Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: And if you don't mind, we'll leave the door open.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: What we can is as long as there's everybody yeah. I can Get quiet.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: See. Ready? You're out, man. The window behind you up. Give it your best.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Alright. Welcome, everyone. It is birthday, 02/05/2026. This is House Energy and Digital Infrastructure. I am representative Scott Campbell from St. Scott Spray. We'll go around the room and introduce our fellows and then speak in the room and try to take testimony. We're going to be hearing testimony today on H753, an act relating to utility disconnections and repair protections.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possible Rep. Bram Kleppner)]: All right. So, Rich, you're out. Rich Bailey from Lamoille Tooth. Christopher Howland,

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Rutland, four.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Territory, Washington, 15. Graham Butler, Chittenden, 13 Burlington. Laura Sibilia, 13.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: Avery Perry, the passengers.

[Audrey Grant (member of the public)]: Sure. Audrey Grant from Parker, Vermont.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Rebecca Dahlgan, the big fifty Vermont. Nico Roeberger from big fifty Vermont. Cathy New, South Burlington, Vermont.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: Richard Lewis, Vermont Interfaith Allen White, and such a Lutheran Church. Okay. Fabulous. And on screen, we have

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Ellen Amstetz.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: Ellen?

[Ellen Amstutz (Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network)]: Hi, Ellen. Ellen Amstetz from the Vermont Parent Child Center Network.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: And it looks like we have Richard Woods. Alright. Thanks. On the list, would you like to go first or Okay. Sure. Alright. So if you wouldn't mind sitting in the hot seat.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: It's probably a hot seat. Well, everything's a hot seat, but that's what I do.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: That's true. Feel free to take off your coat if you'd like. Alright. I'll go over to you. Do you have a presentation?

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: I If you can hook my computer up, yes. Otherwise, I send it ahead. Yeah. Okay.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Well, if you'd like to put it on screen, I know you have a number of things here. Is it basically a written testimony? What

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: I have is an outline, and then I'm gonna read a couple of stories. So whatever's your pleasure.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Well, I guess we can just People

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: can access the testimony online, and we'll just let you go ahead. Okay, great. So, thanks so much for giving me the opportunity to talk about seven fifty three. I'm here really to put a face on it, to tell you some stories about people that I've been in contact with who have had problems with their utility bills. I'm going to be talking particularly about three people, but maybe some others if we have time. I'd like to remind everybody that according to the federal government cost survey, it's a bimonthly survey that comes out from the federal government, as I said, in June, July 2025, 72,000,000 Americans were in arrears on their utility bills. That's one in five Americans. So this particular bill, I think, is very divinible. I want to give you a little background about where the stories come from. Are you familiar with the Joint Urban Ministries Project in Burlington? Okay, I'll pass around some things here that I just got from them for you to keep. JMP is a organization that serves low income and street people. They meet at the First Congregational Church. They're open on Thursday and Friday mornings. If you want to see the face of people who are suffering from economic hardship, and who often have trouble paying their utility bills, show up around four of nine on a Thursday or Friday morning at First Congregational Church in Burlington. And you'll see a line of people at the door waiting to get in. 25 of those people will be admitted. That's all they can handle on a particular day because there are plenty of limitations. And those people will be ushered in, and they will be counseled about whatever programs are available to help them. The problem is, if somebody comes in with a high utility bill and about to be disconnected, all JMP can give them is $75 for that bill, which might avoid the disconnection, but it doesn't get them out of the hole. Nonetheless, JMP does an incredible job. And if you go in, you'll see a really welcoming atmosphere. My wife and I ran a couple of weeks ago during the really cold weather. And five degrees below there, people are standing outside hoping to get a cup of coffee to get out of the cold and maybe get some assistance. Bless you. Thank you. The other thing I want to tell you about is my church's fund that we set up to help people who are falling through the cracks. So we have a fund called the Drive Abyss Fund named after a family in the church who was very concerned about these kinds of things. In fact, Beth was president of the board at jumped for a while. What we do, we have set up a fund in which we can literally instantaneously help somebody, no bureaucracy. All that we do is that we get a reference from junk or some organization that we trust who vets the people. And then we will buy them a motel room for the night. We will pay for a bus ticket. We will, as I'll tell you in the stories, we will pay a utility bill that's more than $75 In fact, we paid the one that I'm going to be telling you about, is actually much more than that. One of the utility bills is over $1,300 that we were able to pay that had gone into disconnect action. So, we've got two organizations, jump, that's trying to meet the needs of people very quickly, and my church. But what I want to tell you is, we're inadequate. There's not enough of us to do what needs to be done. And what we're urging the state of Vermont to do, and the federal government for that matter, is to realize these are societal problems. The not for profit community cannot solve these problems. They've got to be solved in other ways. So, let me tell you a little bit about a couple of people. And all the names and things have been changed, so you don't have to worry about that. First one is about a woman, we're calling her Mo, and we're calling her husband, Anne. This woman came to Vermont as a toddler and raised herself up and became literally a young professional mom. She's asking for help with a $13.77 dollars utility bill that she has no way to pay. If you look at this woman's situation, she's in her late 20s, she has three kids, a baby who was diagnosed with a medical condition. All of these things happen to people that put them into real deep trouble. And so even with help from her family, and even though she had been doing really well personally and professionally, In July, her son had to have surgery and she had to drop down to fifteen hours a week work in order to take care of her son. We're sure that once she gets back on her feet and is able to work, she'll be a productive citizen again and be able to take care of her family. So this is one picture. The electric bill was the thing that threw her into into a real crisis. Oh, yeah. And so we were able to take care of that. And hopefully that's taken the pressure off. Another one is a woman in similar circumstances. In this case, a single mother with a 17 year old daughter and a nine year old son and a six year old daughter. And she qualifies for three squares and all of the things that are available. And by the way, I just learned that three squares is very tenuous right now, which is something I'm sure you're aware of. So here's a woman who can only work fifteen hours a week like the other woman. But can you imagine? She has a kid that has take down to Boston to diagnose and to have surgery for and have an esophageal biopsy. And so the pressures on her are really hard. She was asking for $497 and we were able to deal with that. The third one is one that I'm particularly connected to. I began collecting these stories by posting on Point Four Forum in Bristol, If you're having trouble paying the utility bill, contact me. They me my email address, and I got a flurry of people who, some of them just wanted to emote, frankly. None of these people were asking for money. And so the first one, Kenneth, this is his real name and I have his permission. I'm gonna read this one in his own words, if you permit me. Dear sir, I am 70 YO and always had troubles paying my heating oil fuel bill. For years, I've been asking Hope to help, and they did. Also, assistance helped, but now I can no longer continue to ask any more from them, So I am going without food and clothing. I live in a mobile home in Starksboro. I have watched myself and other person be victim of high cost of heating oils. If they can only deliver a 100 gallons at $8 a gallon, that chunk of income from seniors like me who retired early due to disability, cut penalties to our income and fall in that area above the cut, plus the fact of a high premium monthly removed from income for poor health care coverage, probably his Medicare premium and so on. Well, sir, during the winter months, we lose. At three months out of the year, more than half of our monthly income to pay for heat and electrical utilities. I am a registered voter in the town of Starksboro. Town clerk's office has record of that in my DD two fourteen from my days of service in the US Army, a post Vietnam veteran, which means we were on a ready line in 1974. We're the most forgotten and disrespected veterans, because we did not go to war. I served in Berlin, Germany for two years or better of my term, which means to me, I was there defending my country as well as parts of Germany. Thinking after forty years or less factory labor in this country would net me my benefits from Social Security, from my time served, that I sit here with no dental insurance and a mouthful of decaying teeth, with no financial help to have my much needed oral surgery. Just cannot afford it, even with Vermont Blue. Good luck to you and your group and so on. So this is a You can see that sitting in a screen number. Nothing for these high dose and no way to pay them. I convinced Kenneth to get an estimate of what it would cost to fix his surgery. He didn't want to. He said, I don't have any money. Won't do any good. We don't need any more. Sorry. We don't need any

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: more chairs. Two more is great.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Oh, okay.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Thank you.

[Mika (350Vermont organizing co-director)]: Yeah. Okay.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: He was not at first willing, but I convinced him to go up to Fannie All and get an estimate, which came in at $3,300 to fix his surgery. In the meantime, he began to do more looking into his insurance and he found some coverage from Delta Dental. Our fund paid the rest of it and we got it done about two weeks ago. And he is absolutely grateful. But it's funds like ours that are stressed to try to pay this stuff. And that's why I think a program like this that would ease the burden on people who are paying their electric bills by limiting disconnects and that kind of pressure, I think it's well worth considering. So I hope you'll do that. Thank you. Thank you very much.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Alright. Let's see. Next, we have Nikki. Did I say that right?

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Mika. Mika. Sorry.

[Mika (350Vermont organizing co-director)]: All good. No one gets the first time. Hi, everyone. Yeah.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Alright. Rutland Barger? Yes. R g? R R Yes. Rutland Barger. Rutland Barger. Okay.

[Mika (350Vermont organizing co-director)]: It's an extremely German name. Hi, everyone. Good afternoon, and thank you for taking the time to hear from us. My name is Mika. I use theythem pronouns, and I'm one of three fifty Vermont's organizing co directors. Three fifty Vermont is a grassroots climate justice organization and a member of the Act of Climate Coalition. We are building a people powered and people led climate justice movement in Vermont. We're guided by the voices, experience, and solutions of those most impacted by the global climate crisis. And we strive to work at the intersections of the climate crisis and social justice, like utility justice, to address the climate crisis equitably and effectively. As some background for why we're here today, in twenty twenty four, three fifty Vermont was advocating for House Bill six sixty eight, which was a ratepayer protection bill. It was later folded into Act 142 as an energy cost stabilization study, which you've heard a lot about on Wednesday. This study was directed to the Public Utilities Commission to review the existing programs to reduce utility costs, consider whether a statewide ratepayer program is needed, and then make a recommendation, which came out in December year. Three fifty understood the importance of the statewide repair protection program in 2024, and that importance has only grown in 2026. Costs of living have increased across the board, particularly for our most vulnerable populations. When the PUC began its investigation into the issue at early twenty twenty five, our volunteers and allies remained engaged in the process, submitting public comments and participating in the hearings held by the Public Information Association. As you heard during testimony on Wednesday, the PUC study did not address many of the concerns and recommendations brought forward by us and our allies during its investigation, and declined to recommend a statewide right payer protection program, which I'm not here to advocate necessarily for today. I did include our response report to the PUC's report, however. However, the PUC's report did underscore the significant energy burden many facing, and it became extremely clear through the PUCs investigation that electric disconnections have been steadily increasing over the years despite increased assistance program offered by some utilities. Being disconnected from your electric service or your gas or your water results in a ripple effect of problems. If you lose power, you may not be able to charge a phone or a laptop needed for work. If you use an electric stove, you will no longer be able to cook a meal. And even if you have a gas stove, your fridge and your freezer are no longer working to keep food safe, let alone medications like insulin. What about people with complex health needs like breathing machines or ventilators who are already dealing with an increased cost of living? What if you rely on electricity to heat or cool your home, especially during the increased periods of extreme weather? H seven five three would address these questions and increase protections for our most vulnerable populations. In addition to being here to represent three fifty and our volunteers, I'm also here as resident of the Northeast Kingdom, an area particularly impacted by high energy burden climate disasters and infrastructure that's been unprepared to the slow of problems brought on by the climate crisis. As I mentioned previously, some utilities do offer assistance programs for low income ratepayers, but many of our smaller utilities, like Hardwick Electric, where I live, do not offer assistance. Support systems like Richard spoke about, such as churches, free meal sites, and mutual aid networks are straining as costs go up and more and more residents are in need of help. Many of our neighbors and many of us are one missed paycheck away from having to choose between heat, transportation, food, or medicine, choices that no one should be forced to make. H753 is a crucial move towards an equitable, safe future and a just transition for Vermont. Thank you for your time and consideration.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Thank you very much. Alright. Next, we have does anybody have any questions? I guess I should have asked that all the way here. I'm sorry. A I'm little distracted. My wife got stuck in the snow.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: She's trying recall that.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Did anybody have any questions for either Richard or Nico? Okay. Actually, we'll go on to Ellen on screen.

[Ellen Amstutz (Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network)]: Great. Thank you. Good afternoon, I am Ellen Amstutz. I'm the director of the Vermont Parent Child Center Network, And thank you for the opportunity to share the experiences of our low income families who have children under the age of six who are struggling to pay for utilities. The Parent Child Center Network represents Vermont's 15 parent child centers located throughout the state. We provide a range of in home and community based services to families with children under the age of six. The 15 parent child centers are funded by the state to deliver eight core services that build family resilience, responsive parenting, support child development, protect against economic hardship, and prevent child maltreatment. The parent child centers are trusted places in the community where families turn to in times of need. In this past fiscal year, the parent child centers statewide served over 20,000 families. One of those eight core services that we provide is help with concrete supports. Concrete supports are the material and financial help to address immediate needs and mitigate hardship. This is provided in many forms, including food, diapers, clothing, transportation, and help with rent or utilities. Each parent child center has a small fund to help with these needs. This year, the parent child centers experienced a 28% increase in families requesting concrete supports and utility bills represented a sizable portion of these requests and of the funds that we spend. So I did a, I reached out to our 15 directors and just the parent child centers are all independent 501c3 nonprofit organizations headed by executive directors or a parent child center manager director. So I reached out to them and got some information about how they are dealing with folks with utility cutoffs and disconnects. What I learned from Windham County, our early education services in Brattleboro, Last year, they made utility payments for 39 families last year, paying out a total of $8,000 Most of these families were facing a disconnect notice. All had children under the age of five in the home. They work in with a local partnership through their community action agency. They help families apply for energy discounts. They also provided food and gas cards, grocery cards, so that income could be freed up to pay utility bills. In Central Burlington, we've got the JS Munt family room. Shared with me that they simply have too many families to help who are asking for help with utility to provide support to all who request it. Some of the families that come in have utility bills of over $500 The parent child center staff at the center work with a representative at Burlington Electric to coach families on how to reduce their bills and to make their homes more efficient, as well as applying for energy assistance programs. And the parent child center uses that fund that I talked about to reduce the bills and help folks negotiate payment plans. In St. Albans, the parent child center at Northwestern Counseling and Supportive Services shared a few stories with me. One was a single mother with three children who missed a payment and faced a disconnection notice. Other cases were a single parent with two children who lived in a, you know, old substandard apartment with very high electric heat bills. The patterns we noticed that director noticed are they were predominantly single parents raising children on one income and falling behind because of, you know, loss of income or some unexpected expense and needing to make a decision about which bill to pay. And sometimes utility felt like the least, the one that could be skipped. Unfortunately, that isn't the case. Then in the Northeast Kingdom, we've got two parent child centers that are part of the community action there, and they serve a very low income community. They, with the community action agency, coupled coaching assistance and fuel assistance programs with the utility payments and other concrete supports to help those families stay afloat while they work on longer term solutions. In Lamoille, at the Lamoille Family Center last year held 15 households paying out $3,300 to utility companies to prevent disconnection. One example the director there shared with me was a two parent family who welcomed their third child. The mother worked at a local ski area and had to take unpaid maternity leave. There were no infant slots available in childcare, so she had to stop working temporarily. And during that time, the family fell behind in their water and electric bills. They lived in an unweatherized trailer with electric heat during the cold season. Their bills were very high. And Lamoille, that director, also shared with me several examples of people whose families who simply don't earn enough from jobs to cover their housing costs, and that needing to make that decision about which bills to pay. Often a family prioritizing the housing, the rent bill over the utility bill, getting them into a problem with facing a disconnect for the utility. One particular family was so far behind in fees and penalties that it was simply prohibitive to turn back the utilities on and for them to meet monthly payments. Substandard housing and unweatherized housing does seem to be a problem for families, resulting in high heating costs and utility costs, electric heat and trailers, for example. Families earning farming wages or other low income and can't make the full monthly payments. You know, we know that living without utilities and substandard housing conditions can be detrimental to the health and well-being of young children, but what can be even more consequential is the stress and adversity that parents experience and the negative impact on the cognitive development of babies and toddlers at a most critical time in brain development. Parents cannot provide the nurturing and stable care that is critical to healthy brain development when they're facing daily stresses of making ends meet. It is of critical importance that utilities are affordable to families. Poor families are disproportionately impacted by having utilities take up such a large portion of their budgets. It's critical that families, and especially those with very young children, be protected from utility disconnections. The parent child centers can help, and they are help, but we are simply unable to keep up with the needs. Separately, we are requesting an increase in our concrete support funding from the state to enable us to assist more families along these lines. But by providing short term financial supports when families need the most, we can mitigate hardship and help navigate, help families navigate the short term challenges. Parents can be better at parenting when protected from the most adverse consequences of being poor, including with going without basic services. So, we hope you'll consider how families with young children impacted by high utility costs and support H753 and the Parent Child Centers' request for additional funding for its concrete supports. They are Vermont's next generation, and we need to ensure they are raised in safe, nurturing, and healthy environments, and their parents have support and stability, they need to do that. Thank you very much for hearing me.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Thank you, Ellen. I I would say that all of your stories are very compelling. This this bill is a pretty narrow response to the issue. It's just it's just about telling each other these Well, actually, it's Professor Corey's bill, I don't know if you want to talk about it. It's about avoiding disconnections to the extent possible and beginning to track disconnections as a metric for judging their performance. Really, the answer to the problem that you're talking about is much more comprehensive than that. It's about finding a way to subsidize the actual electric rates of folks in this lower end of the economic ladder, and how do we do that? How we pay for that? But I don't know. Do you want to raise comments?

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. I mean, this did I think Mika referred to the bill from 2024, which was much more comprehensive. And and there is a version of that, an updated version of that in the Senate now, which would look at, you know, a rate solution. Percentage of income or tier discount. But that hasn't really been, was not supported in the PUCs back 01/1942.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: Yeah, before it is.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Of course, we have the ability to request it or we would But require I felt like with the time that we had this term, would be at least helpful to look at disconnections themselves. And I heard through this summer that there are examples, and we're gonna hear from someone tomorrow. Scott Johnstone at Mooresville, where they've had a lot of success preventing disconnection. So I, you know, I feel like that's where the the idea for this bill was to incentivize the utilities through this metric to, you know, it's a hard problem, but there could be strategies and there could be knowledge sharing and best practices that could help prevent some disconnections. And then of course there's some clean up in the statute itself we're gonna hear about from Carol Flint at the department. They deal with whenever someone gets disconnected, their notice tells them that they can call the department, consumer assistance. Hearing her perspective on increasing notices that are going out is going to be important. And of course, the Department of Public Service itself has done a study on energy burden and disconnections and actually had some recommendations

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: that

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: this bill can carry forward. So it's not out of nowhere. This is from where there's a history here, and this is a step. And it's a great opportunity to hear stories from our communities. And we all know that times are getting tougher for people. So I feel some urgency in being responsive and I really appreciate your time and your testimony the roles that you all play.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Yes, and

[Ellen Amstutz (Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network)]: I think the protections would be very important, and I know that our staff would want to really understand folks rights and be able to work with them. And we're doing that already with the utility companies. I mentioned our Burlington folks really get on the phone with the utility negotiate, hey, what can we do here? We'll pay a little bit, that utility workout, payment plan. So agreed that this is a multi step process, the subsidies and the support would be great, but the protections would be an amazing first step. So we'd we'd really support and work with the utility companies and our families on that.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: I will say that there's a lot to be said for a performance metric as a way of asking utilities to figure out yourself. This is what you gotta do. How are you gonna do it? You guys you guys can figure it out in terms of tracking disconnections and and and requiring them to drive down the rate

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: of disconnection. Compassion. But for him be very nice.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Yeah. I know

[Ellen Amstutz (Director, Vermont Parent Child Center Network)]: Jim in his testimony yesterday mentioned that some states have protections for families with very young children, and, you know, I would say that would be something to consider also for the reasons I mentioned about healthy brain development and how important those first few years of life are for safe, stable parenting with a parent who can really be attentive and nurturing.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So I agree this

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: is

[Unidentified Committee Member]: an important bill that addresses a real question in helping people with the spiral that you mentioned when you get your power cut off, everything else goes wrong in your life pretty quickly. And to your initial comments, Representative Campbell, this is one small part of a problem. The real problem is people don't have enough money for all the stuff in their lives. We heard they're paying the rent to avoid getting evicted instead of paying their power bill. Better to have a cold roof over your head than no roof over your head. But they're both bad. And you know we hear these stories about people whose kids are sick and need medical attention in Boston.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: And you

[Unidentified Committee Member]: know if you have a sick kid then that is you'll do anything to take care of that kid. You'll skip your rent payment, you'll skip your utility bill, you'll skip all all those things. And as we've discussed, the problems are all connected. Affordable housing, property taxes, health care costs, energy costs, they're all they're all tangled up. And every little bit helps. This bill is a little bit, which will help a little bit. And and we will keep trying to make Vermont work for the people who live here.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Chittenden?

[Unidentified Committee Member (from Chittenden County)]: Yeah. I I just wanna thank all of our witnesses today. As someone who grew up in rural poverty and spent a lot of time being cold in the winter and has experienced electric disconnections, I appreciate your advocacy on behalf of those people who have smaller voices and may not be able to be here. Having said that, I think that there are aspects of this bill that I I think I could support, you know, looking at making sure we understand what disconnection policies are with our electric utilities. I wanna make sure I'm as clear as I can be about the concerns that I have. We are looking at here we're focusing our attention on regulated utilities. And what they are regulated for now are rates and affordability, and in particular, our electric utilities, which I've spent a lot of time thinking about. The PUC is trying to you know, is suppressing rates. They have to balance, keeping the lights on, hardening the grid with, climate, what we're seeing with winds and weather. They have to balance the requirements that we put on them around renewable energy, which, I think is really important. And there's a pretty big balance that we are trying to achieve here, and our utilities are asked and regulated heavily to, comply to that. And I don't know if you saw the testimony yesterday, we have a pretty distinct regulatory environment that is different than a lot of other states, which have a market type environment where you have, choice and competition, and that's not what we have here in Vermont. We have heavily regulated utilities. I am always open to looking at and asking, have you thought about this? Help us understand. I'm worried there are some there's no fuel oil in here. And, you know, and they continue to stick out like a sore thumb as the unregulated, really critical resource that people need to get places and stay warm, and we do not contemplate from here. So I will listen hard. I will think hard, but this is challenging for me. It feels a bit like we're pulling a couple of Jenga pieces and not really looking for the system. So happy to hear more, learn more, and sincerely appreciate your advocacy on behalf of cold people and poor people. So I hope you'll hang in there and help us think about, you know, that system and systemic solutions here. Thanks, mister.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possible Rep. Bram Kleppner)]: Oh, my god. I was I just wanna respond to that. Sure. I just wanna make the point that these utilities are guaranteed a rate of return in our regulated market.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: One to

[Unidentified Committee Member (possible Rep. Bram Kleppner)]: two. Well, the yeah. The alright. So the the majority of Vermonters are served by utilities that are guaranteed a rate a significant rate of return every year. So not to counteract all your points. I'm just saying that, like, that's you know, they're doing fine. So balancing a lot of different concerns.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: Yes. For sure. But, you know,

[Unidentified Committee Member (possible Rep. Bram Kleppner)]: it gets their 8% or whatever. Is 7%. What is that? 11. It's 11 now?

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: I don't. At one point, it was. Yeah. But I I

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: think Richard was next. So

[Unidentified Committee Member (utility background)]: I appreciate all these stories, and I worked in two utilities. And although I did not work on disconnects, I overheard a lot of going out disconnects. And believe me, those people do not wanna pull the plug on you folks. They try to work very hard with them to get a payment plan that they can work with and do what they can to try to keep keep the power on. One of these stories you gave us is my my suggestion, and I'm not saying it's an answer, but when you're seeing you're starting to have troubles with your utility bill, they should immediately start calling customer service to try to see if they can get ahead of it rather than, like, they keep going, going, going, to see if you can catch it at the front part of it rather than get into a $1,300 utility pump. But the folks I worked with always were trying to work very hard to keep the power on when they could. So Could

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: I respond to that? Sure. And I I think there are no bad people here, really. And I and I appreciate what you say, and I'm sure it's true. Early on in my career, I was deciding whether to pay the phone bill, buy food, whatever. I've been a teacher all my life. But in the beginning, it was tough.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Problems

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: accumulate beyond what you ever thought possible sometimes. And so your advice is right. Get in touch with the utility right away, but sometimes your head's exploding for a family and it's over. I think we have to be mindful that there are situations in which there needs to be some other mechanism to prevent these problems. You guys have a tough job. We appreciate it. We really do. You're doing tough work.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Mhmm. And you're on the front lines. You've given people a hand. I'll make sure. Go ahead. Finish it. That's the just so, Chris, it's

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: an allowed rate of return. That means that they are allowed to make up to that rate of return. And so when the revenue doesn't come in, then in the following year, they're going to adjust the revenue requirements so they can they can try and earn at a loud rate of return. So 275,000 people are served by one investor owned utility in this state. And I think we're kind of tunnel visioning in on the investor owned utility where the shut offs are way up in the Northeast Kingdom than lots of other areas. I think I think we're tunnel visioning a little bit too much on the utility that does have an assistance program. And what we hear is that people aren't applying for it because it's too little. And 200 kilowatt hours residents cost about $70.75 dollars a month with all the little attachments. And, you know, that's 25% of that bill is only 17 family.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Well, that's a great point about the performance metric because you would say to yourself, we have an energy assistance program. And so you say one of the metrics could be about what percentage growth in uptake did you have?

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: Or

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: what new strategies did you try for recruitment? Because there's a lot of you know, you don't always reach people the right way, and you and you might have to try try it a different way. And then there's also the possibility that a flat decrease might not be the only option

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: you're wanting to explore. You know? Decrease in the failure means? Yeah. Yeah.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: So but I do work here.

[Unidentified Committee Member (possible Rep. Bram Kleppner)]: Pay for electric bills? I'll take it in.

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: Why it is heat. Is it is it also?

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Oh, yeah. HEAT. The HEAT Assistance Program?

[Unidentified Committee Member (possible Rep. Bram Kleppner)]: Mhmm.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Yeah. I think it's just HEAT. I think state

[Rep. Laura Sibilia (Ranking Member)]: has discretion about what it is.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Oh, oh, LIHEAP. That's what you're asking. Right. Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. I think it I think it is heat, but if you're if you're getting your heat from electric, then it helps you electric. I think it helps with your prime with your primary heating source, your harmony fuel.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: Great.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: Well, any other questions? Any other comments? No. Guess we will wrap it up and make some adjustments to the bill if you if you see fit, Rutland, since it's your bill. Thank you. And rest of me as well.

[Richard Lewis (Vermont Interfaith Action / Ascension Lutheran Church)]: Great. Alright. Thank you.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair, presiding)]: I guess we can go offline.