Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: On. We're

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: live. Alright. Welcome everybody to House Energy and Digital Infrastructure. We are here today on Thursday, January 22, and we have been taking testimony over the past couple weeks about the copper to fiber transition and consumer protection. And we, after taking some testimony and giving it some thought, I asked our legislative council to draft some language for us to look at and see if we want to, advance it. So I'm representative Kathleen James from Manchester.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Scott Campbell from Saint Johnsbury.

[Rep. Richard Bailey (Member)]: Richard Bailey from Lamoille Two. Chris Morrow, Windham, Windsor Bennington. Michael Caledonia two. Christopher Howland, Rutland Thorre.

[Rep. Dara Torre (Clerk)]: Dara Torre, Washington two.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Jonathan Wolfe, the former site growth now for smaller chuck roasts in Vermont.

[Dana (Crasson Group)]: Dana with the Crasson Group.

[Andrew Brewer (on behalf of CCI)]: Andrew Brewer on behalf of CCI Video.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: And Maria Royal with legislative council. So, okay. So, yes, this is a draft committee bill. So there is no bill number yet. That doesn't happen until it's introduced on the house floor. So it's just the drafting request number, which is 26Hyphen0726. And we're looking at draft 1.2, and the time is 12:30 today. And I mentioned that because there were several drafts, and Alex was extremely patient. But I just wanna make sure that everybody's literally on the same page. So, will go through this proposal and what's added to this also is I think, Representative James, you mentioned maybe including some of the H11 provisions on void So, are some provisions related to that as well, which you'll see as we get there. Great. So, this proposal adds a new section of law to Title 30. And the title

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: I'm sorry. Title 30 is Are we in consumer protection law? We're We're in utility. Utility. Service. Right.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yep. Alex, could you print some copies of this? Yeah. Have a hard copy.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. Thank

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: you, Alex. Yeah.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: Nice to do.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Do you prefer working from a hard copy and not having it up there? Because I'm happy. Yeah.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: A boat.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: It's just hard to like no problem. Dude, okay. Okay. So, the title has transitioned from copper based to fiber based telephone service and backup power obligation. So both of those subtexts. So we start with findings in subsection a. The general assembly finds that when a telecommunications carrier transitions its infrastructure from a copper based network to a fiber based network, It is critical to ensure that existing customers have continued access to high quality, reliable telecommunications service. Two, on page two, the transition to voice over Internet protocol, VoIP, what you refer to throughout, rest of the bill, service over a fiber based network may affect service reliability, consumer choices, and access to emergency services, particularly for vulnerable populations, including older adults and those with medical dependencies. Three, unlike traditional service over a self powered copper based network, otherwise known as POTS or Plano old telephone service. A fiber based service relies upon an optical network terminal, which must be connected to a power source or outlet at a customer's home or business in order to be operational. So or in the event of a power outage, most backup batteries connected to the ONT will provide VoIP service for up to eight hours. However, backup power systems that provide service for longer duration are also available. And then five, just to get up to speed, when we looked at age 11, the VoIP staff at that time, there were federal FCC regulations that required the availability, the offering of backup power. First it was eight hours and then it was up to twenty four hours. Those regulations have since been sunset by operational law. So, that's one of the changes from the earlier drafts. But I did want to include in the findings what the requirements had been to the extent you wanna consider any kind of state requirements. So finding number five, previously, federal regulations have required providers of facilities based fixed residential voice services that are not line powered to offer for sale at least one option with eight hours of standby backup power as well as an additional twenty four hour option to ensure customer equipment maintained p nine one one access during a power outage. However, those requirements were sunset by operation of law on September 1. This is past fall. Six, there is a need for clear consumer protections that ensure adequate notice, reliable service, and the availability of backup power solutions during the transition to and in the provision of VoIP service. And then finally, subsection B is an intent section. It is the intent of the general assembly to protect Vermont customers during a copper to fiber network transition and to ensure that VoIP service providers meet minimum backup power requirements necessary to ensure continuity of e nine zero one service. The only requirements now that are in here are mostly related to disclosure, consumer disclosures. Right. And a reporting requirement about outages, which we'll get to. So just to be perfectly clear, the definition of voice service means an interconnected, that's interconnected with public switch telephone network, that's 10 digit telephone with the calling system. So an interconnected facilities based fixed residential voice service that is not line powered. And this just refers to residential voice service, that's what the FCC regulations apply to, but I know there were some concerns about businesses that were having to transition. And so, if a business owner doesn't live in the service territory, they might not be aware. Anyway, I just wanted to flag that issue. So then D, this is kind of the sub one of the substantive requirements. So notice of network transition. The telecommunications carrier proposing to transition from a copper based network to a fiber based network in its service territory shall provide written notice to the commissioner of public service and to all affected customers at least ninety days, sixty days, and thirty days prior to the planned transition. In a form and manner prescribed by the commissioner, the notice shall include one, the date the transition is expected to occur. Two, the details of service changes, including any potential impacts to a customer's current telephone and broadband service as applicable. Three, instructions for customers on how to transition their service to voice service or alternative services, including information and technical support for customers seeking to continue home monitoring equipment, such as a security system, medical equipment, or other equipment that relies upon telephone service function properly. Four, disclosures about the carrier's obligation to provide regulated landline voice service to all residential customers in its service territory, including its obligation to provide a calling plan at the same price as offered prior to the transition unless a customer voluntarily chooses to make service changes. And that usually comes about if somebody wants a bundled service, wants Internet access and a voice service that might affect. But if you just want the voice service, then they're required to provide something comparable to what you had.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Could you mind scrolling back up? Because I was gonna ask a question

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: and then I thought I'd wave,

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: but now I'm already losing track of it. Sorry. Could you go up to where it says something about the commission in manner informed

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: in Oh, this the yeah.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: In a form and manner prescribed by the commissioner, what does that mean?

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: So, I mean, sometimes for notices like this, it'll say in a clear and conspicuous, it'll even say the font or like on a page, a separate page, like, just to make sure it's obvious to the customer. So this is basically saying that the commissioner come up with what the notice looks like, how these disclosures are made. They're still required to be made, you know, ninety days, six days, thirty days. Like, the form, how it appears, how it's distributed on the what kind of document. So it's not a tiny print. You know? It's it's meant to get to that aspect.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Does written notice legally mean it has to be a hard copy

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: that comes

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Typically. In the

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: And you can specify anything that you want.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. So So I just wanna flag then Yep. That little bit. Written notice in form and manner. Yeah. Yeah. I'm just curious if we envision a role for the commission for the department in in being like a partner in getting a word out.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. There's another subsection that talks a little bit more about that.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: So we'll get by. Yes. Okay. So as part of the disclosure, information on the availability of backup power options and battery backup devices to ensure each customer can maintain service continuity during the power outage, including clear information on the availability costs and installation procedures for battery backup systems. Costs this was modeled after the older language where they had to have the disclosures. And so they probably still some information about what's available to customers. The provider might not know the cost if they're not actually selling the devices, so might need to tweak that language a little bit. Thank you, Tom. And six, a brief summary of and link to the consumer protection rules and PUC rule 3.3. This is the PUC rule on disconnections.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Brent Southworth.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: So one thing that I'd like to you see any link to consumer protections? I'm assuming you've been a link for Internet lookup.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Yes. Yeah.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Some people don't have it. Yes. Yep.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: So, like,

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: about something here. 7,

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: contact information for carrier customer support and for Kathy within the department. 8, as just a general petrol, any other disclosures deemed necessary and appropriate by the commissioner and consistent with the purpose of this session. And e is requirements for VoIP service providers to report information to the department. And this would apply the way it's written now. And this might be a little confusing, but it's meant to apply to all VoIP service providers, not just those who are transitioning networks. So it specifies that beginning on or before November 1 and annually thereafter, each VoIP service provider shall file a report with the department detailing the number of customers who have purchased battery backup systems from the carrier and the cost of battery backup options offered to customers if applicable, and documenting any known incidents where nine one one access was impaired due to the lack of backup power. And f is the enforcement provision. You had mentioned what kind of enforcement or penalties, and it's basically just referencing the existing enforcement authority of the commission, the perspective violations of title 30 generally. So F those penalties are authorized in section 30 of title 30 and the commissioner the commission's authority to impose injunctive relief is authorized under sec two zero nine of this title. So, again, just the general enforcement provisions. And then g concerns department monitoring, and this is almost identical to what was in h 11. One of the provisions. So in addition to reviewing that annual reports that the VoIP service providers file that we just looked at, The commissioner of public service shall review quarterly the outage reports submitted to the e nine one board pursuant to the board's rule governing outage reporting requirements for originating carriers and electric power companies to determine if there are areas of the state particularly prone to carrier or power outages and assess whether locations in those areas have access to facilities based fixed voice service that is line powered. So, copper service or to voice service offered by commercial mobile radio service. So, cellular service. In addition, the commissioner in coordination with the office of the attorney general shall establish a mechanism for receiving and tracking any consumer complaints concerning VoIP service quality and reliability. And then subsection h is the general department education and outreach. It specifies that the commissioner shall develop consumer education and community outreach initiatives designed to ensure, on page six now, one, all customers impacted by the transition from a proper base network to a fiber based network are aware of their rights and the carrier's obligations during the transition. And two, all customers who use VoIP service are aware of the risks and best practices concerning emergency preparedness in the event of a power outage. Then subsection I is a reporting requirement by the department and it specifies that the commissioner shall include in their annual report that they file with the legislature. Additional findings and recommendations related to the implementation and enforcement of this section. And then in the report that would be the next year and only in that report, the commissioner shall consider and make recommendations on one, whether the state should establish a program designed to provide financial assistance to low income customers for costs associated

[Unidentified Committee Member]: with

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: the purchase and installation of backup power equipment that was in the h 11 section. Two, whether the state should enact additional backup power obligations applicable to VoIP service providers. And that's in addition to what's in here, which is mostly disclosures and reporting. So once the FCC regulations were repealed or something, I know some states have been looking I don't know if any states haven't acted anything yet. They were just repealed September, but I think, like, the California PC is looking at whether they should impose state requirements similar to what the FCC had. And then the other thing, the this would take effect on passage, and then there's just a question about when you wanted to apply the carriers in the state. And right now, it just says September 1. Okay.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Was there anything in what in the section that went through everything they had to disclose? Was there anything about, like, discount programs for income eligible promoters or anything?

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: No. You can certainly add that.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Sorry. It was Yep.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Okay. Yep. So information about Dispense Lifeline. Yeah. Federal and state Lifeline program. Mhmm.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: What? Not despite.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Have their own. Their own.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Care so carrier discount. Yeah. Carrier discounts. Like,

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: if you're income eligible, you can get, you know, a cheaper monthly rate for for service.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: How can they?

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: I think they apply Christmas about this. They apply Right.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Comcast piggyback on on

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: some On snatch something. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: They had, like, the list four or five different programs that if you qualify for, you you would get the discount. But they would have

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: to verify that if the person is receiving. Yeah. I

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I just remember how they verify it, but really I think they just need that the person needs needs to just send in a copy of their. Yeah. But don't quote me on that. You guys look that up again.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. And that so I wasn't sure Comcast would apply to their Internet offering.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Oh, this is the

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Internet. Whatever. Yeah.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: But you could include both. Right? So the customer understands what service. A lot of people consider getting data.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yep. Yeah.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So, yeah, the miracle of ledge council. They ideas and reading turn into

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: The miracle of Maria.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: The miracle of Maria. Yeah. The expert.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Just let you know, whatever whatever mistakes are in here, there were a lot more twenty minutes ago.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So Yeah. So alright. Just a couple things. We had Alex already working, I think, on lining up testimony on the draft next week. And we have reached out to, Alex, maybe you can help me. Yeah. Part. Like, reach out to Sarah Davis. Sarah Davis

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: at

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Consolidated? Yes. Jonathan Wolf or the smaller. Yeah. Barbara Neal and Hunter Thompson.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Jim Porter.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: I reached out to him, but I think Hunter was just gonna come in. K. Got a response.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I may have committee bills where I got the, you know, the long form and the short form, but I'll be the the member of the You can do a committee bill anytime and just

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Make it up.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Make it up. And then

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: That's what we did.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay. There's no deadlines or anything on that. Just make it up.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: I think I haven't done a bunch of them. Cross crossover. Yeah.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Well, But

[Unidentified Committee Member]: yeah. Okay.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yep. We've

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: already heard testimony about the about the retirement of copper. We

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: did. So we heard we heard kind of informational testimony about the retirement of copper, but we didn't have a bill. And so now we have a bill, and so it's it's definitely our obligation to now invite everybody back in to say, like, okay. Here's what we're thinking about doing. You know, what's your feedback?

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: My understanding when they presented it as a role in the original fiber that they would be retiring in areas as the role of additional fiber. They are unfortunate state that will remain copper for some time.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. So this the idea of this is to get this in place now so that as future regions of the state start to make this transition, we have consumer protections in place that they have to follow. Yeah. In terms of notes. Yeah. Particular.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Two days, twenty four hours of battery backup is a whole lot of lot backup. I wonder if they can provide roads along the way of adding energy along the fiber to extend time in which you get a cell signal. Like on the traditional copper line that you study.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So my and I think I think that that my sense of the committee on this bill anyway was that we wanted to focus on not necessarily on mandated upgrades to equipment, but rather on how as companies make these inevitable transitions to make sure that Vermonters are properly notified that they know what's happening, that they have the information they need to make an informed decision and kind of limit our work here on this bill to kind of consumer protection in the sense of you've got all the info you need about what's going on. This is a possibly big tech technological transition. You should know what's happening and be able to make an informed choice Mhmm. And put some, you know, some basic basic measures in place. Mhmm. So I I wasn't envisioning that we'd go beyond that to requiring

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: No. But I just am concerned as to where it is applicable or not applicable, meaning that where there's gonna be copper out there for some time to come. But once they come through with fiber, you have voice over Internet or nothing. Right. Yeah. Right.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: At which time, people have

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: very catch 22. They don't get cell service, and now they gotta have a battery. Yeah.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: Exactly. That's why we're doing this.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. We should make some of these high power walls for every one.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Big deal. Excuse

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: me. But it knows the trade name.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. But I like your. But I think that just makes explicit the fact that there is some risk that our customers who their power will go out and will be out for more than two days and their battery will run out and they won't have telecoms.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: We can be explicit about that. But we don't also have a measurement of the number of consolidated customers that have left consolidated for their bundle on their fiber service. Well, that's one of the issues with consolidated now is that they've lost a lot of traditional landfines and the subscription dollars that come with that.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Are there so that's what I think that was our original thought on testimony. Am I missing miss anybody? We've got e nine one one board, the department, consolidated. We've got Jonathan, if they wanna come in and just make a quick comment. Are we missing anybody? I that we need to hear from. Yeah. We're trying we're trying to get them in all next week. Right, Alex?

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Mhmm. Okay. Yeah. Everybody will be in next week.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: If you want a consumers experience with it, I got a instant junk email about this this morning. Great. And he would be, like, testing that. Super. I don't know if you wanna get invited back. Well by the things.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: I would say Does this get better? It's really good. Yeah. Would this have helped? You know? The the only reason I'm hesitating is that, knock on wood, famous last words, we can all laugh later. This could be a bill that we could potentially move along pretty quickly.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Yeah. Let's

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So unless we really feel like we need to hear from somebody who's been impacted, I'm I'm trying to do that. Why don't you think about it, Chris? And, you know, half an hour if he wants to come in and testify or bounce off this bill, like, here's our language with this appeal to you. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I I really appreciate that, this bill forward. It is a small bill, telecommunications, and it's a big, area. This, I think, will have a big impact to just making sure that our, you know, nine eleven and the Department of Public Service are aware is of. That's a huge impact right there. You know, that allows them to do their job better. I am grateful for this measure and would love to leave it alone. That's great. There's plenty for us to work on.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: I mean, right?

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Because you get to present it on the floor. But Southworth?

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: So the one thing that keeps coming back to the point is the people that only have telephone service now, there is no package for just telephone service that is gonna be offered at this point. So and and they stated in their testimony that they would keep providing service to them until such time as they had an an option. Okay. Is there some way that we can protect that?

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: That's a really good question to ask the Protect what? Well,

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: protect the going forward. Are they still gonna be serviced and serviced to a point where it's the quality of services. So

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: you could definitely talk about this because it's a problem. But my understanding is because voice services are regulated service that they can't just drop you if they don't have the alternative VoIP service, just voice at the same rate. They can't they can't do anything in terms of changing your service until that option is available.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: That being said, you know, you can definitely hear from

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Hunter and if, you know, support to put that in here to make sure nobody is shut off before there is a comparable service available. Yeah.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: And that's not already provided?

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: I think it's already required because it's a regulated service. Yeah.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: Just how do we know that they're going to continue the quality of service for a very limited and sparse spread

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: out?

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: And maybe by then, they will have it figured out, they'll have it. And they'll they'll employ.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Matt Mhmm. I'm sorry. My sense and past experience is that is be very generous here. Extremely difficult for them to maintain that quality because of this.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: I know. I was trying to be kind.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: And so I think that is why they are moving so quickly. I I and I at least in my region, we believe they're moving very quickly. I don't have a sense of how quickly they're moving through the state. But

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: Well, we've seen two filings in a matter of a couple of weeks. And we know that they're probably gonna be on the the higher gear to get this switched over. Mhmm. Because it says that they're losing months.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Mhmm.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: So I just wanna make sure that we don't lose sight of the people that just have phone service, and that's it.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Maybe we could Maria, can we if you don't mind, can we spin back through the bill and let's all make note of where we might want to make changes to the language or where we want to make sure we get the like, ask questions or I just don't wanna I I don't have the best memory. Like, I wanna make sure we don't forget anything. So the findings are are great. I I don't think thank you for writing those. No problem. And then the definitions to There's only one definition. So I'm on page three, notice of transition.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: The only issue on the definition is whether you that I was aware of based on what you discussed is whether you wanted to limit it to residential or include businesses.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. And that would be a question, I guess, we could ask everybody. Or ask we could ask Phineon, and we could ask the department, I guess. And this is question. Okay. So we wanna get that question resolved. Then on notice of transition line eight, I had a question about written notice and then form and manner. And I guess I'll for me, in my mind, that would be, I guess, a question for the department and also for for What do you envision this looking like? I just wanna be able to picture.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: In addition to what's here? Uh-huh. So, I mean, you could definitely specify that it's in a written form. Uh-huh. If you wanna go beyond that, in statute, you know, there are specific things you want, like nailing with their bill on a separate document in

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: a certain

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: font, you can do that or you can leave it up to the discretion of the commissioner to develop what the form looks like Mhmm. And how it's that's is it mailed separately? Is it mailed with the invoice? Or that so it's left very kind of open Uh-huh. For the commissioner's discretion, but you can add anything that you think is appropriate that you

[Unidentified Committee Member]: wanna make sure. Ask for

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: her to come back in at some point. Alright. Let's see.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Or just I I'd be curious just to ask the commissioner. You guys done this before. What do you think it would look like? I would just like to hear what they're stating I right

[Unidentified Committee Member]: mean, it does say to notify the commissioner directly via email.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Well oh, it does say written on its it doesn't specify, but you can specify email. I think notifying the commissioner on the nine one one board

[Unidentified Committee Member]: via email and written mail, like, both. And

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: you can use cert button now. I mean, there are lots of options.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Eight numbers less than one third of my 128.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Certified in electronic and then and then having them having the commissioner that's not the discretion you were giving the commissioner, was it? No. The discretion you were giving the commissioner was

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: So what the actual disclosure look like? Yeah. Which that

[Unidentified Committee Member]: seems appropriate to me.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Wait a second here. Alright.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Highlighting blue.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Highlighting blue, and I just gained a deeper level of understanding. Okay. So we've got two things going on here. Actually, I skipped too quickly. So written notice to the commissioner of public service. That's one thing. Yes. Okay. So that's where we talked about that. We wanted not just to go to the commissioner of public. That's okay.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: I know.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: We wanted to go written and email to the to DPS, to the e nine one one board. I thought there was somebody else.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: It goes to the PC already and the and the governor.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: And the defensive Department of War, whatever it's called now. That's right. So so it already goes to the gov, to the PUC, and to the federal secretary of defense. Okay. And we wanna add that it goes to DPS and E nine one one by written and email. And I thought we wanted to say that there has to be a cover letter or something. Remember the it was the all the pertinent info was on the last page.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: We heard. So That well, that was so

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Or am I thinking of cell towers?

[Unidentified Committee Member]: No. No. Oh, you're not out of chair. So that was in this case, the notice was provided at the end of a 130 page written application to the FCC. Mhmm. And so, hopefully, that's not like, we're asking for something different, is written in email, but, you know, I guess, we wouldn't want it on the last page. I and I'm super hesitant to get too deep in the weeds here and and really to rely on the department in terms of what should be

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: I mean, I think we've provided some good

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Yeah. Guidance. Yeah. Right. Because the form and the manner prescribed by the commissioner, will that apply to both what the customers get and what DPS kits and e nine one one board kits? Or does the form and manner only apply to what the customers get? Both. Great. Then you're right.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: They can they can require different things. And you can be you can even be clear about that.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. So for now, anyway, I I am comfortable when the commission comes in or saying about the customer's notice, what do you imagine this looking like? And here, I'm this is their area of expertise, I'm sure. I'm sure they have thoughts. We can see if that sounds good to us. Okay.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Is there somewhere in this bill that says that they have to connect every existing customers they have to to fiber or to voice over Internet.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: They have to And at their expense. They're regulated utility. They have to

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: provide some If somebody has a direct buried hole to house service, they're gonna have to put it in a conduit or direct buried conductor to the exchange boxes on the side of the wall. Yeah.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: I don't know if they have to do conduit, but, mean, I the conduit where they can fit it, then they probably

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: would do that, but they

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: might not be required to. I was Yeah.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: So I was thinking of the back in the days that in my early adulthood where it was common to just direct vary VR from the surface. So there's that's covered because of the statue that they're the character of Yep. Ladroids, and we don't have to put anything in here to assure the disconnection that it made.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: I don't believe so. I think Dara would be able to confirm the protection.

[Rep. Michael "Mike" Southworth (Member)]: And say maybe we can ask for clarification on that because that conduit issue is an issue for people because it's an expense and video may not wanna take that expense on, so it would be on the owner. And that's something I just want clarification on as well.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Or if the technology becomes that they can make a inversion from voice over analog assist Oh, we can just listening pair per se, a copper pair. So they use the customer's existing line from the last point of last convenient point. It is way too comfortable from some of these lines. Well, you when I went to a voice over Internet, I didn't change all the telephone wires in my house. Still the

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Mhmm.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: Four four wire line that comes from the box on the outside walls into my phone around the frame. So I could do extend that back out to the Yeah.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Let's see. So so back to the notification packet to customers. So we've got a list here of things we wanna make sure the customers are notified about three times. So the date, details, instructions, disclosures. I think this might get to what you're talking about, Rutland. Disclosures about the carrier's existing obligation to provide regulated landline voice service to all residential customers.

[Rep. Christopher Howland (Member)]: For pay, do you

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: want something

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: to information

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: on the availability of backup power options, consumer protection rules, contact info for Kathy, any other disclosures deemed necessary and appropriate. I wondered about baby discounts and programs for low income. Vermonters. Okay. And then now we're moving into a different section where we're talking about reporting. So we've got a report, an annual we're standing up a new annual report on VoIP providers, about battery backup and the cost. We've got some enforcement. I know that had been one of, rep Southworth's questions. What are the remedies authorized by this

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: title? So the penalties, the civil penalties, it depends, I think, on the severity, like, if there's substantial harm. But I think up to $40,000 if there's no severe or substantial harm. Otherwise, I think it's, like, up to $80,000. That's a those are I believe those are the civil penalties. And then the PUC just has injunctive authority to require a provider to do something or restraint from doing something. That's the injunctive. Okay.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Then we have some monitoring with DPS reviewing outage reports to determine if there are areas of the state that are particularly prone to outages. And see what services they have access to. Then at the bottom of page five, we have a consumer education initiative designed to ensure that customers impacted by this transition are aware of their rights and the carriers' obligations. Mhmm. Aware of the risks that also gets to, I think, what you were talking about, Rippelling, and best practices concerning emergency preparedness. And then a one time report on how this is going and whether we should establish a program to help low income customers install backup power equipment, or when did the state should do that? Mhmm. So I feel like I like I marked places where we wanna ask questions. I feel like we've got the right witnesses coming in.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: I'm it's gonna be a question about technology. Battery technology is changing probably fairly quickly. Perhaps the power requirements of the O and Ts is evolving as well. Do that. So maybe also an option to see to have a small solar panel that powers the battery like you see on roadsides. I'm just thinking about other possible technology solutions that we might wanna hear about and or we might wanna get might wanna include in the annual report yesterday or work from MBS.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: So one this one's a one time.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: No. Actually, it's an it's an annual report. It's part of the general annual report that the department files every year. But just with respect to those two things that were specifically the low income or additional benefit power obligations, that's only in the 2027 report. Would

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: that be a place to add this?

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Maybe. I I I'd like I gotta like to hear about the testimony. And and and since this this is a pretty rapidly evolving industry, think it seems like it would be good to hear about it

[Unidentified Committee Member]: annually.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: About?

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Well, about about so battery technology for so as as battery technology improves, would the threshold outage coverage

[Unidentified Committee Member]: be longer? You know, maybe maybe

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Oh, so you want that in the report? Yes. Just an evaluation of what the Yes. What the batteries do the thing.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: So maybe in five years, we'll have batteries in the last week.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Okay. So just part of the report?

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yeah. Yeah. And and because then it would trigger Yeah. Legislation to to

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: And that should

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: go in court requirements.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: The annual that should be

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: called. Maybe

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: added to the annual report, not just the 2027.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Yes.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: Okay. Yep.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thank Thank Ashley. Kind of brace. So Well, it's a very evolving technology. Yeah.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: We were hearing earlier testimony to see that battery bring our own battery technology with utilities is kinda expanding, even the small co ops are gonna be out there. So, I mean, there could be people who already have the full cost of coffee. Well,

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: I mean, yes. Maybe

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: I mean

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: One one of the things that you're getting in a large battery like that, one of the things you have to decide is, well, what am I gonna back up? Gonna put the refrigerator on a spiral or whatever. So Casey, I'll pack up the whole house.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: K. Alex, could you please send this draft to Hunter and Jim Porter at DPS, Our 9911 has an outdated draft.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Yeah. I sent them to all the

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: witnesses, actually. Great. This most This most recent one. Oh, they're

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: why

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: why would I even need to mention this? Great. Yeah. Just make sure everybody who's coming in has this latest and greatest. Great. Alright. Thank you. You're welcome. So we'll maybe try to wrap up testimony on this next week.

[Maria Royal (Legislative Counsel)]: Committee bills. Actually, not that you wouldn't wanna get it before it crossover anyway, but there is a deadline of March 31. To get mini pills. Introduced. Introduced.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: On the floor. Okay. But then But we're trying to Then they miss crossover. Right. That's what you meant. Okay. Gotcha. Probably so. So, like in the first year, we're by hitting him. Okay.

[Rep. R. Scott Campbell (Vice Chair)]: Okay.

[Rep. Kathleen James (Chair)]: But this year, that's different. Okay. Great. Thanks, everybody. Why don't we take a five minute break? We can go offline.