Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: You're live. South education on May 7. The committee is now going to get some testimony on just a small section of s three thirteen. I would say that it's not crucial testimony in that we are not proposing to do anything other than ask the agency of education to provide recommendations on how we sort of marry the fact that we've moved from the high school completion program to the adult diploma program, which is complicated access to CTE for secondary age students that are in the adult diploma program previously in the high school completion program. Anyway, I think this is just an opportunity for the two of you to kind of talk about the legal issues behind it and sort of if you believe that between now and January something could be worked out or not, if if you feel very clear about the legal issues behind it. But, anyway, I just thought it would be important for the committee to hear a little bit more about it. I'll just say that what we have done in our proposal for amendment on 03/13 is to essentially get rid of the task force that was tasked with this job and move that into the work of the AOE in its list of recommendations to come back to the general assembly with. So that's sort of the context of all of this. Anyway, we look forward to the two of you helping us understand this issue a little better.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Thank you so much. For the record, Emily Simmons, general counsel at AOE. Mr. Chair, thanks for orienting me to the needs of the committee. That's really helpful. And it might make this pretty short. So we've, in the last few moments, submitted some written testimony for today. So I I think that's gonna represent information that the committee has already gone over. But, again, Robin is here and would be the best person to walk you through that written testimony. I really like to cut to the chase, so and the risk of being a little too bold. I think what you need to hear from me is this. We do have state law. I think the committee has looked at it. Section fifteen fifty one a that appears to entitle a student in any sense who does not have an diploma to enroll in CTE and have their district support that enrollment with funding. However, the adult diploma program relies on WIOA funding and a state match, and so to appropriately use that federal funding, have to follow WIOA rules. And I think also as the committee is aware, there is a WIOA eligibility rule which limits eligible individuals to those who are not enrolled in postsecondary education, and so we do have sort of a conflict between our state law at fifteen fifty one a and this WIOA rule. So in using these federal funds, this federal rule has to take precedence for this use of funds. Right? We could structure the program in a different way, use only state funds like high school completion did, and not be beholden to these federal rules. But as the program is set up today, we do have to follow the rule that a student is ineligible for the adult diploma program, those WIOA funded activities, if they are enrolled in postsecondary education, which includes CTE programming. I went back and really examined this issue carefully with our staff and with Ruth Durkey on the CTE and Perkins side. And the Perkins definition of enrollment is a student who is accessing two hours or more CTE courses a day, and so the agency uses that two hour rule for enrollment definition across many aspects of CTE, so we're also applying that rule here. I think that might be new information in the conversation. So and that you're asking us to examine this further, come back to you with any recommendations. If there is some room to work here, I think it's within that two hour allowance. I think questions that cannot be resolved today or what value is there, what value can we find in two hours per student per day that is not already covered by the work expected of our AEL providers with the funding they're already getting, weighing in one way or another on those questions. That's something that we're going to look into.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I'm just pausing here and looking through some of the testimony that you provided. But Robin, go ahead if you have more to add to this.

[Robin Castle, State Director of Adult Education and Literacy, Vermont Agency of Education]: Thank you. My name is Robin Castle. I'm State Director of Adult Education and Literacy with the Agency of Education. I really appreciate this opportunity to answer your questions here today. So I do want to talk a little bit about the High School Completion Program just to explain the difference between that and the Adult Diploma Program very briefly. The High School Completion Program was a reimbursement program that was a district program. So those were not grant funds. And the High School Completion Program also allowed co enrollment in secondary education and high school completion program. Those students who were co enrolled in school and CTE centers are, as you know, providing secondary education in our schools. For those students, we did not report them on our federal reports. We did not use federal funds to support their services. They were receiving the high school completion program services. The difference is that now all of the money that the AEL providers are receiving to provide services is through the federal and state grant funds. And our state grant funds, which is through the which is for the Adult Diploma Program, among other services, is also used as matching the federal funds, and therefore need to follow all of the federal rules. In Section nine forty five, which is the Adult Credential Program that includes the Adult Diploma Program, that is also aligned now with eligibility in federal law. And that's, I want to say, is a good thing because it also makes very clear the purpose of the AEL program is to serve those who are not enrolled in secondary education. Makes clear the role of AEL providers and the services that they provide. And I'm happy to answer any questions you might have.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: How much are we talking about with federal dollars? Just wondering sort of not following the rules puts federal dollars in jeopardy, and we're talking about a small amount, that's all I'm curious about.

[Robin Castle, State Director of Adult Education and Literacy, Vermont Agency of Education]: Sure. So

[Unidentified Participant]: I think this we would need time to think about the implications of that and the amount of money.

[Robin Castle, State Director of Adult Education and Literacy, Vermont Agency of Education]: I can say that the state receives about a million dollars each year in federal money to for the AEL program. It would the implications for this would depend on when the law changed, and we need time to work through that. But basically, there's a maintenance of effort clause in the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act in Title II, which is the AEL program. And that maintenance of effort clause says that our fiscal effort, the state's fiscal effort cannot decrease by more than 10% each year. So, it would depend on the amount of state grant match money that we reported for a fiscal year, and in the following year, would that amount be reduced because we had set aside a certain amount of state grant money not to use as match. So, we would have to work through those numbers to know how much and and to avoid penalties and a violation of federal law. Does does that answer your question?

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, I think so. Appreciate that. Could we talk about maybe having you walk through the last paragraph of the testimony? I guess I'll just read it. With the repeal of the high school completion program, education funds previously allocated for the reimbursement program were shifted to the AEL state grant program. By shifting funds to a grant program, eligibility requirements for the ADP came into alignment with federal law that mandates that AEL program functions to serve those who are not enrolled in secondary school and who are at least 16 years of age. So that is to say, so the previous funding for high school completion is sort of converted into supporting adult diploma program, is that correct?

[Robin Castle, State Director of Adult Education and Literacy, Vermont Agency of Education]: Yes, as grant money now. And previously it was a reimbursement program, it was not grant money and we did not use any of the reimbursement money under high school completion program to match our federal grant because it was not grant money.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And the grant money is the same money that is now allocated to the AEL providers based on whatever criteria we last came up with?

[Robin Castle, State Director of Adult Education and Literacy, Vermont Agency of Education]: Well, it's not the same amount, but if you look at it, the idea I think is that we used to have some education fund money that supported high school completion program, we don't have that program anymore, it was repealed, now and we do have some education fund money and general fund money that supports the adult diploma program and all of the other programs in section nine forty five, and it's all grant money now.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Can I assume that you do not have any objection to us adding to the list of tasks for the AOE to come up with recommendations for, adding this conundrum to that, even if your recommendation is status quo?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: That's right. That's right. Yes, we support you including that language. We would also look at any changes to the program or the program as it exists now as what's best overall for the student population within online to retaining students in high school. Robin always reminds me, need to be careful to look at whether we're accidentally creating incentives for students to unenroll from high school when otherwise that would be the best place where they could get the most services and complete their education and get their diploma. I don't wanna inadvertently create this really attractive path that has students unenrolling from high school at a young age.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah, thank you for saying that that's been one of my concerns, but also pointing out the fact that if a student wants CTE education, they can still get it. It's just not gonna be through an AEL provider that just has remained enrolled in high school.

[Unidentified Participant]: Yes.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Right. Any other I realize this is a technical issue, we're not gonna solve in the last couple of weeks here. Any other questions from the committee or need for more information?

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: Any sense how often this comes up?

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: So we or maybe just I had heard that this is we're talking about maybe a half a dozen kids across all the AEL kids, adult education, young adults across the state. Does that sound about right? I'm getting a nod from the lobbies for the AEL providers.

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: And that's a number that they've identified and they work with that population, that's what the grant funds are for. So no reason to second guess them on that estimate.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: And what's the age rate or age cutoff for secondary CTE?

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Not any.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Thought that, well, I guess-

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Maybe at least six.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: You have to be enrolled in a high school in order to participate. So-

[Emily Simmons, General Counsel, Vermont Agency of Education]: Sorry, thought you meant upper limit. There's no upper limit, the lower limit is 16.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: There's no upper limit to be enrolled in high school. So therefore there's no upper limit to be enrolled in CTE. Okay, I appreciate that, that actually makes sense. All right, everybody, if there are no other questions, we'll thank our guests this morning and thank you both very much.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Thank you.

[Robin Castle, State Director of Adult Education and Literacy, Vermont Agency of Education]: Thank you.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: All right, so agenda, a little bit adjusted. As I've said repeatedly, we are at a time of the session where we're gonna have big gaps, and so we are now gap until the house floor. So use your time productively, productively includes Leanne communicating with the folks at least.

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: I've already said we didn't hear about community school.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Oh, yes. You, two of you feel like talking to us a little bit about what you learned on Friday?

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: Sure, I think I even still have the folder. Back before TBA, do you

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: think we're feeling good for anything? No, don't know yet. There's nothing really. Unless you hear otherwise. Unless something goes awry in ways and means that you wanna hear about it? So Representative Brown, Representative Brady, went to the community schools conference on Friday, and I assume got a lot out of it. Yeah, and

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: so just a reminder, this whole community schools initiative, which is a national, it's not movement, it's Model. Model, but sure, of more integrated supports in schools and more strong collaboration with the community. And there are five pillars that it is all built upon. We started as a state, we passed Vermont Act 67 in 2021 in the pandemic years using $10,000,000 of some of the federal OZID funds to start the program, to create a competitive grant program in Vermont to stand up the model and support the model. So there was a cohort of five or six schools that were in that first tranche, and now they are in cohort two. And those schools get quite a bit of technical support. They work closely with the agency. And I've done a wide variety of things. It's not like a one size fits all. Pillar, what I don't have right in front me, but I want to touch on that. That was pillars. I know. They're that little gear. I will say, I leaned over, I think, to a couple of different people during the day. And I was like, we could maybe just stop obsessing about what's the mission and vision of education in Vermont. This is me editorializing you. And it's the pillars of community schools because we're such a community based state. I think that's such an ethos of many of brought into in this committee with all of our work related to Addison. Me, the pillars are what are happening in a lot of schools anyway, certainly what I experienced as a teacher. And so to me, this is a forward hopeful vision for Vermont schools in a lot of ways. And it has led to really amazing work happening in a lot of different schools and communities and return on investment in ways of leveraging different funds, bringing different state agencies and fundings together in new and unique ways that are so good for kids and good for communities. Mean, the things that people are doing within the community, the biggest piece is that there's a community school support maker that is dedicated to the children in a building that is helping make all these connections. There's a lot of stuff and resources out there, but often things just aren't connected. And so these community schools coordinators really help bridge that gap. But they're doing everything from seniors in to do literacy tutoring to meal programs to I think it was U32 did a whole series of evening classes that were put on by both students and community members on different topics, like bike maintenance. But it felt many purposes in that it brought people in the community together. It gave students some experience, job experience, some leadership experience that they can use on a resume and having led these kind of workshops. They had to do a lot of the work in organizing it. So really very real world skills, but connecting to the community. And it was hosted at UBM. I think what was great to see is that So we had 10,000,000 originally. That has led to two cohorts. We have not added any more state funding. Added a bit more two years ago, three years ago, like a million dollars. But the state funding has essentially ended there, we don't have, again, editorializing, I think it's unfortunate we don't have a clear commitment to it because it's clear a ton of amazing work is happening and good things are happening in schools and communities. When we don't have consistency of funding, and we've heard a lot from the field about this, but we can end up wasting money because then all this good work has happened and there isn't the money to follow through on it. It was fortuitous in that Senator Sanders was able to get a federal earmark and directed it through, took a lot of work, but ended up directing that through EM to continue some of this work. So there has been some continued financial support. Of course, federal earmarks are one time things as well. So we face the same challenges in terms of the predictability of the funding to continue the work. They are continuing to seek was most struck, I think, by the overlap with health care and how much is happening in terms of working within that, like bringing health care providers into schools, not saying school budgets are paying for health care providers, but it's a physical space where those connections can happen. And UVM is doing some great work, I think, in reaching across Vermont, getting out of the Burlington area and sending social work and social worker interns into schools for a year to do intensive internships and be able to provide services to students. They're doing some more with some of their family practice clinics and having interns and future doctors working in, starting to work in some of the rural communities that Ben might have an interest also in staying in rural communities. So there's a real kind of healthcare overlap that I think is emerging in a lot of the work. I left thinking, again, great reminder of all the amazing things happening in schools And we often just get so enamored with the negatives that we forget really what's happening and narratives matter. The way we think and talk about schools really matters. But this sort of undercurrent of thriving schools lead to thriving communities and thriving communities lead to thriving schools. This interconnection was shown in so many different ways and the importance of funding sustainability and what we lose when we do lots of new initiatives, fund nonstop, don't see things through, a perennial challenge, I think, and part of the challenge of being a part time citizen legislature.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: As the funding dwindles, was there a discussion about how many districts that are currently within the cohorts are taking off the work, just putting the budget?

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: We didn't get into that in detail, I would say. Yeah. But we could definitely ask those five schools, like the five initial public schools, how are they sort of transitioning away from Want to answer that?

[Unidentified Participant]: I

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: don't know why I'm putting you on the spot, but if you feel like answering that, you'd fine.

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: So we were talking

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: about community schools with Virginia Elementary being one of the originals as the sort of funding for community schools from your initial grant dwindles. Is your school district sort of absorbing those costs?

[Unidentified Participant]: It's best we can.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: Yeah. Have you had to leave parts of the initiatives behind as a result or not yet?

[Unidentified Participant]: Not yet. Mean, we've been, I don't want see the books, but just trying to figure out how we can do more with less and keep the same things, so do we restructure it so somebody's doing part of that or we're splitting it up, so we're just trying to hold it all together in ways that still make sense and is helpful, but obviously more money becomes more. You do as much as can, but yeah, it's an important aspect of what's built into the culture and the marketing as much as possible.

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: Well, could have Tony scan these and we could email them out to the committee. There is a whole page of recommendations that go Recommendations for us, policy recommendations, state level recommendations, and then kind of a helpful chunk around data infrastructure. Like how do we collect data? And then there's something about integrating How can we at the state level work to integrate multiple funding sources across state agencies so that we can sustain this work? Rosie Krueger was there. Was, I think, excited to hear that so many schools are doing community meal based and just doing a lot of food insecurity work, but it was definitely clear to her, I think, that not everyone is necessarily aware of where they can go to access funding that is available. So it just needs to be a lot more information sharing. Things can be Yeah, were folks in the Vermont Department of Mental Health, there were Agency of Education, and there's continued to be silos just in state government, I think, that are making things challenging, and that was, you know, everybody was a coalition of the willing, they're believing and wanting to do good things for kids and communities. But clearly still a lot of work to do to break down some silos and get a little bit more collaboration.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Question about the funding piece. Don't want to lose the good work that's been done in this state or lack of funding. And was there any thought, as you were having these conversations and sitting at this conference, about how a CISA might help support both of I

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: thought of that. I almost asked, in one of those open question things, but I didn't know if that would be too But much in the potentially, you could see some, like, could you have maybe a community schools coordinator at a CSO level? I think it depends on the community areas and the things that you're trying to integrate. But yeah, wondered. I

[Unidentified Committee Member]: wasn't here in this committee. I was here. I wasn't in this committee when the law was passed, and it was turning when But I this is a really powerful movement. It seemed to me at the time when we passed the law, and it remains that way. And and as time has gone since 2021, it seems very short period of time, but a lot has changed. And the decline in enrollment and the fact that this is really focused on rural schools, and I wanna say rural schools meaning every school in Vermont, essentially, I think. I'm not trying to say it's only the most rural schools. It's pretty much could have an impact on all of our schools in Vermont. It just feels really important to me that we elevate this law that we passed and the initiatives within it now quickly, because we are in transformation, and this is a great direction, and the needs are growing.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I see CISA is playing a role at a very basic level, transportation. Sure, I mean- You just think about a coordinated fleet of vans to get kids to CTE because they can't go there or doing what needs to be done, but in a more coordinated fashion.

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: And that is like in North Country, like having, I don't know that they use the community schools grant for the bands, the community schools coordinator uses. I mean, they move kids all over some pretty far distances to get middle schoolers from all these different schools together to get youth councils stood up, up, is critical for a lot of great things they're doing, actually reaching kids. And I'd add on to that, the connection to community is what's going to succeed. That's going to

[Unidentified Committee Member]: have our schools succeed. Right now, there's more and more challenge around this conversation, around transformation without community support. And we heard this very clearly after Act 73 passed, and Vermonter started reaching out and having a say and feeling very strongly. And was sitting as a school board member, right now the need for communication with the community is growing. And so this connection of community schools, I just think it's really exciting. And I'm really glad that the two of you went to this conference. Going Yeah, to go

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: it's Friday. Oh, three of you.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: Sorry, I didn't know you were

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: doing that.

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: I think you had a very busy

[Unidentified Committee Member]: day that day, so I'm impressed that you went. Thank you for going. But I just think it's really critical we need to keep this conversation alive.

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: Just again, this is being undergeneralizing, but reminder, really a lot of very dynamic, incredibly motivated, passionate education leaders and teachers and school nurses around the state. I mean, if you want to have your bucket filled that the sky is not falling and there's a lot of really good stuff happening, holy cow, the things that people are pulling together, putting on, the principles that are driving food to kids' houses in the evenings. The bus driver that brought students from Houston stood up and spoke. It was really powerful. So there is a lot of good work happening, and people are working really hard in schools and doing innovative things to keep kids engaged in school and to get communities. It is such a yeah, it's in the title, but community. It's about community. So it was for me, okay, this is sort of the idea of regional middle and high schools, but this more of this sort of breaking down school isn't just eight to two reading, writing, and arithmetic, but also and it doesn't mean it has to be in school budgets, but it also can be so many community supports, connections, opportunities, new things, different things, and different uses of buildings.

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: I find that all in a way a little bit discouraging because what you're really saying is schools are really stepping up in great innovative ways to fix the ills of society that aren't any of their fault.

[Erin Brady (Ranking Member)]: Yes, basic things. That's so important.

[Unidentified Committee Member]: I mean, we need to be able to say, we can be a resource, what does the community need, what do the kids need to be educated in this community? And I think community stepping up in that way might change some of the underlying laws and focus. You for being

[Peter Conlon (Chair)]: on report, Benav.