to file and say, Something bad is about to happen. We need attention today. But if I need that, the lawyers will help us get that attention at the department and we get it done. So, So, there is good process. Yeah. Could

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: you give me give us a little information about and somebody comes to you with a disconnect issue with the utility. How is your interaction with the utility? Is it maybe workable? How

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: does that process work? So if you want to see a third party evaluation where we were recently reviewed by the state auditor's office and the statistic that they threw out was that 96% of the time Vermont utilities were responsive and helped to address the complaints that they reviewed. Some of those included disconnection complaints, but some of them could have been telecommunications issues or not related to an electric situation at all. Generally speaking, I would say that the electric utilities would hit higher than 96% of the time. Will hear back quickly. There are standards for response time from the utilities and that is measured. There are also standards for escalations of complaints and we don't have those kind of problems here in Vermont. They are responsive. My division holds an annual summit with customer service representatives. We like to do that in person so people can ask questions and get answers without being videotaped or, you know, like, just put it out there and we'll talk it through. And we practice together on case situations and rule interpretation and application.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Thank you.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: You're welcome.

[Rep. Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Yeah. So we're more familiar with electric and a little bit of gas, but not water, really. So do you get water disconnection?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Yes. Calls and Yeah. So, so, it's Water is what which water companies that the PUC regulates, I cannot quote you chapter and verse on the law and the rule, but they're very small companies, and some of them have been inherited from one generation to the next. One water utility that people in this area know about because they were in the news a lot is Walton Resort. So we've got a couple ski areas, a couple campgrounds, we want or two. Sometimes the customers are three customers, five customers, 10 customers. There's a water company here in Berlin that might have a few dozen customers in one location, a few dozen in another. This is not like ANR's regulation of water companies that are larger. These are these legacy little tiny ones that you can't imagine giving them additional regulatory burden. For me, I'd rather work on a complicated family household situation than any water company. They're just it's elders who got stuck with this thing. Their husband passed away or at their father, and then they're trying to deal with homemaking and their water company. Awful. Can talk about that a little bit more. Is a good segue for me to move on then into so paragraph b in the bill is about extreme heat. I will talk about water companies a little bit later. The department is supportive of curtailing disconnections during periods of extreme heat because of concerns for vulnerable Vermonters. Absent any specific rule, in the past we have addressed this concern by asking electric utilities to voluntarily hold off on disconnections during heat waves, and this has been successful. Extreme heat could be defined in a variety of ways. It certainly is something that feels like moments different for me than others and different regionally. The US Environmental Protection Agency interactive maps paint scenarios for extremely hot days going forward based upon warming temperature trends, and they count extremely hot days as days when the temperature equals or exceeds 95 degrees Fahrenheit. There are also references to multiple day periods, so it's the third day or second day that it really gets us due extremely hot. National Weather Service data for Burlington, for days the temperature equal, port exceeded 90 degrees Fahrenheit, shows us that between 2015 and 2019, there were sixty five days exceeding 90 degrees Fahrenheit, and between 2020 and 2025, there were sixty eight days exceeding 90 degrees Fahrenheit, and that's indicating just a slight warming trend. There wasn't a readily available data set for 95 degrees, and I think the temperature 92 degrees has been discussed as well, and there isn't data for that either. That was readily available. So, we addressed string heat situations in practice, but it is not an occurrence.

[Unidentified Member]: The requirement

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: for the PUC, the Public Utility Commission, paragraph three, to adopt a rule requiring each gas, electric, and water utility to establish a strategic and a budget fix plan. This is the first section in the bill that talks about this realistic plan to lower or address residential service disconnections. This part of the bill wants to put that plan in new or revised service quality reliability plan. All the electric utilities have such a plan, Brammer Gas has a plan, water companies do not have a plan, a service quality reliability plan. As I said earlier, they're small in number and size and they do think it would be a significant regulatory burden for these little companies for the reasons I discussed earlier, so I do recommend striking water in that paragraph. Far as establishing metrics for disconnections within the Service Quality Plan and Report, This is an emerging topic for performance metrics. I know only one state currently, which is the state of New York, that has an affordability metric tied to disconnections and the metric is terminations and uncollectible incentive. So, this is a performance incentive mechanisms database. Performance incentives are usually used for utilities that are investor owned or earning a profit, So not our co ops, not our municipalities. So they're but I didn't check each utility in New York to know which was investor owned versus of, you know, a smaller utility who kept a book at that. Again, it's it's new.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: That I wanted to learn a little bit more about that. It's definitely been my experience that we've I sometimes learned after the fact that we had enacted a legislation that was first in the country. So and sometimes that's great, and sometimes it's not great. So just remind me, so this metric kind of an emerging stat and New York, is New York the only one that's tracking it right now? That what you said?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: New York is the only one in this performance incentive mechanism database, which is the only database I know about that tracks these kind of metrics. I mean, it's feasible that I I mean, I'll get to say this for the third time this week,

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: I don't know what you're saying about average.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Yeah. So what I do know is this is a database I turn to to look at definitions for performance metrics overall. There's I only got one head in the database and this one

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: what metric. Was it that you what was that one metric?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: It was Terminations and uncollectibles incentive. They have other affordability metrics, and I'm curious and interested in affordability metrics. And, you know, we've done some shop talking around affordability metrics and I think it's reasonable whether or not this is the moment to take a brand new metric and tie penalties to it. I would be more interested in seeing reporting or information before we got deeper into kinda gotcha land, which we don't want.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: And is termination the same as disconnection, or is that some more final Yeah. So I'd have to I don't know what

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: that means. Yeah. Termination uncollectibles. We'd have to look at their rules, their consumer protection rules, and then track it through these cases and really get into a much deeper research. Okay. Probably all good work to do, but not work I did

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: for this audience. Yeah, no. That's great. Okay.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Just wanted to flag that. Fast and furious, maybe not thoughtful. Think it through, report, talk, collect, analyze. Okay. Paragraph c, requiring so it's the same subject, but in paragraph c, the bill asks that the gas, electric, and water utilities establish a strategic and realistic plan for achieving the lowest frequently feasible number of monthly and annual involuntary residential service connections, which parallels the earlier language in paragraph three, but ask that that be added into the alternative regulation plans. Currently only Vermont Gas and GMP have alt reg plans. I don't think we need paragraph C to include a plan I don't think we need paragraph C. I'm sorry my sentence is offered here. Because we can just simply add a plan and goal in the service quality reliability plans. So paragraph three earlier should be sufficient. And I think that paragraph c could be struck in its entirety. Okay. The tools Tell me where you are.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: The bill? Yeah. Done that.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Did it get changed after it

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: was introduced? I don't think so.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: We don't have any

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: yeah. We haven't changed the directive.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Where? So I'm on page three. It's paragraph three. Page four of the bill, paragraph five. Promote improved quality of service reliability and service choices, including a reduction, and so the intent earlier is a reference to alternative regulation, which is in paragraph a. Let's start section three thirty BSA on page three, two eighteen DA, and then down line fourteen and fifteen talks about alternative forms of regulation. Regulation. So, section is talking about the alternative regulation of a plan, and as far as I know, only those two utilities from our gas and GMP have all reg. There's also IRPs, but we don't. That is such a big document now. I think that earlier in the bill, asked for such a plan to be included in the service quality and reliability plan, and that certainly could be for a tiny little utility like Jacksonville, it might be a paragraph, a big utility like GMP, three or four paragraphs are an addendum to that plan would be how I would imagine that. And you got you really got the job done without having to add it in to a document that only impacts a couple of the utilities.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: So you're suggesting that that that subdivision five on page four starting on line nine is what is not needed.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Well five I think is original language promote quality of service reliability and service choices and then where that comma is you could simply put a period and strike the rest of the sentence and I think you've done what your intention is probably without having to add that language. Okay.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Great. Just wanted to clarify.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Yeah. And then, if you did decide to keep it in there, then I would still respectfully request taking the water. Right. Oh, alright. Good. I don't know why I have paragraph c labeled here. So, I mean, that excludes

[Unidentified Member]: what I have to do.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Do folks have any additional questions for Carol?

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Can I get the disconnection 24 to 25% being the 31% increase? It's 20. Okay.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: In April 22, the disconnections were seventeen oh four. In April 25, 2127. And I will make that correction on the numbering and then submit this so you have it in writing as well, sir. Okay. Sure. You're welcome. Yes.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: I just wanted to clarify what I this is what I came up on page two, subject to two k, line 12, where it's just a certificate from a physician or other licensed health care provider. That expands what is in rule 3.3 now, right? It does. And you were supportive of that. I

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: was a neutral. Wouldn't go so far as to say that I'm supportive of it. Think that the rule is written currently.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Just a physician's certificate now.

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: It allows for, right, but in practice and as implemented, the PUC accepts certificates signed by nurse practitioners or physician's assistants or other credentialed and licensed. In practice, So, that is again, it's not a significant problem. If we were recrafting the rule, it would be nice to get that done, but I wouldn't recommend rulemaking for such that reason. And then the point that I think that others were raising was another very fine point in the rewrite about periods of time. Now a family would have to request or an account holder request on behalf of their household member thirty days at a time. Right. Effective in practice, the supports and protections are available. Okay. And it's just a really tiny little tweak.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Alright. Just one quick talk. Right? Thank you. You're welcome.

[Rep. Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Torre, I'm just curious. Do you have, like, an annual report you do that has information about these connections over the

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: course of the year? We have done so in the past. We have not done a report this this January for calendar year data. That's not a regular thing. I know we haven't Dara's iPad required. So she's had It's okay.

[Rep. Dara Torre (Clerk)]: And are there other things in that rules that you think need to be updated that you might be undertaking?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: Mentioned the CABHI's Annual Summit with the Utilities, and so we share and discuss that very much, and there were a few things mentioned. There were also some things that I think are housekeeping from the last revisions required by the legislature to the rule around things that we did, and I mentioned no service fee or charge for remote disconnections, but they are allowed to charge for reconnections. We should look at that data and cost and see what's appropriate or not. Think there are things we could do whether or not that needs to happen this year or next year. They're housekeeping kinds of things, not earth shattering problems.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Well, yeah, I just wanna thank you again. You and your team are always so helpful, I've referred so many constituents to you. Never actually about a utility, but but, you know, in other areas of service, I would say. And you're always very I I've never had you guys not be helpful and not see the situation resolved and having Vermonters feel helped and heard. So that's thanks for your work. And, just so folks know, on this bill, we haven't posted next week's agenda yet because it's still in development. But we are going to be hearing from the PUC on this bill next week. And we're hearing from Scott next. And then we have also invited Green Mountain Power in next week to testify about our Funchables. So, they're going to come in and talk about this bill and others. So, PUC and more conversations from our utilities next week. And I do think we should all be sure to read the latest rule.

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: Yeah. I just thought of a question I'd like to ask.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Sure. If I can. Can't get away that easily. Out

[Various Committee Members (shared diarization channel)]: of the number of disconnections, do you have any data showing if they were low income, income, or higher income?

[Carol Flint (Director, Consumer Affairs and Public Information, Vermont Department of Public Service)]: No. The department does not collect what I would say is classic social demographic data about folks who are asking us for help. We find out what they need if they tell us about their household situation or we might even ask a few probing questions, but we don't track that data. And those probing questions are only from our referral standpoint so that we can think through, you know, who can help, where to send them if they need additional resources. And it is not part of the PUC data, I expect that, if you wanted to get a a good answer about what kind of concerns the utilities would have about collecting that kind of data around privacy protections and comfort and additional regulatory burden, they would be happy to talk to you about that as well. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. Get

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: out while you can. Alright.

[Unidentified Member]: I

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: think we can take five minutes. Yep. We can go out.