Vermont Legislature SmartTranscripts:

[Chair Peter Conlon]: You're live. This is House Education on 04/29/2026. The Education Committee is taking a look at S three thirteen. This is the bill. They're studying governance and other parts of Career and Technical Education Centers across Vermont as we sort of prepare for a future state with education funding and education governance. We are inviting to offer some testimony this morning, the head of the Vermont Association of Career and Technical Directors. Eric, welcome. Glad you came to join us and looking forward to your input and your availability for some Q and A on the bill afterward.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Great. Thank you all very much. So I'll launch in. Good morning and thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. For the record, name is Eric Remmers. I'm the director at Green Mountain Technology and Career Center in Hyde Park. This year, I'm serving as the president of the Vermont Association of Career and Technical Education Directors or VACDED. On behalf of VACDED, I wanna express our support for the direction of s three thirteen and the work that has gone into the current draft. I also wanna be clear at the outset, this bill is not about maintaining the current system as it is. From our perspective, it's about positioning CTE to move toward a more integrated student centered model while making sure we preserve the program, quality, and outcomes that are already working for students in Vermont. There are a few elements in the current draft we see as important steps in that direction. Expanding access while recognizing that placement needs to align with a student's program of study and meet program requirements, including sequencing and safety, and beginning to bring greater clarity to how those expectations are applied across our system. Preserving program specific expectations that are critical and technical and safety driven environments, framing transportation as a systems level issue that needs coordinated support, and strengthening the recognition of CTE credits towards graduation requirements. I think it's important to connect those pieces to the broader conversation that's happening right now. Many of the larger changes being discussed, whether that's more integrated delivery models or comprehensive high schools, depend on having alignment around access, transportation, admissions and program expectations. Without those pieces in place, it becomes very difficult to implement larger structural changes successfully. This bill begins to put that foundation in place. From our perspective, there are still important unknowns, particularly around funding, governance, and system design. This bill allows us to move forward on key pieces while those larger questions are being worked through. From a director standpoint, what matters most is that expanded access results in successful placement. When students are in programs that are a good fit, where they meet readiness expectations and can follow the program sequence, they succeed, complete and move on to employment or further education. As this moves forward, the key will be how concepts like viable alternative are interpreted in practice, making sure that placement is not just available, but appropriate and feasible for students. And for this to work in practice, the guidance phase will be critical, particularly in clarifying expectations around placement, transportation and maintaining program quality across different delivery models. We appreciate the committee's work on this and would encourage you to continue moving the bill forward with a focus on how it positions the system for the next phase of work. Thank you, and I'm happy to take any questions from here.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Great. Thanks, Eric. I kind of look at this bill as having three main sections or the three main parts. One is there's a lot of intent language, which is, you know, sort of to set our our goals and aspirations. Second is asking the agency to offer a number of recommendations to the general assembly. And there's a it's a fair it's a fairly large ask. And then there's the working group of legislators charged with, would say, solving governance and some other issues in the meantime while we are also trying to figure out governance on a statewide scale for all education. Sure. Your testimony doesn't really touch on that third part and didn't know if you had any input on that as well. So specifically about

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: work group essentially and where that's taking us.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Yeah. You know, that I think was added in a later iteration of the bill. And I think that think that piece has been I think this this bill in and of itself is a bridge. A bridge to wherever it is that this entire system is going. And I recognize that h nine to five five is is creating a lot of that piece. But there also needs to be, I think, a piece that is specifically focused on CTE and how that all connects together. So I think that having a work group that is specifically digging into details related to CTE, whether that be state board rule. We talked a lot about state board rule and how that could be supported, which it then sort of evolved into AOE guidance so that state board rule isn't opened up too early in this whole process. But I I I think that that there needs to be an ongoing sort of group of folks that are looking at where the broader system is going and how CTE connects to that so that they're not happening on separate tracks and in different directions. And I think some of the conversation up to this point has had both the broader educational system and CTE going on different tracks. And that's what we don't wanna have happen because we need this point, CTE has had to meet and fit with the broader system, whether we're talking about funding, whether we're talking about educational access and things like that. So I guess to me that is just about having some folks that are specifically looking out for CTE and that it's well supported in the broader system.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Figuring out governance of CTE has been discussed for a long time. No one's really been able to coalesce around anything. We've got three, four different styles of governance. We were only able to come up with three as we were going through them. I guess there's some skepticism being raised that this is a working group to address this issue while at the same time we are having really much bigger discussions about how to integrate all pieces of education together. I would agree much of this is a bridge. I'm just wondering if this working group is trying to bridge something prematurely that will be part of a larger discussion.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: I I'm I'm that that very well may be the case. I, you know, I think that this working group would likely have to look at all models, not only the the four working models of district and operations for CTE that currently is in place, but also looking at the single ESA districting model again and and and what that all looks like, because that would all have to work well within the broader scope of education in the state. And that's where do think it's important for folks to really be thinking about those things alone and not let CTE get lost in a much bigger conversation. And that's what tends to happen sometimes with CTE. Fully believe we're absolutely critical to this system and our students and the state and all of that, but we're also relatively small. And so we can kind of get lost in the conversation. And so having a group of people who are really evaluating what makes the most sense for CTE in the context of the broader scheme of things, I think is important.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. I will say, there has definitely been, over the past ten plus years, I would say a renewed strong emphasis on making sure CTE is well considered in any future discussions. Absolutely. Yeah. Have small question. Okay. The four governance models, he came up with three. They've got private school, independently governed but public, part of just part of a regular old high school or a a Supervisory union. Yeah. Yeah. Or yeah. School district budget. And but we could come up with the fourth.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: So that would be what would be the current comprehensive high school model. So for instance, Missisquoi Valley Union has an ag program there. They may have two programs. I'm not entirely sure. But those are CTE programs, and they follow state and federal CTE requirements. So and I I think, believe, is the other model for that as well. So yeah. So you have the you have the public private. You've got the independent district. You have the members of a supervisor union, then you have the comprehensive.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Yep, alright. Kate? Alright, I've been asking all the questions. Anybody else have a follow-up?

[Rep. Beth Quimby]: Yesterday we had some questions about what exactly the reinforcement intervention pathway is. A little more clarity around that Maybe would be

[Chair Peter Conlon]: some language questions. Yeah,

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this came from very rich a very preliminary VACTED priority document that we issued very early on in the session. And and simply what we were kind of ideating there was could there be some something or someone that supports CTE and high schools in partnering and understanding basic CTE rule statute and regulation. Essentially, revolving around what ends up happening in a lot of spaces is that there is conflict and disagreement over interpretation around rule. And could there be someone or some sort of body that or person that or position that could be the step that happens before things are escalated to the AOE level in some sort of, like, punitive or something manner. We're finding that across our regions, we have very sort of mixed relationships with regional sending high schools. And a lot of that has to do with understanding around CTE purpose, CTE rule, policy, and all of those sorts of things. And being able to sit down, not in a here's the rule, you need to follow type of way, but let's come together, let's learn and let's figure out how we can best support students, I think would reduce some tensions between some of our regional sending high schools and CTE centers. Because there are places that are sticking points. We recognize that there continues to be work to be done to make sure admissions requirements and things like that with CTE are more consistent across the state. I think that's part of improving access. There are places like what is addressed in this bill around recognition of graduation requirements and credits and things of that nature being transferred back to sending schools. So that not having those credits awarded is not a barrier to students going to CTE. And I think that while the agency itself has really been a support in many ways, the CTE end of the agency is also about state and federal oversight and making sure that everybody is in compliance. And what we sort of ideated was could there be a mid step where there is someone or something that is outside of the immediate heated relationship of that regional CTE center and its sending high school, that could help facilitate more understanding about what, you know, policy and practices around CTE so that it does not have to escalate to some of the levels that they have in the past.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Thank you. Great. And again, that falls sort of in the section of asking the AOE to come up with recommendations for addressing that. We also had a question, there were some questions on grade level competency standards for students in pre kindergarten through grade 12 related to career exploration and planning that are designed to ensure that each student develops the knowledge, skills, and experiences necessary to graduate with a clear, actionable, and adaptable plan for career and educational next steps. I think where we sort of got hung up was what are grade level competency standards? I don't know if this was language that you guys came up with or this is agency stuff.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: That was not ours. What it sounds like to me is very similar to what is outlined in the ed quality standards and in act 77 in relation to career exploration. And I think what they're trying to do is make that a little more intentional that so that CTE has a much firmer foot in the door at those grade levels, at the lower grade levels, so that school counselors, teachers, curriculum, that there's more CTE career focused curriculum embedded in in what's happening there. Whether that would show up in, you know, statewide proficiency standards or things like that, I I I do not know. But that's what it sounds like to me.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: One thing that I often notice is that in so many things in education, transportation is kind of a a key factor. Where within the CTE world are we falling short, and how do we correct that?

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Great question. And I think that is the topic of a lot of conversation, both in committees and amongst the CTE directors. So I think what is happening here is specifically in relation to student access to CTE centers across different regional districts. So the the the the the story essentially is that that we have centers across our state that go on to wait lists for very popular programs, and there are centers other centers in our district or in our state that don't have those wait lists, that have openings. And the question is, how do we ensure that students who are not able to access programs that are on waitlist, how do they get to those other centers? Right now in state board rule, students are allowed to access other centers. If they're if they're that program of interest is on a wait list and another district has that program, there is a mechanism by which they can go to that center. And right now, transportation to that other center is on the student themselves, the student and the families. So, you know, I am speaking as a director who has experienced this, you know, are I have had a number of students from other regional districts that have chosen to drive to us. But there are also backdoor mechanisms that many of us as directors have figured out to get kids who want to come to some of our programs that aren't offered in those places. You know, so in for instance, my district it borders both Central Vermont Regional Tech District and the North Country Regional Tech District. I've had students from both come to our school. Some have driven to us. Some have I'm thinking of one student this year right now who is engaged in our Ag program who gets a ride to one of our bus stops on the very northern end of our district and then is able to hop the bus and then come to our school and go from there. We've done those things sort of like, you know, wheeling and dealing to get those things done. But there, I think, has been a broader concern about what happens when kids don't have easy access to buck stops, when they don't have a car or someone who can drive them to a space. How do we ensure that those students have the capacity to go to another district if they have met admissions requirements for that program? And some one or two of our our CTE centers have in have chosen to invest in vans and things like that and hire people to send vans out to pick up students in other areas. But the vast majority of our centers do not have a transportation budget because transportation is not currently a part of career technical education responsibility. It is the regional sending districts that, you know, have that that transport students to our center. So this piece is really about what happens when there is a kid who has no means to get to another district, but wants to be in another district, has met the program requirements of that other district. How do we get them there when there's no other means to be there? And I think the previous committee said that, you know, if we're gonna do that, then we're gonna have to figure out a funding mechanism for how that happens, and that's the discussion, essentially.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah, I mean, the solution basically is it takes money to provide transportation. Correct. Yeah, and then I'm in Addison County, and your description of the situation is exactly what we have, and a well under enrolled CTE, blanked on either side by CTEs with wait lists. Right. Yeah. Unfortunately, none of that changes the actual geography of distance and time.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: It doesn't, and so there really is a self selection process that will happen with students and their interest as to the distance that they have to travel or the time that they have to travel to go from wherever they live to another center. But I believe the intent of the folks who articulated this in the bill is to ensure that if there is a student that does want that sort of access, somehow it is available to them.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Yeah. Really, the bill talks a bit about investigating or making recommendations on is embedding more CTE in home high schools, and that has always created a tension.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Yeah, for sure.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: And I guess, do you have thoughts on how that ultimately gets resolved? In many ways, it comes down to transportation. Kids don't wanna spend half their day going back and forth when they could potentially get some technical education within their high school.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Yeah, I mean, think one of the things to remember about CTE is that the outcomes that we have, which are pretty strong outcomes across the state when it comes to career and technical education, is that those outcomes come from depth, not just availability. And so I think the system needs to ensure that if there are going to be programs that are operating at sending high schools, that they are operating at a depth that allows students to advance into industry credentialing and that they have the appropriate safety credentialing and that they, you know, in some cases have the infrastructure to be able to do what, you know, CTE is able to do. I don't think we oppose those sorts of expansions happening, But, you know, we want to make sure that, you know, when we talk about what we do and say my electrical program or in our construction program or things of that nature, that, you know, students are getting access to the sort of the equipment, the facilities, the instruction that are specifically tailored to students advancing their understanding towards an industry credential of value that will allow them to walk into the field and be ready to engage in career and or college. So there are some, I think, investments that high schools would have to make. And then there are some obligations that I think they would have to think about in terms of federal labor law and, you know, some of the oversight via Perkins and things of that nature that is required of career and technical education. So, you know, by no means opposed. And, you know, I think in regional CTE deserts that some of the other committees have talked about, I think that that that it can totally make sense. But I I would strongly stress that that that the depth needs to be there for for students and to have those opportunities in those spaces.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Representative McCann.

[Rep. Kate McCann]: I hear what you're saying about death, but I also, when I read this bill, I think about expanded opportunities for kids and they're pretty young when they're starting to make these decisions. And I'm wondering if you had an engineering class that ran for ninth or tenth graders, it's not gonna have the depth of an engineering program at a CTE, but it's gonna open the door to do I like this stuff? Do I like playing with electricity? Do I like building things? So I think we should move in the direction of having some of this in our traditional high schools until we can get to a point where we can have more comprehensive regional high schools where the tech is right there. But I just think that they're making big choices at the time when they're applying as tenth graders. So anything that we can do for them in advance of that to help them make those decisions would be a benefit rather than

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Absolutely. I I I don't disagree with that at all. You know, when I'm when I'm talking about our programming, I'm talking and and this is sort of the the based on the framework of of my facility right now is that, you know, we are primarily focused. We do have a a tenth grade exploratory program, which exploratory of all of our programs. But, you know, when I'm talking about industry credentialing, college credits, that that sort of thing, I'm thinking about our heart our our core programming, which is 11 to 12 grade focus there. Absolutely. I think that having early engineering programs, things of that nature, creates a pipeline into a program like ours, which we also have an engineering program. There are mechanisms for that right now. You know, we do there there are pre tech foundations programs. I would say that across the state, you'll find those being offered through some of our more bigger CTE centers just because they have a little more resource wise personnel and physically. But if high schools themselves were to, you know, do some introductory courses and things of that nature, and that that can be tied to CTE in a way that all that creates and facilitates a strong pipeline to our our the core programming, I'm fully in support of that.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Other questions? Go ahead, Chase. Out of curiosity, you said there are wait lists for some of these programs. What programs are you seeing wait lists for?

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: You know, it varies regionally and in some cases it varies year to year. And so I I can I can speak for my center? We Green Mountain Tech would be considered a mid size program in the state or facility in the state. This year, we have about a 155, 160 students. And each year, it's a little bit different which programs are on wait lists from others. There are some that are more consistent. I would say that our allied health program is one that is consistently on a wait list. That said, three years ago, we only had five kids in the program, and that was a complete anomaly to us. We had no understanding of why that happened, but now, you know, we have a line out the door for that program. You know, thinking about where we are for admissions next year, we're on a wait list for our automotive program, we're on a wait list for our electrical program, We're on a wait list or we're close to a wait list for our forestry program, and we're almost full in in many of others like our creative media program, our engineering program, culinary, those things as well. We do see statewide trends around ups and downs in enrollments. Right now computer networking and design across the state, at the college level and at the high school CTE level has seen a bit of a drop in terms of enrollment and access. You know, and those are things, those are trends that we look at both locally and statewide as to why that's happening. So, you know, it it really it really does differ by the the region and the offerings of a region. So yeah.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: I'll describe to you the flip side. So in Addison County, the Career and Technical Education Center has lots and lots of open spaces. It is well under enrolled, and that's largely due to it has a defined catchment area, as all of them do. That catchment area has had declining enrollment overall of high school students. They're drawing from fewer and fewer, a pool of fewer and fewer students.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: And that creates attention with sending schools as well, particularly as we look at some of the provisions of Act 73 and class size. And as schools are beginning to assess what classes and courses they can run-in their home schools, You know, they worry about, you know, the students that they quote unquote lose to career and technical education. So, you know, all of these things sort of interconnect in in some way or another.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: They do, but ultimately come down to declining enrollment. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So if I wanna get into the automotive program that I'm wait listed, there's the possibility that I won't get into that program at all before I graduate. Is that my understanding that correctly? Yes.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: There's a chance. Yes. It depends on when that student has applied, and it also depends on the makeup of the center and its program. So for instance, Green Mountain Tech is a full day, full year program. So we have students with us for six hours a day within our programs. They get delivered academics. They do their programs. They earn multiple industry certifications, college credits, etcetera. So if a student were to enroll or to apply and be placed on a wait list for the automotive program in their junior year, they would be prioritized for their senior year. That looks a little bit different when we're talking about half day programs. It looks a little bit different for us if that student is implying as a twelfth grade student, you know, we are and that student has met all of our admissions requirements, we're likely going to prioritize that student as well. So it does come down to individual school policy and practice, but understanding that we are trying to give as many experiences to students as possible.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: And it's also law that if that student is on a wait list, but a nearby CTE has space, they can go there. But again, it comes down to transportation. Right. That's what I was gonna say. All

[Rep. Kate McCann]: right. Go ahead, Kate. One more question around governance and something that you said about the thought of a district seeing kids going to CTE as losing those kids to a CTE center. If the governance structure was such that the CTE was part of the district or part of the regional high school or whatever, would that do you think that that would change the thought if if all the kids were you part of the same know, then then you're not losing anyone to anyone. They're still

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: on the

[Rep. Kate McCann]: same campus. I

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: I I think that comes down to

[Chair Peter Conlon]: the

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: basic the basic discussion of what funding for CTE would look like, right? And so governance and funding at CTE really touch each other really closely. And so, you're absolutely right. If we had one integrated comprehensive high school that served all five sending schools, essentially. So so so the folks of the Lemoyle District, the People's Academy, the Stowe, the Crasberry, and the Hazen, like, all came to one regional comprehensive high school where career and technical education was embedded throughout through four years with, again, depth to have quality, then I don't there would not be an issue with funding. I don't they they would all be students of of of one district. You know, that could conceivably still happen if they went to larger regional districts or supervisory districts where, you know, those five schools were also the only five people that came to career to Green Mountain Tech. You know, I I I think that that then the funding that comes to that district, if they were all five schools in the same district would there wouldn't be as much sort of give and take in terms of of tuitioning and things of that nature. And then, you know, the the the bigger ESA model, what was initially proposed from the APA study, a year, year and a half ago, tried to get around that as well by pulling CTE into one district and then having one big mechanism for funding to come to that district so that there wasn't a space where tuition was given at all to career technical education. It came directly out of the Ed Fund. So like there are mechanisms to do that. Right now, our system is one in which that students are tuition to our center. And that has been a place that has caused some conflict in districts around our state. But yes, think that in a model where everybody came to one space where all of these things were offered in one space, again, so long as the quality and depth was there, I think it would make absolutely sense, absolute sense.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Representative Quimby? But on

[Rep. Beth Quimby]: what you said about, act 73 and class size minimums and what programs you can offer, I'm not sure that solves that issue because they would be losing the amount of the

[Chair Peter Conlon]: classroom perhaps. But one could make that argument though, if everybody's sort of within the same umbrella school district, it's just another class offering that competes with other class offerings. Right,

[Rep. Beth Quimby]: that may take care of

[Chair Peter Conlon]: that Which happens already within a high school, I'm sure. Right.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: And CTE itself has a different mechanism for ensuring class size and program offerings. And we have obligations related to Perkins around offering specific programs with a certain amount of students average enrollment per year.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: So you're operating a full day, full year CTE program.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Correct.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: And students are also able to access academic offerings that can help them fulfill their graduation requirements. Correct.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Yeah. Sure. Sure. And and again, that looks very different places and different centers. So we operate till so our students are with us from about 08:15 in the morning till 02:00 in the afternoon. The 02:00 does allow most of our students to go back to ascending school to take a fourth period class, but we do also offer an embedded English and basically a humanities class. So all of our programs multiple times a week go into this this humanities class that ensures that students are getting reading and writing instruction with some civics and history involved in there as well so that they can carry on graduation credits that way. We in our model, we also have hired through Perkins a math specialist whose job is to push into our programs and help to design math curriculum that's explicitly taught that's related to that program area or that career area. And so that's that's our design. Again, we are, what I would say, a a mid sized CTE center in the state. Some of our bigger centers, I'll I'll point to CTE Essex, you know, has the capacity to operate a full embedded high school in that space where, you know, they have multiple specific math offerings or English or history offerings and things of that nature. So you know, it really does depend on size and access to resources and things like that that impacts how students are engaging in the academic side of things in their programs.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: All right, any other questions? Eric, thanks for taking the time with us this morning.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: Sure, Benning, thank you all.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Have a great day.

[Eric Remmers, President of VACDED and Director, Green Mountain Technology and Career Center]: You too.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: All right, folks, let's just do a little agenda update so everybody is aware. We were going to work on 02:14 later, but just because of everybody's schedules, if we were to pass it out today, it would be on the floor Friday when half the committee's gonna be gone at a conference or for other reasons, including the presenter of the bill. So we're gonna go out on it tomorrow, so it would then be on the floor Tuesday. Yeah. So that leaves us with a break from now until the floor at one. So use your time constructively and pass along any thoughts you might have about upcoming days. Did you

[Rep. Kate McCann]: see the email I forwarded you from Hazen?

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Oh yes, yeah. They really suggested a date that was quite a bit later.

[Rep. Kate McCann]: That wasn't saying they could only do that,

[Chair Peter Conlon]: they were

[Rep. Kate McCann]: saying the community lunch was ending, so we want to not observe that. Right, that's fine.

[Chair Peter Conlon]: Right, we can talk about scheduling that offline. Okay, great.